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Ferrari: Arrivabene out?


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#201 Ramon69

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 18:55

Williams is special, just not as special.

Wrong. Williams is special only for the brits. That's about it.


Edited by Ramon69, 08 January 2019 - 18:56.


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#202 Lotusse7en

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 19:07

 I don't know, maybe Vettel just wasn't paying attention on his track walk in Germany.

Maybe just too many issues in the background . Things can go wrong when issues get in their heads . 

Just ask Lewis when Rosberg managed to do just that in 2016 



#203 P123

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 19:14

Interesting how Lewis rather slow start to the last season has been quickly forgotten.


The slow start where he led the championship post-Monaco, despite losing a victory through misfortune in Melbourne and took a grid penalty in Bahrain. That slow start? Granted, he picked it up a bit as the season wore on, and China was a particularly sluggish race although even then Merc could have salvaged it under the SC... failure to do so being the sort of thing that would get somebody hung, if they were dressed in red.

#204 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 19:26

Wrong. Williams is special only for the brits. That's about it.

The team with the second highest number of constructors championships is certainly special.

Ferrari are on another level entirely though. You can’t separate the sentimentality from the team. It’s part of the emotion that brings us to the sport in the first place.

#205 baddog

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 20:44

Not to detract from Arrivabene departing. But I don't know why everyone is getting so defensive when a negative light is made on Vettel. It isn't hate, the guy is a fabulous driver. But he made so many errors in 2018 he outdid all the good and made him look like a teenager learning the ropes. He bottled it when it needed to count. And that is what separates Hamilton from Vettel. Hamilton could tidy up the spills and bad races quicker. Vettel just shatters like glass and takes weeks for the glue to dry.

 

Regardless of Hamiltons consistently supreme driving shining above anyone else, Vettel made consistent mistakes binning chances where, at worse, had he just brought the car home may have actually got the title to the wire, heck maybe even a shot at it. It was no fault but his own. Suggests to me the car provided was doing its job.

 

What went on behind the scenes we may never know. But a driver with as high a reputation and paycheck as SV you almost expect team politics like those suggested of Arrivabene to be managed and not a problem. They were.

 

Does this say more about Arrivabene being toxic at Ferrari; or more about Vettel being glass? Since both joined, Ferrari were on the up. Who of those two helped that? Both?

The driver is the one responsible on track. Those wasted races were in the hands of the driver. Arrivabene being a hideous man does not cause Vettel to have a sublime race; then randomly give up the lead, spin and crash halfway through, does it? A bad atmosphere would crumble him at the start of the weekend and leave him each race on the grid at P17. Let's not be silly here.

If you look at the first few weeks of 2018, you'd think it was the Red Bull era again.

 

Well it could be because the thread is not a 'Vettel bash retread thread 47'?



#206 Tsarwash

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 22:42

When you are Brazil. Germany , Italy or France you expect to win the socer world cup, when you are Croatia beeing in the final is an achievement.
Williams is like Hungary, they were big champions long time ago.
And I´m no so hard with the results mantaining competitive a F1 team for a long time is already an achiievement.

Why do you expect France to win the World Cup and not Uruguay ?



#207 YoungGun

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 22:56

Why do you expect France to win the World Cup and not Uruguay ?

 

2018 wasn't enough proof. From Williams being special to silly World Cup comparisons these threads do go off on a tangent! :lol:

 

>> Three Lions (Football's Coming Home <<


Edited by YoungGun, 08 January 2019 - 22:59.


#208 Enzoluis

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 00:16

Why do you expect France to win the World Cup and not Uruguay ?


Uruguay is like Williams, was a great team in the past.

#209 kumo7

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 04:46

Sorry can't keep up with France Uruguay reference.

 

 

There was much talk about MA is screaming around and that disqualifies him as the head.

I wonder how it is. I know great leader sometimes shout around: Steve Jobs. 

 

Also I kinda think journalists are worthless when he disqualified someone because of such behavior.

I can recall Kimi Raikkonen was send to hell because he ate ice-cream and pushed children, while a cameraman pushing back Kimi with his Big Camera in front of his nose right at the start was a usual thing.

 

 

Honestly why there is not one great journalist who took the helm of a Formula 1 team and made himself a champion.

Journalists always come after things and talks about what has happened as if he knew all the way how to win.

If it were so easy.

 

MA, I know too little about him, was the head of Ferrari F1, which has the highest pressure on the entire grid, I would say.

A advertisement guy doing the job is not bad at all.

If he quit, he must have the ride of the century, I am all glad MA did what he did.

 

 

 

...



#210 MNader

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 06:50

This has become very weird



#211 Nonesuch

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 08:37

Arent drivers using the tarmac calculative risks or sometimes even on purpose. Of course maybe some of it was luck but it's certainly different to take risks in a car park or before a gravel trap.

 

Definitely - at times. However, not all excursions are the result of completely missing the mark when trying to make a pass - like for example with Hamilton on Verstappen in Texas. There both drivers knew there was zero risk in trying something new, and even when the move fell apart, nobody really cared.

 

... with Vettel suddenly the team didn't ''support'' him enough, whatever that means.

 

It's pretty clear what that means, even if some chose to ignore it.

 

The two main examples are Germany and Italy, and while it's fair enough if some people see it differently, the argument against the way Ferrari handled those two races is quite simple, as is the oft proposed alternative way they could have handled it.

 

We'll have to wait and see how the new team principal decides to handle such cases. I know which I'd prefer, but I don't think we've heard him comment on such matters publicly so it's hard to tell what he'll do.
 

Would Ferrari be special if they had gone down the route of McLaren and Williams and be running in mid field to the back of the grid? How long would they have to be poor for for the luster to lose its shine?

 

Let's hope we don't find out! :D

 

Maybe that's part of the reason Ferrari is special - they can drop to 4th in the WCC in a bad year, but they've never really imploded in spectacular fashion like McLaren and Williams have.


Edited by Nonesuch, 09 January 2019 - 08:39.


#212 kosmos

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 09:05


 

Maybe that's part of the reason Ferrari is special - they can drop to 4th in the WCC in a bad year, but they've never really imploded in spectacular fashion like McLaren and Williams have.

 

They also have more money, always, plus they make their own engine. So kinda hard to go as low as McLaren and Williams.



#213 Burai

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 10:07

They also have more money, always, plus they make their own engine. So kinda hard to go as low as McLaren and Williams.

 

Yup. The FOM bonus payments and their continued supply of tobacco money long after that avenue has shut to everyone else means they've always got a baked in advantage. The expectations are always high because they should be. Ferrari should be winning both titles every year with the budget advantage they have.



#214 Nonesuch

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 10:17


They also have more money, always, plus they make their own engine. So kinda hard to go as low as McLaren and Williams.

 

The engine can also be a weakness, as it was in 2014. Ferrari got it wrong, and even some customer-teams jumped ahead of Ferrari.

 

Yup. The FOM bonus payments and their continued supply of tobacco money long after that avenue has shut to everyone else means they've always got a baked in advantage.

 

The expectations are always high because they should be. Ferrari should be winning both titles every year with the budget advantage they have.

 

Ferrari's relation with PMI is disappointing, but it is something that's not only open to Ferrari.

 

Ferrari is comfortably beating the teams over which it has a significant budget advantage. But they're not the only big spenders; so are Mercedes and Red Bull, and so was McLaren-Honda.

 

It's true that Ferrari, given where it is both as a manufacturer, an F1 team, and a recipient of additional funds, should do well. Thankfully, they mostly do. :cool:



#215 Rinehart

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 11:26

I often think that winning those six titles on the trot with Michael has skewed both the Tifosi's and the team itself's expectations. Just remember that there were concurrent seasons in both the 80's and 90's where they didn't win a race all season. It has gotten to the point where winning the title every year titles is literally expected, and that is not realistic. Perhaps a few years fighting amongst the midfield will make the team and fans grateful for coming second in the championship ? 

 

I know that both Williams and McLaren would be delighted with last year's Ferrari's results. 

I'm not a Ferrari fan (love having them on the grid) but I don't agree with this at all. They are a top team budget wise, geographically the most integrated works team on the grid and only Mercedes are close in terms of the budget and integration sum combined. They have huge financial and political support from the promotors and regulators, they're as a racing team first and foremost unlike other works teams, most drivers see Ferrari as the pinnacle of F1 and they have the largest fan base and more brand power in F1 than any other team. It's a failure if they are not dominating on this basis. This isn't like a football team such as Man City winning based on huge financial resources, because other teams can match that and they have no greater political or promotional power and receive no more support than their rivals. Ferrari is an exceptional case in sport where its essentially one team with a set of advantages versus everyone else and all things considered it should be nigh on impossible to beat them. Thankfully they're in continual turmoil and it doesn't happen, which keeps it interesting. Just a shame that Mercedes is so well run... or should I say, so German! 



#216 TomNokoe

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 14:06

Same with Scott Mitchell

https://www.autospor...itch-arrivabene

Not that i ever was a fan of MA, quite the contrary, but I do find this sudden bashing a bit, uhm... unpleasant, to say the least. IIRC there wasn't anywhere near that kind of open criticism as long as the guy was in charge.

It's very bizarre. Incidents like this really bother me, because so many casual and moderate fans form their opinions solely through journalists. Yes, they have access, but how important is that, really, in our connected world?

There's a thread on a very popular platform that effectively says "everybody who liked Arrivabene is wildly wrong, listen to journos". :stoned:

Arrivabene struck me as the kind of guy who woke Ferrari from their slumber. Maybe his (apparent) "aggressive" style had wore thin once Ferrari re-established themselves at the very top, but still, he's being ripped to shreds after nothing in the preceding four years.

Arrivabene the villain, farewell.

Edited by TomNokoe, 09 January 2019 - 14:12.


#217 Nonesuch

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 14:12

IIRC there wasn't anywhere near that kind of open criticism as long as the guy was in charge.

 

Because then they would all have cancelled their entire agenda for an interview with him.

 

And now that this is no longer of interest, there's no reason to hold back in airing their, real, perceived or imagined, gripes.


Edited by Nonesuch, 09 January 2019 - 14:12.


#218 Burai

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 14:27

Ferrari's relation with PMI is disappointing, but it is something that's not only open to Ferrari.

 

I'm not sure you'd be able to get such an arrangement past the British government. It would be an easy PR win for the department of health.

 

The Italians have plenty of incentive to turn a blind eye, however.



#219 Imateria

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 14:53

It's very bizarre. Incidents like this really bother me, because so many casual and moderate fans form their opinions solely through journalists. Yes, they have access, but how important is that, really, in our connected world?

There's a thread on a very popular platform that effectively says "everybody who liked Arrivabene is wildly wrong, listen to journos". :stoned:

Arrivabene struck me as the kind of guy who woke Ferrari from their slumber. Maybe his (apparent) "aggressive" style had wore thin once Ferrari re-established themselves at the very top, but still, he's being ripped to shreds after nothing in the preceding four years.

Arrivabene the villain, farewell.

The dislike for Arrivabene in the padock has been apparent for several years now. I mean lets be honest here, it's an incredibly dumb move to cut your team off from all media communication other than FIA stipulated press conferences when working in an entertainment industry. It's left many journo's working with little more than rumour and Arrivabene then gets annoyed and aggressive with said journos for working with rumours. I think it's quite telling that outside of forums with people who know considerably less than they think they do, nobody has said anything good about Arrivabene's time at Ferrari.

 

As for waking the team from slumber, shouldn't that be Marchionne's accolade since by all accounts he's the one that made the important decissions. 



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#220 Nonesuch

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 15:17

I mean lets be honest here, it's an incredibly dumb move to cut your team off from all media communication other than FIA stipulated press conferences when working in an entertainment industry.

 

That's not what happened, though. Ferrari and its drivers participated in all manner of events, as well as Ferrari's own various outlets. One can also easily find dozens of videos on YouTube of reporters talking to Arrivabene outside the usual media venues, just walking around the paddock.

 

That people who get paid to write stories are ticked off that the most important team in F1 has less time for them, leaving them to write about the also-rans that get them fewer online clicks, is understandable - but it's not Ferrari's team principal's job to entertain a bunch of writers and bloggers.

 


#221 e34

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 16:40

 

That's not what happened, though. Ferrari and its drivers participated in all manner of events, as well as Ferrari's own various outlets. One can also easily find dozens of videos on YouTube of reporters talking to Arrivabene outside the usual media venues, just walking around the paddock.

 

That people who get paid to write stories are ticked off that the most important team in F1 has less time for them, leaving them to write about the also-rans that get them fewer online clicks, is understandable - but it's not Ferrari's team principal's job to entertain a bunch of writers and bloggers.

 

 

 

 

I could not agree more with you... but tell that to Alonso and to Arrivabene.

 

Press' power to cause havoc should never be underestimated. If they manage to create a bad public image of an individual, he'll be pushing **** uphill.



#222 Sterzo

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 16:58

This has become very weird

And you sort of know it's going to get weirder... next page we'll read that:

 

Vettel stopped Arrivabene from talking to Mark Hughes.

It's wrong to promote anyone who's good, because no-one could do their old job.



#223 as65p

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 22:09

Because then they would all have cancelled their entire agenda for an interview with him.

 

And now that this is no longer of interest, there's no reason to hold back in airing their, real, perceived or imagined, gripes.

 

Guess so. It's not that I can't imagine MA being exactly the kind of a**hole they describe now, but still... staying quite for 4 years and then coming down on him like a ton of bricks the very second he loses his power feels :well:.



#224 SCUDmissile

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 22:27

Guess so. It's not that I can't imagine MA being exactly the kind of a**hole they describe now, but still... staying quite for 4 years and then coming down on him like a ton of bricks the very second he loses his power feels :well:.


The likes of Will Buxton, Mark Hughes and Joe Seaward (along with Brundle and the folks at channel 4) have been complaining about Ferrari and the lack of access they've been getting since 2016.

#225 HP

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:58

The slow start where he led the championship post-Monaco, despite losing a victory through misfortune in Melbourne and took a grid penalty in Bahrain. That slow start? Granted, he picked it up a bit as the season wore on, and China was a particularly sluggish race although even then Merc could have salvaged it under the SC... failure to do so being the sort of thing that would get somebody hung, if they were dressed in red.

Why do you defend him, when Hamilton himself pointed it out? Hamilton acknowledged it. That he put his head down to work at himself and returned to form speaks to  me much more of his strength, than your defense. Only the best of the best can do that.



#226 Rinehart

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:53

Yup. The FOM bonus payments and their continued supply of tobacco money long after that avenue has shut to everyone else means they've always got a baked in advantage. The expectations are always high because they should be. Ferrari should be winning both titles every year with the budget advantage they have.

Ferrari have completely adhered to tobacco advertising laws, this has nothing to do with Formula One, who do not have their own rules on the subject. There is no law that prevents a tobacco company from investing in or even BUYING a formula one team or any other sports team. And I wouldn't agree this is more unethical than some of the avenues other F1 teams are getting some of their money... As an aside PMI plans to cease producing traditional cigarettes in due course, I think they should be allowed to promote alternatives that are more than 95% safer... 



#227 sopa

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:57

Surprising. Umm, not sure, what is going on there, but surely there have been mentions of power struggle in Ferrari ever since the death of Marchionne.

 

As for people speculating about Vettel, Ferrari could keep him even if he gets beaten by Leclerc. I mean this would validate Leclerc would be the true #1 star driver, and Vettel would make a good #2 driver better than someone like Bottas or Gasly, right? So why need to change? Although Ferrari may want to re-negotiate the salary of Vettel.

 

Doomsday for Vettel would be if he were to fall out with the team, like happened to Prost in 1991. But so far Vettel has managed to keep good relationships off the track. Although 2019 will be a test for him provided how the battle evolves.



#228 sopa

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 13:00

Uruguay is like Williams, was a great team in the past.

 

Williams comparison is generous to Uruguay. They are more like, umm,,, maybe BRM, Cooper, or actually Alfa Romeo. :p



#229 kurski

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 14:11

Arrivabene to Sauber ? 

 

He could play the role of a coordinator between Alfa Romeo and the Hinwil factory.

 

 



#230 danmills

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 00:16

Side thought... chances of him ending up at Sauber?

 

Well....  :yawnface:



#231 Enzoluis

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 12:03

Williams comparison is generous to Uruguay. They are more like, umm,,, maybe BRM, Cooper, or actually Alfa Romeo. :p


Uruguay was fourth in 2010. Probably better than Williams far from the podium since 1997?

#232 Imateria

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 12:15

Uruguay was fourth in 2010. Probably better than Williams far from the podium since 1997?

I take it you missed 2014 then. Or 2003 for that matter.



#233 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 16:24

Our main man has spoken! 

 

https://www.motorspo...inotto/4322508/

 

Which almost certainly means Ferrari have picked absolutely the right person!  :up:


Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 11 January 2019 - 16:25.


#234 f1rules

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 16:27

For once i agree with him actually, i dont understand ferraris decision, but maybe its the right one, we will see, maybe there is enough depth in their tech organisation to handle this

#235 chrisj

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 16:35

The likes of Will Buxton, Mark Hughes and Joe Seaward (along with Brundle and the folks at channel 4) have been complaining about Ferrari and the lack of access they've been getting since 2016.

 

If I was managing Ferrari, I wouldn't talk to that lot either.



#236 kumo7

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 08:55

For once i agree with him actually, i dont understand ferraris decision, but maybe its the right one, we will see, maybe there is enough depth in their tech organisation to handle this

 

Seconded.

 

But this is all sure.

Everybody has his time limited at Ferrari. Aarivabene did his four years and could not win.

 

If Binotto could not win, then he will be out.

So this is the most stupid part of the decision-making, if you asks me.

Ferrari could enjoy great contribution of Binotto for decades to come, as long as he is NOT the head of the team, but remain as the head of the engineer.

SO far his car is in a good direction. With the help of a better manager, Ferrari could hav enjoyed the longer time.

 

Never the less, may be Binotto woud not want to stay at Ferrari for much longer than four more years, and move on to his next adventure.

In such case, it is what he exactly wanted and therefore this could be the right thing to do...


Edited by kumo7, 12 January 2019 - 08:56.


#237 Nonesuch

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 09:08

I dont understand ferraris decision

 

Exactly. That's just it. Do we know who works at Ferrari. As in, everyone who works at Ferrari?

 

Of course not. Neither does Anderson. He just knows the big names, and when a big name changes, the person who doesn't understand how this shuffle plays out will reflexively proclaim "But why!?".

 

Mid-2016 one could have made the argument "Why promote Binotto now that the engine is finally back on the right track?! Who could possibly replace him! Can he even do his new job?!".

 

We'll just have to wait and see.



#238 ExEd

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 10:48

Our main man has spoken!

https://www.motorspo...inotto/4322508/

Which almost certainly means Ferrari have picked absolutely the right person! :up:


He makes perfect sense.

#239 ViMaMo

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 10:55

It had to be Seb's finger pulling the trigger. 🤣

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#240 pdac

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 15:50

i dont understand ferraris decision

 

I do. It's not about the man. Ferrari are making it clear to everyone that they expect success and if someone does not deliver that, they will be out.



#241 Enzoluis

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 16:07

I do. It's not about the man. Ferrari are making it clear to everyone that they expect success and if someone does not deliver that, they will be out.


If that is the reason it was the wrong decision. How many bad seasons stayed Todt ar Ferrari or Wolff at Mercedes before start to win?
The important is the pattern if the team is improving there is no needs of fire people and find scapegoats. 2018 was better than 2017 that was better than 2016.
I believe more in a personal confrontation between Binotto , the ambitious, and Arrivabene, the dictator. The Direction of Ferrari had to choose one and they picked the less easy to replace. Ferrari with Binotto get the top technically. Will see if he can manage the Scuderia. Better he founds good people for strategy, he was in charge of that people and a few times seemed to be Domenicali in charge.

#242 RA2

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 16:44

Even the great Ross Brawn was asked to step aside in 2013

#243 AustinF1

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 17:40

Mario isn't surprised...
 

Andretti also said he was not surprised to see team principal Maurizio Arrivabene given the chop by Ferrari.
 
“It doesn’t surprise me so much because there has always been a policy there: if they don’t win, someone has to leave,” he said.
 
“We saw what happened to Stefano Domenicali, who was great there… the team principal is always to blame.

 

 



#244 baddog

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 23:07

If a team gives a team principal the best resources in the sport and they dont get results then what do you expect to happen eventually?



#245 Fatgadget

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 23:13

Wrong. Williams is special only for the brits. That's about it.

By the same logic, Renault only special to the French? Red Bull to the Austrians? Mercedes to the Germans?...You want me to go on?



#246 Fatgadget

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 23:24

If a team gives a team principal the best resources in the sport and they dont get results then what do you expect to happen eventually?

Get real FFS! Explain then the demise of Toyota, Lotus, Brabham etc etc etc....Only because their TPs sucked? :rolleyes:



#247 Fatgadget

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 23:35

 

Mario isn't surprised...
 

 

 

Lets be brutally honest here.  Should heavy shite hit the fan in any organisation ..They will ALWAYS be a fall guy. A minion usually!



#248 Fatgadget

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 00:03

The team's job is to ensure that the drivers are in the best possible shape and with the best possible tools at their disposal in order to achieve the team's objectives.

 

I am not absolving Vettel of the blame for what happened in Germany - I am just saying that the way the team managed this race was unbelievably amateurish, setting up a chain of events that lead to the crash. The exact same thing happened in Monza, with the team dumping Raikkonen right when they needed his cooperation and then messing up the qualifying strategy.

 

Vettel's error in Baku and France for example have nothing to do with the team - obviously, but in Germany and Italy the team messed up - BIG TIME. And as I have said in the past, I can understand a split second decision gone wrong, but in both cases the team demonstrated a clear lack of management capability.

That is an Utopic standpoint my friend! Other than what is written in stone contract wise, A driver is a human being  free to do whatever during their free time. Of course, should whatever negative 'Appens...Different story alltogether..Ala when Sutil in a night club and glass started flying all over the place.

 

That is shite hitting the fan personified.



#249 baddog

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 01:09

Get real FFS! Explain then the demise of Toyota, Lotus, Brabham etc etc etc....Only because their TPs sucked? :rolleyes:

 

Well who is responsible for the performance of a team LONG TERM other than the overall team manager? Lotus faded away once the one guy who ran the real Lotus died, though did fairly well for a time of course. Brabham had strong leaders then when sold by the last of those faded away under poor management.

 

Now a corporate that pulls the plug on the F1 team like Toyota, or a parent company that under-invests like Renault perhaps, that is a different thing, but for teams that just fade away long term or fail to turn top level resources into winning, yes the team principal is the one to blame, he is in the end responsible for the team he runs.



#250 Nonesuch

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 09:38

 

Mario isn't surprised...

 

Stefano Domenicali "was great there"? For Red Bull, maybe. :stoned:

 

This supposed "policy" doesn't really explain why Ferrari kept Massa and/or Räikkönen around for 12 years! Twelve!

 

Ferrari doesn't need a 'fall guy', they just need to improve. Arrivabene did all he could - thanks, well done - but he reached a ceiling. Ferrari wasn't improving any more.