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Red Bull Racing Technical Thread (RB15)


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Poll: Will the VTEC kick in? (406 member(s) have cast votes)

Can they fight for the championship?

  1. Yes (111 votes [27.34%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 27.34%

  2. No (222 votes [54.68%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 54.68%

  3. Don’t Know (73 votes [17.98%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.98%

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#4351 Reddington

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 00:50

Merc and Red Bull engineers have indicated the Merc race pace advantage was around 0.15 a lap.


Source?

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#4352 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 07:03

Gap divided by laps? They probably extrapolated the time without a 2nd stop and Max should have been some 10s behind in the end.



#4353 Reddington

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:24

Gap divided by laps? They probably extrapolated the time without a 2nd stop and Max should have been some 10s behind in the end.


You can’t do that with drivers running completely different strategies.

#4354 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:31

DAZN F1 interviewed Yamamoto before Silverstone - https://m.youtube.co...h?v=wLuewJWnaNY

YouTube subs are useless, would love to know what's said about 'size zero' when they laugh at it 😆

#4355 Marklar

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:31

Only point where you can really compare it is the first stint, and since Hamilton kept up despite dirty air but couldnt go faster once Max pitted those 0.15 s seems to be about right.

#4356 Reddington

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:43

Only point where you can really compare it is the first stint, and since Hamilton kept up despite dirty air but couldnt go faster once Max pitted those 0.15 s seems to be about right.

Still seems a wild stab to me. 0.15? Why not 0.3? Or even 0.5? After Max pitted, all comparisons are out the window. Lewis might not have gone faster because he was preserving tyres.
I am fine believing actual data from the teams, but this is just guessing in my opinion.

Edited by Reddington, 14 August 2019 - 09:43.


#4357 Requiem84

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:47

Still seems a wild stab to me. 0.15? Why not 0.3? Or even 0.5? After Max pitted, all comparisons are out the window. Lewis might not have gone faster because he was preserving tyres.
I am fine believing actual data from the teams, but this is just guessing in my opinion.

 

If Hamilton would be 0,5 faster, he'd most 

 

a) pressure Max more instead of staying within 2 second

b) he'd be faster the moment Max pitted, because he was driving 0,5 slower than his car/tires could handle for many laps and should have some extra speed. Instead, when Max pitted, Hamilton's laptimes actually also dropped / stagnated. 



#4358 scheivlak

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 21:47

Just as a side note: https://www.theguard...t-to-record-low



#4359 Danyy

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 07:06

Excited for the new line up and the engine/car upgrades. I still think 5 wins is doable :)

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#4360 Talisman

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 09:41

DAZN F1 interviewed Yamamoto before Silverstone - https://m.youtube.co...h?v=wLuewJWnaNY

YouTube subs are useless, would love to know what's said about 'size zero' when they laugh at it 😆


Nothing really. The interviewer mumbles something about whether going aggressive when they first entered F1 has paid dividends in the long run, to which the reply is ‘(you mean) size zero?’

What is interesting is how much the PUs are a work in progress after they are introduced. They say that Honda were disappointed with the spec they introduced in France where the increased power didn’t seem to manifest itself in improved performance with MV losing out to Leclerc at the start and Gasly to a Renault later. He says they had problems with the heat in France which they set out to address to maintain performance in hot conditions. A few weeks later this paid dividends in Austria.

There is a lot about Austria and what it meant to Honda, also about the podium where Tanabe was presented an award by Berger, the guy who he used to be a race engineer for and is a longstanding friend with.

Also a lot of positive stuff about RBR and what great partners they are.

#4361 Roadhouse

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 10:50

What is interesting is how much the PUs are a work in progress after they are introduced. They say that Honda were disappointed with the spec they introduced in France where the increased power didn’t seem to manifest itself in improved performance with MV losing out to Leclerc at the start and Gasly to a Renault later. He says they had problems with the heat in France which they set out to address to maintain performance in hot conditions. A few weeks later this paid dividends in Austria.

 

I think this is what sets them apart from Renault. Not looking for excuses, but just working your ass off to solve problems.

Renault would've probably blamed RBR for not providing enough cooling.



#4362 Talisman

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 12:44

I think this is what sets them apart from Renault. Not looking for excuses, but just working your ass off to solve problems.

Renault would've probably blamed RBR for not providing enough cooling.

 

I would be extremely surprised if Renault and the rest weren't doing the exact same thing as Honda, evolving the way the engine is used from race to race.



#4363 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 17:51

I think this is what sets them apart from Renault. Not looking for excuses, but just working your ass off to solve problems.

Renault would've probably blamed RBR for not providing enough cooling.

 

Honda and Red Bull are a good match.  :up:

 

 

I would be extremely surprised if Renault and the rest weren't doing the exact same thing as Honda, evolving the way the engine is used from race to race.

 

Of course, but Honda have been refreshingly open (as below), compared to the boring secrecy of Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes.

 

RA617H harvesting and motoring strategies https://imgur.com/a/SanOP

 

RA615H-RA617H https://www.reddit.c...us_1517_from_a/

 

RA618H https://imgv2-1-f.sc.../1564654442?v=1


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 16 August 2019 - 18:00.


#4364 Roadhouse

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 18:50

I would be extremely surprised if Renault and the rest weren't doing the exact same thing as Honda, evolving the way the engine is used from race to race.

 

Of course, but it works differently when you're not a works team and have less shared responsibilities.



#4365 lio007

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 18:52

Honda and Red Bull are a good match. :up:



Of course, but Honda have been refreshingly open (as below), compared to the boring secrecy of Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes.

RA617H harvesting and motoring strategies https://imgur.com/a/SanOP

RA615H-RA617H https://www.reddit.c...us_1517_from_a/

RA618H https://imgv2-1-f.sc.../1564654442?v=1

I also don't get this hide and seek from Merc, Ren, Fer. I think it's quite hard to "steal" some secrets from pictures. I mean it's not like they have to show us piston design, cylinder head,...
But instead they should be proud of their technical masterpieces and show their products to the community.

#4366 beachdrifter

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 21:09

The new Honda engine is expected at the next race? Grid penalties then anything from 5 to end of the grid? 



#4367 beachdrifter

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 21:11

Still seems a wild stab to me. 0.15? Why not 0.3? Or even 0.5? 

 

Lap time comparison suggests 0.3 is the the most realistic (looking at the laps on tyres of similar age, with both needing to push and not too close to one another, delta then disappearing when running too close). 


Edited by beachdrifter, 16 August 2019 - 21:13.


#4368 Wolbo

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 13:00

The new Honda engine is expected at the next race? Grid penalties then anything from 5 to end of the grid? 

 

Probably Monza.

 

But this article suggests there may be another engine update at Sochi to prepare for Suzuka and in that case introducing an update at Monza means it will only do two races. So perhaps for that reason they may decide to go for a Spa update.



#4369 SenorSjon

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 18:33

Probably Monza.

 

But this article suggests there may be another engine update at Sochi to prepare for Suzuka and in that case introducing an update at Monza means it will only do two races. So perhaps for that reason they may decide to go for a Spa update.

 

it is also for pooling engines, they seem to have a Suzuka delight in preparation. Don't be surpised Albon gets a fresh unit to 'test' for Verstappen in Spa and Verstappen gets one in Monza.



#4370 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 19:30

it is also for pooling engines, they seem to have a Suzuka delight in preparation. Don't be surpised Albon gets a fresh unit to 'test' for Verstappen in Spa and Verstappen gets one in Monza.


It’s hard to say. It’s easier to pass in Spa than in Monza, but RBR Honda might be the best package in Spa, so you don’t want to give up on a potential win for a PU change.

#4371 KevD

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 19:43

It’s hard to say. It’s easier to pass in Spa than in Monza, but RBR Honda might be the best package in Spa, so you don’t want to give up on a potential win for a PU change.

 

Depends. If a good result on Suzuka is of vital importance to keep Honda in F1 after 2020, then that should be priority if you ask me.



#4372 A3

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 10:58

Interesting piece on test benches. It has Max hinting at having not enough engines to test when they were a Renault customer. Now with Honda they can test for longer (Honda provide more test engines) and that improves relibility of other parts as well.

https://www.auto-mot...verlaessigkeit/

Used google translate:

Max Verstappen reveals that indirectly the engine partner was also responsible for the damage in the chassis area. "Today we can drive much longer and more intensively on the test bench. This allows us to test all components in continuous load at the limit. "
...
The secret: Honda provides many more engines for test-bench trials, and they can be driven there with more power, ie under realistic conditions. "You also have a lot more test benches. In Japan, there are test facilities for all sorts of components, "reveals team boss Christian Horner.



#4373 Stephane

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 11:02

That is a works team, clearly.



#4374 A3

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 11:06

That is a works team, clearly.


Yeah but they already had the VTT test bench when they were a Renault customer. I guess it must have added to the frustration that they couldn't get enough Renault engines to test what they wanted to test.

#4375 Requiem84

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 12:24

Good points A3. 

 

When you think about it, it's quite remarkable how much more reliable RB has been this year regarding non-PU issues. 

 

Last year there were quite a few gearbox issues if I remember correctly, and also drive shaft issues etc. 



#4376 A3

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 12:32

Yeah it’s amazing. They can just tell whoever is in the sim to extremely attack the kerbs over 10 laps at Spa for instance and they can record those 10 laps and just let the sim repeat it over and over again until parts break.

#4377 SenorSjon

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 14:01

I reckon the only technical DNF from Gasly was when he scraped/hit a wall? He had a driveshaft failure, quite common on street tracks when some tail wiggling can do damage.



#4378 rocque

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 11:04

Interesting piece on test benches. It has Max hinting at having not enough engines to test when they were a Renault customer. Now with Honda they can test for longer (Honda provide more test engines) and that improves relibility of other parts as well.

https://www.auto-mot...verlaessigkeit/
 

I was wondering why their cars are so much reliable this year. They did a brilliant job with Honda. Thanks for the explanation. 


Edited by rocque, 22 August 2019 - 11:04.


#4379 Talisman

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 11:09

I reckon the only technical DNF from Gasly was when he scraped/hit a wall? He had a driveshaft failure, quite common on street tracks when some tail wiggling can do damage.

 

He was aggressively using kerbs in Baku.  Max was warned not to do the same after Gasly retired. 



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#4380 Grundle

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 13:54

Yeah it’s amazing. They can just tell whoever is in the sim to extremely attack the kerbs over 10 laps at Spa for instance and they can record those 10 laps and just let the sim repeat it over and over again until parts break.

Can a simulator really predict when parts will break to an accurate extent? Struggling to believe this, surely it's the other way round, real world data is used to predict the sim

#4381 JeePee

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 14:16

Can a simulator really predict when parts will break to an accurate extent? Struggling to believe this, surely it's the other way round, real world data is used to predict the sim

I think he means the road sim. Not the race-sim. The the sim where the real car is put to real stress/forces.



#4382 A3

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 14:19

Yup. The entire car sits on a test bench and forces are applied to the wheels by motors. The race sim feeds the rig with data.
AErXmQN.png

Edited by A3, 22 August 2019 - 18:03.


#4383 Requiem84

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 14:58

Can a simulator really predict when parts will break to an accurate extent? Struggling to believe this, surely it's the other way round, real world data is used to predict the sim

 

Perhaps helpful to read the article next time :)



#4384 SenorSjon

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 07:29

Can a simulator really predict when parts will break to an accurate extent? Struggling to believe this, surely it's the other way round, real world data is used to predict the sim

 

If you can run it nearly non stop, you can also test when other parts break or fall below spec. So they can decide to have a new suspension every 4 races for example.



#4385 Talisman

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 12:01

I’m a bit sceptical about that. No rig can mimic sustained G forces going through turns, just the impact sustained by hitting kerbs and so on. That might well be enough on its own though to improve reliability substantially though.

#4386 Marklar

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 12:09

Obviously it's not 100 % accurate, but it never is

#4387 Roadhouse

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 13:26

I’m a bit sceptical about that. No rig can mimic sustained G forces going through turns, just the impact sustained by hitting kerbs and so on. That might well be enough on its own though to improve reliability substantially though.

 

Why not? It shouldn't be that hard to mimic g-forces on suspension parts. As for the engine/fluids, I remember seeing a swivel arm for that purpose? Can't find it anymore though.



#4388 Stephane

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 13:52

The hard thing is to simulate sustained forces above 1g. You'd need really big rigs.



#4389 A3

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 13:54

I’m a bit sceptical about that. No rig can mimic sustained G forces going through turns, just the impact sustained by hitting kerbs and so on. That might well be enough on its own though to improve reliability substantially though.

 

 

You don't think it's possible that the entire platform on which the car sits can move? Of course it needs to be big, but I'm sure it can be done.

 

If you can buy this for your home than I'm sure anything is possible.

https://www.youtube....h?v=mrSEhzwGohU


Edited by A3, 23 August 2019 - 13:55.


#4390 Requiem84

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 14:18

You can mimic G-forces for a short amount of time, but how could any rig in the world simulate G-forces for multiple seconds? It would have to keep moving for multiple seconds at a very rapid pace....



#4391 Roadhouse

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 15:03

You can mimic G-forces for a short amount of time, but how could any rig in the world simulate G-forces for multiple seconds? It would have to keep moving for multiple seconds at a very rapid pace....

 

G-force simulator like used for fighter pilots can be used for the engine. As for the suspension, can't you hold the chassis/monocoque in place and apply pressure on the wheels? I don't think g-force matters when there are no fluids/loose parts involved, it's just about the amount of pressure on and between different parts of the car.



#4392 Talisman

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 15:07

If you’re going to mimic sustained G corners you are going to have to subject the car to up to 4-5g laterally for several seconds. Just think what that means.

Flight simulators mimic impacts but not sustained G forces.

#4393 A3

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 15:57

Maybe they rotate the car on it's axis, like a spit roast. :cool:
 
Edit: Am I right or is google translate messing this up?
Or is this just about the connected 360 simulator?

The car stands on a platform that can turn around its own axis. With a crossbar, the vehicle no longer has to be returned to the starting position. It simply re-adjusts the horizon.

https://www.auto-mot...grad-simulator/

Edited by A3, 23 August 2019 - 16:00.


#4394 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 09:43

Spec 4 could launch in Spa, Tanabe flying back to UK this week and will hold talks with Red Bull and Toro Rosso about it https://members.f1-l...t/report/86145/

#4395 Requiem84

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 10:05

Spec 4 could launch in Spa, Tanabe flying back to UK this week and will hold talks with Red Bull and Toro Rosso about it https://members.f1-l...t/report/86145/

 

If they are happy about Spec 4 in terms of performance and reliability, they should (IMO) introduce it in Spa. 

 

Spa actually is a lot easier to overtake than on Monza as the run up to eau rouge gives a massive tow. Contrary to popular belief Monza isn't that easy to overtake. I think RB / Verstappen could easily get a Top 5, and maybe more in Spa with penalties. In Monza they might stuck behind some cars with a super good top speed. 



#4396 Marklar

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 10:50

Though they are probably more likely to win in Spa than in Monza. Then again they would probably still have less of a chance considering that they would have old engines and the others fresh ones. But then Spa is also the closest of a home race for Max...

Wonder if they end up splitting, i.e. New engine for Max in Monza, and for Alex in Spa, or something like that.

#4397 Talisman

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 10:57

It’s worth remembering that Honda tend to run the engine pretty conservatively first time out, it may not offer more power at the beginning compared to spec 3 (which they are clearly comfortable pushing to its limits).

#4398 Requiem84

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 11:11

Though they are probably more likely to win in Spa than in Monza. Then again they would probably still have less of a chance considering that they would have old engines and the others fresh ones. But then Spa is also the closest of a home race for Max...

Wonder if they end up splitting, i.e. New engine for Max in Monza, and for Alex in Spa, or something like that.

 

I don't see how they have a chance in Spa with their old Power Unit. 

 

If they gain the reported 25HP of Spec 4 and would not have grid penalties, they could really fight for the victory imo, but with an older PU in Spa... I think it's unlikely that they can take on Ferrari at pure pace at this track (especially if Ferrari comes with a new power spec itself). 



#4399 f1paul

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 19:29

Any engine news?



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#4400 Heyli

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 20:05

Happy that the summer break is almost over...!

 

Bring on Spa! Hope RB/Max can pick up where they left and that Albon will positively surprise all!