Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 12 votes

Mercedes-AMG Technical Thread (W10 EQ Power+)


  • Please log in to reply
6652 replies to this topic

#6551 Unicast

Unicast
  • Member

  • 1,352 posts
  • Joined: April 18

Posted 15 October 2019 - 18:04

It made things easier, but that statement completely disregards the fact that Merc had a race pace advantage of at least 0.5s/lap and the fact that the Ferraris were killing their tires.

 

 

With how much faster Merc was in race trim, and how much kinder they were on the tires (they could've easily made 1-stoppers work; Ferrari had no chance), Ferrari retaining a 1-2 at the start would've made things more difficult, but Mercedes would've still probably won the race.

 

It was not 0.5 Mark Hughes said it was more like 0.3 and only because of the big deg on Ferrari.

I think Ferrari is the clear benchmark in qualy and ties with Merc on race pace... Ferrari does seem to have the concept with the wider scope for performance and this will be worrying Mercedes for next year, when we'll basically see both teams refine their concept even more... I don't expect any convergence since no one will risk change the design completly and basically admitting that the other team got it right, when you do that you already give up 1 year worth of knowledge, which Ferrari is already incorporating in the design of next year's car.

Binotto already stated that they are happy with the current concept for next year as well and I think Merc will try to optimize their high DF package even more next year.



Advertisement

#6552 Unicast

Unicast
  • Member

  • 1,352 posts
  • Joined: April 18

Posted 15 October 2019 - 18:07

Do they only have more power due to less drag - or is there PU more powerful?

 

Most educated estimates I've seen put the Ferrari engine around 20-30Hp over the Merc in qualy and 10Hp in the race.


Edited by Unicast, 15 October 2019 - 18:08.


#6553 beachdrifter

beachdrifter
  • Member

  • 5,242 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 15 October 2019 - 18:37

Most educated estimates I've seen put the Ferrari engine around 20-30Hp over the Merc in qualy and 10Hp in the race.

 

The top teams have put the boost Ferrari have at their disposal at 40 kW (> 50 BHP) in quali - independently of one another. And they sticked with those numbers even when challenged.

 

And they explained the effect that lower drag has on the equation in a very similar way, as well. And those estimates come from teams that can't stand one another.

 

I'll take those over journalist guesses (that change on a weekly basis, same journalist) any day of the week.



#6554 kernel

kernel
  • Member

  • 4,158 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 15 October 2019 - 22:39

So apparently Mercedes (high downforce, better race pace) and Ferrari (low drag, better quali pace) want to keep their respective philosophy for next year.


Yikes. Downforce won’t be as critical next year as tyres will have a wider operation window.

#6555 GrumpyYoungMan

GrumpyYoungMan
  • Member

  • 5,837 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 16 October 2019 - 05:21

Most educated estimates I've seen put the Ferrari engine around 20-30Hp over the Merc in qualy and 10Hp in the race.

But is that with the drag removed? So is that true PU output?

#6556 Kvothe

Kvothe
  • Member

  • 7,318 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 16 October 2019 - 11:43

Yikes. Downforce won’t be as critical next year as tyres will have a wider operation window.


It'll still be critical for maintaining the life of the tyres!

#6557 SonGoku

SonGoku
  • Member

  • 3,819 posts
  • Joined: July 17

Posted 16 October 2019 - 12:11

Merc needs a massive engine upgrade or build a RBR 2011 rocketship chassis.

#6558 MasterOfCoin

MasterOfCoin
  • Member

  • 2,330 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 16 October 2019 - 12:15

Merc needs a massive engine upgrade or build a RBR 2011 rocketship chassis.

In 2011 the other engine manufacturers didn't have the massive speed advantage as this years Ferrari.....  ;)


Edited by MasterOfCoin, 16 October 2019 - 16:57.


#6559 GrumpyYoungMan

GrumpyYoungMan
  • Member

  • 5,837 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 16 October 2019 - 16:46

Do we think Mercedes are still running (slightly) detuned to maintain reliability?

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 16 October 2019 - 16:46.


Advertisement

#6560 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 34,204 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 16 October 2019 - 17:17

Btw Schmidt mentioned in his video blog that the Merc engineers expect to be behind Red Bull & Ferrari in Mexico.

If it's due to cooling/altitude it's an understandable take, otherwise I dont really see why they should be behind Red Bull (in their current form) or in the race behind Ferrari

#6561 SonGoku

SonGoku
  • Member

  • 3,819 posts
  • Joined: July 17

Posted 16 October 2019 - 17:30

Btw Schmidt mentioned in his video blog that the Merc engineers expect to be behind Red Bull & Ferrari in Mexico.

If it's due to cooling/altitude it's an understandable take, otherwise I dont really see why they should be behind Red Bull (in their current form) or in the race behind Ferrari

 


What people don't seem to realise is that Hamilton often repeats in the media what he has been told by his engineers. He made the same comments about Mexico.

#6562 Mercstar

Mercstar
  • Member

  • 2,180 posts
  • Joined: June 15

Posted 16 October 2019 - 17:55


What people don't seem to realise is that Hamilton often repeats in the media what he has been told by his engineers. He made the same comments about Mexico.


I do recall him saying "Mexico will be a nightmare for us", but we shall see.

#6563 ToniF1

ToniF1
  • Member

  • 372 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 16 October 2019 - 18:23

Forecast for now is 25 degrees celsius, they have best high downforce and engine counts less. I just dont see how it will be a disaster like last year with tires. They did won 2015 and 2016...In 2017 Botas was ok, Ham was last with damaged floor/car after the start.


Edited by ToniF1, 16 October 2019 - 18:24.


#6564 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 34,204 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 16 October 2019 - 19:12

Agreed. This is why I dont think that it will be bad. Last year the problem was tyre management after they dropped the rim holes. This year they are the class of the field in tyre management. So that one will be no issue.

Mexico has Monaco levels of downforce, so that is in their favour too.

The significance of the engine is up in the air though, it reduces the significance of the ICE and of a low drag package, but we dont know from where Ferrari's advantage on the engine side is from.

Also the problem in Mexico is that due to the thin air slipstream is less effective, so overtaking probably even harder than it already is.



#6565 SCUDmissile

SCUDmissile
  • Member

  • 7,421 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 16 October 2019 - 20:54


Then it's hoping for bad starts galore next year.


Or they're betting on Ferrari mistakes, which is a pretty good bet.

It won them the 2018 title.

#6566 beachdrifter

beachdrifter
  • Member

  • 5,242 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 21 October 2019 - 23:17

Lewis' wishlist for 2020

 

"We've got time for next year. I think it's not been a great year for us in terms of the great issue, in terms of our engine development," he said.

 

"I think it's been a really hard time for the guys, they've been working as hard as ever but it's just not been as successful in that department, as I say.

 

"Plus it's quite draggy but we've had great reliability and hopefully that remains the same and that's still something to be really proud of, of course.

 

"We have, obviously, still won the constructors' championship but we'll push to try and maybe reduce the drag a little bit but also increase power for next year.

 

"So they're fully onto it and I have all the confidence in the world that we'll be able to make some sort of step into the next season."

 

 

https://www.autospor...power-less-drag



#6567 TomNokoe

TomNokoe
  • Member

  • 21,219 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 21 October 2019 - 23:32

I think they'll be on pole in Mexico. Aren't actual downforce levels lower than Monza? Where they were pretty quick!

#6568 beachdrifter

beachdrifter
  • Member

  • 5,242 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 22 October 2019 - 00:24

I think they'll be on pole in Mexico. Aren't actual downforce levels lower than Monza? Where they were pretty quick!

 

Ferrari have scored every pole since the summer break, 5 in a row, the longest streak of the season. They're bound to mess up one day. Could be anywhere, but impossible to predict.

 

From what I've seen so far, they're favorites for Mexico, too.



#6569 SonGoku

SonGoku
  • Member

  • 3,819 posts
  • Joined: July 17

Posted 22 October 2019 - 00:46

Lewis' wishlist for 2020


https://www.autospor...power-less-drag


Basically what I am saying in this thread the whole year.

#6570 beachdrifter

beachdrifter
  • Member

  • 5,242 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 22 October 2019 - 01:01

The whole engine topic has been really interesting this year.

 

Just when everyone started to think that F1 is no longer an "engine formula", Ferrari emerged so dominant in that area, and now we're back at the point where - no matter where you look, Renault, Red Bull, Mercedes - they all say that the key to 2020 is understanding/somehow countering whatever Ferrari is doing on the engine front. They all understand the implications of what we're seeing now.


Edited by beachdrifter, 22 October 2019 - 01:03.


#6571 ArrowsLivery

ArrowsLivery
  • Member

  • 3,193 posts
  • Joined: March 17

Posted 22 October 2019 - 01:48

Do we think Mercedes are still running (slightly) detuned to maintain reliability?


What do you mean “still”?

#6572 LightningMcQueen

LightningMcQueen
  • Member

  • 146 posts
  • Joined: February 14

Posted 22 October 2019 - 08:23

Forecast for now is 25 degrees celsius, they have best high downforce and engine counts less. I just dont see how it will be a disaster like last year with tires. They did won 2015 and 2016...In 2017 Botas was ok, Ham was last with damaged floor/car after the start.


The engine point will be really interesting, if Ferrari power advantage is predominantly electrical their margin will increase.. at least we will know, unless Ferrari turn down the wick to disguise

#6573 EndlessMotion

EndlessMotion
  • Member

  • 2,031 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 25 October 2019 - 19:56

Should be expected by now, but looks like the usual struggle for Mercedes here in Mexico. They've just never been any good around here and it's not just the altitude/engine thing alone, with the Ferrari and Red Bull looking so much better through the middle and final sector. Possibly seeing more of Mercs issues switching the tyres on as quickly as rivals for their qualifying runs too. Going to be a long weekend for the team.



#6574 SonGoku

SonGoku
  • Member

  • 3,819 posts
  • Joined: July 17

Posted 25 October 2019 - 20:00

As I already said, Hamilton tells the media what his informed engineers tell him.

You read in the media "Hamilton says" but it is "Merc engineers expect". He looks to be spot on again.

#6575 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 4,591 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 25 October 2019 - 20:06

The car looks nowhere.

#6576 zibby43

zibby43
  • Member

  • 109 posts
  • Joined: May 19

Posted 25 October 2019 - 20:07

Yeah, Merc looks nowhere. 



#6577 EndlessMotion

EndlessMotion
  • Member

  • 2,031 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 25 October 2019 - 20:24

Curious how things ebb and flow throughout at season. Mercedes looking a bit lost like Ferrari were early in the season. Quick one week and the next just not a threat at all. That monster back straight in Austin is ruining my hopes and visions for bouncing back next time out too. But then they were quickest around Suzuka which shares some characteristics with Austin.

 

Either way, Mexico is my least favourite weekend on the calendar these days. Hope Lewis doesn't take the title here like he has in previous years, off the podium. Just never feels right.



#6578 SonGoku

SonGoku
  • Member

  • 3,819 posts
  • Joined: July 17

Posted 25 October 2019 - 20:55

Curious how things ebb and flow throughout at season. Mercedes looking a bit lost like Ferrari were early in the season. Quick one week and the next just not a threat at all. That monster back straight in Austin is ruining my hopes and visions for bouncing back next time out too. But then they were quickest around Suzuka which shares some characteristics with Austin.

 

Either way, Mexico is my least favourite weekend on the calendar these days. Hope Lewis doesn't take the title here like he has in previous years, off the podium. Just never feels right.

 


If Bottas finishes the race I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

#6579 LightningMcQueen

LightningMcQueen
  • Member

  • 146 posts
  • Joined: February 14

Posted 25 October 2019 - 21:47

Yeah, Merc looks nowhere.


Over 1 lap.. race pace not bad at all

Advertisement

#6580 zibby43

zibby43
  • Member

  • 109 posts
  • Joined: May 19

Posted 25 October 2019 - 21:52

Over 1 lap.. race pace not bad at all

 

It's def. not bad, but their margin is much smaller than usual and the tire deg isn't great.



#6581 ToniF1

ToniF1
  • Member

  • 372 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 26 October 2019 - 06:05

 

Either way, Mexico is my least favourite weekend on the calendar these days. Hope Lewis doesn't take the title here like he has in previous years, off the podium. Just never feels right.

 

Yeah, but he is stealing the show for the last two years, nobody is looking at podium :p

 

#donuts



#6582 GoldenColt

GoldenColt
  • Member

  • 5,480 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted 26 October 2019 - 07:24

Mercedes are struggling around here because

 

- everyone is running maximum downforce which - in combination with the thin air - nullifies whatever edge they have in this department

- they have to open up the car more than others for cooling, which takes away yet another chunk of downforce

- their turbo chargers are small which results in a loss of performance and other teams are able to extract more power out of their MGU-K than the Mercedes PU

 

They don't seem to struggle as much with tyres as last season and their gap to the other two teams ahead is not dramatic over a race-distance, but due to the topspeed-deficit they won't be able to get past the Ferraris (and potentially Verstappen).

 

In other words: another weekend of damage-limitation.

 

Source: https://www.auto-mot...alyse-training/



#6583 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 34,204 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 26 October 2019 - 07:28

Good thing is that the tyres are all over the place. That increases the chances of somebody lucking into having a wastly better strategy.

Edited by Marklar, 26 October 2019 - 07:29.


#6584 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 4,591 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 26 October 2019 - 07:28

I want Lewis to wrap up the title asap in the hope it then allows merc to use the rest of this season to try a few things out and not worry about reliability.

#6585 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 4,591 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 26 October 2019 - 07:30

Good thing is thst the tyres are all over the place. That increases the chances of somebody having a wastly better strategy.


True and in mercs case they can probably be aggresive with strategy but it would need to be done with both drivers considering they are the only 2 in the wdc fight.

but at current standings its difficult to see bottas winning every race so its pretty much a wrap anyway

#6586 Hela

Hela
  • Member

  • 590 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 26 October 2019 - 17:42

On Sky F1 in FP3, heard Ted Kravitz mention that he spoke with Toto and he alluded to the fact that Toto said they now know what Ferrari is doing with the engine and it is down to them to implement likewise



#6587 beachdrifter

beachdrifter
  • Member

  • 5,242 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 27 October 2019 - 01:03

...and another Ferrari 1-2, 6th straight pole.



#6588 beachdrifter

beachdrifter
  • Member

  • 5,242 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 27 October 2019 - 01:09

On Sky F1 in FP3, heard Ted Kravitz mention that he spoke with Toto and he alluded to the fact that Toto said they now know what Ferrari is doing with the engine and it is down to them to implement likewise

 

I thought he alluded to that in early September, but apparently that was a misinterpretation. Unless he comes out and flat out says it and/or the team shows they can duplicate it, I won't get my hopes up in this regard. 

 

Horner again confirmed the 50 bhp advantage this weekend. 



#6589 GrumpyYoungMan

GrumpyYoungMan
  • Member

  • 5,837 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 27 October 2019 - 07:33

On Sky F1 in FP3, heard Ted Kravitz mention that he spoke with Toto and he alluded to the fact that Toto said they now know what Ferrari is doing with the engine and it is down to them to implement likewise

And maybe they will in 2020? Or maybe they will once they have the championships wrapped up ...

#6590 kernel

kernel
  • Member

  • 4,158 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 27 October 2019 - 20:39

Watching the race now, is it possible that Merc is running more rake this weekend?

#6591 rog

rog
  • Member

  • 1,232 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 27 October 2019 - 20:55

Hamiltons car has been damaged from the collision, I wonder how much laptime he lost because of this.



#6592 RedBaron966

RedBaron966
  • New Member

  • 27 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 27 October 2019 - 20:56

This race just proves my theory that Merc engine has power in reserve which they show occasionally. Despite Merc being the more draggy car and the Ferrari being in the higher engine mode was not making any inroads on the Merc down the massive straight. 



#6593 beachdrifter

beachdrifter
  • Member

  • 5,242 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 27 October 2019 - 21:02

This race just proves my theory that Merc engine has power in reserve which they show occasionally. Despite Merc being the more draggy car and the Ferrari being in the higher engine mode was not making any inroads on the Merc down the massive straight. 

 

No, it does not. The difference in power in the race on this track is negligible, and Lewis simply undercut Vettel strategy-wise (as they should have done many times before). Overtaking isn't really possible here among the top cars. Bottas also drove a Mercedes, and he couldn't do anything about the car in front of him, either. Or Leclerc.



#6594 piszkosfred

piszkosfred
  • Member

  • 319 posts
  • Joined: November 06

Posted 27 October 2019 - 21:05

And the undercut worked. It shows what could have been in Suzuka and Singapore.



#6595 beachdrifter

beachdrifter
  • Member

  • 5,242 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 27 October 2019 - 21:06

And the undercut worked. It shows what could have been in Suzuka and Singapore.

 

I was really scared they'd try the "go longer" nonsense again.



#6596 KeithD68

KeithD68
  • Member

  • 140 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 27 October 2019 - 21:08

I'd be surprised if the teams don't know - in principle - what Ferrari are doing to get the power advantage; perhaps it's that it's not practical to incorporate it into this seasons car



#6597 zibby43

zibby43
  • Member

  • 109 posts
  • Joined: May 19

Posted 27 October 2019 - 21:08

EH6ekaxX4AMyOCq.jpg



#6598 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 7,525 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 October 2019 - 21:08

No, it does not. The difference in power in the race on this track is negligible, and Lewis simply undercut Vettel strategy-wise (as they should have done many times before). Overtaking isn't really possible here among the top cars. Bottas also drove a Mercedes, and he couldn't do anything about the car in front of him, either. Or Leclerc.



Bottas was not gaining anything against Vettel despite the DRS.

#6599 RedBaron966

RedBaron966
  • New Member

  • 27 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 27 October 2019 - 21:10

No, it does not. The difference in power in the race on this track is negligible, and Lewis simply undercut Vettel strategy-wise (as they should have done many times before). Overtaking isn't really possible here among the top cars. Bottas also drove a Mercedes, and he couldn't do anything about the car in front of him, either. Or Leclerc.

It does not to you but it does to me. I was simply glued to the live stream and I was looking at the acceleration performance out of the corners and down the back straight. Unlike other races where Ferrari was eating the Merc for breakfast it wasnt the case here. Plus every race you dont hear the team giving him maximum engine modes. This race we did. 



Advertisement

#6600 Retrofly

Retrofly
  • Member

  • 3,624 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 27 October 2019 - 21:12

Track position is king, we've seen it race after race, pit early and get the undercut, job done. Merc especially cannot follow cars, here Ham would have nowhere behind other cars, brakes were overheating on both cars,