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Red Bull Racing Technical Thread (RB15)


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Poll: Will the VTEC kick in? (400 member(s) have cast votes)

Can they fight for the championship?

  1. Yes (108 votes [27.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 27.00%

  2. No (220 votes [55.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 55.00%

  3. Don’t Know (72 votes [18.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.00%

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#4751 Requiem84

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 12:57

I had the feeling Max was managing the gap in the first stint though, so who knows how things would´ve been if Lewis was ahead? 

 

I followed the gaps closely. Initially Max was much faster (3-4 tenths). It then stabilised and then Lewis started chipping away. 

 

On the lap Lewis pitted, the gap was about 1,8 seconds I think. Max then had a green S1 when Lewis pitted (full engine mode on to protect the undercut), but his S2 was very slow, slower than his previous lap (38.1 or so instead of 37.3 earlier in that stint). That indicated to me that the tires were dropping of and that Verstappen couldn't really go quicker at that moment in the first stint. 



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#4752 Requiem84

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 13:01

It will be interesting to see whether they can pull off the season with 3 engines. Currently with 5 engines you enable more pace but you also have two write off races. Or will they gamble hoping that those 1-2 write-off races end with them scoring more points than expected?

Not only from the engine side, Red Bull generally has too many races where the set-up is wrong, the chassis not there, or whatever. That could be too much as well.

 

I think all teams should decide directly to use 4 PU's and get a penalty 1 race. 

 

Leclerc and Bottas already had to use 4 PU's (unplanned) and on top of that they problaby ran a few of the PU's at reduced power modes to stretch life. 

 

Getting a 10 place drop for an extra ICE one time per year will be OK for the championship, especially with more races to go. 

 

Going for only 3 pu's IMO is much more costly for the overall performance during the year. 



#4753 Danyy

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 13:30

It will be interesting to see whether they can pull off the season with 3 engines. Currently with 5 engines you enable more pace but you also have two write off races. Or will they gamble hoping that those 1-2 write-off races


They've already done 7 races on one engine, they said so earlier this year. This year wasn’t about that anyway, the plan was always to bring as many upgrades as they could to close the gap.

Edited by Danyy, 19 November 2019 - 13:32.


#4754 JeePee

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 13:33

I followed the gaps closely. Initially Max was much faster (3-4 tenths). It then stabilised and then Lewis started chipping away. 

 

On the lap Lewis pitted, the gap was about 1,8 seconds I think. Max then had a green S1 when Lewis pitted (full engine mode on to protect the undercut), but his S2 was very slow, slower than his previous lap (38.1 or so instead of 37.3 earlier in that stint). That indicated to me that the tires were dropping of and that Verstappen couldn't really go quicker at that moment in the first stint. 

Didn't he lap Russell in his inlap? Russell was right behind Kubica in the first stint and Max entered the pits right behind Kubica.



#4755 Requiem84

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 13:34

Didn't he lap Russell in his inlap? Russell was right behind Kubica in the first stint and Max entered the pits right behind Kubica.

 

Fair question, that could be true. I did not see it in any case.



#4756 Danyy

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 13:41

I think all teams should decide directly to use 4 PU's and get a penalty 1 race. 
 
Leclerc and Bottas already had to use 4 PU's (unplanned) and on top of that they problaby ran a few of the PU's at reduced power modes to stretch life. 
 
Getting a 10 place drop for an extra ICE one time per year will be OK for the championship, especially with more races to go. 
 
Going for only 3 pu's IMO is much more costly for the overall performance during the year.


I agree, the strat for Honda should be 4 for 2020.

#4757 SenorSjon

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 14:24

I followed the gaps closely. Initially Max was much faster (3-4 tenths). It then stabilised and then Lewis started chipping away. 

 

On the lap Lewis pitted, the gap was about 1,8 seconds I think. Max then had a green S1 when Lewis pitted (full engine mode on to protect the undercut), but his S2 was very slow, slower than his previous lap (38.1 or so instead of 37.3 earlier in that stint). That indicated to me that the tires were dropping of and that Verstappen couldn't really go quicker at that moment in the first stint. 

 

Both Williams cars were a PITA that lap and pitlane. Also RK had a much slower pit exit than Verstappen, at least costing Max another second. The Merc-subordinates have cost him at least a couple of seconds that lap.



#4758 Heyli

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 15:09

I followed the gaps closely. Initially Max was much faster (3-4 tenths). It then stabilised and then Lewis started chipping away. 

 

On the lap Lewis pitted, the gap was about 1,8 seconds I think. Max then had a green S1 when Lewis pitted (full engine mode on to protect the undercut), but his S2 was very slow, slower than his previous lap (38.1 or so instead of 37.3 earlier in that stint). That indicated to me that the tires were dropping of and that Verstappen couldn't really go quicker at that moment in the first stint. 

Ok, my bad. I somehow thought the gap was bigger (and was actually surprised Lewis got to pass so easily)



#4759 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 16:32

I followed the gaps closely. Initially Max was much faster (3-4 tenths). It then stabilised and then Lewis started chipping away.

On the lap Lewis pitted, the gap was about 1,8 seconds I think. Max then had a green S1 when Lewis pitted (full engine mode on to protect the undercut), but his S2 was very slow, slower than his previous lap (38.1 or so instead of 37.3 earlier in that stint). That indicated to me that the tires were dropping of and that Verstappen couldn't really go quicker at that moment in the first stint.

Max caught up and was held up by both Williams cars in sector 2 on the inlap for his first stop.

Edit: as others have said

Edited by FullOppositeLock, 19 November 2019 - 16:37.


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#4760 Requiem84

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 16:38

Max caught up and was held up by both Williams cars in sector 2 on the inlap for his first stop.

Edit: as others have said

 

He entered the pits just behind Kubica, so I don't think Kubica could have held him up in sector 2? 

 

He had to pass Russell then, that might explain his slow S2 time partly. 



#4761 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 17:00

He entered the pits just behind Kubica, so I don't think Kubica could have held him up in sector 2?

He had to pass Russell then, that might explain his slow S2 time partly.


Maybe. I do remember from the driver tracker Max was on Kubica’s rear wing in Juncao, so if not sector 2 he was almost certainly held up by him in sector 3.

#4762 ARTGP

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 17:13

Maybe. I do remember from the driver tracker Max was on Kubica’s rear wing in Juncao, so if not sector 2 he was almost certainly held up by him in sector 3.

 

Consider that Red Bull and Williams both regularly run absurd sub-2 second pitstops, Max had to have been stuck behind Kubica as he was entering the pitlane or something like that.


Edited by ARTGP, 19 November 2019 - 17:13.


#4763 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 17:25

Consider that Red Bull and Williams both regularly run absurd sub-2 second pitstops, Max had to have been stuck behind Kubica as he was entering the pitlane or something like that.


Well he was..?

#4764 ARTGP

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 17:35

Well he was..?

 

You seemed confused on it based on your post above....


Edited by ARTGP, 19 November 2019 - 17:36.


#4765 Marklar

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 09:00

Honda stays till 2021 at least. Further future will depend on Costs https://www.autospor...r-at-least-2021

#4766 wj_gibson

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 09:47

I kind of read as saying "our participation post-2021 is dependent on winning the title between now and then".



#4767 Quickshifter

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 09:48

One year extension hardly fills anyone with confidence that Honda are going to stick around long term. Only Ferrari and Mercedes have committed long term to the sport as far as supply of engines is concerned. Mercedes have signed long term deal with Williams and Mclaren recently while Ferrari will definitely be sticking around without a shadow of doubt. Renault's future looks even more shaky especially if next year  they fail to make a big step. Max will be watching the developments closely and only one year extension of engine supply deal isn't exactly going to satisfy him especially when he is looking to sign a long term deal with his contract ending come the end of 2020 season. He won't be signing an extension imho, if by the the time he signs a contract Honda have not extended the deal further.


Edited by Quickshifter, 27 November 2019 - 09:49.


#4768 Kao18

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 09:50

Very good news. For a first year this collaborative partnership certainly hasnt disappointed. Hopefully we will see a Red Bull Honda championship in the near future. It certainly has a nice ring to it.



#4769 Requiem84

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 10:05

This really is not good news.

 

Only 1 year - really?

 

That is not a commitment to F1 :(. How can RB invest in a long term relationship if the relationship is not sure? 

 

Yamamoto already said the budget for F1 was getting more difficult because electrification is taking place. To me it looks like they will likely pull out at 2022. Either because they won the title already and 'showed the world that they could do it', or they didn't win and higher management wasn't ready to commit to the budget anymore.

 

Sad moment. 



#4770 Branislav

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 10:14

Actually Honda depends on Max. If he leaves it's game over.



#4771 Requiem84

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 10:25

Honda went on a spending spree to catch up. But they are clearly done pouring money now. Yamamoto:

 

"It's positive to have good results," Honda's F1 managing director Masashi Yamamoto told Autosport in Brazil.

"But more important thing is a balance with the cost.

"We have to put lots of budget to accelerate our development to catch up the top runners.

"And now we are planning how to maintain current condition and reducing the cost at the same time."



#4772 statman

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:22

Does Red Bull/Toro Rosso get "free engines" just like McLaren or do they actually pay for them now? From the McLaren days:

 

The decision is believed to have cost McLaren as much as a net $100 million. This was thanks to it losing Honda's free engines and financial contribution, plus having to pay for Renault's power units.

 

I mean, if Honda swallows all the costs I can understand them doubting their long-term commitment.



#4773 Requiem84

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:30

Good point.

 

Initially Honda needed Red Bull / Toro Rosso, but now RB might start to need Honda. 

 

Better bargaining position for Honda to get some money. 

 

Afaik 'works' deals usually mean that PU's are provided for free.



#4774 Danyy

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:30

One year extension hardly fills anyone with confidence that Honda are going to stick around long term. Only Ferrari and Mercedes have committed long term to the sport as far as supply of engines is concerned. Mercedes have signed long term deal with Williams and Mclaren recently while Ferrari will definitely be sticking around without a shadow of doubt. Renault's future looks even more shaky especially if next year they fail to make a big step. Max will be watching the developments closely and only one year extension of engine supply deal isn't exactly going to satisfy him especially when he is looking to sign a long term deal with his contract ending come the end of 2020 season. He won't be signing an extension imho, if by the the time he signs a contract Honda have not extended the deal further.


If Max stays then Honda will be happy don’t worry. Not so sure about Mercedes though, they could go at the drop of a hat.

#4775 Branislav

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:37

Does Red Bull/Toro Rosso get "free engines"

Of course. RB is now Honda's works team.



#4776 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:52

Is Max big in Japan, apart from driving for Honda now? Is like the good (short) times with Alonso?

Max could take Honda along if he leaves, but the teams to leave to have their own PUs... McLaren is an exception, won't happen. That leaves Enstone. But if Enstone does great work, will Renault dump it?

I suppose this could also be a way for Honda assuming some purchase on F1/FIA. They are absolute arrived now. Three wins this season. F1 cannot afford to lose them. Mercedes has nearly won enough, Ferrari won't supply Red Bull anymore. Renault doesn't look like they want to be there. It's a fragile state. And we don't even have enough F1 teams.
Red Bull likes F1 as a marketing ploy but doesn't really NEED F1. They know how to create marketing opportunities. If they quit, they can start multiple racing series of their own. And make money off them, through cans and sponsoring/TV.

Yeah, I think Honda with their commitment, especially after McLaren and Alonso, to have a real say in matters now. Saying "sure" until 2025 would make them tag alongs.



#4777 Danyy

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 11:53

Honda went on a spending spree to catch up. But they are clearly done pouring money now. Yamamoto:


Well yeah naturally they spent much more than anyone over the years because they wanted to catch up. Once they are fully caught up I think they want to make sure nobody does a Mercedes and spends a billion to get an advantage. It’s a fair argument.

#4778 Talisman

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:00

If Max stays then Honda will be happy don’t worry. Not so sure about Mercedes though, they could go at the drop of a hat.

 

?

 

The cost of leaving is far far lower for Honda than Mercedes.  Honda can simply cease engine supply whenever they want and pay RBR some compensation.  Selling/shutting down a team is far costlier especially once the Concorde agreement costs are included.



#4779 Talisman

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 12:05

Is Max big in Japan, apart from driving for Honda now? Is like the good (short) times with Alonso?

Max could take Honda along if he leaves, but the teams to leave to have their own PUs... McLaren is an exception, won't happen. That leaves Enstone. But if Enstone does great work, will Renault dump it?

I suppose this could also be a way for Honda assuming some purchase on F1/FIA. They are absolute arrived now. Three wins this season. F1 cannot afford to lose them. Mercedes has nearly won enough, Ferrari won't supply Red Bull anymore. Renault doesn't look like they want to be there. It's a fragile state. And we don't even have enough F1 teams.
Red Bull likes F1 as a marketing ploy but doesn't really NEED F1. They know how to create marketing opportunities. If they quit, they can start multiple racing series of their own. And make money off them, through cans and sponsoring/TV.

Yeah, I think Honda with their commitment, especially after McLaren and Alonso, to have a real say in matters now. Saying "sure" until 2025 would make them tag alongs.

 

Neither Max nor Alonso are big in Japan.  Nor Jenson for that matter.  F1 is a purely minority interest in Japan.  People remember the Senna craze in the 80s/90s and seem to assume that F1 is still big there, it isn't.  Don't mistake the passion shown by the fans at Suzuka for widespread interest in the sport at a national level.

 

Honda's decisions to stay in F1 are not driven by any particular driver, they won't switch teams because Max leaves (which would be impossible anyway if he goes to Merc or Ferrari).  But I do agree that Honda are using their importance to F1 (as will the other manufacturers) to pressure Liberty for concessions.  The only difference with Honda is that they are only an engine supplier so their commitment to F1 is only as long as their supply contracts.  The brevity of the contract extension perhaps reflects Honda's belief that they can get more out of Liberty.

Honda mentions costs as an issue but as they themselves recognise, once they catch up the costs of development can be lowered while remaining competitive without any changes to the regulations.


Edited by Talisman, 27 November 2019 - 12:06.


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#4780 Branislav

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 13:16

Is Max big in Japan, apart from driving for Honda now? 

honda-hq.jpg



#4781 Kao18

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 13:25

They extended with a year which means at least  two more years of Red Bull Honda which means stability for Red Bull on the engine front during the transition phase which is a good thing.

 

Fully understand at this point Honda wont commit longer, why would they? There is nothing to gain for them by committing to a 4 or 5 year deal now.



#4782 taran

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 14:26

To be honest, I am a bit conflicted about this. A works deal has obvious benefits but there are plenty of works deals which were inferior to a good customer deal (Yamaha works engines never achieved much for example). 

 

The Honda is still inferior and there is no guarantee they will close the gap in 2020 as Ferrari and Mercedes show no signs of reaching the limits of the current engine regulations and Honda is talking about saving money before actually dominating F1. The Mercedes engine is still the benchmark in overall performance (at least with the modes the works team uses) and a Mercedes-powered Red Bull designed by Newey would likely be a championship contender in 2021.With Honda, I am just not that sure...

 

Free Honda engines and some installation input vs. (most likely very) competitive Mercedes engine acquired by raiding Red Bull's petty cash till.....



#4783 SenorSjon

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 15:41

Don't forget RB has a near limitless supply of engines for bench testing the whole car now. It paid dividends already, they have much less reliability failures than last year. The limited supply of bench engines also meant the rest of the car couldn't be tested very well.

 

2019 - 4x DNF

Gasly Baku - driveshaft, probably from running too hard on kerbs

Gasly Germany - crash

Verstappen Belgium - crash

Verstappen Japan - crash

 

2018 - 12x DNF

iirc, only 4x crash damage (Bahrain, Baku 2x, Belgium)


Edited by SenorSjon, 27 November 2019 - 15:47.


#4784 taran

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 15:48

Don't forget RB has a near limitless supply of engines for bench testing the whole car now. It paid dividends already, they have much less reliability failures than last year. The limited supply of bench engines also meant the rest of the car couldn't be tested very well.

 

That's a very good point. Could a customer team get more engines from Mercedes just for bench testing, assuming they could afford them?

Racing Point might need to consider this as they lost a few points due to (engine) unreliability.



#4785 SenorSjon

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Posted 27 November 2019 - 15:54

If they could afford the full car test bench that is. ;) Only the top 3 teams have those, Renault spend the money on Ricciardo instead of such a bench. :p



#4786 AustinF1

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 06:13

This really is not good news.

 

Only 1 year - really?

 

That is not a commitment to F1 :(. How can RB invest in a long term relationship if the relationship is not sure? 

 

Yamamoto already said the budget for F1 was getting more difficult because electrification is taking place. To me it looks like they will likely pull out at 2022. Either because they won the title already and 'showed the world that they could do it', or they didn't win and higher management wasn't ready to commit to the budget anymore.

 

Sad moment. 

I never thought they'd leave after this year, even if they do leave. To me this announcement just makes it official that they're taking one more year to decide what they'll do. I do agree that it doesn't look like a very good sign for Honda's presence in F1 beyond 2021.


Edited by AustinF1, 28 November 2019 - 06:15.


#4787 wj_gibson

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 07:05

Just out of interest, what do F1’s owners intend to do if Honda, Renault and Merc all decide to leave after 2021?



#4788 Requiem84

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 07:10

Buy FE.

#4789 Marklar

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 07:19

Well, Mercedes certainly wont leave as a engine supplier though, so most likely they would have Mercedes & Ferrari supplying the entire grid in this case (Mercedes already supplies nearly half of it in 2021), maybe some sponsor would also buy out the Renault & Honda engines and rebadge them (like TAG Heuer or more like it happened when Renault left in the 90s), and some teams would get new owners.

not very rosy, but also not the end. Wouldnt be the first time either.

Edited by Marklar, 28 November 2019 - 07:21.


#4790 taran

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 08:34

Just out of interest, what do F1’s owners intend to do if Honda, Renault and Merc all decide to leave after 2021?

 

Get an off the shelf engine and watch a rerun of the 1970s and 1990s....



#4791 wj_gibson

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 09:22

Get an off the shelf engine and watch a rerun of the 1970s and 1990s....

 

Ah, but off-the-shelf what?

 

If it's just an old-fashioned ICE V8 (as I suspect it might be, and as some fans seem to want it to be) then I think F1 is setting itself up for a fall when it comes to attracting new, younger viewers, or attracting manufacturers back in the future.



#4792 SenorSjon

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 10:10

Just out of interest, what do F1’s owners intend to do if Honda, Renault and Merc all decide to leave after 2021?

 

Supply the field with Ferrari V12's... :love:



#4793 Talisman

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 10:22

Ah, but off-the-shelf what?

If it's just an old-fashioned ICE V8 (as I suspect it might be, and as some fans seem to want it to be) then I think F1 is setting itself up for a fall when it comes to attracting new, younger viewers, or attracting manufacturers back in the future.


They’ll probably get an old V8 hooked up to a simple KERS and call it a hybrid.

#4794 wj_gibson

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 11:52

They’ll probably get an old V8 hooked up to a simple KERS and call it a hybrid.

 

Bring back the Life W12, that's what I say.



#4795 Ivanhoe

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 12:00

You’re living in a dream world. Never gonna happen, watch historic racing.

#4796 SenorSjon

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 13:43

You’re living in a dream world. Never gonna happen, watch historic racing.

 

What color pill did you take then?!



#4797 Requiem84

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Posted 28 November 2019 - 14:06

If youre lusting for V8/V10/V12’s there’s one simple question you should ask yourself:

How many people watch historic racing at the track or on tv?

#4798 SenorSjon

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Posted 29 November 2019 - 09:48

How many times is it broadcasted? MotorsTV doesn't excist anymore. And classic racing doesn't have a pull on me.



#4799 renzmann

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Posted 30 November 2019 - 15:16

fairly good qualy (+.35 is not too shabby here), although I had hoped for RBR to be a little more competitive before the weekend. Long runs and P2 do promise some fireworks tomorrow, though!



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#4800 Danyy

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 09:41

^ No fireworks on tracks like Abu Drabby, that’s probably why they have to have real fireworks go off at the end to wake everybody up again :lol:

Anyway I’m hoping the real fireworks happen in 2020. Red Bull installed the infrared tyre camera’s so they can use them in the test today like Mercedes did last year. Since there will be no pointless front wing changes I’m expecting Red Bull to start next year a lot stronger.

EKdVXcdXUAAqEpU.jpg