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Red Bull Racing Technical Thread (RB15)


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Poll: Will the VTEC kick in? (406 member(s) have cast votes)

Can they fight for the championship?

  1. Yes (111 votes [27.34%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 27.34%

  2. No (222 votes [54.68%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 54.68%

  3. Don’t Know (73 votes [17.98%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 17.98%

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#4851 sgtkate

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 11:22

The logic is flawed, but if you take away Red Bull's 65m, you also take away the title sponsor and a lot of sponsor surface on the car. It doesn't seem crazy that the worth of that is actually close to the 65m. 

 

Renaults 90m seems to be in a different ballpark though.

 

 

I think 65 million is a bloody brilliant Return on Investment for RB.

The exposure us so much more worth than that. 65 million is peanuts for their marketing budget.

 

 

No it doesn't.  If income matches expenditure the team itself has broken even.  It is Red Bull itself that has spent $65 million on the F1 team and that isn't money that has been 'lost' if you take into account brand exposure as advertising spend.

 

The budget shortfall to the top 2 is large but seems to have narrowed a bit.  I'm not that concerned for 2020 but it is concerning for 2021 as all the teams will have to develop two cars at the same time this year, inevitably the better funded and resourced teams will eke out an advantage over those who are less well supplied.  That said Ferrari does not have a good history of making good on their budget advantage over their rivals, whether it be Mercedes or Red Bull so in reality the only team RBR are handicapped against is Mercedes.

 

I don't disgaree it's good value for money. Lords knows the benefits Red Bull (the drinks company) get from their advertising in F1 but it must be phenomenal and totally worth the investment. I was simply referring to the pointless 'break even' graphic as you know that if RBR was $100M short somehow RB would top it up and if they were going to make profit RB would reduce their 'sponsorship', therefore they will ALWAYS break even and it's pointless and spin to show it as if it's an achievement.



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#4852 Requiem84

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 11:48

I don't disgaree it's good value for money. Lords knows the benefits Red Bull (the drinks company) get from their advertising in F1 but it must be phenomenal and totally worth the investment. I was simply referring to the pointless 'break even' graphic as you know that if RBR was $100M short somehow RB would top it up and if they were going to make profit RB would reduce their 'sponsorship', therefore they will ALWAYS break even and it's pointless and spin to show it as if it's an achievement.


I think the 65 million is an achievement :-). How much do Ferrari and Merc pour into their outfits? I haven’t checked actually..

#4853 Talisman

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 12:07

I don't disgaree it's good value for money. Lords knows the benefits Red Bull (the drinks company) get from their advertising in F1 but it must be phenomenal and totally worth the investment. I was simply referring to the pointless 'break even' graphic as you know that if RBR was $100M short somehow RB would top it up and if they were going to make profit RB would reduce their 'sponsorship', therefore they will ALWAYS break even and it's pointless and spin to show it as if it's an achievement.

 

That isn't how companies work.  If it was then Renault F1 (and every other manufacturer team) could simply spend their way to the top in the expectation that their parent company would simply cover the budget shortfall. 

 

Companies allocate money to F1 in advance allowing the team to predict its budget.  Any team that found itself short of funds in the expectation that the parent company would simply pony up the shortfall can expect heads to roll in short order.



#4854 lio007

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 13:58

Does their headcount include the PU departments?

No!

#4855 lio007

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 14:18

ok, in 2018 Red Bull spent 65M as well, whereas in 2018 they had a profit of 5M. We also have Toro Rosso to consider, where Red Bull spends 45M in 2018 and 2019. So in total, Red Bull spends 110M a year in F1, though for 2 teams, but by far the most. For sure it would be worth it, otherwise they wouldn't do it. In terms of headcount maybe we can sum up RBT and Toro Rosso to some extent, but that's just a wild guess. I also don't know how much the racefans-figures are fact based or to what extent they are estimations.

Edited by lio007, 03 January 2020 - 14:20.


#4856 renzmann

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 14:24

ok, in 2018 Red Bull spent 65M as well, whereas in 2018 they had a profit of 5M. We also have Toro Rosso to consider, where Red Bull spends 45M in 2018 and 2019. So in total, Red Bull spends 110M a year in F1, though for 2 teams, but by far the most. For sure it would be worth it, otherwise they wouldn't do it. In terms of headcount maybe we can sum up RBT and Toro Rosso to some extent, but that's just a wild guess. I also don't know how much the racefans-figures are fact based or to what extent they are estimations.

This went through my mind as well. 45M for Toro Rosso is a lot. PR-wise, RBR is far more important. Wouldn't it be smart to allocate those 45M to the main team? Of course, there is more to consider. TR generates income, is a nice rookie project, is important for Honda, etc. But still...



#4857 Ivanhoe

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 15:16

This went through my mind as well. 45M for Toro Rosso is a lot. PR-wise, RBR is far more important. Wouldn't it be smart to allocate those 45M to the main team? Of course, there is more to consider. TR generates income, is a nice rookie project, is important for Honda, etc. But still...


Toro Rosso got them Seb and Max, there’s your return on investment.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 04 January 2020 - 15:22.


#4858 Requiem84

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 20:24

And political power with an extra vote.

No matter how much you pump into one team, you’ll never get that with just one team.

#4859 renzmann

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 14:38

And political power with an extra vote.

No matter how much you pump into one team, you’ll never get that with just one team.

I guess you're right. I'm far to romantic for this kind of stuff... I don't like TR for the very reason that part of their concept is to never steal points from RBR.



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#4860 WouterF1

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 11:39

:clap:
 
rWotFWGq_bigger.png
Very proud and happy that @redbullracing will stay my home until 2023. We started this journey together and they have supported me from day 1. I want to win with @redbull
 and @HondaRacingF1, our goal is to fight for a World Championship together. The best is yet to come! #YesBoys

 

https://twitter.com/...494540809351169


Edited by WouterF1, 07 January 2020 - 11:43.


#4861 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 22:53

Some info taken from F1tech forums from that NHK doc.

- Honda conducts its own research on fuel, ExxonMobil only produces it.

- Before Austrian GP Honda suggested to Red Bull engineers to change the configuration of the front suspension to improve airflow into the sidepods (they saw some problems during French GP - hot race). That's why Max could use "engine 11 mode 5" and win the race.

- HondaJet engineers did an amazing job to save Honda's racing program. Before 2018 they found a way to stabilize the shaft connecting the turbine with the compressor. It was Honda's main problem (during McLaren era) after they changed the size of turbine and compressor (in Size Zero concept, MGU-H was just too small and couldn't generate as much energy as other PUs).

HondaJet engineers were able to solve this problem in the first attempt:

https://f1-gate.com/...a/f1_54357.html

Google translation -

Yasuaki Asaki makes an unusual decision to seek help from Honda Jet's engine development department. This was the first time Honda's aircraft development department was involved in Formula One.

"The atmosphere was that if we could use our technology in the world of F1, we ​​had never been involved in, we would be glad to do it. In general, everyone was flipping forward."

The structure of the aircraft turbofan jet engine was similar to that of the MGU-H. Naomi Strawashi says that when she first saw the MGU-H, she quickly found the cause of the trouble.

"When I saw the long shaft, the turbines on both sides, and the place to support the bearings, I felt honestly," Is this really going around? ", Says Naomi Strawashi.

"The biggest cause was the bearings that supported the shaft. The aircraft division changed the position and number of bearings and adjusted the installation method at each location. In addition, improvements were made such as changing the thickness of the shaft depending on the location. This enabled the shaft to rotate stably.

Yasuaki Asaki says, "I was skeptical whether it would be fixed as soon as I asked the jet."

"It was incredible to fix it in one shot. I was surprised. Even though my company, I thought that it was amazing that our company had great technical skills."


- In 2018 Honda Jet engineers designed new shape of blades for turbine and compressor.

- The target was to keep the power level and generate more energy with the MGU-H, even in lower flow conditions. These changes were introduced in the 2019 engine and it was a good step forward.

- 2018 Honda & Red Bull (via. Toro Rosso) used to build mutual trust and develop communication methods - Franz Tost did an amazing job there.

- In 2019 both Red Bull and Toro Rosso car were designed around Honda engine and with Honda's engineering input.

- Honda has invested a lot of money in buying new production tools - aluminium engine parts are no longer made by casting. Now they use advanced machine tools.

- All engines are produced in Sakura but their tuning (maps) is carried out at Honda Milton Keynes.


#4862 Danyy

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 07:35

Und der 2020er Motor läuft bereits erfolgreich auf dem Prüfstand. „Wenn die anderen da noch besser sein wollen, müssten sie schon dramatisch zulegen“, warnt Marko die Konkurrenz.

Translated with DeepL: And the 2020 engine is already running successfully on the test bench. "If the others want to be even better there, they would have to make dramatic gains," Marko warns the competition.


I think Max must have known for a while what Honda was bringing for 2020 but wanted see it in action on the bench first before he signed. Hopefully it’s as good a step as it sounds.

Edited by Danyy, 08 January 2020 - 07:38.


#4863 SenorSjon

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 10:09

I think the biggest win is in driveability. Too often did we hear Verstappen complain about the engine doing weird things with throttle input in higher modes.



#4864 Reddington

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 05:53

So any gossip about the RB16? I still haven’t read that the crash tests have been done with good result and also still no presentation date as only team.

Sparky? Should we worry?

Edited by Reddington, 25 January 2020 - 08:07.


#4865 Danyy

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 07:36

Silence is golden

#4866 Clatter

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 17:51

And the thing is how long wil they keep on developing the 2019 car throughout the year? With the up and coming rules changes in 2020, maybe untill summerbreak before all recourses will be on 2020 car. So, not much time to get things right this time around imho. Therefore, every 2 weeks help and might make the difference. This time around. :p

Depends how well the championship fight is going I would think. If they are in with a shout they will develop the car all season long.

#4867 Branislav

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 18:06

Some info to talk about

 

Today's edition of La Gazzetta dello Sport gives an overview of which areas Red Bull has focused on in an attempt to present itself as Mercedes' main opponent in the F1 2020 world championship. Below are some extracts from analysis by Paolo Filisetti which identifies the strengths of the RB16. To underline the hypothesis linked to a rear suspension designed to obtain a steering effect inherited from Mercedes, a team from which Red Bull drew some technicians who changed their jacket in mid-2019.

 

The moves to become world champions

 

"The RB16 should follow, at the general level, the same furrow with a more extensive integration of elements that amplify the outwash effect that the RB15 has only hinted at without ever properly adopting it. Work is planned on the conformation of the front wing and the S-duct. The apparently simple front suspension was characterized by a third shock absorber equipped with Belleville disc springs, but sophisticated in the points of attachment to the hub carrier, split. The scheme will be maintained in the new car. The same goes for the rear one where, however, thanks also to the passage of some Mercedes technicians in the middle of last year, there may be some news to recreate a 'pseudo steering effect' exclusive heritage of the Brackley team in 2019. At the heart of the project is the Honda power unit. The RA620H will benefit from the close collaboration between Milton Keynes' designers and Japanese technicians. The layout, which had been revolutionized in 2019, should not vary with the ERS radiator above the airbox. But the study of internal flows will allow Newey & co to maintain the primacy among the 'Slim' single-seaters ”.


Paolo Filisetti , La Gazzetta dello Sport 25 January 2020



#4868 Danyy

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 17:16

First shot of RB16!
7-CBC7-F6-F-2-EDF-40-D5-B929-9-CAFF78-B3

#4869 Ivanhoe

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 17:46

Open air filter on the right. Cool!  :p



#4870 Danyy

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 17:59

Open air filter on the right. Cool!  :p


Lovely catch! :)

#4871 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 18:49

Marko says car launch and shakedown at Silverstone, Feb 12th

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=p1sF6_ODZfQ

#4872 ViMaMo

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Posted 31 January 2020 - 03:17

"Alongside Mercedes it will be Red Bull with a flying start in 2020. My sources confirm that particularly Honda has improved significantly over the winter” said Luigi Perna of La Gazzetta dello Sport.

‘I think they will be able to challenge Ferrari from the first race on‘ concluded Perna on the podcast Pit Talk.

#4873 Danyy

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Posted 03 February 2020 - 23:05

Marko says car launch and shakedown at Silverstone, Feb 12th

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=p1sF6_ODZfQ


It’s official https://twitter.com/...8335079424?s=21
9 days

#4874 Otaku

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 13:54

"Alongside Mercedes it will be Red Bull with a flying start in 2020. My sources confirm that particularly Honda has improved significantly over the winter” said Luigi Perna of La Gazzetta dello Sport.
 

 

We've been reading that since forever now  :lol:  I'll wait and see for myself.



#4875 lio007

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 04:43

So any gossip about the RB16? I still haven’t read that the crash tests have been done with good result and also still no presentation date as only team.

Sparky? Should we worry?

Hm...it's a pity that Sparky is so quiet in the last couple of weeks.

Edited by lio007, 05 February 2020 - 04:43.


#4876 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 07:34

Hm...it's a pity that Sparky is so quiet in the last couple of weeks.


Probably hard at work. It’s got to be a good sign. ;)

Optimistic vibes coming out of the team and drivers in recent days. Let’s hope they can deliver.

#4877 renzmann

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 09:25

Probably hard at work. It’s got to be a good sign.  ;)

Optimistic vibes coming out of the team and drivers in recent days. Let’s hope they can deliver.

We hear that every year. The only thing that gives me reason to be optimistic is Honda. I would be surprised if Honda didn't give RBR a competitive engine.



#4878 Goron3

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 09:38

We hear that every year. The only thing that gives me reason to be optimistic is Honda. I would be surprised if Honda didn't give RBR a competitive engine.

You say that but last year they clearly knew they were on the back foot as they were starting from zero with Honda. Even in 2018, they were confident in the chassis but they knew that their PU was slow and unreliable.



#4879 taran

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 10:39

You say that but last year they clearly knew they were on the back foot as they were starting from zero with Honda.

 

Marko 2019: I expect 5 Grand Prix wins this year..... :cool:



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#4880 SenorSjon

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 10:47

Marko 2019: I expect 5 Grand Prix wins this year..... :cool:

 

Well, Mexico was a great opportunity to win one and they messed up Singapore themselves. So 5 was possible.



#4881 Ali623

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 10:51

Marko 2019: I expect 5 Grand Prix wins this year..... :cool:

 

Austria - Won on merit

Germany - Lucky win

Brazil - Won on merit

 

Hungary - Was in contention to win

Singapore - Was in contention to win

Mexico- Probably would have been in contention to win

 

Was definitely possible - and that was with effectively with no second driver backing him up all year



#4882 SenorSjon

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 10:51

What makes you think he has backup this year? 



#4883 Kao18

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 10:53

Yeah RB should have had 4 (Mexico) wins last year so Marko wasn't that far of. And that is not taking into account Gasly and Albon who somewhat disappointed compared to Max.

 

I believe this is the first year in many that there are no real weak points or big doubts pre season, not on the chassis side (no regulation changes) and not on the engine side. Max has extended, Honda is very positive and has a very strong desire to succeed. All the ingredients are there for a championship title bid imo. I think this will be the year they will have a shot.


Edited by Kao18, 06 February 2020 - 10:54.


#4884 Ali623

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 10:58

If Albon isn't up to the 'back-up' driver role this season, Max has no chance regardless of how he and the car performs. (unless they're Merc 14-16 levels of dominant obviously)



#4885 Marklar

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 11:21

You say that but last year they clearly knew they were on the back foot as they were starting from zero with Honda. Even in 2018, they were confident in the chassis but they knew that their PU was slow and unreliable.

Nah, they were pretty hyped up after the roll out (the first in ages) last year. Some people even thought genuinely because if Max says it's good then it must be good since he is always honest :p

Nobody of them knows where they truly stand until they hit the track in Melbourne (or even later). People should have learned that after last year the latest.

Edited by Marklar, 06 February 2020 - 11:22.


#4886 Kao18

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 11:42

Nah, they were pretty hyped up after the roll out (the first in ages) last year. Some people even thought genuinely because if Max says it's good then it must be good since he is always honest :p

Nobody of them knows where they truly stand until they hit the track in Melbourne (or even later). People should have learned that after last year the latest.

 

Mwah, I think the tone was definitely different last year. Here is a quote from Max from early 2019:

 

 

With Honda, we’re expecting a lot, we’re all very positive but I think it also needs to take a little bit of time, it cannot be from race one it will be perfect. For sure there will be moments where, as a team, we make mistakes or it’s not going as we want it to, but I think what is very important is that the team and Honda, we are pushing really hard to improve the development. At the moment, I am of course very optimistic, but also realistic and I think time will tell how we are going to perform.

 

Of course all the teams are always positive pre season and we have to wait and see but personally I am much more optimistic about a possible title challenge this year then I was last year.



#4887 Marklar

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 11:45

If Albon isn't up to the 'back-up' driver role this season, Max has no chance regardless of how he and the car performs. (unless they're Merc 14-16 levels of dominant obviously)

No chance is pushing it but he would definitely need either him performing better, Red Bull being better or Bottas taking more points off Hamilton than expected.

Alonso had a useless team mate in his Ferrari days too, and it nearly worked despite a clear car disadvantage. It depends on the competition of course, though.

Mwah, I think the tone was definitely different last year. Here is a quote from Max from early 2019:


Of course all the teams are always positive pre season and we have to wait and see but personally I am much more optimistic about a possible title challenge this year then I was last year.

More positive for sure, but that's about it. Everything else is written in the stars.

Edited by Marklar, 06 February 2020 - 11:47.