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Mercedes-AMG Technical Thread (W10 EQ Power+)


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#6001 LightningMcQueen

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 18:09

The Merc domination outcry wasn't based on realism. Everything went Merc's way those races, resulting in much more wins than actually "deserved" pacewise.


Only Bahrain falls into this category, Baku yes Ferrari had quickest car in qualy thanks to monster straights but no where in the race

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#6002 Con1

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 22:04

Just how much of Merc's straight line deficit comes down to the engine and how much to Ferrari's low drag concept? I'm not convinced the engine is all that far behind tbh.

When you can't close a gap from one end of the straight to the other where you have a tow and the DRS wide open for half of that straight, there is something more than low v high drag going on.



#6003 SonGoku

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 22:46

The Mercedes engine is nothing special compared to the Ferrari, the paddock says it, even Wolff says it, don't know why that is so hard to accept. Merc has a beast of a chassis and that will win them this title.

#6004 teejay

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 23:44

Ferrari have clearly had the better engine package for at least the last 18 months. 



#6005 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 00:35

When you can't close a gap from one end of the straight to the other where you have a tow and the DRS wide open for half of that straight, there is something more than low v high drag going on.

 

:rolleyes:

 

A suggestion that Ferrari are cheating the power unit rules is utterly absurd.  :down:  



#6006 4444

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 00:53

:rolleyes:

 

A suggestion that Ferrari are cheating the power unit rules is utterly absurd.  :down:  

You came to that conclusion on your own. The poster never said anything about cheating.



#6007 teejay

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:54

:rolleyes:

 

A suggestion that Ferrari are cheating the power unit rules is utterly absurd.  :down:  

 

Yeah don't think that was the intent of the post - more so that they also have more power rather than just less drag. 



#6008 w1Y

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 06:58

Engine is more than power. Effieciency if massively vital for the race. Its rare that a car can hound another car at the front for most of the race.

In qualy fuel loads dont matter. However, merc clearly need to make some gains on the peak power while maintaining their efficiency projectory. Easier said than done.

Also we have seen in past years that Monza isnt the easiest track to overtake at the front. Kimis tyres completely went off last year and was still difficult to overtake and that was before the engine gap increased this year.

Losing in Monza doesnt raise any concerns. It wasnt like Hungary where ferrari nearly got lapped on pure pace. They need to improve power but its not disastrous.

#6009 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:19



#6010 AnR

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:36

 

makes me even more impressed by Leclerc, Merc threw everything at him, strategy, 2 different driver attacking, better tyres, and he took it all and won in a slower car  :cool:



#6011 Huffer

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:37

:rolleyes:

 

A suggestion that Ferrari are cheating the power unit rules is utterly absurd.  :down:  

 

I don't think I'm alone here when I'm wondering what on earth you are harping on about here. Where exactly, is this accusation of cheating?



#6012 Whatisvalis

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:56

makes me even more impressed by Leclerc, Merc threw everything at him, strategy, 2 different driver attacking, better tyres, and he took it all and won in a slower car :cool:


He was hardly driving a bus around Monza.

#6013 Marklar

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 13:01

With Ferrari's straight line advantage all he had to do was not making mistakes, which he actually did twice, but the FIA let him get away with this. Vettel was punished harder for only making one in Montreal.


Edited by Marklar, 11 September 2019 - 13:02.


#6014 Con1

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 20:53

:rolleyes:

 

A suggestion that Ferrari are cheating the power unit rules is utterly absurd.  :down:  

:lol: 

 

As others have helpfully pointed out, I didn't suggest any cheating whatsoever. I was suggesting that this wasn't just down to aero efficiency...engine power has to come in to it as well.



#6015 Hela

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 21:42

makes me even more impressed by Leclerc, Merc threw everything at him, strategy, 2 different driver attacking, better tyres, and he took it all and won in a slower car  :cool:


Leclerc did good although he rode his luck at times. Which is more than I can say for the other lead Ferrari driver :)

#6016 Retrofly

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 10:01

makes me even more impressed by Leclerc, Merc threw everything at him, strategy, 2 different driver attacking, better tyres, and he took it all and won in a slower car  :cool:

:lol:



#6017 Ivanhoe

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 11:43

It was slower in the parts where you can’t overtake.

#6018 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 12:04

makes me even more impressed by Leclerc, Merc threw everything at him, strategy, 2 different driver attacking, better tyres, and he took it all and won in a slower car  :cool:

Horses for courses......  ;)



#6019 rodlamas

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 14:45

Mercedes had the fastest car on race pace on both races, but given the circumstances, Leclerc was able to win them both. And both races Ferrari was supposed to win by a country mile + Red Bull would have been able to mount a challenge to Mercedes.



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#6020 gillesfan76

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 15:18

makes me even more impressed by Leclerc, Merc threw everything at him, strategy, 2 different driver attacking, better tyres, and he took it all and won in a slower car  :cool:

 

Imagine what Leclerc would be doing in that Red Bull then. Probably would have won at least 4 races this season already.



#6021 kernel

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 15:20

Mercedes had the fastest car on race pace on both races, but given the circumstances, Leclerc was able to win them both. And both races Ferrari was supposed to win by a country mile + Red Bull would have been able to mount a challenge to Mercedes.

 

They had a greater advantage at Spa than Monza, but you can't pass easily around those two tracks if you don't have the straightline speed.



#6022 zibby43

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 19:24

Article from Mark Hughes on how Mercedes started skewing their setup heavily toward race pace because they had such a large pace advantage.

Red Bull's performances in Silverstone and Hungary has led Merc to once again considering a compromise between track position and flat-out race pace.

Given the Monaco-like nature of Singapore, I expect them to opt for track position.

https://www.motorspo...apore-shoot-out

"Previously, Mercedes’ advantage was so big the team could do an optimal race set up and still be sure to set pole . . . [C]oming into Silverstone, Mercedes had set the car up to protect the hard-worked front-left tyre so as to allow them a competitive stint length required for the optimum strategy. But that damn near lost them pole to Verstappen’s Red Bull . . .

. . . At Hungary, a similar thing. The front left needed to be protected – and this time that did cost Mercedes pole to Verstappen. The tiny difference in the lap time between Hamilton and Verstappen was all in the first two corners – where the Mercedes' front tyres weren’t quite up to temperature and the Red Bull’s were. So now Red Bull had track position, but Mercedes had the faster race car."



#6023 beachdrifter

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 18:46

Looks like a close qualifying once again after the early sessions. According to Merc engineers, Max would have been slightly faster than Lewis without traffic in the last sector today. 

 

We haven't seen a Merc on pole since July, so hopefully Lewis can get it this time. 



#6024 SonGoku

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 18:48

Looks like a close qualifying once again after the early sessions. According to Merc engineers, Max would have been slightly faster than Lewis without traffic in the last sector today.

We haven't seen a Merc on pole since July, so hopefully Lewis can get it this time.


Lewis has to do it then, because Merc quali pace isn't anything special at the moment.

#6025 beachdrifter

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 21:42

Mark Hughes on - among other things - the widening engine power gap between Ferrari and Merc

 

(now 30 bhp in quali, 20 bhp in the race)

 

https://www.motorspo...-baffles-rivals


Edited by beachdrifter, 20 September 2019 - 21:44.


#6026 KeithD68

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 22:06

There are tracks which suit the Ferrari, and tracks which suit the Red Bull, but the Merc is in the compromise sweet spot and over a season will offer more consistent outcomes



#6027 beachdrifter

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 22:12

Lewis has to do it then, because Merc quali pace isn't anything special at the moment.

 

"This race is 95 percent about qualifying"

Max Verstappen


#6028 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 06:10

There are tracks which suit the Ferrari, and tracks which suit the Red Bull, but the Merc is in the compromise sweet spot and over a season will offer more consistent outcomes

And that is what will win you championships!

#6029 uraharakisuke

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 07:57

The threat comes next year if Ferrari make a well balanced car as combined with that engine they will be dangerous from the get go.



#6030 ferrarista

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 09:22

And that is what will win you championships!

I would also add Lewis to the equation, not sure they would have won 2017 and 2018 without him.



#6031 kernel

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 12:32

Interesting comment in Mark Hughes' article about Ferrari's PU advantage. It likely has to do with its superior MGU-H...  

 

Last year when Mercedes' lads started to make big fuss about Ferrari's PU I couldn't believe the ignorance behind it. The big secret was revealed. Some high profile engineers don't understand difference between power and energy. The energy released from the battery to drive MGU-K is limited to 2MJ by technical regulations. However, the amount of energy recovered by MGU-H is unlimited. Consequently, if your'e clever enough to produce a nice package of power electronics diverting a certain amount of current to the MGU-K, sparing at the same time energy stored in the battery pack, these 2MJoules shall be drained trough the longer period of time, a longer pull from MGU-K. At the same time MGU-H design should be aimed to control the boost pressure from turbocharger - for this purpose waste gate is a redundant component. That's the detail where engineering art is hidden. When and how much to recover from MGU-H, what mixture to use to make it most efficient. It is obvious that using MGU-H to greater extent influences design of the ICE as well. That's another area which plays a significant role in orchestrating power output of these awesome machines. Pretty intoxicating stuff if you ask me.

 

 

 

 

https://www.motorspo...-baffles-rivals



#6032 Jordan44

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 12:40

Did they really use the phrase "Mercedes' lads"?

Edited by Jordan44, 21 September 2019 - 12:41.


#6033 Whatisvalis

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 12:44

Did they really use the phrase "Mercedes' lads"?

 

I think that's a user comment on a MH article.



#6034 FrontWing

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 13:53

What a lovely wake up call for Merc, they are falling behind everywhere.

#6035 SonGoku

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 13:55

Merc absolutely nowhere, not even on this circuit. This team won't be favourites next year. Lewis closed the gap a bit, but beaten in a track that your car favours, oh my what a disaster.

Edited by SonGoku, 21 September 2019 - 14:03.


#6036 FrontWing

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:02

Lewis keeping Merc in the fight.

#6037 kernel

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:09

I hope Merc's 2020 development efforts are going well, because current performance right now isn't terribly reassuring.

 

Meanwhile Ferrari is getting crucial data for 2020 with their new developments in 2019.

 

Also, the engine is still super important. Ultimately, those 2 tenths Ferrari had in S1 due to their engine power made the difference.


Edited by kernel, 21 September 2019 - 14:11.


#6038 Jordan44

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:10

What a lovely wake up call for Merc, they are falling behind everywhere.


Maybe that's because they've already said they've now switched their focus to 2020.

#6039 kernel

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:11

Maybe that's because they've already said they've now switched their focus to 2020.

 

If it continues like this, this could prove a terrible decision. Ferrari seems like the faster car in both fast and slow tracks. The 2019 championships may tighten up significantly.



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#6040 Jordan44

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:14

If it continues like this, this could prove a terrible decision. Ferrari seems like the faster car in both fast and slow tracks. The 2019 championships may tighten up significantly.

They can have 3 double DNF's and still lead both championships.

There's really nothing to worry about regarding the titles, especially as Hamilton is usually the one right behind Leclerc. Vettel isn't delivering what the car can do.

If we were seeing Ferrari 1-2's I would be more concerned.

Edited by Jordan44, 21 September 2019 - 14:15.


#6041 AnR

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:15

Merc still the car off the year, but Leclerc the driver...



#6042 SonGoku

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:19

That would be a 1-2 Ferrari if anybody else than Lewis would be driving in that Merc. Really shocking to see, I pray they have given up the development of the car to explain this, otherwise...

#6043 Shade

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:21

I have a feeling that Lewis overdrove the car (as usual) and Merc might be more than 2 tenths slower (in Quali).

Bottas was very bad.



#6044 kernel

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:23

So then, what about yesterday's race pace? Was it all a fluke? Or did Mercedes opt, like at many other previous GPs, for a race-biased setup (useless at Singapore)?



#6045 SonGoku

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:28

So then, what about yesterday's race pace? Was it all a fluke? Or did Mercedes opt, like at many other previous GPs, for a race-biased setup (useless at Singapore)?

 


I believe it when I see it, wouldn't be surprised to see Ferrari keeping the lead business like usual tomorrow.

#6046 Marklar

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:28

So then, what about yesterday's race pace? Was it all a fluke? Or did Mercedes opt, like at many other previous GPs, for a race-biased setup (useless at Singapore)?

It might be real, the question is if it helps. 
 

 

If it continues like this, this could prove a terrible decision. Ferrari seems like the faster car in both fast and slow tracks. The 2019 championships may tighten up significantly.

The championship is in the bag, dont kid yourself. Even today Hamilton managed P2 and might even win tomorrow. Plus Singapore has often thrown unexpected results anyway.

2020 is a different matter, but Mercedes stopped developing since July, whether that was the wise decision is a different question.

 

Merc still the car off the year, but Leclerc the driver...

With a bunch of major mistakes? Yeah, no.

Also, you already dumped Max?  :eek:



#6047 Unicast

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:31

I don't really understand Mercedes stopping the development of this year's car.

Rules will be the stable next year and everything which you can learn in 2019 you can carry over & improve in 2020... Why not use the valuable track time (remaining races) to test idea and improve even more and just stop development?


Edited by Unicast, 21 September 2019 - 14:32.


#6048 uraharakisuke

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:32

Slower in qualy on both low and high downforce circuits? We'll see if this continues the rest of the year. I know development has stopped but any leftover updates in the pipeline?

 

Championship looks secure unless Lewis starts DNFing...



#6049 Mercstar

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:32

Ferrari seem to have the best package over one lap now, Merc should be stronger tomorrow, but track position is king around here.

#6050 TomNokoe

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 14:33

My guess is they have again gone too far towards a race setup and totally underestimated Ferrari.