604 replies to this topic

[Eff One 2002]

What's happening on that front? Anyone who you think is likely to take the plunge, or are we stuck with an anorexic grid of 20 for the forseeable future? Personally, I'd love to see a full grid of 26 cars/13 teams return.

Edited by Eff One 2002, 22 January 2019 - 20:53.

[TheGoldenStoffel]

I think we'll see new teams entering as soon as the pub closes.

[Clatter]

I'd love to see a full grid, but can't see what the incentive is for anyone to join currently. Maybe if the cost cap comes in and they make the money distribution fairer.

[Maxioos]

Hard to say, Haas came kind of out of nowhere, some most investigate that route possibility I suspect. But I doubt outsiders will join soon.

But, I do see a possibility that if a budget cap does come in place (I personally doubt), I could see Mercedes and Ferrari separate their over budget personal and resources in a separate b team under different brand like RBR/STR. And that's mostly because career managers don't want to lose part of the (responsibility) budget they can place on their CV. And will do everything to keep their budget, if in different project is needed for that, they will lobby for it. And imo, budget isn't a problem for the boards and by that they don't instantly will feel the need to limit it until the amount of the budget cap. They have already calculated and booked the full costs for the next 5 years or so.

That's my first hope for more cars, because that would be better for sure.

[FordFiesta]

What's happening on that front? Anyone who you think is likely to take the plunge, or are we stuck with an anorexic grid of 20 for the forseeable future? Personally, I'd love to see a full grid of 26 cars/13 teams return.

But not Caterham, Marussia, (I forgot the name of the third team already) .

[pdac]

Stupid question!

 

Of course no one is going to enter F1 (unless and until conditions radically change - meaning everything is reset and those teams that enjoy big advantaged are pushed out). I bet, secretly, Haas are probably wondering why they came in when they did.

[Eff One 2002]

But not Caterham, Marussia, (I forgot the name of the third team already) .

HRT (Hispanic Racing Team). They weren't great, but at least Caterham and Marussia showed some promise towards the end, getting a lot closer to, and at times outqualifying drivers in the more established teams. (It was a rarity, but it happened) It's a shame they couldn't continue and improve further.

Edited by Eff One 2002, 22 January 2019 - 21:14.

[danmills]

B teams are the only viable way with how things currently are. Even that is a thin prospect.

[Eff One 2002]

Stupid question!

 

 

Constructive contribution, there.

[Clatter]

B teams are the only viable way with how things currently are. Even that is a thin prospect.

 

Can't iamgine a B team being started from scratch. It would just be a takeover of an existing team, which might help maintain the current numbers, but not increase the grid.

[maximilian]

I get the feeling that some sort of "3rd car" arrangement is more likely to boost the grid (if ever) than an actual new from-scratch team entering.

[Fastcake]

We need a more equitable financial settlement first. Prize money will need to be shared amongst all entrants, and from their first year, and some form of budget cap needs to be in place. Some form of movement on this should happen as the existing commercial agreements expire, but there's nothing to show for it as yet.

 

The next technical rule package also needs to be decided, as it doesn't make much sense to enter a car for one year then significantly redesign it the next. That's also presuming we get some major changes, instead of minor tweaks, as we also aren't hearing much about new rules. And the uncertainty over the year any changes will be introduced makes it more difficult for any team to commit.

 

If Formula One does become financially sustainable I imagine we'll see another rush of potential entrants, like we did for the aborted 2010 budget cap.

[pdac]

Constructive contribution, there.

 

It's not the only statement I contributed.

[jee]

I would like if the car regulations "formula 1" would not be limited to the world championship, so we can potentially have other regional series where teams can try to qualify for world championship events as they like.

[pdac]

In many ways it would be much better if there were just 4 teams - Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda - running 6 cars each. At least then we'd have 6 drivers running the best PU/chassis combination and having a chance to battle with each other.

[pdac]

I would like if the car regulations "formula 1" would not be limited to the world championship, so we can potentially have other regional series where teams can try to qualify for world championship events as they like.

 

Costs would have to be greatly reduced.

[Eff One 2002]

It's not the only statement I contributed.

Well, aren't you just a bucket of laughs?

[Anderis]

At least then we'd have 6 drivers running the best PU/chassis combination and having a chance to battle with each other.

Nah, we would most likely see tons of TO to ensure the championship win is secured. Happened a lot of times in series where top teams/manufacturers run more than 2-3 cars. Team principals don't think "hey, we have the best car, so let our drivers fight between each other for the sake of the show". They think "what can we do to increase the probability of us winning/decreasing the probability of us losing the championship? The advantage we have right now might be temporary". And the way to achieve what they want is often TO.

Even when Mercedes had huge advantage in 2014-2016, Rosberg and Hamilton weren't exactly free to do what they want. There were some strict rules like the driver ahead had the strategy preference (which made many of the races more boring that they could have been) and there were some TO like Monaco 2016. I seem to recall that some late season WTCC races several years ago were quite farcical because there were like 4 manufacturers in the whole series and half of the grid was going out of the way for one driver or another to facilitate the title fight for the leading driver. Not only were these drivers allowing to overtake themselves without any fight but they would often just slow down and lose dozens of seconds purposedly to ensure they were overtaken before the end of the race.

Edited by Anderis, 22 January 2019 - 22:46.

[Clatter]

In many ways it would be much better if there were just 4 teams - Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda - running 6 cars each. At least then we'd have 6 drivers running the best PU/chassis combination and having a chance to battle with each other.

Or just one driver from each team allowed to win, unless they break down.

[JHSingo]

Why would you, in the current climate? You've not got a hope of even sniffing a podium, even if you do a good job - as Haas are starting to realise.

 

It's going to take major changes to the way the sport is run to entice anyone new, in my opinion. Right now Liberty just needs to consolidate the teams that it does have, because 20 cars is right on the verge of having a championship that is in trouble. Any less than 20 and you're definitely in trouble.

 

It's been obvious for some time that the grid isn't big enough, what with lack of opportunity for young drivers and the ease in which top cars have been able to finish on the podium, even after being at the back. But I can't see any big changes coming.

Edited by JHSingo, 22 January 2019 - 23:19.

[P123]

There is no longer the sponsors- look at McLaren scratching around, or Williams. F1 was once the sole annual global sporting event. But now the EPL and Spanish football leagues are broadcast worldwide, with more events (matches), more TV, more exposure. There is a lot more competition out there for attention and money. On the one hand F1 has woken up to the online world, but then Bernie has flogged traditional TV coverage behind a pay wall. A team needs a rich benefactor- like Mateschitz, Stroll or Haas, or to be backed by a manufacturer.

[Anja]

In many ways it would be much better if there were just 4 teams - Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda - running 6 cars each. At least then we'd have 6 drivers running the best PU/chassis combination and having a chance to battle with each other.

 

And if one decides to leave you lose 1/4 of the grid just like that... 

[pdac]

Well, aren't you just a bucket of laughs?

 

Still a stupid question.

[pdac]

And if one decides to leave you lose 1/4 of the grid just like that... 

 

Well, that's what F1 has become. Everyone is so scared that someone might leave because they all know that no one is going to join.  Either you get rid of the manufacturers (which equates to getting rid of the money) or else you pander to their desires (which is pretty much what we have now). No corporations with big money to spend are that interested in what F1 has to offer them. Few independents have the resources to go F1 racing (and if they do, again, F1 does not have that much to offer them).

[Eff One 2002]

Still a stupid question.

In your opinion, and you're still being unnecessarily abrasive. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a new entity with substantial financial backing may decide to enter F1 in the next few years, even though it's unlikely given the current hole F1 has dug itself into in that regard, and the idea of the topic was to see who the members here thought may possibly decide to enter F1 in the near future, even though there may be no concrete plans announced by anyone at this stage in order to provoke discussion, so no, it wasn't a stupid question. 

Edited by Eff One 2002, 23 January 2019 - 03:40.

[Kalmake]

Better to wait for 2021 rules. There have been plans to extend money share to all teams instead of top 10.

[F1 Mike]

Could definitely do with 2 more teams, but I can't see it happening any time soon

[Beri]

When the budget limit is installed and the engine rules are set for another decade, teams can safely join. For now, it is a lot of uncertainty.

[taran]

While I understand the thinking behind the views that any new teams would logically wait until new technical rules are introduced, I disagree.

F1 cars are practically new prototypes every new season with very little carry-over from the previous car. Usually it's only the concept that's carried over. So there is no great investment that is subsequently lost.

And the sooner a new team starts, the sooner it gets the necessary operational experience to perform in the highest level of motorsport.

 

Just look at Haas, they were still making silly mistakes in their third year. Better to get that experience and then be competitive in 2021+.

 

As for new teams, there were several bidders for Force India. From the rejected bids, Andretti and Mazepin might be the most likely entities to start F1 teams IMO.

[owenmahamilton]

Anyone know what happened to the team from Romania that was meant to happen the same year that Haas came in?

[danmills]

No need for budget caps, loopholes will be found to spend big money creatively. Just distribute prize money better so the teams that are creative aren't bottlenecked by a set figure. £20m wont make any different to Mercedes or Ferrari but to Force India and Williams this is a complete game changer.

Allow engine manufacturers to do what they like and cut or increase the max unit limit. This is meant to be the pinnacle. The biggest issue is the current engine lockout. How this works with testing engines I don't know. You almost need extra testing in the season. Instead of dedicating entire weeks, why not open the Monday after race day for extra testing every other event? Teams are already there, logistics is less an issue. They need one truck left behind and a skeleton crew. Engine manufacturers can spend as little or as much as they want / or as teams can afford to. Or set a limit of laps per team / engine proportionately.

We have the halo now. Why not bring back gravel traps. This will also educate drivers to know their limits better and punish them fair and square for overstepping. No arguments, if you're off you are off. Game over. Watch the behaviour change overnight.

Edited by danmills, 24 January 2019 - 22:35.

[absinthedude]

When I look back at the first 15 or so years that I watched F1 (late 70s to early/mid 90s) there was one thing which allowed smaller teams to be viable....the Cosworth DFV and later DFR was available to anyone at a relatively cheap price...and if by 1992 it wasn't going to trouble the podium you could still design a nice package around this well known engine and score points if your drivers and cars were good enough. 

 

Today the engines available are all capable of winning on their day...but none comes anywhere as cheap even in relative terms as a Cosworth DFV/DFR....and the last time Cosworth were involved a few years ago their modern engine wasn't much good. There is no "budget" option, no entry level any more. You can't hire an up and coming designer, a F2 runner up, buy a van load of DFRs and go racing any more.

[huggybear]

F1 isn't worth it to new teams in its current form.

 

Independent teams can't compete, and might (will) go bust trying to spend to be competitive, which makes no sense.

 

Manufacturers will come in and be spending 300-400m a year to be the fourth best team, with no realistic hope to break the top three's dominance because of the way prize money and team's ability to veto rules currently works. Why do that when you can go to Indycar/WEC/Formula E, spend much less and actually win?

 

The only reason for a team to enter F1 at the moment is for the bragging rights to say they are in F1. 

[ensign14]

Anyone know what happened to the team from Romania that was meant to happen the same year that Haas came in?

 

The clue is in the question.
 

[sopa]

Haas entering was really an exceptional case and they are pretty much a B-team of Ferrari.

 

Maybe if Mercedes or Renault decided they want to sell more cars in China, and then decide to support a new team called China GP to get started from scratch and get all the necessary parts from the mother team, then yes, but otherwise...

Edited by sopa, 23 January 2019 - 12:09.

[aportinga]

Frankly unless a new manufacture or 2 come in, I see this going the other way. With no movement forward I see McLaren and Williams moving out - maybe to WEC.

 

Companies/sponsors (IMO) are not spending money like they used to and it does not seem that this will change - ever. In fact most of the corporate world is looking to cut costs and limit spending across the board. 

 

At best we may see some Middle-East $$$ supporting some of the current teams but that won't last forever as it's simply a gesture of vanity.

 

Racing across the board is in a death spiral. IMO it's all about mitigating losses because an increase in veiwership, ticket sales and so on will likely be minimal/rare at best for all series moving forward. NASCAR and F1 have the farthest to fall, ICS has (IMO) already hit rock bottom (2 years ago) so the former two may be wise to keep an eye on what ICS does to move forward. While their model (IRL) under the George family was a case in business disaster, what Mark Miles has done recently has brought new life into that old gal and seemingly looks set to move forward - albeit at a slow pace but in this business I would argue that slow may equate to a more sound structure to build from.

Edited by aportinga, 23 January 2019 - 12:53.

[statman]

double topic:

 

https://forums.autos...o-we-need-them/

[Ellios]

Rich Energy F1 Racing Team - Has a ring to it, don't you think ?!

[BalanceUT]

Rich Energy F1 Racing Team - Has a ring to it, don't you think ?!

Sounds like the sad trombone to me. 

[ernestomodena]

The investment now is to big ti get somewhere. However if youre betting the budgetcap is comming you would to get in now. Because if it's a real rule just like in 2010 al lot of gold seekers are wanting to get in. Why? Because you could have massive exposure. Ask yourself why is Red bull still around with 2 teams. Because the money they put in there they get it back by selling cans.If you have a luxery product why not spend money on it. Who knows maybe we will see a disney or apple F1 team with the budget cap.

[HistoryFan]

forget it. As long as the costs are that big, never ever.

[Sterzo]

As others have said, finance is the obstacle.  Liberty have recognised the problem and change is in the offing.  Paradoxically, that makes new entrants even less likely, because they have no idea what the outcome of that change will be. Cost cap? Major redistribution of funds? A token transfer of pocket money to the lesser teams? Nobody knows.

[PayasYouRace]

double topic:

https://forums.autos...o-we-need-them/

Given the false premise of that thread it’s fair to say a new one is no problem here.

[pdac]

In your opinion, and you're still being unnecessarily abrasive. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a new entity with substantial financial backing may decide to enter F1 in the next few years, even though it's unlikely given the current hole F1 has dug itself into in that regard, and the idea of the topic was to see who the members here thought may possibly decide to enter F1 in the near future, even though there may be no concrete plans announced by anyone at this stage in order to provoke discussion, so no, it wasn't a stupid question. 

 

Alright, let's start again ...

 

Q. "So are any new teams planning to enter F1 in the next few years?"

A. Not to my knowledge - and why would anyone want to?

[PayasYouRace]

That’s the crux of the matter too. At the moment F1 is effectively a closed shop right now. Yes, there are open spots on the grid but the financial barriers to entry are too great for most racing teams or manufacturers to make the step up.

[absinthedude]

If McLaren leave F1 I'd certainly see them going to Indycar or WEC....Williams would simply close the shop doors. 

 

But it's not impossible we might lose them. And who would replace them? To me, the alarm bells rang back in 2001 when Prost went bust and nobody bought the team as a going concern...then a year later the same with Arrows....two teams with good facilities, staff and long histories in F1.....somewhat like Force India being taken over by Racing Point. Nobody bit. Just a few years earlier there would have been a multitude of serious contenders.

 

Force India survived as Racing Point....but really were any of the other "buyers" actually able to run an F1 team? 

[Tsarwash]

How much did Red Bull spend to get to the position of winning races ? In the first four years, they achieved three podiums, and from what I remember, they were all fairly lucky ones. Even after poaching the best car designer, possibly in F1's history it still took three years and a dramatic rule change before they were regularly making headlines by getting poles or wins. Who has the money to do this, these days ? 

 

I cannot see it happening at the moment, unless there is a big change in the direction of the sport. Last year and the year before 98.4% of the podiums went to the same three teams. In the last five years, out of a total of 297 races the amount of podiums not taken by these three teams is just 23. Why would a new team be tempted by this ?

[Eff One 2002]

That’s the crux of the matter too. At the moment F1 is effectively a closed shop right now. Yes, there are open spots on the grid but the financial barriers to entry are too great for most racing teams or manufacturers to make the step up.

True, and it really needs to be addressed.

[RacingGreen]

That’s the crux of the matter too. At the moment F1 is effectively a closed shop right now. Yes, there are open spots on the grid but the financial barriers to entry are too great for most racing teams or manufacturers to make the step up.

 

It's not just F1 that is a closed shop, F2 / F3 / Indycar etc. are all spec series. You can't slowly build a team and the infra structure you need and when you are doing well in the lower formula (apologies to Indycar) progress to F1. One of the best things the FIA could do is to open up junior categories so there are 2 or 3 chassis makers in each and 2 or 3 engine makers as well. 

[Paco]

NOPE.   Impossible for anyone to compete.  Until F1 address "conservative, conservation" racing due to LONG LIFE ENGINES and CRAZY TIREWEAR characterisitcs and drivers can push for more then 3% or 5-10% of a race.. that number needs to get back to 50-75% of a race again.. 

 

So we need engines that everyone can win with again not just the manufacturer team (remember yeah yeah RB Renault but even Renault was clear they didnt' want that in the future if they got competive team to be upfront).

 

So we need tire construction that doesnt limit racing.

 

So we need rules that do not penalize drivers with GRID Penalties for car breakdowns.   ONLY grid penalties for FAULTS of their OWN DOING.

 

Until all of those, not just 1 but all three need to be FIXED before any new teams come on board and needs to be fixed FAST or else we will lose Williams and potentially others as well like HAAS (as they wont accept being an also ran for long) and Racing Point and even Toro Rosso.