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Mercedes-AMG Technical Thread (W10 EQ Power+)


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#6401 kernel

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 15:40

They should freeze development on this season except for those things that will aid them for next season. There literally is no point spending even a minute on improving the car for this season only. They've already easily won both WDC and WCC, it's done. 2020 is going to be a massive challenge.

 

2020 regs are similar to this year. I'd expect 2020 cars to be natural evolutions of their predecessors. Unless Merc's 2020 car is radically different from 2019, given the lead they have in both championships, they could have used the end of this season to test new parts designed for the 2020 car.



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#6402 Retrofly

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 15:48

I would totally expect the changes being made were either in the pipeline already or benefit next years car in some way.



#6403 kernel

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 16:15

https://www.youtube....player_embedded

 

Formula1.com video on time lost by Mercedes on the 2 main straights in Russia... about 0.45s. Top speed delta is only between 3 and 5kph, suggesting that the vast majority of the time is gained in acceleration, highlighting Ferrari's superior ERS.

 

EDIT: AMuS reporting that Ferrari's 2020 car will be an evolution of its 2019 Singapore-spec car. Again, makes total sense. That car's only weaknesses are slow corners, and its tyre wear, reminiscent of the title winning 2017 Merc. Sounds like it's the winning formula in today's F1.


Edited by kernel, 01 October 2019 - 16:19.


#6404 IceSpeed

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 22:42

Wonder if Ferrari should have held back on the Singapore upgrades until next season. (Ie have them tested and validated but not really run at full beans)

Have they shown their hand too early? I mean will this will give merc enough time to counter?

Merc know Ferrari have a superior engine and have solved their slow speed issues so have their work cut out for them.

Or maybe Ferrari are not running full beans and have enough in reserve.

#6405 IceSpeed

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 22:47

"Certainly in terms of the combustion engine the thermal efficiency gains that you can achieve from year to year we’re speaking about not several percent, we are speaking about something that’s below a percent.

“That’s something which you can physically extract from year on year development, and with mature regulations like we have now, probably even less, so you need to be clever, innovative on all the other bits in the engine, whilst adhering 100% to the regulations.”


100% to the regs? :)

#6406 SonGoku

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 23:12

We will see, but it looks like Merc has to take risks with their engines for the first time in this hybrid era next season. You aren't going to gain eight tenths in the corners anymore.

#6407 Paco

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Posted 01 October 2019 - 23:21

We will see, but it looks like Merc has to take risks with their engines for the first time in this hybrid era next season. You aren't going to gain eight tenths in the corners anymore.


Risks, why... their engine is still miles ahead of Renault and Honda and it’s the hybrid delivery they need work on. I doubt the ice is an issue as compared to a downforce madden car that was atypical for then. They almost got caught out going in the wrong direction. Sure next year things will close between and ferrari tit for tat all season.. pending what goes on with Seb in off season..

#6408 kernel

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Posted 02 October 2019 - 07:19

Risks, why... their engine is still miles ahead of Renault and Honda and it’s the hybrid delivery they need work on. I doubt the ice is an issue as compared to a downforce madden car that was atypical for then. They almost got caught out going in the wrong direction. Sure next year things will close between and ferrari tit for tat all season.. pending what goes on with Seb in off season..

 

Not remotely true. Renault and Honda are very evenly matched with Mercedes in terms of peak power. However, in race mode, Mercedes probably has a slight edge over Renault and Honda.

 

And Ferrari has made massive gains on the combustion side of the ICE with 3D printed steel pistons and HCCI (rumoured). There is wood to chop everywhere for Brixworth who has been extremely complacent since 2017. Safe to say Brackley has carried the team to championships in 2018 and 2019.



#6409 OO7

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Posted 02 October 2019 - 07:26

Apparently HCCI isn't really compatible with F1 combustion designs.



#6410 ToniF1

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 19:13

I finally found a picture

 

Didn’t notice Mercedes tried in Singapore a front heave unit with small carbon disc springs inside, similar to the Red Bull one (RBR has been using Belleville washers for a while). I understand Merc standard one is fully hydraulic.

 

 

https://twitter.com/...863688365658112

 

EFUPSO3-XUAE96p-A-jpg-large.jpg



#6411 beachdrifter

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 01:32

Smaller Merc upgrades coming for Suzuka. Merc engineers talk about a "decent step". So I'm assuming around 2 tenths improvement, as opposed to the big upgrades that brought twice that. 

 

Merc are billed as favorites for Suzuka, let's see if they can live up to it this time. In Singapore, that didn't go so well.

 

Apparently Merc can seal the WCC with a 1-2!


Edited by beachdrifter, 09 October 2019 - 01:35.


#6412 zibby43

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 06:34

New barge board/side pod vane arrangement for Mercedes at Suzuka:
 
Can't link images here anymore (always given "You are not allowed to use that image extension on this community). 
 
Will provide Twitter links (cannot link Twitter here, either).

https://twitter.com/...798438607867905

https://twitter.com/...799232706973696

Edited by zibby43, 09 October 2019 - 07:37.


#6413 Marklar

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 07:04

Can't link images here anymore (always given "Youa re not allowed to use that image extension on this community).

That's a twitter specific issue

You have to change

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGaXZ0DU8AAgbWN?format=jpg&name=large
to

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGaXZ0DU8AAgbWN.jpg

EGaXZ0DU8AAgbWN.jpg

EGaXaV-UEAAhBJM.jpg

EGaYErnU4AAfGbW.jpg

EGaYFXxUYAIPT0G.jpg

Alternatively you can screenshot, there are some tools like greenshot that can even autoupload.

#6414 MJB5990

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 12:59

Merc have struggled to get the tyres working for the opening part of the lap so far this season. Fingers crossed they manage to get on top of it this weekend.

#6415 AustinF1

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 04:36

Tobi Grüner

@tgruener
Mercedes just arrived with a ridiculous exhaust cover to scrutineering. No idea what's that about?!
 
Sorry, can't get the photos to embed...
 
ETA: Fixxxed thanks to Nixxxon!
 
EGfWrvfU8AEE2Kp.jpg
 
EGfWsXFUwAAPmKB.jpg

Edited by AustinF1, 10 October 2019 - 15:58.


#6416 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 05:00


Tobi Grüner
@tgruener
Mercedes just arrived with a ridiculous exhaust cover to scrutineering. No idea what's that about?!

Sorry, can't get the photos to embed...

https://pbs.twimg.co...=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.co...=jpg&name=large


What is that about?!

#6417 AustinF1

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 05:13

What is that about?!

Tobi Grüner
@tgruener
·
23m
Got some infos about that interesting looking pipe in the back of the Mercedes. Apparently it's just a measurement tool they are using to check whether the exhaust is aligned with the center of the car. Second Mercedes just came with a normal exhaust pipe to scrutineering.


#6418 zibby43

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 06:01

New front wing end plate deflector:
 

EGfVHB2U4AAT3jU.jpg

 

More shots of the new side pod vanes and barge boards:

 

EGfXN73UEAE_egX.jpg

 

EGfXNaRVUAA-WVC.jpg


Edited by zibby43, 10 October 2019 - 06:04.


#6419 OO7

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 11:09

uuyrKjm.png

wMSRhlL.png



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#6420 CountDooku

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 12:09

That’s a pretty big upgrade!

#6421 Paco

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 12:21

Why was Toto going on of a small update, visually it seems pretty significantly from what they brought last time out. There was more on those photos then the little yellow hands showed...

#6422 MJB5990

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 16:31

Always better to under promise and over deliver than the other way around.

#6423 femi

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 17:54

Why was Toto going on of a small update, visually it seems pretty significantly from what they brought last time out. There was more on those photos then the little yellow hands showed...

The "small" probably referred to laptime gain.



#6424 w1Y

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 18:36

I imagine there might be some compromise between tyre wear and corner speed for straight line speed.

#6425 masa90

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 19:35

Those sidepods to me show what is wrong with f1 currently. They said that the 2008 had too many winglets. Wtf is that. It is hard to comprehend how many silly lil flaps are there.

 

And they look absolutely horrible.



#6426 Con1

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 19:37

What is that about?!

It's a cannon  :eek:



#6427 ToniF1

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 20:00



#6428 femi

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 20:07

 

Tobi Grüner
@tgruener
·
23m
Got some infos about that interesting looking pipe in the back of the Mercedes. Apparently it's just a measurement tool they are using to check whether the exhaust is aligned with the center of the car. Second Mercedes just came with a normal exhaust pipe to 

Something's wrong. Either the tool or exhaust is off-center. My guess is the monitoring tool like Bernie is bent. He wanted RB and Ferrari to make up future rules, deliberately keeping Merc on the sidelines!



#6429 Marklar

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 20:26

Motorsport Italy gives the lightweight chassis rumour another go: apparently Hamilton is running with it in Suzuka

https://it.motorspor...vo/4555526/amp/

To be fair the Mercedes practice report does confirm that Hamilton is using a different chassis than in Sochi, so who knows.

#6430 SonGoku

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 21:06

I don't believe Motorsport Italy anymore after Hockenheim.

#6431 zibby43

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 22:08

Motorsport Italy gives the lightweight chassis rumour another go: apparently Hamilton is running with it in Suzuka

https://it.motorspor...vo/4555526/amp/

To be fair the Mercedes practice report does confirm that Hamilton is using a different chassis than in Sochi, so who knows.

 

This practice report?  Or a different one?  I can't seem to find a reference. https://www.mercedes...iday-at-suzuka/

 

Thank you for sharing the info.



#6432 femi

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 04:53

There is regulation imposed minimum weight these cars must have I suppose. 



#6433 Marklar

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 06:09

This practice report? Or a different one? I can't seem to find a reference. https://www.mercedes...iday-at-suzuka/

Thank you for sharing the info.

Sochi (and all races until Montreal) Hamilton is listed with Chassis No. 4 https://media.daimle...5kZXg9NQ!!&rs=0

Yesterday he was listed with Chassis No. 6 https://media.daimle...luZGV4PTU!&rs=0

#6434 zibby43

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 06:29

Sochi (and all races until Montreal) Hamilton is listed with Chassis No. 4 https://media.daimle...5kZXg9NQ!!&rs=0

Yesterday he was listed with Chassis No. 6 https://media.daimle...luZGV4PTU!&rs=0

 

Thank you for posting that.  I had never seen that before prior to you sharing it.



#6435 OO7

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 06:57

There is regulation imposed minimum weight these cars must have I suppose. 

Yes, reducing the weight helps with lowering the CoG and having more ballast available to better balance the car.



#6436 Mark123

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 07:07

This lightweight chassis rumour, what would be the point? Maybe to give more scope with balance adjust ballast ect.
I find it odd Mercedes say they ran lighter and with more power yesterday?
Are they being cryptic maybe? With the update they may be able to run more power and be lighter because of chassis

#6437 Marklar

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 07:22

It's for better cooling apparently?

#6438 Unicast

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 07:32

This lightweight chassis rumour, what would be the point? Maybe to give more scope with balance adjust ballast ect.
I find it odd Mercedes say they ran lighter and with more power yesterday?
Are they being cryptic maybe? With the update they may be able to run more power and be lighter because of chassis

 

They wanted to ensure a good starting position in case the qualy on Sunday is cancelled.

They probably wanted it more than the other teams but it's clear that Mercedes enjoys a performance edge over the competition in Suzuka.


Edited by Unicast, 12 October 2019 - 07:33.


#6439 femi

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 08:12

Yes, reducing the weight helps with lowering the CoG and having more ballast available to better balance the car.

The way I see it, this should yield all round performance gain; even faster round both the straight and non-straight bits without improving the power-unit - assuming no overall grip loss. On the straights, less drag(inertia?) for the engine to worry about. They have basically shed drag while maintaining DF and balance.


Edited by femi, 12 October 2019 - 08:13.


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#6440 TomNokoe

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 10:05

It's for better cooling apparently?


Test for Mexico?

#6441 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 11:31

There is regulation imposed minimum weight these cars must have I suppose.

Yes but the less you weigh the more you can alter the ballast and move your weight distribution around? Unless that is regulated too?

#6442 SonGoku

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 16:31

On the new BBC F1 podcast the journalist asked Mercedes engineers why they don't follow Ferrari's concept like the other teams. The Mercedes engineer answered that it is very hard to make it work and they will wait until 2021 with it. The journalist thinks Ferrari gets more and more out of their concept and will dominate next season.

#6443 Marklar

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 16:52

Then again that journalist is Sam Collins, so you might as well throw it into the bin.

Edit: also that's bs anyways. Neither concept will have any relevance going into 2021 lmao.

It's interesting how many people are being mislead by Ferraris current run. Remove the engine from the equation and Mercedes would be comfortably ahead. Ferrari's concept is not as bad anymore as it was, but ultimately Mercedes' is better. The engine makes now the difference in qualifying.

Mercedes shouldnt make the same mistake as Ferrari after 2017 where they tried a new concept although their chassis was the class of the field and only hindered by a weaker engine.

Though of course might be that the tyres are changing enough to force them into doing that (or the inability to find gains on the engine side)

Edited by Marklar, 12 October 2019 - 17:05.


#6444 Hela

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 17:02

Then again that journalist is Sam Collins, so you might as well throw it into the bin.

Edit: also that's bs anyways. Neither concept will have any relevance going into 2021 lmao.

 

 

Maybe he meant 2020



#6445 SonGoku

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 17:23

Then again that journalist is Sam Collins, so you might as well throw it into the bin.

Edit: also that's bs anyways. Neither concept will have any relevance going into 2021 lmao.

It's interesting how many people are being mislead by Ferraris current run. Remove the engine from the equation and Mercedes would be comfortably ahead. Ferrari's concept is not as bad anymore as it was, but ultimately Mercedes' is better. The engine makes now the difference in qualifying.

Mercedes shouldnt make the same mistake as Ferrari after 2017 where they tried a new concept although their chassis was the class of the field and only hindered by a weaker engine.

Though of course might be that the tyres are changing enough to force them into doing that (or the inability to find gains on the engine side)


I am not saying he is right or wrong, it's just interesting to discuss it.

#6446 zibby43

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 18:45

I am not saying he is right or wrong, it's just interesting to discuss it.

 

Ferrari's concept was nowhere on circuits like Shanghai (despite the long straight), Barcelona, Paul Ricard, Silverstone, and Hungary.

 

Post-upgrade, on a track with similar corners like Suzuka, they still look about the same. 

 

So I'm definitely not seeing the "gaining and gaining" thing.  Singapore and Sochi had 90-degree stop and go corners - the same types of corners Ferrari did well with in Canada. 

 

We'll see how the rest of the weekend plays out. 



#6447 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 19:09

Hopefully Mercedes are to wise to change concept without understand the data and the gains...

#6448 uraharakisuke

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 20:41

Any confirmation on how effective the upgrades were or is it still too early? Heard a projection of around 2 tenths?

 

Anyway, I don't want to pessimistically say Ferrari will get pole (I think they will) but I'm annoyed that qualy is on at 2am so to watch it I have to wake up at 2am, go back to bed at 3am and wake up again at 5:30am...Think I'll just skip qualy and assume Leclerc's on pole.



#6449 kernel

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 21:43

I am not saying he is right or wrong, it's just interesting to discuss it.


I listened to the same podcast and it seemed to me like that “journalist” (have to use that term really loosely) made very baseless claims about aero concepts.

As Marklar said, Ferrari has definitely gotten a better handle of their concept as the season evolved, and margins are getting tighter such that Ferrari’s superior engine/modes are making the difference in qualifying and crucial parts of the race (eg., start, SC launch, defending), and it was no doubt helped by the fact that 3 of the past 4 races took place on tracks where Ferrari would have been a strong favourite anyway.

That “journalist” claimed Ferrari would dominate the rest of this season too. Based on what? Load of bollocks and I expected better from BBC.

#6450 beachdrifter

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 00:50

Any confirmation on how effective the upgrades were or is it still too early? 

 

Bottas had this to say: 

 

"We need to remember that it's only practice, but I feel the gains that we've made with the car, which is nice. I can push the car further than before so we need to focus on ourselves. Sunday will still be close in qualifying and the race."

 

 

https://www.gptoday....suzuka-upgrades