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Red Bull Racing Technical Thread (RB15)


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Poll: Will the VTEC kick in? (400 member(s) have cast votes)

Can they fight for the championship?

  1. Yes (108 votes [27.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 27.00%

  2. No (220 votes [55.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 55.00%

  3. Don’t Know (72 votes [18.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.00%

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#4501 milestone 11

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 08:45

Interesting, where did you read this?


This in Autosport article,

"The resultant rise in engine revs after Verstappen went over a kerb activated a Honda protection mode and an FIA system that Autosport understands relates to how the governing body ensures driver aids are not being used.

Versappen's power cut in no way implies that Red Bull or Honda are employing a traction control-style system, but a protection mode that reduces torque when a driver suffers too much wheelspin would partially replicate the phenomenon.

Honda's system caused the initial loss of power as it cut in to avoid excessive revving damaging the engine, triggering a torque reduction when Verstappen was at full throttle.

After this, the FIA system - which is the same for all teams - filtered the engine back to full power.

Traction control has been banned in F1 since 2008.

F1's technical regulations state that no car may be equipped with a system or device that is capable of preventing the wheels from spinning under power, or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver."

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#4502 A3

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 10:03

Horner and jos Verstappen said this.
I watched Max's onboard too, its ture. He did a 357kph in the race early on, then something happened with his engine, the rpm never exceed 12500 and he never went above 345kph again.


Yeah I posted this in the other thread:

I followed Max's onboard for a while. He had some engine issues where he said that right before braking for turn 1 the engine suddenly had more power. Team said they saw it on the data but had no solution. He also said that a couple of times the engine failed to pick up power after turn 2 and that the MGU was not recharging correctly. I guess Honda still has some work to do with the new spec.

Also, Perez was extremely quick out of the parabolica and on the straight. Even with DRS Max barely gained on him.



#4503 Requiem84

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 10:51

This in Autosport article,

"The resultant rise in engine revs after Verstappen went over a kerb activated a Honda protection mode and an FIA system that Autosport understands relates to how the governing body ensures driver aids are not being used.

Versappen's power cut in no way implies that Red Bull or Honda are employing a traction control-style system, but a protection mode that reduces torque when a driver suffers too much wheelspin would partially replicate the phenomenon.

Honda's system caused the initial loss of power as it cut in to avoid excessive revving damaging the engine, triggering a torque reduction when Verstappen was at full throttle.

After this, the FIA system - which is the same for all teams - filtered the engine back to full power.

Traction control has been banned in F1 since 2008.

F1's technical regulations state that no car may be equipped with a system or device that is capable of preventing the wheels from spinning under power, or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver."


Youre quoting the Qualifying issue which is well known.

My question relates to the rev limit during the race.

#4504 milestone 11

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 11:04

Youre quoting the Qualifying issue which is well known.

My question relates to the rev limit during the race.

Possibly the same issue though. There appears to be some covert system which is trying to replicate traction control whilst remaining within the rules.



#4505 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:21

Possibly the same issue though. There appears to be some covert system which is trying to replicate traction control whilst remaining within the rules.

 

I think it is an engine protection failsave and it activates when the wheel spins freely (when it is lifted up in the air) while under heavy acceleration. 


Edited by SenorSjon, 12 September 2019 - 14:21.


#4506 milestone 11

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:23

I think it is an engine protection failsave and it activates when the wheel spins freely (when it is lifted up in the air) while under heavy acceleration. 

That's so Mandy Rice-Davies.  ;)



#4507 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:31

Who?



#4508 grunf77

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 08:16

Will we see  Suzuka special PU? :smoking:



#4509 Requiem84

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 08:33

Possibly the same issue though. There appears to be some covert system which is trying to replicate traction control whilst remaining within the rules.


In Qualifying the system kicked in after the first chicane and Verstappen lost acceleration. Why would the system kick in after Parabolica? And why would it limit revs at that specific rev number instead of cutting power like in Q?

Does not seem related based on the symptons.

#4510 jacdaniel

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 09:39

The main issue to work on is the starts. I can’t recall a single good start this season, as in gaining a place.

#4511 SenorSjon

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 09:53

At the back the others even had better starts. I still wonder how the McHonda had those blistering starts.



#4512 Requiem84

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 10:54

How are the starts of the TR's?



#4513 Ackhernar

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 06:49

In Qualifying the system kicked in after the first chicane and Verstappen lost acceleration. Why would the system kick in after Parabolica? And why would it limit revs at that specific rev number instead of cutting power like in Q?

Does not seem related based on the symptons.

It is related. The rev limiter was a race issue. Please note the several posts that speak about this and the footage provided clearly showing the imposed limiter and speed restriction. The system kicked in during the race over a kerb and could not be sorted during.



#4514 Requiem84

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 07:34

It is related. The rev limiter was a race issue. Please note the several posts that speak about this and the footage provided clearly showing the imposed limiter and speed restriction. The system kicked in during the race over a kerb and could not be sorted during.


Is this confirmed, or is this your conclusion?

#4515 Pits

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 09:36

So, any updates on the car for this weekend?

The seem to be strong again, hoping for a Pole for Verstappen... :clap:



#4516 Prelude

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 11:09

I was not impressed with their fp3 pace. I hope the car had a lot more fuel than others.


Edited by Prelude, 21 September 2019 - 11:10.


#4517 Pits

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 11:14

I was not impressed with their fp3 pace. I hope the car had a lot more fuel than others.

Me 2, that didn't look good at all.

Still, we know Verstappen can be around 1 sec faster than Albon around this track. So that should put him back in the ballpark at least.

 

Pretty surprised bij the Ferrari pace to be hounest.... :drunk:



#4518 Danyy

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 12:03

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#4519 Danyy

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 12:04

I was not impressed with their fp3 pace. I hope the car had a lot more fuel than others.


Helmut said they went wrong direction in set up and they should be there for qualifying

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#4520 search

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 12:24

Helmut said they went wrong direction in set up and they should be there for qualifying

they have tried something new, yes - the way I understood it, he said that they need to try something new again for Qualifying though, not that they should automatically be up there.

They can't go back to yesterday's setup because it was too hard on the tires. FP3 setup didn't work. So let's see what they come up with...


Edited by search, 21 September 2019 - 12:25.


#4521 Danyy

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 12:34

they have tried something new, yes - the way I understood it, he said that they need to try something new again for Qualifying though, not that they should automatically be up there.
They can't go back to yesterday's setup because it was too hard on the tires. FP3 setup didn't work. So let's see what they come up with...

If they had to choose between today’s or yesterday’s setup I’d choose yesterday’s. Better to be on pole and lead then have slightly better race pace on a track you won’t overtake at.

Edited by Danyy, 21 September 2019 - 12:36.


#4522 Ivanhoe

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 13:15

they have tried something new, yes - the way I understood it, he said that they need to try something new again for Qualifying though, not that they should automatically be up there.
They can't go back to yesterday's setup because it was too hard on the tires. FP3 setup didn't work. So let's see what they come up with...

If they had to try things out, why wait so long with Max in FP3, he only had 20 minutes of track time.

#4523 Reddington

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 03:36

Well that was... disappointing.

#4524 Danyy

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 06:03

Well that was... disappointing.


Ferrari just did the better job. Hope Max and Albon can have a better race.

#4525 Zerobyte

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 06:28

Ferrari just did the better job. Hope Max and Albon can have a better race.

 

Yes Ferrari did a better job, but if you put a new floor under the car and change some setups than it is not ok to wait 25 min to test the car.

Its totally stupid from Red Bull in my humble opinion.



#4526 Danyy

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 06:32

Yes Ferrari did a better job, but if you put a new floor under the car and change some setups than it is not ok to wait 25 min to test the car.
Its totally stupid from Red Bull in my humble opinion.


I think the idea they were thinking listening to what Horner said was in the past the track conditions changed so much going further into the night that flipped the pecking order so they wanted to get the most representative conditions. But I understand your frustration.

#4527 beachdrifter

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 11:36

RB engineers found Ferrari actually has more downforce here than they do. 



#4528 JeePee

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 14:41

Max a normal start, Albon a tad bad. But considering the dirty side, all pretty decent. Hope they fixed it.


Edited by JeePee, 22 September 2019 - 17:55.


#4529 PedroDiCasttro

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 14:41

Should Honda fold next year, which engine would Red Bull get for 2021? Will they have to go back to Renault, despite what happened between them recently?



#4530 Danyy

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 14:43

All in all the best result Red Bull could have hoped for. Also Albon has already proved he’s a better racer than Gasly, he kept up with the leaders all race.

#4531 Tiakumosan

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 14:47

One of TR/RB would go to Renault. The other one .... I don't know.

They couldn't both go to Ferrari/Mercedes because we would get suppliers with 5-3-2 teams.

So 1 goes to Renault and the other one goes to Ferrari/Mercedes/Renault so we get a 4-3-3 distribution.

#4532 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 14:52

Should Honda fold next year, which engine would Red Bull get for 2021? Will they have to go back to Renault, despite what happened between them recently?


Why would Honda fold? They are having their most successful season since the early 90s.

#4533 Ivanhoe

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 14:53

All in all the best result Red Bull could have hoped for. Also Albon has already proved he’s a better racer than Gasly, he kept up with the leaders all race.


That wasn’t that difficult with Leclerc driving to a delta, Max said he drove so slow he had to pit because his rear tyres got to cold. Albon lost a lot more time in the 2nd stint, despite 3 safety cars.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 22 September 2019 - 14:55.


#4534 Kao18

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 14:54

All in all the best result Red Bull could have hoped for. Also Albon has already proved he’s a better racer than Gasly, he kept up with the leaders all race.


I feel that also had to do with Leclercs pace in the first stint. In the end he lost quite some time compared to Max despite all the safetycars. I am not completely convinced yet but lets see.

#4535 PedroDiCasttro

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 14:56

Why would Honda fold? They are having their most successful season since the early 90s.

I think they stated that they're still not committed to F1 past 2020, and would need to convince the board of directors, which means a victory at Suzuka could be decisive.



#4536 Danyy

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 14:57

That wasn’t that difficult with Leclerc driving to a delta, Max said he drove so slow he had to pit because his rear tyres got to cold. Albon lost a lot more time in the 2nd stint, despite 3 safety cars.


True but when he came out behind traffic he dealt with it quickly, something Gasly never did, Gasly actually ended up getting overtaken after a pit stop and then never getting the place back.

Edited by Danyy, 22 September 2019 - 14:58.


#4537 Reddington

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 14:59

Good result. I enjoyed that. The Ferrari's were just better, fair and square, so beating the Merc's is pretty sweet in that regard. Still a bit of work to do Adrian!



#4538 Jbleroi

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 15:02

I think they stated that they're still not committed to F1 past 2020, and would need to convince the board of directors, which means a victory at Suzuka could be decisive.


They wont let it depend on 1 race... no way... maybe that is a better movie script but nah i dont think so.. of course it is welcome.. but with rb they have a good partner and with max a good driver.. so more is possible.

#4539 ARTGP

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 15:04

They wont let it depend on 1 race... no way... maybe that is a better movie script but nah i dont think so.. of course it is welcome.. but with rb they have a good partner and with max a good driver.. so more is possible.

 

I think Honda commitment for 2021 is dependent on Max's commitment for 2021. Honda is not gonna do this on the backs of Gasly, Kvyat, and Albon....sorry to say it.



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#4540 Danyy

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 17:51

So Mobil fuel upgrade to bring the new engine even further in Sochi. Looking forward to see how Red Bull and Max bounce back. It was a good damage limitation, even saw a video of Red Bull mechanics and Max celebrating on their Twitter.

Edited by Danyy, 22 September 2019 - 17:51.


#4541 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 19:34

But it's sounding like more grid penalties coming in Russia for all four Red Bull cars. On F1 technical some days ago somebody posted a story from Japan which had Honda's Yamamoto saying a final upgrade would be coming, echoing what Jos Verstappen said on some dutch TV show after Monza.

Looking back, that schummie on the Verstappen forum looks to have genuine inside info, in July he said the spec 4 upgrade would come in two parts, bringing a potential 40kw (50bhp) overall, the first part in Spa bringing 25 bhp, this figure was said to be accurate by the Japanese sites, and now part 2 in Russia seems to be new turbo, plenum and fuel/lubes to prepare for a good showing in Suzuka.

#4542 Talisman

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 19:47

I think Honda commitment for 2021 is dependent on Max's commitment for 2021. Honda is not gonna do this on the backs of Gasly, Kvyat, and Albon....sorry to say it.

 

Having Max around will be helpful to get Honda to commit but the reality is its likely to be non-F1 factors that will decide things for them just as it was the last three times Honda pulled out.  However I suspect they will stay in as I don't believe RBR would have committed to a two year deal only with no reassurance about the future beyond that.

 

At least RBR have succeeded in beating Merc.  Ferrari's upswing took everyone by surprise it seems.  RBR will have to raise their game yet again....



#4543 Danyy

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 19:50

But it's sounding like more grid penalties coming in Russia for all four Red Bull cars. On F1 technical some days ago somebody posted a story from Japan which had Honda's Yamamoto saying a final upgrade would be coming, echoing what Jos Verstappen said on some dutch TV show after Monza.
Looking back, that schummie on the Verstappen forum looks to have genuine inside info, in July he said the spec 4 upgrade would come in two parts, bringing a potential 40kw (50bhp) overall, the first part in Spa bringing 25 bhp, this figure was said to be accurate by the Japanese sites, and now part 2 in Russia seems to be new turbo, plenum and fuel/lubes to prepare for a good showing in Suzuka.

Thanks for the info. I just want to see similar power to Ferrari and good traction out of slow corners and off the line if this update comes in Sochi. At least they can overtake there. Let’s see what happens then.

Edited by Danyy, 22 September 2019 - 19:51.


#4544 Danyy

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 19:56

I prefer a win at Suzuka over Sochi if I had to choose anyway

#4545 Marklar

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 22:03

Apparently Red Bull was mislead by their own simulator. The kerbs in there were smaller than in reality, hence why they brought the wrong package to this race, they've ended up with less downforce than Ferrari. Marko remarks that the engineers and Max should have noticed it.

https://www.auto-mot...-singapur-2019/

(sounds a bit hard to believe tbh, but hey)



#4546 ARTGP

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 23:39

To add, Max was not able to run full power near the end of the race, despite his request for more power.

 

They had several laps of safety car, so I do not think fuel was the issue getting to the end. Potentially all not happy with the latest Honda spec?

 

To be honest, I do think Honda are having some issues, but they are being very tight lipped, and have asked Red Bull to do the same to avoid any kind of Mclaren blowup.



#4547 Requiem84

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 05:46

To add, Max was not able to run full power near the end of the race, despite his request for more power.

They had several laps of safety car, so I do not think fuel was the issue getting to the end. Potentially all not happy with the latest Honda spec?

To be honest, I do think Honda are having some issues, but they are being very tight lipped, and have asked Red Bull to do the same to avoid any kind of Mclaren blowup.


I think it’s more a matter that this PU has several races to go. You cant keep using the higher power modes for long periods.

#4548 ferrarista

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 06:18

Apparently Red Bull was mislead by their own simulator. The kerbs in there were smaller than in reality, hence why they brought the wrong package to this race, they've ended up with less downforce than Ferrari. Marko remarks that the engineers and Max should have noticed it.

https://www.auto-mot...-singapur-2019/

(sounds a bit hard to believe tbh, but hey)

It would be a F3 team mistake.

#4549 Reddington

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 07:30

I think it’s more a matter that this PU has several races to go. You cant keep using the higher power modes for long periods.

Yeah, they know that passing in Singapore was hard anyway. And Max is a hard defender. And Lewis tends not to take too many risks when in that position. Turned out it was the right call. RBR always reads the races well.

#4550 SenorSjon

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 07:33

What if they had pitted Max for new mediums at the first SC? The gap was big enough to come back behind Albon. With a closed up field, he would have much fresher tires in a lighter car.

 

Regarding the engine mode, perhaps it was the best they got. It wasn't necessarily about PU-life.

 

I don't believe the kerb story. They come here for years now. Less DF than Ferrari? It is a street track!