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Williams Technical Thread (FW42)


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#1951 player1s

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 07:08

Whoever wrote that Williams loses 1 second from the gearbox has no idea what he is talking about.

 

If the Mercedes suits decide to pull the plug tomorrow, Hass is ruined. In the meantime, they have no hope of ever escaping the midfield.

On the other hand, Williams building their own gearbox means that they play the long game. They still hope they will be back to where they belong. That may sound unrealistic given their current form, but it's an indication of the team's mindset.

 

That first line is ironic looking at the second line.

 

Haas will in no way be affected if Mercedes calls it quits as Haas works closely with Ferrari. And despite their numerous treats I dont see them quit any time soon.



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#1952 Mithrandir

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 08:05

That first line is ironic looking at the second line.

 

Haas will in no way be affected if Mercedes calls it quits as Haas works closely with Ferrari. And despite their numerous treats I dont see them quit any time soon

Obviously I made a mistake from my rashness. Replace Hass with Racing Point and my point stands. Yet, you chose to focus on semantics.



#1953 player1s

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 08:22

Obviously I made a mistake from my rashness. Replace Hass with Racing Point and my point stands. Yet, you chose to focus on semantics.

 

If Racing point loses Mercedes, they'll end up with one of the other engines and likely can buy the rear end from them too.
It wont be the end of the world for them.

 

Williams are just being stubborn idiots for refusing the best engine, with the best gearbox with the best rearend because they want to build everything themselves.
See where that got them.



#1954 Mithrandir

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 09:37

If Racing point loses Mercedes, they'll end up with one of the other engines and likely can buy the rear end from them too.
It wont be the end of the world for them.

 

Williams are just being stubborn idiots for refusing the best engine, with the best gearbox with the best rearend because they want to build everything themselves.
See where that got them.

I'm sure you know best.



#1955 Anderis

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 09:55

If Racing point loses Mercedes, they'll end up with one of the other engines and likely can buy the rear end from them too.
It wont be the end of the world for them.

The problem starts when there are many teams dependent on what other constructors provide them and a few suppliers. That gives any of those suppliers so much power because when they threaten to leave F1, it suddenly is a loss of not only themselves as a team but also a supplier for several other teams that need it to be able to race. Those teams can then link up with other suppliers which only makes those who decided not to leave even more powerful and influencial as having a new supplier joining F1 is such a rare thing nowadays. Then F1 has to bend over and over again in favour of those suppliers with so few independent teams.

 

I'm somehow glad that Williams still maintains the ability to produce their own gearbox. Once they decide to ditch it, it's much harder to get back there again. If something goes wrong and F1 has a shortage of big manufacturers, there's at least an independent constructor that doesn't need as much of external technology to be able to race. I also feel like having half of the grid being sort of B-teams far from being an optimal thing for F1 or at least for my enjoyment of it.



#1956 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 09:59

If Racing point loses Mercedes, they'll end up with one of the other engines and likely can buy the rear end from them too.
It wont be the end of the world for them.

Williams are just being stubborn idiots for refusing the best engine, with the best gearbox with the best rearend because they want to build everything themselves.
See where that got them.


Well it got them 3rd in the WCC for two years and then a possibly more representative 5th for two years. The sport hasn’t changed dramatically since 2017 so whatever has caused their recent problems isn’t to do with their constructor approach.

#1957 Anderis

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 11:03

Also it's worth noticing Williams finished inside top3 in WCC and was battling Red Bull and Ferrari like equal throughout 2014/2015. When was the last time a team buying gearbox etc. from another team was performing on that level?

 

That's why I'm not happy with teams like RP, Haas etc. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the teams for this approach, I blame F1. These teams dependent on others for supplying them seem to have a maximum level they never seem to be able to exceed and it's pretty uninspiring to have half of the grid like that, especially when we only have 10 teams in F1. Williams might have had some pretty damn low lows in recent years but their highs were still higher than any of those relying on others for gearbox etc. To me it seems it would be beneficial for competition to have more teams like Williams, because when they get it right, they are actually, in the right circumstances, able to threaten the big teams. Teams like Haas, Racing Point etc. seem to be not and to be a solid midfielder is an absolute maximum these teams have been able to achieve the way they operate. The Williams way might be riskier but doesn't set them as Formula 1B team by default.

 

That's why I don't get the bashing for Williams for sticking with their own gearbox. Yes, going with Mercedes rear-end could have helped them to avoid absolute disasters like 2019. But suppose they solve whatever engineering issues they have ATM. Would then F1 be better with Williams running their own parts or being dependent on Mercedes parts? I dare to say the former.


Edited by Anderis, 08 July 2019 - 11:08.


#1958 SenorSjon

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 12:21

In 2014-2016 the Mercedes was the engine to have. They even used one less than needed! I wonder what kind of performance they could have gotten if they used another PU. Once the token system was released again, the gap was closed a bit and other teams got by easier. Don't forget a lot of grip is added with the wider cars/tires since 2017 and that is when they really faltered.



#1959 djparky

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 12:32

Every complains how only Mercedes is winning, well technically only Mercedes, Ferrari and RB... well.. does anyone really believe that Mercedes or Ferrari powered buying engines or TR buying RB old bits teams will ever wins if they buy their kits... FAT CHANCE.

McLaren and WIlliams independance gives them A CHANCE.. limited, yes but a chance for a realt chance at winning..

NO WAY Alfa, HAAS, RP, TR will every win a WCC.. perhaps the odd ball race but never on a straight up fight.

We need to limit these teams not make F1 explode with HAAS-TR models.. then we'll never break the stalemate we have had for far to long now of only those 3 teams having any chance of a victory let alone a shot at a WCC..

We need to support and prop F1 and keep reminding people during race weekends how IMPORTANT to F1 Williams, McLaren and RB are and how sick it is to allow TR, HAAS like deals after 3 year lets say.


Williams have zero chance of winning again, retaining their total independence in the current world is ignoring the harsh reality of modern F1. Maclaren can simply aim to be best of the rest- which they're doing at the minute.

The other midfield teams will never win a race, and will at best compete for 7th place. F1 will remain a 3 horse race whilst those teams are in the series under these rules.

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#1960 PayasYouRace

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 12:39

The reality of modern F1 doesn’t automatically translate to the reality of future F1. Abandoning parts of their manufacturing capability to chase short term gains when their technical failings have clearly been more complex than that would be very short sighted.

#1961 SenorSjon

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 13:04

What short term? They have won a race in 2004 and 2012. That's it. 



#1962 Mithrandir

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 14:08

What short term? They have won a race in 2004 and 2012. That's it. 

So... the way to get back to victories is to buy from Mercedes. :lol:



#1963 player1s

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 14:16

So... the way to get back to victories is to buy from Mercedes. :lol:

 

Buying from Mercedes means less development costs in that department. Which can be spent on other parts of the car. Which hypothetically leads to better results. Better results lead to being more interesting for sponsors which could lead to more income. More income means more money to put into development and keep the circle going.

 

Buying parts like Haas or Racing Point only get you so far, for the final push you basically need a engine partner and developing your own parts completely.

 

If building everything yourself only leads to dropping down the field and currently being dead last, it might be time to rethink your stance on buying parts.



#1964 WilliamsF1Fan

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 15:44

Buying from Mercedes means less development costs in that department. Which can be spent on other parts of the car. Which hypothetically leads to better results. Better results lead to being more interesting for sponsors which could lead to more income. More income means more money to put into development and keep the circle going.

 

Buying parts like Haas or Racing Point only get you so far, for the final push you basically need a engine partner and developing your own parts completely.

 

If building everything yourself only leads to dropping down the field and currently being dead last, it might be time to rethink your stance on buying parts.

 

Where were these amazing sponsors when Williams finished 3rd two seasons in a row?  Martini had been signed when Williams had another shocker of a season.  



#1965 Paco

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 18:56

Buying rear ends should be BANNED immediately.  If you can't even build yourself a rear end or front end.. then how can you consider yourself a F1 Racing team... its ridiculous. 

 

I've accepted the gearbox engine game but this crap with HAAS not even building in-house their own tub or aero package is maddening enough.. then add in .. hey, lets buy someones last year tech or even this year suspension systems.

 

Then what is an F1 team .. doing nothing but buying other people proven ideas.. idioticy.  I get why.. causes its legal to do so but that is just plainly wrong.


Edited by Paco, 08 July 2019 - 20:24.


#1966 tomazy

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 17:08

we have visible updates in Silverstone!!!!! :eek:
D_IF-L2XUAMIIEG.jpg

https://twitter.com/...987467762208768

New mirrors, New vain on top of the sidepod that does not blend in to sidepod deflector and new vain under the sidepod. This is what I can see from this pics.

Comparison picture (best i could find in a hurry):
XPB_990634_1200px-1080x675.jpg


Edited by tomazy, 10 July 2019 - 19:41.


#1967 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 07:32

In 2014-2016 the Mercedes was the engine to have. They even used one less than needed! I wonder what kind of performance they could have gotten if they used another PU. Once the token system was released again, the gap was closed a bit and other teams got by easier. Don't forget a lot of grip is added with the wider cars/tires since 2017 and that is when they really faltered.

 

Actually at the beginning of 2017 they had a very decent car at the head of the midfield. Only bad luck and reliability stopped Massa accruing the points they deserved.

 

But they didn't develop it well (as with 2015 & 2016) and things only got worse once they let Pat Symonds go.



#1968 Boing 2

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 10:48

There are a few points about having your own gearbox department to bear in mind. Firstly it gives you more design alternatives in terms of weight distribution, packaging efficiencies and loophole exploitation. If I remember correctly the reason why most of the grid struggled to duplicate Brawns double decker diffuser in 09 was because their gearbox designs wouldn't allow it, if you make your own box then you can exploit these loopholes, if you take one off the shelf you can't. Secondly, it takes YEARS of hard work and a ton of investment to get a top flight gearbox department up and running from scratch and if you want to win you will need one, improving an exsiting department requires much less money and time. Finally, if you're trying to attract a works engine deal it will be much easier if they can focus on the engine and leave the team to do it's own box, McLaren and Red Bull both made their own gearboxes when they had works Honda and Renault deals.

 

The notion that William's business model is defunct is pretty strange considering Red Bull dominated the sport for 4 seasons just half a dozen years ago with a similar one. OK they had stronger funding from a parent company but they were a self-contained racing company making their own chassis and gearbox with a works engine deal. If Williams can secure the funding and a works engine (big if, I know) that model could deliver again.


Edited by Boing 2, 11 July 2019 - 10:49.


#1969 SparkPlug86

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 13:59

https://www.autospor...ackage-revealed

 

More info on the barge board update for Silverstone. 



#1970 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 14:31

https://www.motorspo...e-deal/4492518/

 

Was someone speaking odd sentences launching the Renault rumours to get Merc back to McLaren?

 

 

 

There are a few points about having your own gearbox department to bear in mind. Firstly it gives you more design alternatives in terms of weight distribution, packaging efficiencies and loophole exploitation. If I remember correctly the reason why most of the grid struggled to duplicate Brawns double decker diffuser in 09 was because their gearbox designs wouldn't allow it, if you make your own box then you can exploit these loopholes, if you take one off the shelf you can't. Secondly, it takes YEARS of hard work and a ton of investment to get a top flight gearbox department up and running from scratch and if you want to win you will need one, improving an exsiting department requires much less money and time. Finally, if you're trying to attract a works engine deal it will be much easier if they can focus on the engine and leave the team to do it's own box, McLaren and Red Bull both made their own gearboxes when they had works Honda and Renault deals.

 

 

The notion that William's business model is defunct is pretty strange considering Red Bull dominated the sport for 4 seasons just half a dozen years ago with a similar one. OK they had stronger funding from a parent company but they were a self-contained racing company making their own chassis and gearbox with a works engine deal. If Williams can secure the funding and a works engine (big if, I know) that model could deliver again.

 

 

Other snippet from the mentioned article why Williams is keeping the gearbox. It seems they want it off the 'to buy' list.

 

 

"We will now make our decision around what we will do ourselves versus outsourcing – whether that be with Mercedes or alternative suppliers.
 
"But it is all just dependent on the capacity we have at Williams and what we do best versus what other people may do better. But 2021 will bring a shift with how teams can collaborate anyway and we want to dial down those collaborations."

https://www.motorspo...e-deal/4492518/

 

Was someone speaking odd sentences launching the Renault rumours to get Merc back to McLaren?


Edited by SenorSjon, 11 July 2019 - 14:33.


#1971 WilliamsF1Fan

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 16:40

Good to see such obvious new parts on the car this weekend, hopefully they add pace, or at the very least actually work!  The noises coming from the team paint a picture of a much calmer operation which can only be a good thing.  



#1972 Rodaknee

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 22:50

Big question. Who gets the new parts?

#1973 SparkPlug86

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 23:09

Big question. Who gets the new parts?

 

Oh lord... ya had to ask lol

 

I'd assume, whoever is in front in the WDC... so, GR  :rolleyes:



#1974 YoungGun

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 23:19

Oh lord... ya had to ask lol

 

I'd assume, whoever is in front in the WDC... so, GR  :rolleyes:

 

No, it's GR's home GP so he gets them first ... :rolleyes:



#1975 MaGiK

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 04:32

Erm...both?

#1976 miwost

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 10:16

Nice stability of the car in first sector first corners on mediums by George. Havent seen this on Roberts softs yesterday. Mainly sliding and fighting with the car. Really strange that a driver who cant accelarate and take the corner properly is in F1.. xD money is everything Im guessing.

#1977 MaGiK

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 11:09

Onboards from todays FP3 looked pretty nice and stable....but the gap is  1,5s  Racing Point and 2s to Haas and Alfa.

Despite visible upgrades Williams doesnt seem to get any closer. Quite the opposite actually...



#1978 TomNokoe

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 11:21

The car is too draggy with that barn door rear wing.

#1979 Paco

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 12:30

Onboards from todays FP3 looked pretty nice and stable....but the gap is  1,5s  Racing Point and 2s to Haas and Alfa.

Despite visible upgrades Williams doesnt seem to get any closer. Quite the opposite actually...

 

You do get other teams also get better, upgrade and understand their car just as much.  Sure the headroom for improvement is larger but RP staff were always pretty handy so it's going to be tough to close the gap to them.  ALFA on the other hand, could be the better judge if Williams are making progress.  That said, it's always in F1 nearly impossible to close a gap during the season.. Williams could be it wont be with minor stuff.  The minor stuff is hopefully settling the car in corners or on straights etc.