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Renault Technical Thread (R.S.19)


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#5201 gowebber

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 13:50

It was a P2 because the Honda outdragged the Merc and because teams like Renault were not there to capitalize on the mistakes.

Honda has blasted away Renault this year - especially in terms of reliability. I remember discussing with you last year’s Renault and Honda reliability. I hope you now realize how wrong you were about 2018 and how wrong you have been about 2019.

It hurts, I know.

 

Brazil is an outlier track being high altitude. Weaker for the Renault PU given now they are using a smaller turbo. I wouldn't take the performance of the Honda PU there as gospel. The Renault engine is very strong now in most other tracks. Hard to say how close the Honda and Renault engines are at this point in time.

 

Having said that the Honda engine has been alot more reliable than I thought it would be and has vastly improved overall.


Edited by gowebber, 30 November 2019 - 14:06.


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#5202 Gambelli

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 14:08

Brazil is an outlier track being high altitude. Weaker for the Renault PU given now they are using a smaller turbo. I wouldn't take the performance of the Honda PU there as gospel. The Renault engine is very strong now in most other tracks. Hard to say how close the Honda and Renault engines are at this point in time.

 

Having said that the Honda engine has been alot more reliable than I thought it would be and has vastly improved overall.

 

Spot on



#5203 Requiem84

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 14:35

On outright power the Renault and Honda are problaby pretty close.

But as a total package, the Honda PU is now múch better than Renault.

#5204 eREr

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 15:35

It was a P2 because the Honda outdragged the Merc and because teams like Renault were not there to capitalize on the mistakes.

Honda has blasted away Renault this year - especially in terms of reliability. I remember discussing with you last year’s Renault and Honda reliability. I hope you now realize how wrong you were about 2018 and how wrong you have been about 2019.

It hurts, I know.


It was luck, not Honda.

Let's count the used PU elements.

#5205 Requiem84

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 16:02

It was luck, not Honda.

Let's count the used PU elements.


Or the retirements, or the times Renault had issues in qualifying.

Falling flat on your face again.

The pure facts are that RB’s B team with a Honda PU, with sub par drivers, are close to beating the full fledged Renault works team.

Put Ricciardo in the TR and get Kvyat in a Renault -> Renault wouldn’t even be close to TR.

#5206 Gambelli

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 17:21

Or the retirements, or the times Renault had issues in qualifying.

Falling flat on your face again.

The pure facts are that RB’s B team with a Honda PU, with sub par drivers, are close to beating the full fledged Renault works team.

Put Ricciardo in the TR and get Kvyat in a Renault -> Renault wouldn’t even be close to TR.

 

I'm not sure its quite that simple.  Monza and Canada show that the Renault engine is pretty handy, I think in reality the TR chassis is probably on par with the Renault, maybe even better.  The Renault seems good on tyres, but not great at heating them up in the first place.

 

One thing I think we can all agree on, Renault made a huge engine step at the beginning of the year (once they sorted it out) but then its all gone quiet, whereas Honda have made amazing strides throughout the year and their reliability has been amazing.

 

If you were telling a non F1 follower right now, that one of the 4 engine manufacturers was languishing way behind a year ago, I reckon those uninformed, as it stands today, would probably assume it was Renault, which shows you just how good Honda are now looking.

 

Are they more powerful than the Renault?  I'm sure there's nothing in it, fuel economy and drivability has just as big a say and that seems to be an unknown between the two.  I'm glad both have had the opportunity to shine (somewhat) during the season....



#5207 Gambelli

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 17:25

On outright power the Renault and Honda are problaby pretty close.

But as a total package, the Honda PU is now múch better than Renault.

 

...ah I see you're saying the same thing..... I'm not sure I can argue too much with this, although again, weight, packaging, efficiency etc etc all come into it.

 

If I was a new F1 team owner, entering F1 next year and had to pick from these two, for customer supply, at the same price point, I have to admit I'd probably pick the Honda if I had no other data available to me other than watching F1 on telly this year (Though that would make me a pretty rubbish team owner.... hell, I'd probably be suckered into a sponsorship deal with Rich Energy)



#5208 Viryfan

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 19:15

There is no proof that Honda engine is better than the Renault as of now.

 

Since they took their Spec 3/4 engines in Belgium, they're still on the same engine.

 

The very same engine which enabled Danny Ric and Hulkenberg to end up in front of Albon at Monza.

 

Practice in Belgium + Monza + Singapore + Sochi + Suzuka + Mexico + USA + Brazil + Abu Dhabi.

 

This is the first time that a Renault can go a full engine life cycle since 2013.


Edited by Viryfan, 30 November 2019 - 19:16.


#5209 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 21:31

There is no proof that Honda engine is better than the Renault as of now.

 

Since they took their Spec 3/4 engines in Belgium, they're still on the same engine.

 

The very same engine which enabled Danny Ric and Hulkenberg to end up in front of Albon at Monza.

 

Practice in Belgium + Monza + Singapore + Sochi + Suzuka + Mexico + USA + Brazil + Abu Dhabi.

 

This is the first time that a Renault can go a full engine life cycle since 2013.

 

Define "better". For Red Bull (and Toro Rosso) I'm sure they think it's better to have the Honda for free and coming fully integrated/optimised for their package rather than the Renault for 20 million coming with the frosty relationship and perennial reliability issues they had to endure for years on end, be it due to Renault's quality assurance lacking or their own non-optimised integration (cooling etc.)

 

Performance wise there is probably not so much in it between Renault and Honda right now and both have done a good job of closing the gap to Mercedes, but there is so much more to an F1 power unit than just peak performance and as an overall package taking everything into account I don't think you would find many Formula One teams opting for the Renault package. Hell, the only customer who switched to Renault with much fanfare has already signed up with another supplier, and if they could contractually they would probably end their relationship by next week rather than the end of next year.



#5210 goldenboy

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Posted 01 December 2019 - 02:54

I was really expecting a bad end to the season for Honda, reliability wise. It didn't happen. I don't know if I'd say either one ended the year better than the other though.

But credit where credit is due. Honda overall edged out renault engine this year as a package.

#5211 pryanjack

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 10:25

I was really expecting a bad end to the season for Honda, reliability wise. It didn't happen. I don't know if I'd say either one ended the year better than the other though.

But credit where credit is due. Honda overall edged out renault engine this year as a package.

 

How do you work that out? RB won more races and scored more points last year with a Renault PU? What facts or data tells you that the Honda package is slightly better?



#5212 rocque

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 11:20

 

VTT monster for 15 million euros

Only the top three teams own one of these VTT monsters. Cost: at least 15 million euros. Open to the top. Renault is considering to purchase such a system until 2021 (sic!). If you want to keep up with the top teams, this is almost essential. It's probably no coincidence that Renault and its McLaren customer are only in 8th and 9th place in reliability statistics. They have a total of seven of the eleven technical failures to answer for.

https://www.auto-mot...verlaessigkeit/

https://twitter.com/...687330690052096

 

Honda >> Renault

Maybe it will be a good engine in 2021, but I'm also sure it's going to be the worst engine on the grid. McLaren abandoned them pretty quickly.

Well done Cyril.


Edited by rocque, 05 December 2019 - 11:31.


#5213 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 14:23

How do you work that out? RB won more races and scored more points last year with a Renault PU? What facts or data tells you that the Honda package is slightly better?

Geez, perhaps that has something to do with a top driver leaving their team and being replaced by someone who failed and later on a rookie, but I’m sure you knew this and still went ahead with that remarkable question. Anyway, have a look at what happened to Renault’s point tally compared to last year’s, as the team that undeniably improved their driver lineup and see how much that argument makes sense.

I think we can all agree that both Renault and Honda’s power unit improved substantially over the year. I would agree with goldenboy that Honda’s package was the better one over the year all things considered, but that’s maybe more debatable and subjective.

Edited by FullOppositeLock, 06 December 2019 - 08:09.


#5214 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 22:37

Cyril:

"According to our measurements, Ferrari and we have the most powerful engine in the race. Then comes Honda, and then Mercedes."


https://www.auto-mot...osse-evolution/

#5215 ARTGP

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 03:21

Cyril:

"According to our measurements, Ferrari and we have the most powerful engine in the race. Then comes Honda, and then Mercedes."


https://www.auto-mot...osse-evolution/

 

 

Everyone's "measurements" are bs, it's common knowledge that you cannot extract engine power accurately from GPS data.

 

 

The teams rely on GPS measurements. But there are variables that have to be taken into account: the output level, the condition of the tires. "The engine power is really hard to filter out. In the race, the opponent sometimes has lee, benefits from DRS, fully attacks or spares the tires, "explains Mercedes Motor CEO Andy Cowell.

 

Edited by ARTGP, 06 December 2019 - 03:21.


#5216 pryanjack

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 03:38

Geez, perhaps that has something to do with a top driver replacing their team and being replaced by someone who failed and later on a rookie, but I’m sure you knew this and still went ahead with that remarkable question. Anyway, have a look at what happened to Renault’s point tally compared to last year’s, as the team that undeniably improved their driver lineup and see how much that argument makes sense.

I think we can all agree that both Renault and Honda’s power unit improved substantially over the year. I would agree with goldenboy that Honda’s package was the better one over the year all things considered, but that’s maybe more debatable and subjective.

 

exactly ... "debatable and subjective". Yes, Honda have improved greatly and kudos to them, but saying one is better than the other is entirely subjective, which is entirely the point I am making.



#5217 Reddington

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 04:30

exactly ... "debatable and subjective". Yes, Honda have improved greatly and kudos to them, but saying one is better than the other is entirely subjective, which is entirely the point I am making.

 

Yet reliability is very measurable, and at least Honda did well in that aspect.

 

Haters/doubters will say Honda used more engines than allowed, but that was for development purposes, not reliability. I know that at STR they did get 7 race weekends out of the engine. And sure, if you know you are going to use more allocations, you will be able to run it a bit harsher, giving a benefit, but that only is valid in a comparison if the competition would have engine issues regarding reliability at the end of their lifespan. But if, let's say Renault, had reliability issues throughout the first half of the season (they definitely improved reliability at Renault in the second half), then that argument goes out the window.

 

Regarding outright power: I have no idea about who is the most powerful. And which one is most drivable. Which one has the best behavior at low revs, which one will have the best power at top speed, which has best fuel consumption. I doubt any of us really know, it's a matter of subjective personal opinions based on what we see, hear and read, and, let's be honest: personal preferences. But definitely not based on a dyno-printout.

But one thing I know is that Honda was better in matters of reliability, and that's worth something in my book. It's what I was fearing most before this year, but Honda certainly impressed me there.

 

And that's not as debatable or subjective as power output in my opinion, but still counts for who is doing well.


Edited by Reddington, 06 December 2019 - 04:35.


#5218 taran

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 10:50

Personally, I feel that both manufacturers have made enormous strides. Honda probably more than Renault considering where they were coming from.

 

I did notice Verstappen complain about driveability issues with his engine more than any other driver.



#5219 f1rules

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 19:30

Chester leaving renault

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#5220 Neno

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 20:13

https://twitter.com/...8246951936?s=09

 

You can go find my posts in 2018 where I called this in case of disastrous season. Thank God. 



#5221 Marklar

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 20:14

Cyril:

"According to our measurements, Ferrari and we have the most powerful engine in the race. Then comes Honda, and then Mercedes."


https://www.auto-mot...osse-evolution/

I like that both Red Bull and Mercedes put Renault last in the meantime

#5222 gowebber

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Posted 14 December 2019 - 00:08

Good article by Mark Hughes on what was wrong with the car this year, personnel changes and what Renault are doing to improve.

https://www.motorspo...t-plan-get-song


Edited by gowebber, 14 December 2019 - 00:08.


#5223 Lemojn

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Posted 22 January 2020 - 20:54

Good interview with Engine Technical Director Rémi Taffin.

 

https://www.auto-mot...nault-motor-f1/



#5224 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 23 January 2020 - 07:21

Taffin reckons Renault is second in the power stakes, behind Ferrari but in front of Mercedes although they are all roughly around the same kw mark (within 5-10 kw from each other). He reckons Honda is slightly behind the other three, about 15-20 kw (20-30 bhp). Interesting.