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Renault Technical Thread (R.S.19)


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#5151 Lemojn

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 07:58

"Renault F1's managing director Cyril Abiteboul said what the team learned about the car in the first half of the year prompted it to decide it needed to improve its Enstone windtunnel, which meant putting it out of action for nearly one month."

 

"The front wings are super-sensitive, the way that they are hitting the bodywork, hitting the floor, leading edge and so on, they are super-sensitive and we have understood a lot in the windtunnel. This meant the windtunnel was shut down for more than just the [summer] shutdown. That impact on development and the fact that we were working on multiple projects meant that we were delayed, but that was investment. If we want to be at the level we want to be ultimately, we had to do these things. So it is an encouraging sign of things to come."

 

"It was planned, and was the sort of thing that goes back to the previous ownership because very little investment was done and it is something that we were pushing back, pushing back, pushing back, but at some point we had to do it. With 2021 coming very near, we needed to be ready with everything, even if it meant sacrificing some of this year's development."

 

 

https://www.autospor...tunnel-shutdown



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#5152 Amz964

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 12:46

"Renault F1's managing director Cyril Abiteboul said what the team learned about the car in the first half of the year prompted it to decide it needed to improve its Enstone windtunnel, which meant putting it out of action for nearly one month."

"The front wings are super-sensitive, the way that they are hitting the bodywork, hitting the floor, leading edge and so on, they are super-sensitive and we have understood a lot in the windtunnel. This meant the windtunnel was shut down for more than just the [summer] shutdown. That impact on development and the fact that we were working on multiple projects meant that we were delayed, but that was investment. If we want to be at the level we want to be ultimately, we had to do these things. So it is an encouraging sign of things to come."

"It was planned, and was the sort of thing that goes back to the previous ownership because very little investment was done and it is something that we were pushing back, pushing back, pushing back, but at some point we had to do it. With 2021 coming very near, we needed to be ready with everything, even if it meant sacrificing some of this year's development."


https://www.autospor...tunnel-shutdown

Just sounds like another Cyril excuse to be honest to say why we have been less than average this year. Every year there is always something to say why they have not been competitive and it seems they never learn from it. Just got to hope he is right this time.

Edited by Amz964, 17 October 2019 - 12:47.


#5153 Amz964

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 20:06

Both Hulk and Ric disqualified from Japan. What a joke though the FIA says in the article in the technical perspective it's a legal device but the use of it is not! How can they disqualify them for that! I would understand if they told them to reprogram it but to disqualify them makes no sense

#5154 Laster

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 20:17

Yeah I could do with an expert on that to break it down into layman terms. It’s very strange the software is legal but the use of it not.

#5155 Quickshifter

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 20:21

The system apparently is legal one but it still constitutes as a driver aid and contravenes the regulation which says the driver must drive the car unaided and alone.



#5156 eREr

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 20:27

The system apparently is legal one but it still constitutes as a driver aid and contravenes the regulation which says the driver must drive the car unaided and alone.


How can be a system legal if it is a driver aid?

#5157 Flasheart

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 20:30

This is (almost) a repeat of the mass damper fiasco.

#5158 Quickshifter

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 20:32

How can be a system legal if it is a driver aid?

That it is not distance dependent(which is illegal) but through some other confidential method. Irrespective of how the system functions brake bias has to be adjusted only by the driver and not through any system

#5159 Mc_Silver

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 20:32

How can be a system legal if it is a driver aid?


Drivers are not allowed to make any intervention to the system?

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#5160 eREr

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 20:38

That it is not distance dependent(which is illegal) but through some other confidential method. Irrespective of how the system functions brake bias has to be adjusted only by the driver and not through any system


You didn't answer my question. I don't care how it works. My point is if this system is a driver aid, then it must be completely illegal. But it is a legal system according to FIA...

#5161 MrRat

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 20:44

You didn't answer my question. I don't care how it works. My point is if this system is a driver aid, then it must be completely illegal. But it is a legal system according to FIA...


Legal under technical regulations. Drivers aid is illegal under sporting regulations and so it’s gone and Renault have been DSQ.

#5162 Massa

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 20:49

The system apparently is legal one but it still constitutes as a driver aid and contravenes the regulation which says the driver must drive the car unaided and alone.


I really can't understand

So power steering is a driver aid too so a team can complain that X team use it??

#5163 Ivanhoe

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 07:47

I really can't understand
So power steering is a driver aid too so a team can complain that X team use it??

No, since power steering is explicitly allowed under the technical regulations.

#5164 statman

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 09:12

Just sounds like another Cyril excuse to be honest to say why we have been less than average this year. Every year there is always something to say why they have not been competitive and it seems they never learn from it. Just got to hope he is right this time.

 

:smoking:



#5165 Alburaq

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Posted 06 November 2019 - 09:16

Renault did the same mistake as Mclaren in 2018,which is problematic for 2020 and even 2021 because they did it a year too late.
Mclaren knew in 2017 that they'll have a much better PU and they thought that their 2017 chassis was (very) good, so they've decided to keep the "same" chassis/the same concept and expected a nice leap forward... But they were wrong because the chassis wasnt that good, the concept was even wrong and the car reached its limits very quicly.
Renault did exactly the same in 2019 (and their aero developpement rate was even slower) and experienced a similar outcome (Renault managed to limit the damage IMO) 
Mclaren could react in time and they've completely revised their concept in 2019 and they can develop it easy in 2020 thanks to the stable rules. But Renault has to do that in 2020 if they want to remain competitive... while working on the 2021 car at the same time.


#5166 gowebber

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 00:21

Obviously at the end of the day its hypothetical but I tend to agree with Prost here. Would have been pretty close between McLaren and Renault in the points if not for Renault shooting themselves in the foot far too often this season, more than McLaren ever did. If anyone would know its the Professor, he obviously has access to all the data.

 

"Prost claims Renault could've beaten McLaren in 2019 "without the incidents"

 

https://www.gpblog.c...incidents-.html


Edited by gowebber, 10 November 2019 - 00:25.


#5167 Clatter

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 14:10

Obviously at the end of the day its hypothetical but I tend to agree with Prost here. Would have been pretty close between McLaren and Renault in the points if not for Renault shooting themselves in the foot far too often this season, more than McLaren ever did. If anyone would know its the Professor, he obviously has access to all the data.

 

"Prost claims Renault could've beaten McLaren in 2019 "without the incidents"

 

https://www.gpblog.c...incidents-.html

 


Is he taking into account the points lost by Mclaren for their unfortunate incidents? At the end of the day points are not awarded for what might have been.

#5168 GreenMachine

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 20:29

Oh, we are playing the 'if only' game again?!  Well, that is a lot easier than putting the work into the car and team and actually scoring the results, something that Renault has been unable/unwilling to do so far.

 

Problem is, nobody other than the w*nkers playing that game are fooled, and there is no payoff such as FOM money and WCC points. 

 

Tomorrow, toujours tomorrow ...



#5169 pablo_a

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 02:20

No, since power steering is explicitly allowed under the technical regulations.

 

But so is the Renault braking system, mate - its legal in the tech regs. Do the logic.

 

The power steering on F1 cars is totally driver adjustable (and no doubt then applies some form of linear or non-linear modification for speed) hence a driver aid applying the principle applied to Renault's brake bias system; so Massa's point is valid. Its just the FIA have decided to make a completely illogical and legally nonsensical ruling which, no doubt for political reasons, Renault have decided not to challenge. They (FIA) may have a few people in there who might understand a bit about mechanical and software engineering, but it appears none have done first year undergrad philosophy of logic. Which pretty much underpins application of law. They just end-up looking like twits with this stuff!



#5170 Reddington

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 05:16

Is he taking into account the points lost by Mclaren for their unfortunate incidents? At the end of the day points are not awarded for what might have been.

 

Right. McLaren lost a lot of points too. Especially Lando had his misfortunes in good positions. Shall we account for these as well?

These "what if" scenarios....

Why? To make Renault feel better about themselves?

I truly don't get it.

 

They're 5th and judging by their performances, that's where they should be.



#5171 Amz964

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Posted 12 November 2019 - 08:56

To be honest even as a massive fan of the team I can't deny that McLaren deserve the P4 in the championship as they definitely do. Yes we have made some massive fundamental errors and had bad luck but McLaren haven't had a clean season either. Think the WCC is a fair comparison of each team's performance.

Edited by Amz964, 13 November 2019 - 13:50.


#5172 ATM

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Posted 12 November 2019 - 11:15

Prost knows the game all too well so he cannot think he can fool anybody who actually follows the sport. As such, I don’t think the statement is issued towards F1 fans but rather aimed at Renault top management - which might not be die-hard specialists but they surely ask for targets to be kept in their bianual board meetings.

#5173 A3

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 11:58

Obviously there are optimistic noises about gains on the engine side, which can make for an exciting year
 
I personally will be following how the below stories will develop over the next year, with a great interest:
 
- How will Renaul fare agianst McLaren? I think Renault should have it in the bag, giving that McLaren are just at the beggining of their restructurizing process.
- How well will be RBR doing? Are they going to challenge for the WDC right from the start? I think not
- Will the gap to the Mercedes be significantly reduced? I hope so.
- How will Vettel cope with Leclerc and who will be quicker. That's not related to current topic but I'm super interested to see how this will go

 
 

This year, no more ****ing around. Anything less than clear number 4 and slashed time gap at the end of the season will be a failure.


So now that McLaren has sealed P4 in the championship and STR still has a slight chance to overtake Renault for P5, what's next for Renault?

What has been different from 2018? I don't see them improving anytime soon.

#5174 Boing 2

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 15:04

Why is it that Ferrari have gone 12 years without a title but no one asks when they are leaving the sport, McLaren have gone 11 years without the same question but after consistent year on year improvement from Renault one bad year and people are saying they should quit?



#5175 dn12005

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 15:10

Why is it that Ferrari have gone 12 years without a title but no one asks when they are leaving the sport, McLaren have gone 11 years without the same question but after consistent year on year improvement from Renault one bad year and people are saying they should quit?

 

giphy.gif?cid=790b7611fe566120cc44b8860f



#5176 A3

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 15:37

Why is it that Ferrari have gone 12 years without a title but no one asks when they are leaving the sport, McLaren have gone 11 years without the same question but after consistent year on year improvement from Renault one bad year and people are saying they should quit?


Who is saying they should quit?

And 1 bad year? Really?

#5177 Boing 2

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 16:37

The general tone is "oh these guys are hopeless, whats the point"  and yeah, they've been getting better and better results every year until now.



#5178 Requiem84

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 16:42

The general tone is "oh these guys are hopeless, whats the point"  and yeah, they've been getting better and better results every year until now.

 

The general tone is that of false promises. 

 

Over and over and over and....



#5179 BertoC

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 16:44

Why is it that Ferrari have gone 12 years without a title but no one asks when they are leaving the sport, McLaren have gone 11 years without the same question but after consistent year on year improvement from Renault one bad year and people are saying they should quit?

 

I don't think anyone in their right mind wants Renault to quit. I don't support them but I want them to progress and fight the top teams. The thing is, Renault has a history of quiting when things are not going 100% their way, so it's not unfounded the fears and questions about their future, although I personally, don't think they will quit until 2021. If Renault had stayed on uninterruptedly (like Ferrari and Mclaren) as a team since 1977 (or even since 2002 with Enstone) I don't think anyone would be having any doubt that they would stay in the sport.



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#5180 fed up

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 16:59

 
 

So now that McLaren has sealed P4 in the championship and STR still has a slight chance to overtake Renault for P5, what's next for Renault?

What has been different from 2018? I don't see them improving anytime soon.

 

IMHO forking out all that $ for Ricciardo was a mistake - they would have been better off spending the dough on their car and sticking with a Hulk/Sainz combo while continuing to develop their car.

 

The knock on effect has been to release Sainz to McLaren, who was crucial in sealing their top 4 position, and ultimately losing Hulk for the average Ocon.

 

Midfield teams should stop dreaming that one missing link ( a super star driver) is the answer to their woes. McLaren saw the light while Renault fell for the trap.



#5181 Dratini

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 17:12

Why is it that Ferrari have gone 12 years without a title but no one asks when they are leaving the sport, McLaren have gone 11 years without the same question but after consistent year on year improvement from Renault one bad year and people are saying they should quit?

Probably also has something to do with the goings on behind the scenes for Reno.

 

Who is saying they should quit?

And 1 bad year? Really?

One bad year in terms of the upward trend that Reno have endured over the last few years. They haven't continued that this season.

 



#5182 TheMessiah

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 20:20

 

Midfield teams should stop dreaming that one missing link ( a super star driver) is the answer to their woes. McLaren saw the light while Renault fell for the trap.

 

I said at the time Renault signed Riccardo that McLaren should be happy as it means they are far less in the spotlight and under less pressure to deliver. IMHO Renaults performance has been really scrutinised far greater due to signing Riccardo and they would have benefited a lot if they had put the £££££ into car development.



#5183 gowebber

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 21:14

Who is saying they should quit?

And 1 bad year? Really?

 

Stirring the pot again. Thats unlike you.  :lol:  Like clockwork in here though after Max does well.  :stoned:

 

This 1 bad year was masked by an inability to capitalize on consistently bringing in decent points hauls. McLaren were able to do it and Renault were not. I don't think Renault's pace over the season in general was all that bad and particularly not in the last 4 or 5 races. I think there is a bit of overreaction considering how far back McLaren have come from since last year which makes it look worse than it really is. If you look at alot of the gaps to the front in 2018  race by race they have decreased this season. Will be crucial next season that they stop making stupid mistakes and further close the gap. Even saying that nobody knows how much teams will/can devote to the 2020 car while working on the 2021 car as well so even results from next year may not be a good indicator for 2021. Renault will keep boxing on and hopefully with the rejigged chassis department can finally make the big jump they need towards the front.


Edited by gowebber, 18 November 2019 - 21:15.


#5184 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 21:23

Forget McLaren or fourth; their clearly stated aim was to being down the gap to the front runners substantially. I’d have to look it up, but I think we said before the season started that if they managed to qualify within .7s to .8s from 1.5s last year that would represent good progress and show they were on their way to bridging the gap. Don’t know where the average gap is at exactly, but I doubt they are anywhere near under a second, and that’s with the whole midfield edging closer to the front as well.

#5185 Heyli

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 22:07

Forget McLaren or fourth; their clearly stated aim was to being down the gap to the front runners substantially. I’d have to look it up, but I think we said before the season started that if they managed to qualify within .7s to .8s from 1.5s last year that would represent good progress and show they were on their way to bridging the gap. Don’t know where the average gap is at exactly, but I doubt they are anywhere near under a second, and that’s with the whole midfield edging closer to the front as well.

I dont have the feeling that the midfield actually really got closer. looked promising the first few races, but the gap seems to have been quite big in the last few ones again. (in general, not Renault specifically). 

 

I´m still hoping Renault can close the gap (the more teams at the front the better), but I dont think their performance was good enough this year. doesnt really matter if it was down to pace, or them not reaching their potential for different reasons. They didnt perform as a team. 

 

Still rooting for Dan, but with them taking on Ocon instead of Hulkenberg, I have to admit I´m rooting for them a little less next season... :) 



#5186 A3

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 22:10

Stirring the pot again. Thats unlike you.  :lol:  Like clockwork in here though after Max does well.  :stoned:


Yeah ok. The news that McLaren secured 4th triggered me. Nothing more.

It's not a weird question to ask. You still believe in Renault, but like some in here expected, nothing came off it again. In previous years the engine was crap and the car decent, now the engine was pretty good and the car is just not good. You can spin it around, but it's not good enough. Even on the engine side they seem to have come to a standstill compared to Honda for instance.
None of the goals have been reached and you know it. McLaren moved from 6th to 4th in the WCC, earning themselves millions. Renault will have to do with less next year.

This was Abiteboul in May:

"It is true that any small deviation can make the change more spectacular than it is in reality, but the target was to be clear ahead of the midfield, and so far we have not delivered.

"So the short term priority is to get back in line with that competitiveness level which, in my opinion, is completely accessible if we do things right and we bring what we are supposed to bring in the next couple of races to the car."
...
"But again that was not the only target this year. The target of this year was to reduce the gap to the top teams, but right now it is not happening and we need to take steps to make sure it happens."

According to many all the ingredients where there this year. But nothing came of it. How on earth are they going to improve next year with even less money?

#5187 gowebber

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 00:15

I never said they didn't underachieve this year, its clear they dropped the ball too many times, I just don't see the car is as bad as some are making out. The trend over the last 4-5 races is positive especially with Dan's performances being overall quicker than McLaren. Hopefully next year they can make much better decisions strategy wise and also minimize other silly mistakes/ issues and also build a better car. You can have a decent car but if you keep stuffing up with silly mistakes etc its going to look bad regardless.

 

As for the engine I think the high altitude at Brazil masked the performance of the Renault with the smaller turbo (previously it was larger which is why they were so strong at Mexico in 2018 etc) so hard to call the Honda better after Brazil. However the engines all seem to be alot closer now though. Its anyones guess what the current HP outputs are.

 

The big France update was pretty much a dud which is part of the reason why they are making personnel changes in the chassis department like the hiring of Pat Fry for 2020. Like I said next year noone knows the split times for working on the 2020 car vs 2021 so things may not be as they seem. Everyone has to work with less money not just Renault. 


Edited by gowebber, 19 November 2019 - 00:29.


#5188 Sardukar

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:03

Renault have been faster in race trim than McLaren since the summer break. They obviously had some serious teething problems with this years car, especially with stability under braking and turn in. Once that got solved they have been pretty quick.

 

But really, does anyone here actually think Renault were going to compete for podiums this year? or next year? they spend half of what the top 3 teams spend, they aren't going to get there. Renault are in it for 2021 with the budget cap where they will be on equal footing with Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull. And unlike all the other midfield teams they will have the advantage of producing their own engines outside of the budget cap for the team.



#5189 ARTGP

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:14

Even if the budgets are equal, better engineering groups still do better (I.e Mercedes, Red Bull) . And tragic race ops groups are still tragic (Ferrari, Renault).

#5190 Dratini

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:59

For me, Renault have been disappointing primarily for two reasons. In no particular order the first of those reasons is their operations during the race (i.e. their strategy). They've squandered a number of opportunities for good points this season with both drivers through hopeless strategy calls they you seldom hear about with other teams. The second is just their inconsistency on a race-by-race basis. Just when you think they're turning a leaf and we're saying things like "they're starting to break free as the fourth best car", they have a woeful weekend where the car just has no pace.



#5191 fisssssi

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 02:06

They've been quick in races since the summer break. Including Japan Dan has finished P6, P8, P6, P6. Before this they were unlucky in Belgium, Singapore and Russia where they all showed top-10 pace. The only races they've looked genuinely uncompetitive were Austria and maybe Hungary.

 

Sainz is where he is because McLaren have been much more consistent in qualifying and, because of this, he has been much better at staying out of trouble. And occasionally just plain lucky (*cough* Monaco!)


Edited by fisssssi, 19 November 2019 - 02:07.


#5192 goldenboy

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 12:35

IMHO forking out all that $ for Ricciardo was a mistake - they would have been better off spending the dough on their car and sticking with a Hulk/Sainz combo while continuing to develop their car.

The knock on effect has been to release Sainz to McLaren, who was crucial in sealing their top 4 position, and ultimately losing Hulk for the average Ocon.

Midfield teams should stop dreaming that one missing link ( a super star driver) is the answer to their woes. McLaren saw the light while Renault fell for the trap.

Lol, mclaren saw the light. You do realise Mclaren were also head hunting Dan for similar money don't you?

#5193 goldenboy

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 12:39

I said at the time Renault signed Riccardo that McLaren should be happy as it means they are far less in the spotlight and under less pressure to deliver. IMHO Renaults performance has been really scrutinised far greater due to signing Riccardo and they would have benefited a lot if they had put the £££££ into car development.

Ricciardos salary has paid for itself with marketing value I think. He's one of the more popular drivers with fans and I was surprised how much screen time he got.

Meanwhile Sainz and Mclaren are complaining about being invisible. This is not a knock on Sainz driving mind you, he's obviously been brilliant.

Edited by goldenboy, 19 November 2019 - 12:40.


#5194 statman

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Posted 29 November 2019 - 10:28

Today, FP1, failure:

 

EKiEcHCWoAAetrn.jpg

EKiEcHCXUAEnfF4.jpg



#5195 Viryfan

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Posted 29 November 2019 - 10:51

Today, FP1, failure:

EKiEcHCWoAAetrn.jpg
EKiEcHCXUAEnfF4.jpg


Practice engine

#5196 Gambelli

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Posted 29 November 2019 - 11:31

Practice engine

 

It needs to practice harder... it did a terrible job of being an engine......



#5197 eREr

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 12:06

Today, FP1


And? Shall I go to RB/TR/Honda threads to post similar picture when the mighty Honda died in one of the TR in FP 2 weeks ago or what?

#5198 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 12:26

And? Shall I go to RB/TR/Honda threads to post similar picture when the mighty Honda died in one of the TR in FP 2 weeks ago or what?


Could have done, but you’d look a bit silly now considering it’s two weeks ago and that car got on the podium two days later in no small part thanks to that engine (well, the one they were planning to use in the race anyway). ;)

I all seriousness I agree that there is no great shame in an early spec and much used engine failing in a late season free practice session by the way.

#5199 eREr

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 13:30

Could have done, but you’d look a bit silly now considering it’s two weeks ago and that car got on the podium two days later in no small part thanks to that engine (well, the one they were planning to use in the race anyway). ;)

I all seriousness I agree that there is no great shame in an early spec and much used engine failing in a late season free practice session by the way.


It was the Merc PU failure, the Merc low top speed setup, the Ferrari drivers, the Hamilton brainfade against Albon. That podium was pure luck, not a deserved podium. Just like in Germany.

Old, high mileage practice PU failures have nothing to do with the race results.

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#5200 Requiem84

Requiem84
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  • 6,458 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 30 November 2019 - 13:41

It was the Merc PU failure, the Merc low top speed setup, the Ferrari drivers, the Hamilton brainfade against Albon. That podium was pure luck, not a deserved podium. Just like in Germany.

Old, high mileage practice PU failures have nothing to do with the race results.

It was a P2 because the Honda outdragged the Merc and because teams like Renault were not there to capitalize on the mistakes.

Honda has blasted away Renault this year - especially in terms of reliability. I remember discussing with you last year’s Renault and Honda reliability. I hope you now realize how wrong you were about 2018 and how wrong you have been about 2019.

It hurts, I know.

Edited by Requiem84, 30 November 2019 - 13:42.