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Renault Technical Thread (R.S.19)


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#4901 rootten

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 08:19

I just hopped over tot he f1technical forum and they noted that the Renault car is now the only one without a "boomerang" in the bargeboard area. So why does Renault stick with something when the entire grid uses what the top teams have used?

They also think the extreme rake is the reason they have inconsistent aerodynamic downforce and suspect the design team tried to get as much downforce out of the car in stead of focussing on solid consistent downforce.

 

Yeap, I raised this point many times already

 

Enstone chassis development team seems soooo slow adopting other designs into their own

 

I get that all new things need to fit within a package that they already have and that all things need to work together but F1 is as much about copying others as developing on your own. Especially when whole grid already adopted this solution



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#4902 gowebber

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 08:35

I don’t think calling out fellow posters for being critical of Renault is constructive like. I can’t speak for others, but I don’t particularly enjoy Renault failing to live up to their potential. I like both Renault drivers and would love more teams being able to battle for podiums and wins, so I resent the notion that I am here to gloat or something. I respect and even admire your (gowebber’s) relentless optimism, but when I feel what you post is wrong I will challenge it. This is a discussion forum not a Renault happy clapper community, so as long as we can have a respectful discussion about things (which I feel we are), then it’s up to everybody individually if they want to read, contribute to or ignore this thread, but since I take an active interest in the team and its drivers I will happily comment on how I see things thank you very much. I hope some day soon Renault prove me wrong and compete for wins on merit with Daniel at the wheel and if that happens I will gladly come in here and congratulate you and discuss how they pulled it off.

 

Its only certain posters that I feel are trying to create drama and have a track record of this sort of thing its not pulled out of thin air. Yeah its actually pretty sad to see Renault not living up to thier potential and its certainly not fun hearing the constant negative jibes and basically coming across at times as kicking the team while they are down. To me thats not constructive. I think most of us know where they are going wrong and would prefer to discuss what we think they can do to improve rather than just saying stuff like the car is a pos, the team are useless and will quit etc. I'm sure most folk at Viry and Enstone are working thier hardest to try and solve the problems occurring.

 

It doesn't have to be a happy clappy community of course but I feel at times some of the tone in posts and general feeling has come across as a bit toxic and also condescending. Hopefully we can all bring it back to a more respective and constructive nature and that also obviously includes myself as well if thats how its coming across.

 

A little more positivity at times for even some of the smaller things that the team have done right would help make these threads alot more pleasant because at the moment there is not alot of joy thats for sure. I hope they come out after the break and give us something to cheer about because its been way too few and far between.


Edited by gowebber, 08 August 2019 - 08:37.


#4903 FPV GTHO

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 08:36

Depends. Let’s take Red Bull’s situation. Let’s assume theoretically you could optmise the car for clean air and gain a tenth but lose the ability of following closely without hurting tyre life badly or go the other way. If you think that one tenth doesn’t regularly elevate you above Mercedes and Ferrari in qualifying trim, wouldn’t you be better of forfeiting the one tenth of ultimate lap time for a car better suited to making up positions by on track overtakes or strategic flexibility through better tyre life? I think you would. Of course when your power unit gets stronger and qualifying ahead becomes more viable, you would probably change that philosophy to cater for the new situation.


I've seen this dirty air design theory be brought up and subsequently debunked through the media more times than I can remember. You've given one example, but without real data it's just a suggestion. I could just as easily suggest a tenth of performance increase in traffic is worth half a second decrease in clear air.

#4904 Alburaq

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 09:50

The Mclaren Renault comparison is interesting in many ways.
Both teams had a very similar aero problem in 2018 but one team built a whole new car in 2019 while the other built the same car and grafted a superficial fake copy of the fancy raised Ferrari017 sidepods onto it.
One team increased the distance between the front wheels and the sidepods and used the raised Ferreri style sidepods to puch them beackward further to put them in a cleaner airflow, while the other team didnt puch them at all. The worst part is that every team who copied them since 2018 did that, but if you look closely Renault did not.
And that's not the only reason they look like fake and half assed copies of the Ferrari pods. If you look closely, only the first 10cm are Ferrari-like but the rest are classic sidepods with fat sides and underside...
 
Thats one of the 2000 reasons the aero developpement at Enstone looks excessively cautious, very timorous and often half-assed. And it seems it was a deliberate descision, remember what abisteboul said before the start of the season.
 

"We know that Enstone, things will take time. F1, by definition, is evolutionary and iterative, meaning that when you build a car, you take the car of the previous year and improve it on the basis of the weaknesses you could identify. on track.
This reality is that we will put a little time, a few seasons, to level the very best.
We are in a philosophy of wanting to control what we do using solutions a little conventional because we want to master things, take them step by step.
There are teams that are more radical in their choices, but we know it.
These are guidelines that can pay but can also burn your wings.
We are on an extremely constructed approach."


 
The aerodynamic problem Renault has might be simply inherent to the design they are using since 2018 (or even 2017) and to get rid of it they might simply have to change that design, like Mclaren did; change the turning vanes under the nose (which barely change on the Enstons cars), the T-tray and bargeboards, deflectors, sidepods etc. Abiteboul kinda aknowleged that lately.


Edited by Alburaq, 08 August 2019 - 10:17.


#4905 rootten

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 09:56

And add to that comments that they will bring bigger changes to the car only for next year:

 

 

 

"Clearly the factory in Enstone and the aero group is tasked to find some solutions, both short term and long term, because not everything will be possible in the short term, let's be honest. But that doesn't mean that there won't be any improvement in the short term also."

Abiteboul admitted that there were unlikely to be any significant improvement until after the summer break, and that much of the focus for the rest of the season will be learning for 2020.

"Changes are coming, but not an awful lot will done before the break. I would prefer to have some substantial changes, when that will be possible, and also a long-term plan, including next year, rather than trying to rush something into the next race which is not going to make a difference.

 

https://www.motorspo...20-car/4500354/



#4906 Alburaq

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 10:10

Another typical half assed copiage by Enstone: the raised front whishbones: Every team on the grid who copied the STR-Merc raised top whishbone to clear the way underneath them has aligned the steering rod with one of the whishbones to have the cleanest possible airflow there. But Renault is the only team to retain the steering in the same place as 2018.  :)
 
The siepod underside is well visible here but the pic is misleading ragrding the sidepod longitudinal position because of the different angles, proportions etc. The intakes barely change position actually.
 
The step by step approach has some benefits, but you're too slow Enstone, and other teams discover and learn new things faster than you.
 
barcel13.jpg


Edited by Alburaq, 08 August 2019 - 10:16.


#4907 statman

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 10:17

And add to that comments that they will bring bigger changes to the car only for next year:

 

 

https://www.motorspo...20-car/4500354/

 

ah, the usual 'we're busy with next year'. Every year the same soundbites. And the journalists just copy his stuff without any scrutiny. When will they push back and hold this guy's feet to the fire and remind him of all those broken promises year after year?

 

Cyril reminds me of the villain in Inspector Gadget: Next time Formula 1, next time!



#4908 A3

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 10:21

Its only certain posters that I feel are trying to create drama and have a track record of this sort of thing its not pulled out of thin air. Yeah its actually pretty sad to see Renault not living up to thier potential and its certainly not fun hearing the constant negative jibes and basically coming across at times as kicking the team while they are down. To me thats not constructive.


Who said it needs to be constructive. I call them as I see them. But when certain posters run out of arguments they accuse other posters of crapping on Renault and Dan.

I still think Dan made a huge mistake and I really don't have a dislike for Renault. But they are crap and they don't seem to be capable of changing. And I blame that clown Abiteboul and the higher management for falling for his false promises. They should have fired him a long time ago.

Man I loved this moment from Drive to Survive. Look at that face on Cyril. And then Horner just walked past him and shook Vasseur's hand like Cyril didn't even exist.
EyM62e1.png
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psAKOzC.png?1

Edited by A3, 08 August 2019 - 10:25.


#4909 gowebber

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 10:31

Who said it needs to be constructive. I call them as I see them. But when certain posters run out of arguments they accuse other posters of crapping on Renault and Dan.

I still think Dan made a huge mistake and I really don't have a dislike for Renault. But they are crap and they don't seem to be capable of changing. And I blame that clown Abiteboul and the higher management for falling for his false promises. They should have fired him a long time ago.

Man I loved this moment from Drive to Survive. Look at that face on Cyril. And then Horner just walked past him and shook Vasseur's hand like Cyril didn't even exist.
 

 

Eh?  Your basically crapping on them now. Cyril is just the mouthpiece you do realise. It obviously goes deeper than that. Posts like this are not constructive and just fueling the fire with more Rbr vs Renault needling, besides we have basically heard it a zillion times already. It's getting old with your usual few cheap digs and then some sort of backhanded compliment to try and make it seem all fine and dandy. Don't blame people if they get annoyed.


Edited by gowebber, 08 August 2019 - 14:18.


#4910 Alburaq

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 11:10

edit

Edited by Alburaq, 08 August 2019 - 11:30.


#4911 Alburaq

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 11:30


ah, the usual 'we're busy with next year'. Every year the same soundbites. And the journalists just copy his stuff without any scrutiny. When will they push back and hold this guy's feet to the fire and remind him of all those broken promises year after year?
 
Cyril reminds me of the villain in Inspector Gadget: Next time Formula 1, next time!
 
We all know how Abiteboul is*, but he said before the season that Renault will have a conservative aproach with the chassis (the interview answer I wrote above) and an ambitious one with the PU... so he is correct.
Basically they retained the same philosophy for 2019, then they discovered that is flawed mid season in 2019 which is late, and now they have to change it in 2020, one year before the big regulation change...
The first point is to know whether that's a good approach or not; that step by step approach... "first the engine, then the chassis newt year", "first the internal aero, then the external aero next year", "first a half assed raised whishbone, then a fully raised suspension", "first we change the wings because of the new rules, then the rest of the car next year"...
They should have worked hard to change their aero design in 2019, like Mclaren... but They're too timorous and too slow and always a step too late.
Having said that, the car isnt entierly shi**y, it tends to work very well when the temps arent too high for example... 
 *so your just repeating the same "Abitboul is overpromising" song.


#4912 rootten

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 14:01

On the topic of boomerangs, here's a nice video explaining the idea behind it: https://www.motorspo...erangs/4510139/

 

Of course only Renault is not featured in this video 



#4913 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 14:40

I think most of us know where they are going wrong and would prefer to discuss what we think they can do to improve rather than just saying stuff like the car is a pos,

 

I don't blame the team for operational or strategy errors, that is fine and no issue.

 

What the team are doing wrong is precisely that the car is a POS.

 

Why is it a POS?  Surely a racing car designed by a works teams should handle superbly, brake superbly, ride kerbs superbly, have consistent and predictable aerodynamics, superb aero balance and have impeccable traction even if it is off the pace.  These are not esoteric items, these items are race car design 101

 

If the car is slow, but handles beautifully that would be absolutely fine.  However, the car does not handle beautifully... How is it possible that Renault Sport F1's car does not have good racing car basics!?

 

Surely that is the crux of the matter.  If they couldn't configure the car's aerodynamic map properly for this season (downforce vs ride height/pitch/roll/steering angle) , what makes you think they will know to do it for next season?  :confused:  

 

 

It doesn't have to be a happy clappy community of course but I feel at times some of the tone in posts and general feeling has come across as a bit toxic and also condescending. 

 

Have you not seen empty promises of teams such as Jaguar and Toyota before?  We are improving this, we've got that coming along, this and that...  This car will be the hot ticket.  Net result: bupkis.

 

Scepticism is crucial when evaluating promises that have not yet been turned into actual results on the race track.  :)


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 08 August 2019 - 14:52.


#4914 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 14:51

 Rbr vs Renault needling, 

 

It's no use to compare to RBR.  Renault's benchmark is McLaren.  How did McLaren find twice as much average improvement in laptime than Renault!?  Why did not Renault do the same or better?  :)


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 08 August 2019 - 14:52.


#4915 Amz964

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 15:02

I admire your optimism gowebber it's nice to see but the team on the chassis side have been quite poor. As I mentioned before I am sure all the guys and girls at enstone work very very hard but they have produced not a great car overall that's not consistent and not easy to set up.

Just having a look at this thread and the F1 technical thread there is a few interesting things. Firstly I am sure this was the case although correct me if I am wrong is that Renault was one of the teams that didn't want the changes for this year with the front wings, rear wing bargeboards etc. I believe they didn't want this because of the extreme rake philosophy the car has this year which dosent suit this years regulations as much. The higher rake also can cause issues with cars aero if not managed properly which maybe the changes to regulations have only made the issue worse. I think our car has more peak downforce than the McLaren for example however because of the high rake etc it's shifts around way too much causing this instability when the car goes round long corners however the previous two cars had this issue as well so I might be completely wrong with this. Back to the point it's no point having a car which might have good peak downforce levels if it can't be utilized consistently.

I think although don't know if possible this year that they should maybe lower the rake of the car to last year and see if they get more consistent aero even if at it's peak it's not as good. Just got to hope they have some bits in place so they can savage the car and the season for the rest of the year.

Edited by Amz964, 08 August 2019 - 15:04.


#4916 CPR

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 15:28

I've no idea if the current R.S 19 has a similar aero issue to last year's McLaren. It might do but I have no confidence in being able to predict aerodynamics just by looking at something. Personally I suspect that it's more likely that it's the suspension that's lacking - ie the aero platform is unstable due to the suspension not behaving as expected. It could be a combination of both issues of course. Or something else entirely.

 

That being said, when McLaren discovered their issue last year they basically stopped development of upgrades and instead started bringing test parts to run on Friday to help diagnose the issue. Even then it was a long time before they fully understood the issue and they realised it would take a B-spec car to fix the problem and that they'd run out of time for that. Unless Renault's technical team are quite confident that they understand the problem, I think it might be worth their time taking a similar approach - stop development and focus on properly understanding the issue. While that won't help results this year much at all, it should help avoiding the same problem next year.



#4917 gowebber

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 21:56

I don't blame the team for operational or strategy errors, that is fine and no issue.

 

What the team are doing wrong is precisely that the car is a POS.

 

Why is it a POS?  Surely a racing car designed by a works teams should handle superbly, brake superbly, ride kerbs superbly, have consistent and predictable aerodynamics, superb aero balance and have impeccable traction even if it is off the pace.  These are not esoteric items, these items are race car design 101

 

If the car is slow, but handles beautifully that would be absolutely fine.  However, the car does not handle beautifully... How is it possible that Renault Sport F1's car does not have good racing car basics!?

 

Surely that is the crux of the matter.  If they couldn't configure the car's aerodynamic map properly for this season (downforce vs ride height/pitch/roll/steering angle) , what makes you think they will know to do it for next season?  :confused:  

 

 

 

Have you not seen empty promises of teams such as Jaguar and Toyota before?  We are improving this, we've got that coming along, this and that...  This car will be the hot ticket.  Net result: bupkis.

 

Scepticism is crucial when evaluating promises that have not yet been turned into actual results on the race track.  :)

 

 

Yeah I don't agree though that its a POS, way too harsh in my eyes. The WIlliams you could call a pos if anything.  I don't think any car not even the Merc handles superbly etc all the time thats an unattainable goal. I'd much prefer a car that is fast but at times difficult to drive than one thats slow but handles great. A good driver can often get around those difficulties to an extent and Renault has 2 of the best in the business.

 

Like I said before looking at the trend of the last 3 races the car has been faster than McLaren at Silverstone and Germany and seemingly on a par on race pace with with McLaren at Hungary with Dans pace on the hards and softs. If thats what you call a pos then you would have to call the McLaren the same which is silly. It really hasn't been all that bad the last 3 races looking at race pace but obviously we all wanted Renault to be comfortably in front by now which hasn't happened and is disappointing.

 

It's no use to compare to RBR.  Renault's benchmark is McLaren.  How did McLaren find twice as much average improvement in laptime than Renault!?  Why did not Renault do the same or better?  :)

 

Yeah I'm not really comparing to RBR in car performance etc just making reference to the toxic nature that has occurred at times previously after RBR vs Renault jokes start flying about. Remember also McLaren started much further back than Renault so the improvement in laptime is going to be much bigger when looking at where they stand currently.

 

I admire your optimism gowebber it's nice to see but the team on the chassis side have been quite poor. As I mentioned before I am sure all the guys and girls at enstone work very very hard but they have produced not a great car overall that's not consistent and not easy to set up.

Just having a look at this thread and the F1 technical thread there is a few interesting things. Firstly I am sure this was the case although correct me if I am wrong is that Renault was one of the teams that didn't want the changes for this year with the front wings, rear wing bargeboards etc. I believe they didn't want this because of the extreme rake philosophy the car has this year which dosent suit this years regulations as much. The higher rake also can cause issues with cars aero if not managed properly which maybe the changes to regulations have only made the issue worse. I think our car has more peak downforce than the McLaren for example however because of the high rake etc it's shifts around way too much causing this instability when the car goes round long corners however the previous two cars had this issue as well so I might be completely wrong with this. Back to the point it's no point having a car which might have good peak downforce levels if it can't be utilized consistently.

I think although don't know if possible this year that they should maybe lower the rake of the car to last year and see if they get more consistent aero even if at it's peak it's not as good. Just got to hope they have some bits in place so they can savage the car and the season for the rest of the year.

 

Thanks I am a positive person generally and prefer to focus on those things rather than get mired down with negativity. I find it hard being around alot of negativity especially when it seems pointless and not constructive but I'm passionate about F1, the team, drivers,  and Dan obviously in particular and really want to see them do well which is why I'm posting all the time. Not to mention I also enjoy having some good banter at times with various other folk on these forums too.

 

I agree the chassis side has been poor and needs alot of work. I thought i did mention that a number of times but like I said even so thats not where the bulk of points lost has been so far. I do hope after this break though we see some big improvements because what was estimated before France with that big upgrade for example never really materialized at all in the chassis area and was a big letdown. If they can get some decent improvements on the chassis side then combined with the new spec-c PU its possible they could make a decent leap forward.


Edited by gowebber, 08 August 2019 - 22:10.


#4918 Amz964

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 22:27

Thanks I am a positive person generally and prefer to focus on those things rather than get mired down with negativity. I find it hard being around alot of negativity especially when it seems pointless and not constructive but I'm passionate about F1, the team, drivers, and Dan obviously in particular and really want to see them do well which is why I'm posting all the time. Not to mention I also enjoy having some good banter at times with various other folk on these forums too.

I agree the chassis side has been poor and needs alot of work. I thought i did mention that a number of times but like I said even so thats not where the bulk of points lost has been so far. I do hope after this break though we see some big improvements because what was estimated before France with that big upgrade for example never really materialized at all in the chassis area and was a big letdown. If they can get some decent improvements on the chassis side then combined with the new spec-c PU its possible they could make a decent leap forward.


Fair play to you fully understand that and it's good to see you are positive and optimistic. I will admit I am one of the ones who has displayed a lot of negativity in the thread and trust me I don't want to but is very frustrating to see as I have been a big supporter of this team in all its disguises since 2004 when I was 8 years old and want to see us back to winning ways and doing well I know it won't happen overnight but better progress should have been made by now and it's getting to a lot of us here as we haven't really progressed in terms of the gap to the front since 2017 when it was looking on a upward trajectory for the team.

Edited by Amz964, 08 August 2019 - 22:27.


#4919 gowebber

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 23:26

Fair play to you fully understand that and it's good to see you are positive and optimistic. I will admit I am one of the ones who has displayed a lot of negativity in the thread and trust me I don't want to but is very frustrating to see as I have been a big supporter of this team in all its disguises since 2004 when I was 8 years old and want to see us back to winning ways and doing well I know it won't happen overnight but better progress should have been made by now and it's getting to a lot of us here as we haven't really progressed in terms of the gap to the front since 2017 when it was looking on a upward trajectory for the team.

 

Yeah can see where your coming from there, quite understandable because it is very frustrating to see minimal progression at best but luckily its still early in that 3 year plan (if they stick to it) so still time to turn things around but they are going to have to really break the cycle of underwhelming updates which they have been able to do on the PU side so its certainly possible.



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#4920 gowebber

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 03:44

I've no idea if the current R.S 19 has a similar aero issue to last year's McLaren. It might do but I have no confidence in being able to predict aerodynamics just by looking at something. Personally I suspect that it's more likely that it's the suspension that's lacking - ie the aero platform is unstable due to the suspension not behaving as expected. It could be a combination of both issues of course. Or something else entirely.

 

That being said, when McLaren discovered their issue last year they basically stopped development of upgrades and instead started bringing test parts to run on Friday to help diagnose the issue. Even then it was a long time before they fully understood the issue and they realised it would take a B-spec car to fix the problem and that they'd run out of time for that. Unless Renault's technical team are quite confident that they understand the problem, I think it might be worth their time taking a similar approach - stop development and focus on properly understanding the issue. While that won't help results this year much at all, it should help avoiding the same problem next year.

 

Yeah thats what I have been saying for a while too there seems to be balance issues with the suspension at times in particular loading and unloading in and out of corners. Still it doesn't seem as bad on high speed tracks like Silverstone as we were quite quick there nor lower speed corner tracks like Canada.  Could it possibly be just related more to tracks with medium speed corners which would explain alot and the talk of the car often feeling on a bit of a knife edge at times and difficult to drive. As pointed out by one of the guys when we were in discord live chat during Hungary the car at times through some of those corners looked very skittish which could be another indication of that sort of suspension issue behaviour. 

 

Also there is obvious tyre heating issues as well which are really hurting qualifying especially in hot conditions at times.


Edited by gowebber, 09 August 2019 - 05:46.


#4921 Quickshifter

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 05:16

2019 is hugely important for 2020 as most teams will be focusing on 2021 car with greater and greater percentage of resources directed towards the same. Majority of the teams will be pursuing a continuation of current philosophy for 2020 as the regulations will change for 2021 and there is no point designing an all new car.

Horner was saying recently as to how 2020 cars will have a lot of carry over over concepts from 2019 and hence they will be developing the car deep in to the season. Seidl has said they will be bringing updates after summer break. This is where Renault will suffer post summer break in my opinion as they have to fight on an additional front of understanding their current car when compared to Mclaren who have a very good understanding with their car concept and are hitting the mark with their upgrades.

Renault don't have the budget of the top three and i am curious to see how they will tackle this, not just post summer break but also next year's car. It's a tricky situation. 2021 regulations, 2020 car and a 2019 car they seem to be struggling to understand, will be curious to see how they tackle this.

Edited by Quickshifter, 09 August 2019 - 05:17.


#4922 Reddington

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 06:19

This Quickshifter!
You are spot on.

And 2020 is year 5 of the 6 year plan?
And year 6 is new cars. How do they expect to be up front then? Why will they suddenly be the best at mastering the new rules compared to the big three? You can hear the excuses coming miles away: we have to start from a white sheet of paper.

2021: new 4 year plan. (That’s if the board gives them that chance at all)

Edited by Reddington, 09 August 2019 - 06:27.


#4923 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 07:49

2019 is hugely important for 2020 as most teams will be focusing on 2021 car with greater and greater percentage of resources directed towards the same. Majority of the teams will be pursuing a continuation of current philosophy for 2020 as the regulations will change for 2021 and there is no point designing an all new car.

Horner was saying recently as to how 2020 cars will have a lot of carry over over concepts from 2019 and hence they will be developing the car deep in to the season. Seidl has said they will be bringing updates after summer break. This is where Renault will suffer post summer break in my opinion as they have to fight on an additional front of understanding their current car when compared to Mclaren who have a very good understanding with their car concept and are hitting the mark with their upgrades.

Renault don't have the budget of the top three and i am curious to see how they will tackle this, not just post summer break but also next year's car. It's a tricky situation. 2021 regulations, 2020 car and a 2019 car they seem to be struggling to understand, will be curious to see how they tackle this.


Yeah, good point. It’s vital that they understand what is causing their car to perform so unpredictably, not just for this year but also for the next. 2021 will be a clean slate, but you wouldn’t want to start designing that car without understanding such a fundamental thing properly either if you can help it, especially since as has been said this has been something previous incarnations of RS have suffered from as well.

#4924 BCM

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 08:28

Renault don't have the budget of the top three and i am curious to see how they will tackle this,

 

No need to be curious. They'll continue to fail whilst they aren't prepared to invest at least as much as the top 3. If anything, they'll suffer even more by having to split their resources between two sets of regulations with their smaller engineering teams.



#4925 Alburaq

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 10:06

I've no idea if the current R.S 19 has a similar aero issue to last year's McLaren.

It might do but I have no confidence in being able to predict aerodynamics just by looking at something. Personally I suspect that it's more likely that it's the suspension that's lacking - ie the aero platform is unstable due to the suspension not behaving as expected. It could be a combination of both issues of course. Or something else entirely.

The RS.18 had a very similar aero issue as the MCL32, it's not speculation, it's official, the drivers talked about that many times. And the RS.19 has the same issue as the RS.18, so yes --> the 2018 MCL and 2019 RSF1 have a similar problem. The airflow "stalls" somewhere at the rear of the car at certain speeds, certains steering angles and certain rake angles. I Dont know if the causes were/are the same for MCL and RSF1. 
Mclaren has identified the causes and made huge changes to the car. Renault? I dont know if they know the causes but thy definitely didnt change a lot of their 2018 concept.

I bet the 18 and 19 RS monocoques are identical under that lightly modified outer shell, hence the half assed sidepods and similar front sudepension/steering packaging with a half assed raised whishbone.

This team has still a huge room for improvement. Despite all this immobilism, they beat Mclaren a couple of gp ago and qualified only a second behind pole position with this car... but in slightly colder conditions.

 

Hopfully they find a solution for the high temps first... and make some efforts on the chassis side in 2020... They definitely dont lack ressources compared to RP, STR or Alfa. And in 2010 they didnt have unlimitd ressources but their developpemnt rate was incredible compared to this, same for 2012 and 2013...

What they lack is ambition, courage, new blood. As Abiteboul said, their approach is too cautious and as Budkowski noted, many engineers at Enstone must change their old habits a bit...
 
 


Edited by Alburaq, 09 August 2019 - 10:20.


#4926 rootten

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 10:21

No need to be curious. They'll continue to fail whilst they aren't prepared to invest at least as much as the top 3. If anything, they'll suffer even more by having to split their resources between two sets of regulations with their smaller engineering teams.

 

It baffles me really

 

If they want to reduce the gap to the top teams then it means that they have to develop faster than top teams and by a significant margin

 

Let's say Mercedes finds 1 sec over the winter, it means Renault needs to find 1.5 seconds over the same period of time

 

How do they want to acheve this will less resources and smaller budget?  :confused:

 

So far they showed that they are slow even at copying others...

 

The asnwer is they can't. They will never catch up

 

The only thing they can do is to strenghten their areo department, build them up to have a better understanding of the aero, and have a go at the top teams when aero rules are reset, when everybody will start from scratch.

 

2021 is their only chance



#4927 Alburaq

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 10:42

They can reduce the gap and develop faster than the best for now, like they showed in half or even most of the last gps since Monaco and especially in Silverstone where the also brought a new FW to the frensh gp package.
Obviously the last tenths will be the hardest but it's too early to talk about them now.
The other problems with this conservatism is that you may carry over the same flaws of your last car and may discover flaws that went unnotcied / or were minimal before.

The dicovery of those flaws may urge you to interrupt the developpement or stop it completely.

you have no margin and no margin for error. When you do everything perfectly you're 2 tenths faster than your opponent, but when you mislay half a tenth, yous start from the 8th line.

The lack of developpement during the season has even more obvious results, your oppoenents catch you.


Edited by Alburaq, 09 August 2019 - 11:54.


#4928 GreenMachine

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 11:19

The article in A+ bells the cat - it is the first mainstream article I have read that basically says the Cyril stuffed up the whole thing.  Like the RE story (!) you read it here first, and a long time ago at that.

 

This team is on the slide.  It seems that most of the others either have more resources and can outspend to outperform Renault, or make smarter use of their resources to outperform Renault.  Now running 6th in  WCC, best of the rest is a long way off.

 

It is probably too late, but Cyril has to go if the team is to seriously lift its game.



#4929 Gambelli

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 11:59

The article in A+ bells the cat - it is the first mainstream article I have read that basically says the Cyril stuffed up the whole thing.  Like the RE story (!) you read it here first, and a long time ago at that.

 

This team is on the slide.  It seems that most of the others either have more resources and can outspend to outperform Renault, or make smarter use of their resources to outperform Renault.  Now running 6th in  WCC, best of the rest is a long way off.

 

It is probably too late, but Cyril has to go if the team is to seriously lift its game.

 

I'm not superstitious, I don't believe in mind reading or anything like that, but it just feels like, at this stage, looking through a very narrow viewpoint of course, that Renault might be close to pulling the plug.  Our mutterings in here, and now Autosport finally publishing it's thoughts that Renault probably cant' achieve its goal, how can it not be on the minds of the Renault board.  I think this year shows it can't be done, not with a lower budget than the big guys, not with an equal budget, they would need to throw silly money at a dozen key people amongst Ferrari, Merceds, Red Bull to just start understanding what they can do differently to make the leap, and that's not even considering the gardening leave of those people.

 

The guys in posts above me all have really good points about all this, I don't think I'm the only one seeing the writing on the wall.

 

Cyril is a con man, but how can adults, supposedly business savvy adults in a position of power within Renault, allow this to continue?

 

You know the most worrying thing for me?  The amount of times Cyril has used the term 'underestimated' over the last 4 or 5 years.  The article in A+ attributes a quote to Cyril, this year, stating, yet again, that Renault 'ie Cyril' 'Underestimated' the year on year increase in spending by Mercedes.  As if Cyril through they'd get to the top, then fire people and shrink down so others could catch up?  Every facet of F1 has led in one year or another Cyril to come out and say 'Oh, we underestimated (insert part of F1 here)'

 

Sadly, if I were Renault, I'd pull the plug, put a bit more money and effort into the engine side, strike a deal with McLaren for title sponsorship, or at least partial, and get on with it, and probably save $150 million per season in the process.....

 

Oh, last thing, interesting that Autosport claims that Renaults budget went up $10 million this season, but Ricciardo cost them $20 million.... so cuts were made in other areas... if thats true, thats very damning of Renaults intent.......



#4930 Roadhouse

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 12:15

Law of diminishing returns. Decreasing the gap should be possible on a smaller budget, it's just going to get increasingly difficult once you've picked all low-hanging fruit and virtually impossible to actually close it.

 

I doubt Renault are able to do it under current management, they seem pretty arrogant to me (expecting to beat McLaren while on a smaller budget) without actually backing it with actions.

They need an all or nothing approach to compete with the top, especially on a smaller budget. Right now they're constantly postponing progress, coming up with excuses.

So if they miraculously do happen to nail the regs in 2021 they won't have the right attitude to capitalise on their advantage.

 

They're betting on a budget cap, if it won't get implemented Renault will have wasted a shitload of money without anything to show for it.



#4931 BertoC

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 12:15

Pulling the plug before the 2021 regs would make no sense and would be a disastrous decision. If in 2021 their car is a regression in terms of difference to the leaders It would be understandable and make more sense, because whoever starts 2021 with an obvious wrong concept is more or less already condemned till the end of that era.



#4932 rootten

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 12:32

Law of diminishing returns. Decreasing the gap should be possible on a smaller budget, it's just going to get increasingly difficult once you've picked all low-hanging fruit and virtually impossible to actually close it.

 

I doubt Renault are able to do it under current management, they seem pretty arrogant to me (expecting to beat McLaren while on a smaller budget) without actually backing it with actions.

They need an all or nothing approach to compete with the top, especially on a smaller budget. Right now they're constantly postponing progress, coming up with excuses.

So if they miraculously do happen to nail the regs in 2021 they won't have the right attitude to capitalise on their advantage.

 

They're betting on a budget cap, if it won't get implemented Renault will have wasted a shitload of money without anything to show for it.

 

The budget cap comes with 2021 regulations and teams will be designing their cars well before that. Abiteboul already said they are considering increasing their budget because of that



#4933 Roadhouse

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 12:51

The budget cap comes with 2021 regulations and teams will be designing their cars well before that. Abiteboul already said they are considering increasing their budget because of that

 

Oh, missed the final decision on that one.

 

They are considering an increase? Isn't it a bit late for that?



#4934 Gambelli

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 14:20

Pulling the plug before the 2021 regs would make no sense and would be a disastrous decision. If in 2021 their car is a regression in terms of difference to the leaders It would be understandable and make more sense, because whoever starts 2021 with an obvious wrong concept is more or less already condemned till the end of that era.

 

I understand your point of view here but there's no reason to think, after 3 years of not understanding this car, and on a lower budget and lower manpower, that they will have any chance of building a decent car for 2021.  You're right that maybe 2021 is close enough to allow them to stick around and give it a shot, but if i was Renault it would be an all or nothing shot, 1 year, 1 chance.

 

I'd stop developing this year's and next years cars as soon as 2021 regs were sorted, throw money at 2021 build, hell I wouldn't even build a new car for next year, I'd just leave a very small team to keep developing this one to the end of its cycle and put the rest of the money towards 2021.  Teams have shown in the past, FI in the recent past, that a well sorted previous years car can still hold its own for quite a while into the new season.

 

If they finish 8th, 9th in the championship next year but have had 1000's more man hours and $80 million more to spend on 2021 then that would be their best shot



#4935 Thatfastguy

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 08:32

I bet the 18 and 19 RS monocoques are identical under that lightly modified outer shell, hence the half assed sidepods and similar front sudepension/steering packaging with a half assed raised whishbone.


We were told this car was build from the ground up, completely new barring the powersteering (and 1 more thing I believe). In fact, Renault apparently sacrifised half their 2018 season just to focus on this car. Yet people are calling it the RS18B. Whats going on here.

#4936 Gambelli

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 17:26

We were told this car was build from the ground up, completely new barring the powersteering (and 1 more thing I believe). In fact, Renault apparently sacrifised half their 2018 season just to focus on this car. Yet people are calling it the RS18B. Whats going on here.

 

Exactly, I think we were all saying that in Feb when it was unveiled....



#4937 TheMessiah

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 19:12

We were told this car was build from the ground up, completely new barring the powersteering (and 1 more thing I believe). In fact, Renault apparently sacrifised half their 2018 season just to focus on this car. Yet people are calling it the RS18B. Whats going on here.

 

If you don't understand the issue with your current car then you will never fix it. That is why McLaren carried on all last season bringing parts to test even if it wasn't possible to race the parts. You have to know what's going on otherwise you will never get a handle on it.



#4938 mwf1

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 14:58

Haha why not take all these suggestions and email them to Renault, maybe they cant see the trees for the forest



#4939 Gambelli

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 19:22

Haha why not take all these suggestions and email them to Renault, maybe they cant see the trees for the forest

 

...I'm surprised Nick Chester isn't on here under a pseudonym saying "so, does anyone know whats wrong with our, sorry, um, Renault's car? it sure does have some issues, we should talk about ways we, sorry, they, can fix it"



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#4940 FPV GTHO

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 23:51

...I'm surprised Nick Chester isn't on here under a pseudonym saying "so, does anyone know whats wrong with our, sorry, um, Renault's car? it sure does have some issues, we should talk about ways we, sorry, they, can fix it"


More likely on F1 Technical

"Car slow, pliz halp"

#4941 Booky36

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 07:47

Cyril and Chester are out at the end of the year,  if not before..


Edited by Booky36, 13 August 2019 - 08:09.


#4942 eREr

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 12:25

Cyril and Chester are out at the end of the year,  if not before..

 

Really hope you are right. But I'm afraid this is just wishful thinking. I'm sure Cyril will stay, but it is clear that Chester and his product is under heavy attack. Hope something happens. And very soon.



#4943 BCM

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 12:50

Given Cyril's track record, he'll get rid of Chester and hire Lowe as his replacement.



#4944 Lemojn

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 23:00

It makes me feel a bit uneasy to call for someone to be fired when we're not privy to what exactly is going on in Enstone, but admittedly Chester is chassis technical director so has to take at least some of the blame.  :|

 

 

I hope they actually have good candidates to replace him with though.



#4945 FPV GTHO

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 01:22

Hopefully not Eric Boullier

#4946 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 07:10

They should jump back in time and keep Vasseur instead of Cyril...



#4947 statman

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 10:37

Cyril and Chester are out at the end of the year,  if not before..

 

It would be better for Renault if Cyril and his PR speak would leave but I'm not so sure it's going to happen:

 

http://www.motorspor...d-leave-renault

 

Cyril Abiteboul had been made MD of Renault Sport in 2014, following the demise of Caterham, where he’d been team principal. His family connections run deep within Renault and he was instrumental in persuading the parent company to go ahead with the purchase of Enstone. When this happened at the end of 2015, he was tasked also with re-integrating the two factories.



#4948 speedx

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 10:45

Next big update 4 or 5 races before the end of the season!

It doesn't look good...


https://www.auto-mot...onschlussspurt/


" In Belgium and Monza, the usual updates come to the RS19. Smaller wings for less drag. The big all-rounder Renault plans for the season final spurt. The plan is to fire a final major upgrade four or five races before the end. "It is in the wind tunnel and still needs to be approved," reveals chassis director Nick Chester."

#4949 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 20:56

Oh, last thing, interesting that Autosport claims that Renaults budget went up $10 million this season, but Ricciardo cost them $20 million.... so cuts were made in other areas... if thats true, thats very damning of Renaults intent.......

 

How so?  :)   Why should Renault spend excessively?

 

Renault are not in F1 to win at any cost.  They are in F1 to be prudent and to achieve  modest marketing and brand promotion targets AFAIK, winning does not appear to be Renault's objective -- why begrude a Renault team who are happy to compete for the spirit of racing, instead of the ruthless win-at-all-costs mantra.

 

 

Given Cyril's track record, he'll get rid of Chester and hire Lowe as his replacement.

 

Lowe is a smart chap.  He coded the software for Williams active suspension.  :)   :up:

 

Perhaps Williams problem was simply improper aerodynamic correlation between design (CFD/wind tunnel) and reality, as opposed to bad ideas.


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 August 2019 - 21:01.


#4950 Reddington

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 00:55

Lowe is a smart chap. He coded the software for Williams active suspension.

Yes, but writing software 28 years ago doesn’t mean he would be good in this role, now would he?

The political power struggle between Abiteboul and Vasseur was won by someone incompetent who had personal ties with the Renault board, and was lost by the man who would have Renault up fighting with the big boys one or two years ago.
That was Renault’s biggest mistake in my book.

Edited by Reddington, 16 August 2019 - 00:55.