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Mercedes-AMG Technical Thread (W10 EQ Power+)


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#3801 AnR

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 12:03

So after six years of total Merc domination people are trying to figure out what's wrong with Ferrari, the only team coming remotely close  :drunk:  :clap:



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#3802 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 12:16

There was a butt-load of rubber in-front of the 2nd place grid slot too, also I think Vet lost of because of trying to go around the outside of Bottas, not because he got a particularly bad start, his start was better than Bottas'

I've noticed that on the prior races also....



#3803 HermannH

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 18:28

 A question to more technically savy people here. We seem to be discovering that certain circuits are good for Ferrari, some for Mercedes and we can speculate whether it is because the circuit is rear limited or front limited. If we take the upcoming circuits, then which circuits belong in what category?


Edited by HermannH, 16 April 2019 - 18:28.


#3804 sabjit

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 18:50

Bahrain and Melbourne have traditionally low pole conversion rates (not surprised about Bahrain, but Melbourne always striked me as weird).

 

Melbourne might be skewed by Lewis' now traditional pole then second place, 



#3805 Timstr11

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 19:38

 A question to more technically savy people here. We seem to be discovering that certain circuits are good for Ferrari, some for Mercedes and we can speculate whether it is because the circuit is rear limited or front limited. If we take the upcoming circuits, then which circuits belong in what category?

 

Looking ahead to Baku, I don't think it's hard on tyres. From what I remember from a team preview, the pre-dominantly slow corners actually make it hard to put temperature into the front tyres. The long straight doesn't help as it cools them down quickly. 

So I'd expect a car with relatively more grip at the front to have less of a problem with bringing the front tyres into the window.

 

At the same time, a low drag level will be beneficial due to the 2 km long straight. 

Hard to say which team will benefit.


Edited by Timstr11, 16 April 2019 - 19:47.


#3806 MortenF1

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 19:42

Tyre selection for Baku

https://www.motorspo...m/news/id/22421

One has to ask what the purpose of bringing the hardest compound (on almost any given weekend) is.

#3807 beachdrifter

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 22:28

One has to ask what the purpose of bringing the hardest compound (on almost any given weekend) is.


To put it on the car? Use it in the race? Like, just a few days ago?

Often it's simply a hedge if another compound doesn't work on any given weekend. Leclerc used it in Melbourne, also.

Edited by beachdrifter, 17 April 2019 - 10:01.


#3808 beachdrifter

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 23:02

Looking ahead to Baku, I don't think it's hard on tyres. From what I remember from a team preview, the pre-dominantly slow corners actually make it hard to put temperature into the front tyres. The long straight doesn't help as it cools them down quickly. 

So I'd expect a car with relatively more grip at the front to have less of a problem with bringing the front tyres into the window.

 

At the same time, a low drag level will be beneficial due to the 2 km long straight. 

Hard to say which team will benefit.

 

Yes, and an additional factor is the track surface, that can also help (or not) getting the tyres up to temperature. And of the course track temperatures themselves. 

 

On another note, Horner says chassis-wise they've now caught up with Merc/Ferrari (based on China S1/S2). Talk about a quick turnaround!

Marko is talking about having a 20 hp engine upgrade in Baku already... unless he's BS'ing again, that would take Red Bull right into the midst of things. 



#3809 beachdrifter

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 23:05

Binotto says a rear wing like Mercedes has is in the works for them. Does anyone know what he means by that? I haven't really heard anyone discussing rear wing differences, they all focused on the front wings. 



#3810 beachdrifter

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 23:34

Last year (this year), Merc (Ferrari) were favorites after pre-season testing.

 

However, they couldn't win any of the first three races while Ferrari (Merc) locked out the front row twice in qualifying. Didn't bring any updates while their main competitor brought updates to every race. Had issues getting/keeping the car in the tyre window.

 

There was some talk in the paddock about Merc (Ferrari) perhaps running into a wall with their aero concept...

 

(in brackets: 2019)

 

:cool:

 

 

 



#3811 beachdrifter

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 00:41

First estimate I've seen this season of Ferrari's engine advantage over Merc: 15 hp in quali, 5 hp in the race (based on Bahrain where Ferrari used full power)

 

source: F1AT



#3812 beachdrifter

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 00:48

Gotta applaud Merc for being the best (among the Top 3) with the tyres so far (as far as getting them into the right window)!

 

So all that hard work over the winter paid off!  :up:



#3813 Will

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 05:12

Indeed, it seems that developing a gar to be able to turn on its tyres properly in most races seems to be more valuable than a few extra hp.

#3814 uraharakisuke

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 07:21

If Ferrari's missing pace in the slow corners is indeed down to not working the tyres properly (and not something fundamentally aero based) then if they sort that out Merc could be in some trouble. They really need to close the engine gap.



#3815 Huffer

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 07:51

If Ferrari's missing pace in the slow corners is indeed down to not working the tyres properly (and not something fundamentally aero based) then if they sort that out Merc could be in some trouble. They really need to close the engine gap.

 

I think you're underestimating the impact of aerodynamics at slower speeds - tire operating window is all about temperature and maintaining that temperature - making sure it doesn't get too high as well as cooling off. If you have too much lateral slip at low speeds, you're going to overcook the tires and that's where even just a little bit of more consistent aerodynamics can help by increasing the maximum forces the tires can produce.


Edited by Huffer, 17 April 2019 - 08:03.


#3816 robefc

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 07:52

Yes, and an additional factor is the track surface, that can also help (or not) getting the tyres up to temperature. And of the course track temperatures themselves. 

 

On another note, Horner says chassis-wise they've now caught up with Merc/Ferrari (based on China S1/S2). Talk about a quick turnaround!

Marko is talking about having a 20 hp engine upgrade in Baku already... unless he's BS'ing again, that would take Red Bull right into the midst of things. 

 

At any given moment Red Bull would be walking the championships if it was based on Marko's & Horner's talk...



#3817 uraharakisuke

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 08:08

I think you're underestimating the impact of aerodynamics at slower speeds - tire operating window is all about temperature and maintaining that temperature - making sure it doesn't get too high as well as cooling off. If you have too much lateral slip at low speeds, you're going to overcook the tires and that's where even just a little bit of more consistent aerodynamics can help by increasing the maximum forces the tires can produce.

Ah you're right on that I should have been more clear though, I was thinking more in terms of whether not working the tyres right in slow corners could be fixed via set-up changes, rather than something inherently "wrong".



#3818 Huffer

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 08:24

Ah you're right on that I should have been more clear though, I was thinking more in terms of whether not working the tyres right in slow corners could be fixed via set-up changes, rather than something inherently "wrong".

 

I suppose it could be - a bit more toe-in, or positive camber, or even perhaps somehow shifting the aero balance a bit more forward so that there's more lateral slip on the rear wheels to reduce lateral slip on the fronts, suspension setup to increase/decrease shifting of weight etc.

 

But the effect tends to be limited, and you're often sacrificing something to gain somewhere else. It's a delicate balance, and it's something that I think Merc were struggling with the last few years and why the car was such a Diva - struggling to get the car "just right" to make up for some flaws in the aero without making massive sacrifices elsewhere, as their PU advantage eroded. 

But they seem to have a good combo of aero and suspension that works well in slow and fast corners and gives them room to work the tires. It's almost as if they've gone into RBR mode now that the PU isn't the class of the field. 
 



#3819 MonkeySpin

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 08:48

The whole Ferrari engine thing is boring now.

 

Last year they apparently had a mega engine, yet got smashed in the championship by a considerable margin.

 

This year they are getting smashed even harder so far.

 

Nobody will ever know what power the engines produce, or how much downforce/drag a car produces. Just look at the cars as a package.

 

And as a package the Mercedes is better. They also have a philosophy that should translate to better development and have always shown incredible development through the season consistently. Ferrari are already seeing issues with their lack of downforce, presumably as a result of that radical front wing gamble. Ferrari spec B coming soon with traditional wings is my guess, but too late to make a difference.



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#3820 beachdrifter

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 10:09

At any given moment Red Bull would be walking the championships if it was based on Marko's & Horner's talk...


They have different roles. Horner is very reasonable, his goal has been closing the gap to Merc and Ferrari, and he thinks they're getting there.

Marko is a bit like a caricature, so much so that Horner distanced himself quite a few times from him. Nonetheless the engine upgrade seems indeed planned for Baku.

By Barcelona they should be able to compete for more than just 4th places.

#3821 Marklar

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 10:26

Horner very reasonable?

:lol:

#3822 beachdrifter

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 10:41

Horner very reasonable?

Yes. His stated goal as well as his assessment of the current situation. He sung a very different tune to Marko since preseason.

https://www.reuters....r-idUSKBN1QU0ZS

Edited by beachdrifter, 17 April 2019 - 10:46.


#3823 7WDC

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 10:54

So after six years of total Merc domination people are trying to figure out what's wrong with Ferrari, the only team coming remotely close  :drunk:  :clap:

 

In 2003 FIA changed qualy format (1 lap with race fuel) over the winter to try to stop Ferrari domination. They partialy made it.

In 2005 they changed it again and they made it with the 1 set of tyres for the entire race. Even so Schumacher was 3rd in the champioship!

Now this is never going to change... :wave: Mercedes and Hamilton will carry on winning.

Hamilton will beat all of Schumacher records, except maybe fastest laps. It`s a little bit sad for me as a Schumacher fan but i am ready for it now... :clap:

It was Schumacher who said that record are meant to be broken and it`s true.


Edited by 7WDC, 17 April 2019 - 11:03.


#3824 Marklar

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 11:21

Yes. His stated goal as well as his assessment of the current situation. He sung a very different tune to Marko since preseason.

https://www.reuters....r-idUSKBN1QU0ZS

more reasonable than the biggest bshitter in the paddock <> very reasonable



#3825 beachdrifter

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 11:44

more reasonable than the biggest bshitter in the paddock <> very reasonable

 

What do you think is so unreasonable about the other part then, since the first was obviously accurate: 

 

"Definitely we’ve made a step forward since Bahrain and we are definitely more competitive this weekend," he said.

"When you look on the overlays in sector one and two, we are in good shape.

"Sector three we have some work to do but we have some upgrades which will help with that which are coming soon. So generally on that side, it was a positive weekend."

Sector three includes Shanghai's long 1.4km back stretch, which implies that Honda must also hold up its end of the bargain.

"There is stuff in the pipeline that will certainly help but others aren't standing still," said Horner.

"It is all about evolution. Our goal this year has been all about closing the gap to Mercedes and Ferrari and we are doing that.

"We split the Ferraris, and were certainly closer on pace to Mercedes. There will be a concertina effect that will happen between now and the halfway point of the year."

 

 

Does this sound like he's claiming they'll "walk the championship"? 



#3826 Hela

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 11:47

Ferrari might be more competitive in Baku, S1 is basically point and squirt for 2 and half straights and then you have the demon long straight in S3, S2 might be an issue but I think the other 2 sectors covers them. Althoguh I can't remember how bumpy the track is  and how this might affect them.

 

Mercedes however dealt well with the bumpy surface of Australia, but with the swings we have been getting this season it will be a brave man that bets on who the winner will be.



#3827 CountDooku

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 11:52

WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT RBR, HORNER & MARKO IN THE MERC CAR THREAD??



#3828 beachdrifter

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 11:54

Ferrari might be more competitive in Baku, S1 is basically point and squirt for 2 and half straights and then you have the demon long straight in S3, S2 might be an issue but I think the other 2 sectors covers them. Althoguh I can't remember how bumpy the track is  and how this might affect them.

 

Mercedes however dealt well with the bumpy surface of Australia, but with the swings we have been getting this season it will be a brave man that bets on who the winner will be.

 

Yeah, you cannot really estimate this in any reasonable way. Just too many factors involved, and the balance of all of them is going to decide it. Not only that, they'll also be using a different aero configuration for Baku which introduces yet another variable on top of the 5 or so key factors already at play. And some of those factors aren't even known yet. 

 

And Baku has seen some pretty wild races... I like it! 


Edited by beachdrifter, 17 April 2019 - 13:08.


#3829 beachdrifter

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 12:47

WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT RBR, HORNER & MARKO IN THE MERC CAR THREAD??

 

For the same reason they talk about Merc on the Ferrari car thread. Or Ferrari on the Red Bull car thread. It's a competitive sport, and the car and its capabilities cannot be meaningfully discussed in a vacuum. 

 

"Look at the new front wing! It looks somewhat different" is not what the car threads have ever been mainly about.

 

It's about where the car stands relative to the competition that matters most, and the sport is dynamic, and things are subject to change from race to race. Red Bull starting to catch up in terms of aero and potentially engine is a major development worth keeping an eye on. 



#3830 beachdrifter

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 12:54

The tiny infraction that forced Mercedes’ front wing change in China

 

https://www.formula1...ebUJL5oklP.html


Edited by beachdrifter, 17 April 2019 - 12:54.


#3831 CountDooku

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 14:07

For the same reason they talk about Merc on the Ferrari car thread. Or Ferrari on the Red Bull car thread. It's a competitive sport, and the car and its capabilities cannot be meaningfully discussed in a vacuum. 

 

"Look at the new front wing! It looks somewhat different" is not what the car threads have ever been mainly about.

 

It's about where the car stands relative to the competition that matters most, and the sport is dynamic, and things are subject to change from race to race. Red Bull starting to catch up in terms of aero and potentially engine is a major development worth keeping an eye on. 

 

No one goes to the Ferrari thread and posts about the gains of the Honda engine, or Marko's views on their aero but you do it here constantly.

This year the general team threads we split from car threads specifically to end this off topic nonsense, yet you keep posting them here. Feel free to post about RBR and their personnel in the two dedicated threads.



#3832 MortenF1

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 14:50

To put it on the car? Use it in the race? Like, just a few days ago?

Often it's simply a hedge if another compound doesn't work on any given weekend. Leclerc used it in Melbourne, also.

Oh cool, yet another smartass on this board.
Teams bring one set. That tells you how they rate the validity of that compound.

#3833 Shade

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 14:53

Oh cool, yet another smartass on this board.
Teams bring one set. That tells you how they rate the validity of that compound.

There are some laps that are done which we don't see. Teams shakedown their cars, they do installation laps, and there's no point in using the Mediums and Softs.



#3834 beachdrifter

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 14:54

Teams bring one set. That tells you how they rate the validity of that compound.

 

They bring one or two, use it accordingly. But the point is they actually do use it!

 

Pirelli thinks they should bring more of it, but the selection is made many months in advance.



#3835 MortenF1

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 14:56

IMO they could just scrap it. 13 or 14 sets or what it is for the weekend, soft and medium.

#3836 beachdrifter

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 15:03

IMO they could just scrap it. 13 or 14 sets or what it is for the weekend, soft and medium.

 

It would mean less strategic options and alternatives for teams, which is the opposite of what is wanted in F1.



#3837 MortenF1

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 15:11

There are not many races where all compounds were used. Wouldn’t make much difference if it was just two...

#3838 beachdrifter

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 15:17

There are not many races where all compounds were used. Wouldn’t make much difference if it was just two...

 

It's what made Ricciardo's one-stop strategy possible, going against what others were doing, netting him 7th. 

 

"But it was very clear from our strategists that a two-stop would not work for us, so we had to make the one-stop work, and it worked."

 

 

F1 wants more variety, not less.

 

For Merc, it hasn't done much so far (because they've been so good with the other tyres). For other teams though, it has made a difference.


Edited by beachdrifter, 17 April 2019 - 15:23.


#3839 tokengator82

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 17:43

mopesquad better hope ferrari figures something out soon to justify all their mopery because a couple more 1-2's for merc and the gap will be borderline insurmountable barring some epic and uncharacteristic collapse from merc  



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#3840 Pimpwerx

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 18:37

Not everyone was negative and doubtful after testing. I was pretty calm after winter testing, mostly due to an unshakable belief in Adrian Newey.

 

https://forums.autos...26#entry8656807

 

Having his brilliant mind develop the front wing in the same direction as Mercedes was a legit confidence booster, despite the whole world seemingly championing Ferrari's cause. Glad my Krak(en) dreams are coming true so far.

 

https://forums.autos...-8#entry8675656

 

You can't tame the beast, you can only hope to keep pace with it. Let's fly Silver Arrows!



#3841 beachdrifter

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 22:47

f1

Another angle on @mercedesamgf1’s near-perfect double stack stop during Sunday’s race in Shanghai

 

https://www.instagra...deo_watch_again



#3842 OO7

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 19:11

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#3843 OO7

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 19:55

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#3844 OO7

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 06:22

2000.jpeg2019-04-15-21-05-46-NVIDIA-Ge-Force-Over



#3845 w1Y

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 06:31

One of the best ever looking cars IMO, even with the Halo.

#3846 OO7

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 21:59

The difference in drag levels between the Ferrari and Mercedes, may in part be down to their DRS designs.  The Ferrari employs a large cord main-plane with smaller DRS flap while the Mercedes uses a large cord DRS flap with a smaller main-plane.  The Ferrari design is said to be better for qualification, while the Mercedes option is better for Sundays:

2HQwUBL.jpg


Edited by OO7, 20 April 2019 - 22:00.


#3847 SonGoku

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 23:50

2000.jpeg2019-04-15-21-05-46-NVIDIA-Ge-Force-Over

 

The first car in testing was as unimpressive as I had ever seen. Then they released this new beast in the second week. Just the packaging of the whole car is beautiful to see.



#3848 IceSpeed

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 00:41

Has anyone posted a side by side comparison between the 1st week and 2nd week?

In a tech group that’s generally how we release brand new products ie in the first release ensure the infrastructure is good to go with network connectivity etc... before launching the full blown app and wire it to the infra.

Would be interesting to see what triggered merc to go down this path. Usually you can easily pin point issues when there are not too many variables at play and sets a good baseline (but not sure if that’s why they went down this path and whether it will be the norm moving forward)

#3849 JonnyJ

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 11:05

Tweaks the the Y250 vortex generator area of the FW at Baku

IMG-20190424-120413.jpg

Edited by JonnyJ, 24 April 2019 - 11:10.


#3850 rodlamas

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 14:48

Less front wing?