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Mercedes-AMG Technical Thread (W10 EQ Power+)


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#3751 beachdrifter

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 11:41

Great start, but the Bahrain result makes it look a bit better than it should be, that should have been a Ferrari 1-2 and then the world looks a little bit different after 3 races. Still, you have to finish to win.

 

Very interesting to see Bahrain vs. China (Ferrari vs. Merc track), the gap in both quali and race pace (Leclerc vs. Lewis and Lewis vs. Vettel) being a mirror image just with reversed roles. 

 

Merc did a fantastic job so far, not just maximizing points but bringing updates to every race, especially what they brought to Bahrain testing and now this race. I wonder if we'll hear more about that. They have successfully closed the gap by the looks of it, while Ferrari has left (had to leave) their car largely unchanged since testing. 


Edited by beachdrifter, 14 April 2019 - 11:42.


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#3752 beachdrifter

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 11:59

This aged well  :drunk:

 

It was as true then as it is now. What we saw in Melbourne (track and circumstances) was not representative for the gap between Ferrari and Merc, as confirmed with Bahrain and China. It's obviously very close now, with Mercedes pushing forward development-wise at every race and Ferrari (at least according to the Ferrari thread) still with pretty much the same car from 1.5 months ago.

 

Merc clearly won the first round of the development race, and it's as close now as I'd hoped car-wise. Couldn't be any happier, personally. What about you?



#3753 Synkro89

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 12:01

It was as true then as it is now. What we saw in Melbourne (track and circumstances) was not representative for the gap between Ferrari and Merc, as confirmed with Bahrain and China. It's obviously very close now, with Mercedes pushing forward development-wise at every race and Ferrari (at least according to the Ferrari thread) still with pretty much the same car from 1.5 months ago.

 

Merc clearly won the first round of the development race, and it's as close now as I'd hoped car-wise. Couldn't be any happier, personally. What about you?

:rotfl:



#3754 SonGoku

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 12:03

Just watched Ted Kravitz notebook.

 

Wolff told him he wouldn't believe 3x 1-2 after how winter testing went in Barcelona.

 

Kravitz also said it's really ''circuit-dependant'' what decides if Mercedes or Ferrari is stronger.



#3755 Paco

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 12:56

I do not know what to make of it.. seems more Ferrari making a mess of things and could have a technical issue (control electrics as they put it, cough cough traction control) that is limiting their performance.  Toto did say it well post race as well.. it's not about Horsepower, its about balancing traction and downforce..  Ferrari just getting it wrong...

 

That said, it does appear that MGP front wing is actually panning out to the be best way around and the limits of the inwash as described by the secret team engineer when compared the 2 is very much bang on.



#3756 popolonx

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 13:07

If somebody has traction control, it is clearly mercedes....



#3757 tokengator82

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 14:13

For a casual fan who's watching just a few races per season and looks only at the results yeah Merc won 3 1-2's, but in reality Ferrari was faster in Bahrain and you can't deny that. You're right that we dont know what will happen in Baku but there have been some swings till now so I'll not be surprised if Ferrari is again faster there. And if they can translate that into a win is another discusion.

one Ferrari was faster. One.

#3758 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 15:01

If somebody has traction control, it is clearly mercedes....

Any evidence to support that?

If your car has good mechanical and aerodynamic grip then you are kinder to your tyres? No?

#3759 Paco

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 15:19

If somebody has traction control, it is clearly mercedes....

 

or Ferrari had to limit it in China a result of Bahrain.. perhaps a oscillation issue (predicable vibration and it's frequency causing an issue)..  The secret aero engineer before Aus highlighted also exactly what's happening regarding their aero approaches of in and out wash and how they could play out and pretty much nailed it how MGP approach had great room to develop but would be ultimately slower in straighline speed but better for corner performance and now we are seeing magnified as they season goes on and Mercedes lean out their development.

 

2019 showing again how good Mercedes engineers are .. they just always keep finding a way to keeping making it better and better month after month where other teams stall.


Edited by Paco, 14 April 2019 - 15:22.


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#3760 sabjit

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 15:32

This aged well  :drunk:

 

This is why you dont write off cars pre season.

 

You forget testing is quite a long process so if you make a bold prediction it will get built up for weeks and when its wrong you look very silly.

 

But we will forget all this next year and we will have the same old. Some of us will point out this happens every year then we will be laughed at because apparently this year is different.



#3761 Mercstar

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 15:32

Mercedes shouldn't get ahead of themselves, yes life is rosy right now, but it doesn't take long for things to change. Lets be honest, no one really understands the reason for the fluctuation in form over the first 3 races, so it wouldn't at all be surprising to see Ferrari surge ahead again in the next couple of races.

 

Having said that, this team is operating at such a phenomenal level, I just can't see Ferrari beating them over the course of the season. 


Edited by Mercstar, 14 April 2019 - 15:35.


#3762 pRy

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 15:35

Kravitz also said it's really ''circuit-dependant'' what decides if Mercedes or Ferrari is stronger.

 

Nico covered this on his YouTube blog. The Ferrari has strong straight line speed but isn't great in the corners. I guess Barcelona may have favoured that setup.



#3763 ToniF1

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 15:49

Clutch

 

https://twitter.com/...335457862438912

 

D4-GSqfl-Ww-AId-N6b.jpg

 

D4-GSr-E8-W4-AAl-AYh.jpg

 

 



#3764 beachdrifter

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 16:05

Wolff: 

 

"Based on our long run simulations we didn’t think it would be so straightforward and our advantage to Ferrari came as a bit of a surprise. They still look very quick on the straights; I’m not sure it’s just the power, our car is maybe a bit draggier than theirs, but we have to keep working on our straight-line performance."


Edited by beachdrifter, 14 April 2019 - 16:05.


#3765 beachdrifter

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 16:31

Lets be honest, no one really understands the reason for the fluctuation in form over the first 3 races, so it wouldn't at all be surprising to see Ferrari surge ahead again in the next couple of races.

 

 

I think the DNA of the cars hasn't really fundamentally changed from past seasons. The Merc doesn't really like the rear-limited Bahrain circuit too much, they struggled a bit with rear grip there, and China has traditionally been a happy hunting ground for Merc, being front-limited (article from 4 days ago): 

 

Who’s looking good for the win?

Once again, it’s hard to see past Lewis Hamilton. The Shanghai International Circuit is one of those tracks that Hamilton just clicks with, the Brit’s five wins here the same as his record at Silverstone, Monza, the Circuit of The Americas and Suzuka (albeit behind his six at Montreal and the Hungaroring).

 

He’s backed up by Mercedes’ fantastic record in China in recent years. Nico Rosberg took the Silver Arrows’ first modern-day victory here in 2012, while from 2014-2017, no other team was on the top step. Daniel Ricciardo ruined that little run with his dramatic victory in 2018, but that was largely thanks to the timing of the Safety Car allowing sixth-place Ricciardo to duck into the pits while leader Valtteri Bottas – who had had the measure of Hamilton all weekend and was looking good for the win to continue Mercedes’ streak – missed the window and had to stay out on his old rubber.

 

Ferrari certainly look to be the second best on paper coming into the weekend in China. But with their recent horsepower gains appearing to have put the fear into Mercedes’ Toto Wolff – who recently claimed that the Scuderia’s power was unmatched by anyone else – we’re expecting a fantastic battle between the two, with Red Bull (despite Ricciardo’s win for them last year) the victory outsiders.

 

How each team handles their tyres on a front-limited circuit will be key.

 

https://www.formula1...D6PH11BezZ.html

 

Overall, the cars look pretty evenly matched right now, with different strengths and weaknesses. So it's pretty much the circuit, in conjunction with who does the best job on the setup front on any given weekend, that determines the order in terms of pure pace. 


Edited by beachdrifter, 14 April 2019 - 16:36.


#3766 Marklar

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 16:36

Ferrari lacks way too much in the corners to be considered "equally matched" as of now, and playing the excuse some used to explain away Mercedes' advantage in Melbourne: Shanghai is more "representative" than Bahrain is.

The advantage is firmly in Mercedes' court, especially as they are also better in other areas. But there is a chance that Ferrari can bounce back.

#3767 Jordan44

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 16:39

Nico covered this on his YouTube blog. The Ferrari has strong straight line speed but isn't great in the corners. I guess Barcelona may have favoured that setup.

 

Barcelona is probably the most representative of an aero track you get. So it wouldn't suit that sort of setup.

 

What we saw in testing I think was purely down to Mercedes being a week behind Ferrari - they arrived with a car from November. That surely has a big impact on the program you run.

 

They still haven't fully explained the reasoning behind that tbh, and I'm interested. Maybe it's as simple as the fact they were slightly behind schedule on development.


Edited by Jordan44, 14 April 2019 - 16:40.


#3768 beachdrifter

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 16:44

What we saw in testing I think was purely down to Mercedes being a week behind Ferrari - they arrived with a car from November. That surely has a big impact on the program you run.

 

They still haven't fully explained the reasoning behind that tbh, and I'm interested. Maybe it's as simple as the fact they were slightly behind schedule on development.

 

I thought they gave a very detailed explanation for this? What didn't you like about their explanation? 


Edited by beachdrifter, 14 April 2019 - 16:44.


#3769 Jordan44

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 16:44

I thought they gave a very detailed explanation for this? What didn't you like about their explanation? 

 

The fact they have never felt the need to do it before.



#3770 beachdrifter

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 16:52

The fact they have never felt the need to do it before.

 

Other teams said they'd like to do it as well, but just don't have the resources to pull that off.

 

I think Merc realized the threat Ferrari posed last season (but squandered away with surprisingly poor lead driver performances and an errant development path). They needed to up their game, and that was the most aggressive approach they could come up with, while still having enough time to test the new spec and then cure some of its shortcomings in the run up to the first race.


Edited by beachdrifter, 14 April 2019 - 16:54.


#3771 KiloWatt

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 17:32

Am I the only one left deeply impressed by the double-stack final pit stop?  Being able to pull of a risky maneuver like that, under pressure is remarkable.  There is so many ways in which that can go wrong, and so few in which it can succeed.  Excellent demonstration of why they've been so successful the last few years.  Very proud of them!


Edited by KiloWatt, 14 April 2019 - 17:32.


#3772 MaxisOne

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 19:26

Am I the only one left deeply impressed by the double-stack final pit stop?  Being able to pull of a risky maneuver like that, under pressure is remarkable.  There is so many ways in which that can go wrong, and so few in which it can succeed.  Excellent demonstration of why they've been so successful the last few years.  Very proud of them!

 

Your'e not the only one. I was left amazed at how clinical they made it look. Mercedes were on top of their game today !!



#3773 SonGoku

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 19:58

Mercedes use Stuttgart whenever they ''run out'' of resources, in other words, a massive amount of talented engineers is ready to join to help when it's needed.



#3774 Jordan44

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 20:01

Mercedes use Stuttgart whenever they ''run out'' of resources, in other words, a massive amount of talented engineers is ready to join to help when it's needed.

 

And a load of computers that can run CFD fo the F1 program completely undetected.

 

Very handy if there's a budget cap   ;)



#3775 Whatisvalis

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 20:10

Am I the only one left deeply impressed by the double-stack final pit stop?  Being able to pull of a risky maneuver like that, under pressure is remarkable.  There is so many ways in which that can go wrong, and so few in which it can succeed.  Excellent demonstration of why they've been so successful the last few years.  Very proud of them!

 

I wish they had done it for both stops, just to rub it in.



#3776 EndlessMotion

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 20:51

Honestly was wondering if they'd try the double stack before I saw Bottas was coming in with Hamilton. The gap between the two cars was quite favourable in fairness, but obviously only provided you nail the first stop. Still, getting just the one stop perfect is hard enough for the pit crews, let alone the added pressure of having twice the number of tyres to haul around without costing either of your guys. Beautifully done.



#3777 MortenF1

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 20:55

It was beautiful indeed. Actually Bottas’ stop was a couple of tenths faster too, which I think makes it even more impressive. (...he radioed «make sure we don’t lose time.»)

#3778 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 20:57

Mercedes use Stuttgart whenever they ''run out'' of resources, in other words, a massive amount of talented engineers is ready to join to help when it's needed.

 

I very much doubt that's how it works. There is very little that can be translated from road car engineering to a race car. 



#3779 SonGoku

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 21:19

I very much doubt that's how it works. There is very little that can be translated from road car engineering to a race car. 

 

I am pretty sure of it, Wolff mentioned it many times.


Edited by SonGoku, 14 April 2019 - 21:20.


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#3780 SCEPurple

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 21:53

ArrowsLivery is correct, that’s now how it works on the Formula 1 side.

#3781 geralt

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 22:03

Eh, the double stack was fine, but it was far from perfect. The one from Red Bull in China last year was better



#3782 Jordan44

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 22:09

ArrowsLivery is correct, that’s now how it works on the Formula 1 side.

 

Goku is correct in what he said. Wolff stated this year (due to the new regs) they drafted in some additional people from Stuttgart.

 

Just because you specialise in road cars doesn't mean you know absolutely nothing about building racing cars. At the end of the day, racing vehicle dynamics are still vehicle dynamics.


Edited by Jordan44, 14 April 2019 - 22:10.


#3783 rodlamas

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 23:12

Eh, the double stack was fine, but it was far from perfect. The one from Red Bull in China last year was better

The pressure eases off a lot when you are driving 40% slower (VSC mode).



#3784 teejay

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 03:07

Great result for the team so far this season - and whilst Ferrari gets it's act together keep stacking those points. 



#3785 Shade

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:09

Incredible double stack pitstop. Best team overall, great job. My team can only learn from this.



#3786 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:34

Incredible double stack pitstop. Best team overall, great job. My team can only learn from this.

 

The Double pitstop was mind blowing - perfect timing, and it could have gone so wrong...

 

A Massive :up: for pulling that off during a race at full speed...



#3787 SonGoku

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:08

 

 

Accordingly, Merc only run their engine at full power for about 2 laps per weekend (which they save for Q3).

Wolff: "Ferrari can use higher performance levels in the training sessions than we can. This has to do with the calibration of the engine."

Source: AMuS

https://www.auto-mot... ... hina-2019/

 

Interesting to keep an eye on.



#3788 beachdrifter

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:21

Interesting to keep an eye on.


We talked about that already a little further up. It seems to have no implications for race simulations or the race itself. It only seems to affect single lap performance runs in free practice, so it's more of a "nice to know"-kinda thing.

#3789 Marklar

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:30

Mark Hughes also mentioned that Ferrari has just in qualifying a power advantage

#3790 TomNokoe

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:35

Mark Hughes also mentioned that Ferrari has just in qualifying a power advantage

 


This is strange because it does not look like the gap between them is that different Saturday vs Sunday. Both in Bahrain and China. If anything the gap grew in Bahrain and shrunk in China, although it's hard to tell because of the ridiculously powerful undercuts we've seen.

Edited by TomNokoe, 15 April 2019 - 13:39.


#3791 beachdrifter

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:37

Mark Hughes also mentioned that Ferrari has just in qualifying a power advantage

 

In high power modes, which are also used in key parts of the race. Just not in general race-running mode, which is great news. 



#3792 SonGoku

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:37

Hughes is wrong, watch the onboard and Bottas is powerless with fresh new tyres behind LEC the first lap on the long straight. That was pure engine power keeping LEC in front of him for that time.



#3793 tokengator82

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 02:10

Hughes is wrong, watch the onboard and Bottas is powerless with fresh new tyres behind LEC the first lap on the long straight. That was pure engine power keeping LEC in front of him for that time.


And the counter is Hamilton chasing down Vettel in bahrain. He was able to keep vettel within touching distance..tried one pass and failed and came right back to attempt it again and was going to pass vettel even without the spin

Edited by tokengator82, 16 April 2019 - 02:11.


#3794 w1Y

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 06:36

Hughes is wrong, watch the onboard and Bottas is powerless with fresh new tyres behind LEC the first lap on the long straight. That was pure engine power keeping LEC in front of him for that time.

And with drs bottas couldnt pull away from le clerc

Double stack was excellent and the whole weekend was pretty spot on by the team.

Toto saying they have some good stuff coming to the car aswell.

Should also add that pole hasnt been able to maintain positoin again. I do have to question whether pole is being put at a disadvantage because of specifics such as the side.of the track they are on or how close they are to the thick white lines across the track. At this point it seems to regular to be a conincidance.

Yet again the two on the dirty side gained positions. (lewis and charles)

Edited by w1Y, 16 April 2019 - 06:53.


#3795 Hela

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 10:09

Tyre selection for Baku

 

https://www.motorspo...m/news/id/22421


Edited by Hela, 16 April 2019 - 10:10.


#3796 Marklar

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 10:27

Should also add that pole hasnt been able to maintain positoin again. I do have to question whether pole is being put at a disadvantage because of specifics such as the side.of the track they are on or how close they are to the thick white lines across the track. At this point it seems to regular to be a conincidance.

Yet again the two on the dirty side gained positions. (lewis and charles)

 

Bahrain and Melbourne have traditionally low pole conversion rates (not surprised about Bahrain, but Melbourne always striked me as weird). China not, but Vettel didnt had a bad start in 3rd, he was just held up by Bottas.

I also dont think that they moved the line anywhere? (not like this would affect things anyways)

I guess we need to wait and see, the start procedure was slightly altered, if there is a trend, it might be more that.



#3797 Retrofly

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 11:30

There was a butt-load of rubber in-front of the 2nd place grid slot too, also I think Vet lost of because of trying to go around the outside of Bottas, not because he got a particularly bad start, his start was better than Bottas'



#3798 SonGoku

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 11:51

AMUS-analyse Ferrari vs Mercedes:

 

Ferrari looked like the winner of the Chinese Grand Prix on friday. They destroyed the Mercedes on the straights like they did in Bahrain. On saturday Mercedes halved Ferrari's advantage on the straights and defended their advantage in the slower corners. Of course Merc used their Q3 power, but that doesn't explain how they halved Ferrari advantage on the straights. It must be something else, because Ferrari also has a Q3 party mode to counter. It's hard to explain for AMUS.

 

https://www.auto-mot...chnik-probleme/



#3799 Marklar

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 11:53

AMUS-analyse Ferrari vs Mercedes:

Ferrari looked like the winner of the Chinese Grand Prix on friday. They destroyed the Mercedes on the straights like they did in Bahrain. On saturday Mercedes halved Ferrari's advantage on the straights and defended their advantage in the slower corners. Of course Merc used their Q3 power, but that doesn't explain how they halved Ferrari advantage on the straights. It must be something else, because Ferrari also has a Q3 party mode to counter. It's hard to explain for AMUS.

https://www.auto-mot...chnik-probleme/

Eh

Same happened in Bahrain as well, so not sure what's so surprising about this, especially as the same publication claimed that Merc is running the engine low due to cooling issues in practice.

Edited by Marklar, 16 April 2019 - 11:54.


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#3800 SonGoku

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 11:59

I guess, they think there is something more than that going on.