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Mercedes-AMG Technical Thread (W10 EQ Power+)


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#1251 Astandahl

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Posted 24 February 2019 - 18:07

The way I was told I assume the wing change alone is expected to bring them within a tenth of Ferrari, and then I assume there will be added aero bits as well.

I know people are a bit pessimistic in this thread, but once Ferrari fixed their floor/diffuser issue after Australia last year we saw one of the biggest upturns in pace we've ever seen between two GP's. It's possible Merc could see a similar thing this season

Don't overstimate Ferrari improvement. It's totally true that the new floor improved the car balance and general performance but Mercedes had huge tyres issues in quali. This is why the picture was completely different from Australia.


Edited by Astandahl, 24 February 2019 - 18:07.


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#1252 Shade

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Posted 24 February 2019 - 18:15

Im amazed how quiet the ferrari camp are. I reckon theyve hit the jackpot

To be honest I don't care about opinions in these forums. The only thing giving me hope for this year was Vettel's interview after Day 1 of testing. Nothing else matters to me.

 

off-topic: If Lewis wins 19 out of 21 races this season he surpasses MSC's 91 win record :p 



#1253 w1Y

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Posted 24 February 2019 - 18:39

To be honest I don't care about opinions in these forums. The only thing giving me hope for this year was Vettel's interview after Day 1 of testing. Nothing else matters to me.

off-topic: If Lewis wins 19 out of 21 races this season he surpasses MSC's 91 win record :p


If lewis wins 19 races the car will be so dominant he will match schumachers 7 titles before the change in regs in 2021

But i think that is dream world

#1254 Whatisvalis

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Posted 24 February 2019 - 18:46

If lewis wins 19 races the car will be so dominant he will match schumachers 7 titles before the change in regs in 2021

But i think that is dream world

 

Maybe if he was driving the Ferrari.



#1255 EndlessMotion

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Posted 24 February 2019 - 18:47

Loving all the new bits of news here since the end of the first test. Sounds like some juicy rumours, both good and bad are doing the rounds at the moment. Sifting through the bullshit from the truth during testing is almost a complete waste of time but it's fun admittedly.

 

It's funny, after the car launches this thread didn't have nearly as many posts as the Ferrari thread. Since then and Ferrari looked to have a good start with Mercedes harder to read and not showing as much promise right off the bat the SF90 thread has settled down nicely and the page count here as sky rocketed :lol:

 

I'd forgotten all about the rumoured rear wheel steering Mercedes were supposed to have tested last year. Seems it got lost during the climax of the season. Would be very interesting if there was any truth to it but again it has to go into the pile of rumours for now.

 

All we know is the drivers and team don't sound too rattled at the moment and that Mercedes are the best in the business these days for development. The second test can't come soon enough. Hopefully we see this new front wing at some stage during the coming week. Would be slightly disappointing to not have any new bits on the car until Melbourne and get some valuable test days with a revised packaged from week one.



#1256 robefc

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Posted 24 February 2019 - 19:00

The way I was told I assume the wing change alone is expected to bring them within a tenth of Ferrari, and then I assume there will be added aero bits as well.
I know people are a bit pessimistic in this thread, but once Ferrari fixed their floor/diffuser issue after Australia last year we saw one of the biggest upturns in pace we've ever seen between two GP's. It's possible Merc could see a similar thing this season


Who’s the one doing the telling?

#1257 Clatter

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Posted 24 February 2019 - 20:02

Williams gets slagged hard for barely making the 1st week of testing, now we hearing Mercedes perhaps came with an incomplete 2019 spec car and no one batts an eyelash. I for one think it’s fine but would have been nice if other teams other then Renault were significantly supportive of them and admitted they weren’t 100% ready as well.. showing hard it is. I bet most of the grid weren’t fully ready, barring RB and Ferrari and apparently Honda with 4 full pus dropped off at RB.

 


Well lets compare where Williams have been the last few years compared to Merc. There is a big difference between not being 100% ready (No team is at this stage of the season, and won't be even after the second test), and not being able to take the car to the circuit.

#1258 OO7

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 09:33



#1259 beachdrifter

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 11:21

Changing the front wing concept?

https://www.autospor...uld-take-months

Edited by beachdrifter, 25 February 2019 - 11:29.


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#1260 FrontWing

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 11:32

Changing the front wing concept?
https://www.autospor...uld-take-months

Impressive stuff from Ferrari, especially their work around the intake above the engine. The PU and chassis departments should give themselves a pat on the back because over the last few seasons they've caught and now left Merc scratching their heads.

#1261 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 11:33

Changing the front wing concept?

https://www.autospor...uld-take-months

Smoke & Mirrors.



#1262 kernel

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 11:33

Changing the front wing concept?

https://www.autospor...uld-take-months

 

Wolff didn't actually say they would change their concept in the article, though.

 

As for Jordan44's rumour, it seems odd to me that Mercedes seems to have too much front downforce when the car has been described as understeery on track.



#1263 Mosrite

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 11:41

I don't buy it either. Not everyone wants to see Mercedes dethrones but it generally does no good for a sport when it is know that one team dominates and there is no competition. So do you think Liberty and the Media will report, Mercedes still the fastest, nothing to see here? No, every race they are saying Ferrari is faster, or that Bottas is upset and needs to be given a win, they create some kind of interest, as it's their job.
 

Mercedes got this down, no need to worry, especially since Hamilton's not worried and relaxed. Mercedes can lose the first hour races even, fix their car up and be leading by over 40 points by the summer break. Of course, I don't have any laptimes to prove anything, but again, I think people will be surprised at how much doubt there is around Mercedes, but it's less pressure on them. With all this talk, Ferrari have to win the 1st race, right? 



#1264 peroa

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 13:09

Wolff didn't actually say they would change their concept in the article, though.

 

As for Jordan44's rumour, it seems odd to me that Mercedes seems to have too much front downforce when the car has been described as understeery on track.

Yep, that would be a pretty luxurious problem to have, too much downforce.



#1265 kernel

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 13:13

Yep, that would be a pretty luxurious problem to have, too much downforce.

 

Too much front downforce. The front wing generates loads of downforce but only a fraction of that air flow cleanly makes it all the way to the back of the car resulting in lower rear downforce.



#1266 Kvothe

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 13:45

Wolff didn't actually say they would change their concept in the article, though.

As for Jordan44's rumour, it seems odd to me that Mercedes seems to have too much front downforce when the car has been described as understeery on track.


I don't think it that's odd. According to my armchair physics degree, If there's an imbalance caused by too much front downforce, then you'd naturally compensate by trying to set the car up to have lots of understeer to counter what would be a very pointy car. That however is going to be an imperfect fix, simply due to the inbalance of downforce, especially if there are flow issues at the rear. In fact this might make a car more snappy and perhaps put the balance on the knife edge which is what has been reported. How likely that this is right? Not likely, but everybody else seems to well qualified enough to offer an opinion, and at least mine comes with a disclaimer

#1267 TomNokoe

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 14:28

Smoke & Mirrors


100%

#1268 beachdrifter

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 14:33

Wolff didn't actually say they would change their concept in the article, though.


As quoted before (Toto), they want to see how they're doing with the new aero package first.

My personal guess is that even if that underwhelms, they'll still try everything to fix the current car before taking the plunge on a redesign, and we wouldn't know about that for months.

The article talks about "what if" they have to do it.

#1269 beachdrifter

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 15:15

More on the different front wing concepts:

https://www.auto-mot...-trick-outwash/

Fascinating stuff.

Edited by beachdrifter, 25 February 2019 - 15:18.


#1270 Retrofly

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 15:18

Auf English?



#1271 beachdrifter

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 15:31

Auf English?



This stuff is impossible to translate for me. But the important thing is that there are essentially 2 approaches, and the jury is still out on which one is going to turn out to be the better one.

I guess it's such a big topic at this point because Ferrari and Sauber have impressed early, and things haven't gone according to plan at Merc.

Sauber (who have the most flexible solution) never even considered another approach and thought that the wings presented by Merc and Red Bull (at the presentation of those cars) were fake as they look like evolutions of last season's wings.

Basically you have Sauber on one end of the spectrum (Ferrari comes closest), and Merc on the other (Red Bull comes closest).

Edited by beachdrifter, 25 February 2019 - 15:36.


#1272 Pimpwerx

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 16:24

I'm pretty relaxed. I think Red Bull going on the same direction, counter to STR, gives me confidence. I think there's gotta be some advantage to having more downforce available. Even if it's only seen in race trim, I think it can work. We'll see.

#1273 tokengator82

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 16:59

I'm pretty relaxed. I think Red Bull going on the same direction, counter to STR, gives me confidence. I think there's gotta be some advantage to having more downforce available. Even if it's only seen in race trim, I think it can work. We'll see.

you're doing it wrong...we are supposed to be moping. 

 

tenor.gif



#1274 beachdrifter

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 17:07

I'm pretty relaxed. I think Red Bull going on the same direction, counter to STR, gives me confidence. I think there's gotta be some advantage to having more downforce available. Even if it's only seen in race trim, I think it can work. We'll see.


While this is probably a gross oversimplification, it appears that the Merc/Red Bull direction is more complicated (see: balance problems), yet may offer more longterm potential if they can manage it.

The Sauber/Ferrari approach seems simpler, so they're fast right away, but may not have as much ultimate long-term development potential. That's just speculation on my part though (in conjunction with Red Bull's statements).

The reason Merc is at the center of this is because they would have the most work to do to change their approach. If it was as easy for them as it supposedly is for Red Bull, there'd be nothing to talk about.


Edited by beachdrifter, 25 February 2019 - 17:51.


#1275 andrewf1

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 17:26

This stuff is impossible to translate for me. But the important thing is that there are essentially 2 approaches, and the jury is still out on which one is going to turn out to be the better one.

I guess it's such a big topic at this point because Ferrari and Sauber have impressed early, and things haven't gone according to plan at Merc.

Sauber (who have the most flexible solution) never even considered another approach and thought that the wings presented by Merc and Red Bull (at the presentation of those cars) were fake as they look like evolutions of last season's wings.

Basically you have Sauber on one end of the spectrum (Ferrari comes closest), and Merc on the other (Red Bull comes closest).

 

One important bit to add from the article is the fact that Mercedes' front wing version produces the most downforce, because the outer wing elements are at a steeper angle.

The downside is the turbulent air which it sends to the back, between the wheels and the nose, which they have to get back under control. That's why you see more complex bargeboards and turning vanes in front of the sidepods on the Mercedes, Red Bull and Renault.

 

Ferrari's and Sauber's front wing on the other hand produces less downforce but generates a cleaner flow towards the back, at least according to either AMuS or the CFD eyes of Andy Green (from Racing Point Force India or whatever they're called these days).

 

 

Die Flügel von Mercedes und Red Bull produzieren eindeutig mehr Abtrieb. Die Flaps stehen außen an den Endplatten deutlich steiler im Wind. Der Nachteil dabei: Die schlechte Luft wird zum Teil innerhalb der Vorderräder vorbeigeführt.
Deshalb ist die Anordnung der Leitbleche zwischen Vorderrädern und Seitenkästen beim Mercedes, Red Bull und Renault auch komplizierter als bei den anderen Autos. Hier ist mehr Arbeit nötig, die Strömung in geordnete Bahnen zu lenken. 

 

So that might tie in to the statements that they're generating too much on the front and too little on the back, or too unpredictably. Which might explain the diva behaviour of the car again.

 

It's all about the compromise and balance. But I'm pretty sure the Merc guys will get this right.



#1276 beachdrifter

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 18:00

Interesting to know: Red Bull improved their balance (on the third day of testing) with a new rear wing that offers more downforce, giving the drivers more confidence and improving tyre wear...



#1277 beachdrifter

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 18:26

Another key aspect in the development race: Ferrari has two satellite teams (Alfa, Haas) that they work with very closely these days (they have regular meetings together now, exchange employees etc), Red Bull has Toro Rosso, but Mercedes is on its own, with Williams and RP doing their own thing: 

 

https://www.autobild...s-10929053.html



#1278 tokengator82

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 18:27

Another key aspect in the development race: Ferrari has two satellite teams (Alfa, Haas) that they work with very closely these days (they have regular meetings together now, exchange employees etc), Red Bull has Toro Rosso, but Mercedes is on its own, with Williams and RP doing their own thing: 

 

https://www.autobild...s-10929053.html

 

that might change soon 



#1279 kernel

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 18:31

Another key aspect in the development race: Ferrari has two satellite teams (Alfa, Haas) that they work with very closely these days (they have regular meetings together now, exchange employees etc), Red Bull has Toro Rosso, but Mercedes is on its own, with Williams and RP doing their own thing: 

 

https://www.autobild...s-10929053.html

 

 

I thought they had closed that loophole about information/employee sharing across teams?



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#1280 as65p

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 19:13

I thought they had closed that loophole about information/employee sharing across teams?

How do you imagine that to be policed? Now way anyone can prevent information sharing between teams if those teams are willing to do it.



#1281 Jordan44

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 19:29

All eyes on the front wing tomorrow. If it's immediately different, I guess what I was told is accurate.

#1282 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 19:30

Expecting a rampant Merc this week.

#1283 ferrarista

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 19:44

Expecting a rampant Merc this week.

no, better a low key test and then boom, pole in Aus by half a sec.

#1284 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 19:56

no, better a low key test and then boom, pole in Aus by half a sec.

I meant with the upgrades, sorry.

#1285 kernel

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 20:04

How do you imagine that to be policed? Now way anyone can prevent information sharing between teams if those teams are willing to do it.

 

You could say that about anything done at HQ, technically? I am sure the FIA has procedures to requests internal communications within teams if they have suspicions. Also teams know enough about each other to whistleblow when appropriate.



#1286 nemanja

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 21:04

https://www.f1analis...t-y-si-los.html


Edited by nemanja, 25 February 2019 - 21:05.


#1287 CountDooku

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 21:04

I meant with the upgrades, sorry.


I expect a 1:17 on C2 followed by 13 laps at least.

#1288 w1Y

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 21:40

All eyes on the front wing tomorrow. If it's immediately different, I guess what I was told is accurate.

I reckon they will come out initially with the same car just to get a base reading, especially if track and weather conditions are slightly different.

plus all teams will still be sandbagging except maybe for 1 or 2 runs later in the week.

The key is to watch how the car behaves.... good thing there is no coverage

Edited by w1Y, 25 February 2019 - 21:42.


#1289 EndlessMotion

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Posted 25 February 2019 - 23:18

It would have made more sense to bring the camera crews out for the second test rather than the first with the cars closer to their Melbourne packages and doing more than baseline tests with launch specs but there you go. At least we got to see the cars in action at all this year for a change.

 

If there is a new wing coming this test it's more likely to make an appearance on the second or third day knowing how Mercedes like to go about their business. Either way expect another fairly low key day tomorrow with lap times chilling way down the order. If they are going to turn the wick up at all it'll be the final couple of days and at best pushing through certain sectors rather than over an entire lap I'd bet.



#1290 Nathan

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 03:37

Too much front downforce. The front wing generates loads of downforce but only a fraction of that air flow cleanly makes it all the way to the back of the car resulting in lower rear downforce.

 

If the front had too much downforce the front wing wouldn't be as large as it is.  Mercedes isn't going to produce excessive drag and go into a design knowing it has a significant imbalance...



#1291 teejay

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 04:49

Hold hands with me as I fire up the testing week two swing-o-meter, powered by Petronas and AMG.



#1292 skid solo

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 06:24

Seems to me Mercedes has engineered themselves into a concept that isn't well suited to these regulations. Whereas Ferrari and the rest of the grid are using rake to increase the angle of attack which generates downforce across the complete surface area of the car, Mercedes are far more reliant on the front wing. The upsides of Mercedes concept is now being negated by Ferrari's trick rear suspension which is lowering the rear of the car on the straights, bringing the angle of attack down to Mercedes levels at high speed and popping back up as they brake for corners. It's looking a bit worrying for Mercedes. I hope I am wrong...



#1293 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 06:33

Seems to me Mercedes has engineered themselves into a concept that isn't well suited to these regulations. Whereas Ferrari and the rest of the grid are using rake to increase the angle of attack which generates downforce across the complete surface area of the car, Mercedes are far more reliant on the front wing. The upsides of Mercedes concept is now being negated by Ferrari's trick rear suspension which is lowering the rear of the car on the straights, bringing the angle of attack down to Mercedes levels at high speed and popping back up as they brake for corners. It's looking a bit worrying for Mercedes. I hope I am wrong...

And all the talk when these new regulations came to light was how they favoured Mercedes funny how the agenda change... we are all puppets of the MSM.

#1294 Huffer

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 07:12

If the front had too much downforce the front wing wouldn't be as large as it is.  Mercedes isn't going to produce excessive drag and go into a design knowing it has a significant imbalance...

 

I think the argument is that the wing is providing the down force that is expected, but it doesn't provide a clean airflow to the rear of the car, resulting in the air that is fed to the rear of the car being too turbulent to energise the diffuser.


Edited by Huffer, 26 February 2019 - 08:19.


#1295 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 07:14

I think the argument is that the wing is providing the down force that is expected, but it doesn't provide a clean airflow to the rear of the car, resulting in lost down force at the rear as air being fed to the rear of the car is too turbulent to energise the diffuser.

That makes sense - but you’ll have thought that would have been picked up in the simulator - or design stages - so I don’t buy it.

#1296 KiloWatt

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 08:09

That makes sense - but you’ll have thought that would have been picked up in the simulator - or design stages - so I don’t buy it.

 

Yes.  Unless something went wrong - which appears to have happened.  The world isn't deterministic, after all.  Simulation isn't an exact science and R&D, by nature, isn't either.  In the course of history, many many mistakes have not been picked up simulations (FYI, talking from experience here).



#1297 Jordan44

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 08:12

If the front had too much downforce the front wing wouldn't be as large as it is.  Mercedes isn't going to produce excessive drag and go into a design knowing it has a significant imbalance...


Well that's the thing they probably didn't know. The front wing design is clearly made to produce more downforce than the Ferrari's, so if I had to guess the car doesn't produce as much rear downforce as they expected

#1298 kernel

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 08:19

Any pic from testing?

 

 

 

08:18 Bit of blistering spotted on the tyres as Hamilton returns to his box. It's all quiet out there now for the first time since the start of the session.

 

7 laps on the C5 tyre... hopefully it's due to a cold track, as opposed to the W10 post-"fix" chewing through its rubber.



#1299 hamalo

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 08:22

Any pic from testing?

 

 

7 laps on the C5 tyre... hopefully it's due to a cold track, as opposed to the W10 post-"fix" chewing through its rubber.

 

Surely it is from the weather, that's also why they run the softest compount...to get temperature into it.

Have read last weak about blisters as well on other cars in the first hours.


Edited by hamalo, 26 February 2019 - 08:22.


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#1300 w1Y

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 08:23

Any pic from testing?


7 laps on the C5 tyre... hopefully it's due to a cold track, as opposed to the W10 post-"fix" chewing through its rubber.


C5 is the softest tyre and its on a cold track. Wouldnt read into anything