58 replies to this topic

[gowebber]

Interesting comments from Helmut.

"Max Verstappen could have avoided his collision with Red Bull teammate Daniel Ricciardo at last year's Azerbaijan Grand Prix, according to the team's motorsport advisor Dr Helmut Marko."

"Verstappen could have avoided the accident, since Ricciardo was too fast," Marko told Motorsport.com.

https://www.gpfans.c...rdo-baku-crash/

Edited by gowebber, 22 January 2019 - 07:04.

[A3]

Awesome. I'm getting my popcorn.

So Marko says Ric would have never made the corner, that's what he means with "too fast".

He had not made the turn. He should have used the exit strip. Max should have gone to the side. But instead we got a scandal."

Seems to me the translation is just a bit poor.


It was Max's fault anyway, I think most people already agreed on that.

Edited by A3, 22 January 2019 - 07:17.

[Maxioos]

Interesting comments from Helmut.

"Max Verstappen could have avoided his collision with Red Bull teammate Daniel Ricciardo at last year's Azerbaijan Grand Prix, according to the team's motorsport advisor Dr Helmut Marko."

"Verstappen could have avoided the accident, since Ricciardo was too fast," Marko told Motorsport.com.

https://www.gpfans.c...rdo-baku-crash/

 

Too fast to make the corner (but you keep that out of course), and by that "at fault", but read it as you want.

[gowebber]

Too fast to make the corner (but you keep that out of course), and by that "at fault", but read it as you want.

.

Too fast is a matter of debate. Nooone really knows for certain if he would have made it or not. However given how many times he has made late corners like that you could almost put the odds in Dan's favour.

Save the salt for Helmut he's the one that put it back out in the public again.

Edited by gowebber, 22 January 2019 - 07:33.

[Stephane]

Well, if Ric was too fast to make the corner, it means Max was way too fast also.

[A3]

Well, if Ric was too fast to make the corner, it means Max was way too fast also.

Not really, as Max was going slower than Dan, otherwise Dan wouldn't have ploughed in the back of Max.

[A3]

.

Too fast is a matter of debate.

Not according to Marko's comment, which is what your topic is about.

Edited by A3, 22 January 2019 - 07:51.

[Dratini]

.

Too fast is a matter of debate. Nooone really knows for certain if he would have made it or not. However given how many times he has made late corners like that you could almost put the odds in Dan's favour.

Save the salt for Helmut he's the one that put it back out in the public again.

Hungary 2017: Max locks up as Bottas drives in front of his front wing, reasoned that Max' downforce was disturbed.
Baku 2018: Dan locks up as Max drives in front of his front wing, reasoned that Dan tried to divebomb.

[gowebber]

Not according to Marko's comment, which is what your topic is about.

I didn't know we were not allowed to debate his comments. Lol

Edited by gowebber, 22 January 2019 - 08:24.

[A3]

I didn't know we were not allowed to debate his comments. Lol

Sure we are, but because you left them out I wasn't sure you had read the article correctly.

lol.

[Maxioos]

I didn't know we were not allowed to debate his comments. Lol

 

That doesn't mean selective quoting and determine different "rightfulness" in different quotes same person in same article. It can be, but it's not the normal way of discussing a article, it's all is questionable or all is in principle read as correct/true.

 

If he's right according you and i think everybody, Max could have avoided the crash, same should count for his other claim Ric. would never had made the corner.

 

Making a pass attempt that would not work makes it a wrong move. That Max could have avoided it doesn't make the failed pass move instantly a good or correct estimated and executed move.

[Requiem84]

‘Toxic’ Marko strikes again.

[Dratini]

If he's right according you and i think everybody, Max could have avoided the crash, same should count for his other claim Ric. would never had made the corner.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but is your argument here that if we accept statement A from one person, then we should also accept statement B, purely on the basis that we accepted the former statement? On face value I don't think there's any reason that a second statement can't be rejected simply because a prior one was accepted, particularly when, in the case of on-track events, they are not necessarily dependent on each other occurring.

What we know of the incident is that could have avoided the incident. I'm not saying that he should have, just that he could have. So we know there that that is a statement from Marko that you could not objectively reject. The second statement on the other hand, the one you're saying we should accept because that which I just mentioned was accepted, is one which relies on fact, unlike the first. That Dan would not have made the corner were it not for the incident is one that requires facts, and realistically we will never know if he could have or otherwise.

[Ivanhoe]

Max could and should have avoided it, regardless whether Ricciardo would have made the corner or not. His defensive move was over the limit. All IMO of course.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 22 January 2019 - 09:12.

[Requiem84]

That Dan would not have made the corner were it not for the incident is one that requires facts, and realistically we will never know if he could have or otherwise.

We, as fans, will never know. But RB, in posession of all the telemtry relating to this moment surely can know whether he would have made that corner or not.

[Maustinsj]

Don’t forget, Max NEVER makes a mistake.

Or so I’ve been led to believe around these parts...

[A3]

Don’t forget, Max NEVER makes a mistake.

Or so I’ve been led to believe around these parts...

Oh how I hate these kind of posts. Try reading.

[Requiem84]

Don’t forget, Max NEVER makes a mistake.

Or so I’ve been led to believe around these parts...

The law of Godwin dictates the following:

As an on-line discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

In a similar vein, when a topic reaches more than 5 posts, the probability of a unrelated sarcastic post about Verstappen approaches 1.

Well done for making the stereotype come true :-).

[ANF]

Seems to me the translation is just a bit poor.

From German: https://de.motorspor...rklich/4326002/

[Reddington]

Don’t forget, Max NEVER makes a mistake.

Or so I’ve been led to believe around these parts...

Apparently that works both ways!

I still think that both guys had their share of responsibility in that crash. That said, I do think Max was on the very limit all race long and therefore had most responsibility in having triggered Dan into a “I’ll show you”-move, to which he was entitled.
How that race evolved, I think the chances of them crashing were higher than them making the finish line. Both our guys didn’t want to give an inch that day. Both wanted to stamp their authority.

What are the odds of what year the Baku crash will not be mentioned again. 2026?

“Ooooh, Marko said something about it. Let’s rehash it all again for the 84th time!”

Edited by Reddington, 22 January 2019 - 10:05.

[Requiem84]

The entire originial German text:

 

 

Doch die entscheidenden Szenen spielten sich laut Red Bulls Motorsportkonsulenten Helmut Marko schon in den Runden vor dem Crash ab. "Das war schon an und über der Grenze", stellt der Österreicher gegenüber 'Motorsport.com' klar.

Zunächst habe Verstappen Ricciardo in einer Linkskurve "zu weit hinausgedrängt", meint Marko. "Das war überflüssig." Dann standen die Boxenstopps an. Ricciardo hatte Verstappen nach einem harten Kampf in der 35. Runde überholt, also blieb ihm das Vorrecht, als erster hereinzukommen.

Verstappen habe aber über Funk argumentiert, dass er einen früheren Stopp benötige. "Verstappen sagte uns, seine Reifen seien hinüber", bestätigt Marko. Als dann aber dennoch Ricciardo in der 37. Runde hereingeholt wurde und Verstappen den Befehl bekam, eine Runde später auf Ultrasoft-Gummis zu wechseln, drehte der Verfolger plötzlich auf.

Hatte Verstappen doch keine Reifenprobleme?

"Die Rundenzeit ist da gerade um eine halbe bis dreiviertel Sekunde gefallen", erklärt Marko. "Kaum kriegt Verstappen das Signal, er soll reinkommen, fährt er beide Sektoren grün! Mit Reifen, die vorher laut seiner Aussage am Ende waren. Dadurch geriet schon ins Wanken, was wir vorher ausgerechnet hatten, nämlich dass die beiden Autos nach dem Boxenstopp etwas getrennt sein würden."

Doch die Rechnung der Red-Bull-Strategen wurde noch weiter infrage gestellt. "Verstappens Out-Lap war unglaublich gut", offenbart der Red-Bull-Motorsportkonsulent. "Das Gegenteil bei Ricciardo. Irgendein Fahrzeug war vor ihm, als er reinkam. Dadurch hat er noch einmal eineinhalb Sekunden verloren. Laut Papierform hätten sie vier Sekunden auseinanderliegen sollen. Aber stattdessen lagen sie eng beisammen."

 

Aber nicht nur das: Entgegen der Prognose hatte plötzlich wieder der bereits überholte Verstappen im Red-Bull-Duell um Platz vier die Nase vorne. "Dann ging auch noch von einem Renningenieur eine nicht so gute Message an Ricciardo hinaus", weiß Marko. "So hat sich das aufgebauscht." Kein Wunder, dass Ricciardo mit der Wut im Bauch fuhr und die alte Hackordnung um jeden Preis wiederherstellen wollte.

Marko: Verstappen hätte Crash vermeiden können

Nach nur zwei Runden kam es bei Start-Ziel zum Crash. Ricciardo saugte sich mit DRS-Hilfe an den links fahrenden Teamkollegen an, wollte dann rechts antäuschen und links vorbeigehen. Verstappen fuhr zunächst leicht nach rechts, machte dann aber links die Tür zu, als er Ricciardos Plan erkannte, wodurch es krachte.

Das wäre aber laut Marko gar nicht notwendig gewesen: "Verstappen hätte den Unfall vermeiden können, denn Ricciardo war um Häuser zu schnell. Der wäre nie und nimmer um die Kurve gekommen. Er hätte die Auslaufzone genutzt. Max hätte auf die Seite fahren müssen. Aber in der Situation gab es den Eklat."

Am Ende nahmen aber beide Red-Bull-Piloten die Schuld am Zwischenfall auf sich und einigten sich auf einen ausgeglichenen Anteil. Zudem entschuldigten sie sich bei der kompletten Mannschaft für das Malheur. "Deswegen trauern wir Ricciardo wirklich nach: So hart sie auf der Strecke waren, so positiv waren sie abseits der Strecke im Umgang miteinander. Aber auch in der Auto-Entwicklung", spricht Marko dem zu Renault gewechselten Australier nachträglich ein Kompliment für seine Reife in Krisensituationen aus.

[Risil]

I bet Marko gave Max an earful about this, in private, at the time. It speaks to the greatest weakness of Verstappen's driving, that he's a poor decision maker when there's a faster driver behind trying to overtake. To some observers this may come across as pleasing machismo but you can bet his smarter competitors are thinking of ways to take advantage of it, and that Red Bull are privately tearing their hair out about it.

[Requiem84]

I bet Marko gave Max an earful about this, in private, at the time. It speaks to the greatest weakness of Verstappen's driving, that he's a poor decision maker when there's a faster driver behind trying to overtake. To some observers this may come across as pleasing machismo but you can bet his smarter competitors are thinking of ways to take advantage of this, and that Red Bull are privately tearing their hair out about it.

 

Often times there is too much ego with him.

 

I recently read an interview in a paper Dutch F1 magazine. When asked the question what the best feeling was in an F1 weekend, Verstappen responded 'beating your team mate in qualifying'. Ego.

 

Same with being overtaken. He seems to experience any overtake on himself as some sort of public humiliation. No matter whether he is fighting for P15 or P2. That is the dumbest part imo. As a driver you become much more effective when you know when and how to pick you battles.

[A3]

Same with being overtaken. He seems to experience any overtake on himself as some sort of public humiliation. No matter whether he is fighting for P15 or P2. That is the dumbest part imo. As a driver you become much more effective when you know when and how to pick you battles.

Yup, agreed.

[Reddington]

Often times there is too much ego with him.

 

I recently read an interview in a paper Dutch F1 magazine. When asked the question what the best feeling was in an F1 weekend, Verstappen responded 'beating your team mate in qualifying'. Ego.

 

Same with being overtaken. He seems to experience any overtake on himself as some sort of public humiliation. No matter whether he is fighting for P15 or P2. That is the dumbest part imo. As a driver you become much more effective when you know when and how to pick you battles.

 

Yes, agreed. As much I am a fan of his driving, that trait of him drives me crazy. If he can shake that, he would be a more all round ace, but I doubt he ever will shake it. It seems to be a Verstappen trait that they are born with. Jos's anger also always rubbed me the wrong way.

[Dratini]

Often times there is too much ego with him.

 

I recently read an interview in a paper Dutch F1 magazine. When asked the question what the best feeling was in an F1 weekend, Verstappen responded 'beating your team mate in qualifying'. Ego.

 

Same with being overtaken. He seems to experience any overtake on himself as some sort of public humiliation. No matter whether he is fighting for P15 or P2. That is the dumbest part imo. As a driver you become much more effective when you know when and how to pick you battles.

In some ways, the potential for RBR' first year with Honda to be unproductive could be the best thing for Max. If this is a consistent personality trait then a season within which he is frequently subject to the kind of on-track events that bring out this trait may be the best means by which to overcome his own ego. If I were a max fan and I had to choose between him having a long season in a dud car, and him messing up a championship battle over his ego, well.. I know which one I'd pick.

[Requiem84]

My expectation is that this character trait will never change. His other qualities are so strong that he'll never have enough outside pressure to change himself.

 

Nevertheless, these kind of 'flaws' make him and F1 more interesting in any case for us viewers, even when it is to the detriment as a fan.

 

Imagine 2018 without Baku... what would we still be talking about?!

[as65p]

Making a pass attempt that would not work makes it a wrong move.

 

Problem, as always, nobody knows, or will ever know.

 

I bet if you showed 10 of Rics passes to random people, stopping video mid-pass, there would be many declarations of "that will not work". Yet often enough it did.

[Heyli]

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but is your argument here that if we accept statement A from one person, then we should also accept statement B, purely on the basis that we accepted the former statement? On face value I don't think there's any reason that a second statement can't be rejected simply because a prior one was accepted, particularly when, in the case of on-track events, they are not necessarily dependent on each other occurring.

What we know of the incident is that could have avoided the incident. I'm not saying that he should have, just that he could have. So we know there that that is a statement from Marko that you could not objectively reject. The second statement on the other hand, the one you're saying we should accept because that which I just mentioned was accepted, is one which relies on fact, unlike the first. That Dan would not have made the corner were it not for the incident is one that requires facts, and realistically we will never know if he could have or otherwise.

 

Marko said: Max should have avoided Ricciardo, BECAUSE Ricciardo was going too fast anyway.

 

If you then argue: See, Marko said Max should have avoided Ricciardo, BUT Ricciardo wasn´t going too fast, then obviously the whole argument from Marko becomes void...

 

Still think it´s Max´ fault, so I hope this is my last comment in this topic! Will probably be closed soon anyway ;). 

[SenorSjon]

Yes, agreed. As much I am a fan of his driving, that trait of him drives me crazy. If he can shake that, he would be a more all round ace, but I doubt he ever will shake it. It seems to be a Verstappen trait that they are born with. Jos's anger also always rubbed me the wrong way.

 

The same trait brought him more victories and podiums than one crash in Baku and penalties in Monza and Suzuka.

[Reddington]

The same trait brought him more victories and podiums than one crash in Baku and penalties in Monza and Suzuka.

 

I am not going to debate that. I am not likely to sway from my opinion in this case. I am a fan of both Jos and Max, but I will never like mentioned traits. I don't necessarily agree with your statement either. Someone like Lewis is showing that you can do pretty well without those and be even more effective.

 

Anyway, we can't pick and choose and that makes it fun. A perfect driver would be oh so boring. Love Dan, can't stand his shoey thing. Loved Nige, but him pretending to be Atlas all the time got pretty boring. Liked Damon, but was annoyed by the whole self doubt and father issues that seemed to ooze out of him. Etc etc. Having flaws makes it a lot more fun due to having an unpredictability aspect thrown into the mix, so I can live with it just fine. Others however can't, which is fine by me too.

Edited by Reddington, 22 January 2019 - 15:02.

[Dratini]

The same trait brought him more victories and podiums than one crash in Baku and penalties in Monza and Suzuka.

The irony is that this is just the kind of answer you could expect to hear from Max if he was asked about the aforementioned trait. His style brings about success, but that isn't of course to say that it couldn't use some work. For now his ego has only needed to contend with his teammate and cars that were faster than his, while not fighting for a championship. I imagine such an ego could turn out to be a little more tender when in the heat of a battle for his first world championship. Maybe we'll get to see this year. 

[Stephane]

Not really, as Max was going slower than Dan, otherwise Dan wouldn't have ploughed in the back of Max.

 

That's my problem with Baku, i can't recall correctly what happens there. 

 

Still mystified by the Toyota slowing down on the Mulsanne straight

[Atreiu]

Hopefully one day Vettel and Max will be paired at Red Bull and both will be equally competitive. Then we'll get to see them clash and Marko's head explode trying to decide whom to blame.

[pdac]

"Verstappen could have avoided the accident"

 

But he didn't.

 

Marko could have told us something interesting.

 

But he didn't.

[A3]

Marko could have told us something interesting.
 
But he didn't.

He did actually. He says there was no way in hell Ricciardo was going to make that corner.

[ANF]

He's wrong about that though, isn't he? Ricciardo locked up because Verstappen moved back to the left.

[Reddington]

He's wrong about that though, isn't he? Ricciardo locked up because Verstappen moved back to the left.

 

Who mentioned locking up? RBR might have known by looking at the data that the point where Dan started braking and the speed he was traveling at was too late or too fast to make the corner, regardless of him locking up because he was still in Max's wake. Not saying that is the case, it's just what Marko is implying. Which is a separate debate than discussing who is to blame. But it doesn't mean Marko is wrong about it. And no way for us to actually know. We just have opinions, not facts.

Edited by Reddington, 22 January 2019 - 16:07.

[Brackets]

This is the actual bombshell from that interview:

Zunächst habe Verstappen Ricciardo in einer Linkskurve "zu weit hinausgedrängt", meint Marko. "Das war überflüssig." 

At the time I couldn't believe they let him get away with that one (or rather it just confirmed my suspicions about who the team was all about).

[ANF]

Who mentioned locking up? RBR might have known by looking at the data that the point where Dan started braking and the speed he was traveling at was too late or too fast to make the corner, regardless of him locking up because he was still in Max's wake. Not saying that is the case, it's just what Marko is implying. Which is a separate debate than discussing who is to blame. But it doesn't mean Marko is wrong about it. And no way for us to actually know. We just have opinions, not facts.

Sure. Perhaps the data suggests that Ricciardo braked way, way, way too late for him to make the corner. But it sure didn't look like that to me at the time.

[Brackets]

Sure. Perhaps the data suggests that Ricciardo braked way, way, way too late for him to make the corner. But it sure didn't look like that to me at the time.

Nor to Max, judging by his actions.

[TomNokoe]

Who cares

[Heyli]

Nor to Max, judging by his actions.

Perhaps he was just being kind, trying to help Ricciardo to slow him down for the corner? 

[FLB]

I bet Marko gave Max an earful about this, in private, at the time. It speaks to the greatest weakness of Verstappen's driving, that he's a poor decision maker when there's a faster driver behind trying to overtake. To some observers this may come across as pleasing machismo but you can bet his smarter competitors are thinking of ways to take advantage of it, and that Red Bull are privately tearing their hair out about it.

Verstappen is on the record recently saying Marko was right to have been harsh with him:

 

https://racer.com/20...018-verstappen/

[pdac]

He did actually. He says there was no way in hell Ricciardo was going to make that corner.

 

That's interesting? The unsubstantiated opinion of someone who speaks just to gain column inches in the press?

[A3]

He's wrong about that though, isn't he? Ricciardo locked up because Verstappen moved back to the left.

We don't know. We don't know how fast RIC was going when Max moved back over. Marko says Dan was going too fast to get the car slowed down enough to make the corner had Max not cut in front of him.

[Dratini]

Who mentioned locking up? RBR might have known by looking at the data that the point where Dan started braking and the speed he was traveling at was too late or too fast to make the corner, regardless of him locking up because he was still in Max's wake. Not saying that is the case, it's just what Marko is implying. Which is a separate debate than discussing who is to blame. But it doesn't mean Marko is wrong about it. And no way for us to actually know. We just have opinions, not facts.

So often we've seen Dan surprising us by braking later than anyone else while maintaining control of the car, that I wonder if their data takes that proficiency into account. If you look at Dan's braking point in his crash with with Max and his braking point the year prior when he overtook three cars into turn one you'll see that they are very similar.

[baddog]

Marko says a lot of things.

[Reddington]

So often we've seen Dan surprising us by braking later than anyone else while maintaining control of the car, that I wonder if their data takes that proficiency into account. If you look at Dan's braking point in his crash with with Max and his braking point the year prior when he overtook three cars into turn one you'll see that they are very similar.

I’ve got no bone in this fight, to me it didn’t look he was braking massively late. I don’t have a clue how fast he was going though. DRS and a tow on a long straight would make him fast.

But as I said before, I’ll always remain of the opinion that they were both wrong, where I put a bit more blame on Max.

Yet again though, it doesn’t mean Marko is wrong or lying. He has no reason to in this case. He says Max made a mistake twice and Dan once. What motive would he have to make it up? He is known to stir things up, but in this case that would serve no purpose whatsoever.

Edited by Reddington, 23 January 2019 - 00:18.

[Reinmuster]

I think Ric would made it into the corner if someone other than Max are in front of him.

 

Ric is one of the cleanest overtaker in F1 today.

Edited by Reinmuster, 23 January 2019 - 01:21.