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Mercedes-AMG Technical Thread (W10 EQ Power+)


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#4401 kernel

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 17:43

Most likely the drivers couldn't see sod all out of them (the mirror glass was odd) so the minimal difference they make wasn't worth the drivers being uncomfortable. Ferrari dropped theirs from last season too.

 

That would be very amateur-ish from Merc (or any F1 team for that matter) to design a rear-view mirror which doesn't fulfil its primary objective...

 

From photos released to date, it sounds like Merc has 2 different rear wing endplate configurations. Unclear whether any of those two is new.

 

EDIT: BTW, is it time to start the second thread? Thought the page limit was 80?


Edited by kernel, 22 May 2019 - 17:44.


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#4402 JonnyJ

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 17:52

That would be very amateur-ish from Merc (or any F1 team for that matter) to design a rear-view mirror which doesn't fulfil its primary objective...


Not really, it's pushing boundaries. Like I say, it's a marginal gain, but one that's obviously only worth taking if it doesn't hinder the drivers more than its gaining you in slightly decreased drag. Only way you can see if the drivers like it is to mount it to the car and let them try it out.

Given they have a sizeable advantage over the competition it's hardly worth risking the drivers crashing out for a tiny amount of lap time gain. Perhaps if the competition was neck and neck/ahead they'd tell them to live with it.

#4403 Marklar

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 18:38

Speculation that Mercedes managed to replicate the effects of the in 2017 banned trick suspension https://www.f1analis...pushrod-on.html

D7MGE__W0AAWhIk.jpg

Edited by Marklar, 22 May 2019 - 18:38.


#4404 Ivanhoe

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 19:05

If true, shouldn’t the ‘effect’ be banned instead of the way you achieve it? Looks like another trick suspension to me.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 22 May 2019 - 19:16.


#4405 hodgy21

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 19:32

If true, shouldn’t the ‘effect’ be banned instead of the way you achieve it? Looks like another trick suspension to me.


Can you clarify just what it is that you want to ban?
Can you also clarify what exactly it is that you think Mercedes has done which is illegal to warrant the ban.

Thank you.

#4406 SonGoku

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 19:44

It's not a trick suspension, it's a beast of a chassis with loads of downforce combined with the most efficient engine treating the tyres better than everyone else, but that doesn't sell so F1analis needs to invent some trick.



#4407 OO7

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 19:56

Speculation that Mercedes managed to replicate the effects of the in 2017 banned trick suspension https://www.f1analis...pushrod-on.html

D7MGE__W0AAWhIk.jpg

It's been known for a while that Mercedes has been running such a set-up and it's not just them, Renault, Alfa Romeo and I think Toro Rosso also run a similar layout.



#4408 P123

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 20:14

If true, shouldn’t the ‘effect’ be banned instead of the way you achieve it? Looks like another trick suspension to me.


Banning the 'effect' of something.... that would open a huge can of worms up and down the grid. No, they could just reword the rules, but I'm not sure you could guarantee only hobbling Merc, so may not have the desired goal of helping the others get closer (although I know memories are short but Ferrari had race winning pace in Bahrain and pole winning pace in Baku).

#4409 Ivanhoe

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 20:15

Can you clarify just what it is that you want to ban?
Can you also clarify what exactly it is that you think Mercedes has done which is illegal to warrant the ban.
Thank you.

Suspension enhancing aerodynamic performance, Mercedes are the true pioneers on this, since 2017(?) In a way I agree with P123 that trying to ban ‘effects’ would be opening a can of worms. But, well, yeah, it’s still kind of a trick if it works. Guess it’s all about exploiting the limits of the regulations.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 22 May 2019 - 20:35.


#4410 Hephaistos

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 04:05

The notion that Mercedes have spend "about the same" as the other big teams is a bit of a peep into the future world of budget caps if you ask me. They've only "spend the same" as Ferrari and RB based on figures offered, for which there is no obligation and certainly no forensics into corporate structures and expenditures. I'm quite certain that Mercedes total engine development costs dwarf the kinds of numbers banded about. Comparing their total spending to RBR over the hybrid era is hilarious considering RBR have only had a works engine for a matter of months and could not afford to build their own. The only other team remotely in the same postcode is Ferrari and they've enjoyed huge additional subsidy in the Hybrid era. I'm quite sure that Mercedes have spent the most in the hybrid era and they are dominating it, followed by Ferrari, followed by RBR. So yeah, Mercedes performance is incredibly impressive, almost faultless these days, but the facts are the championship table runs in total budget order. I wouldn't say many other teams are underperforming within their budgets.


Just because Mercedes have been better is not enough for you to draw the conclusion that they have spent more than everybody. There's absolutely no evidence of that.
But bringing in the right people, some of whom were sacked (Aldo Costa for instance) and create the conditions for them to perform at their best is probably their greatest achievement.

#4411 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:42

Makes sense, Greta enabled the kids a free friday from school, while Lewis is wasting their sunday :p

AFAIK people at Daimler have more of an issue with it that there is no German driver, the whole debate about enviromental waste is a external minority opinion and mostly shared by those who are not aware that Dailmer actually isnt spending that much own capital.

Few friday funded by Soros....

#4412 ARTGP

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 12:44

It's not a trick suspension, it's a beast of a chassis with loads of downforce combined with the most efficient engine treating the tyres better than everyone else, but that doesn't sell so F1analis needs to invent some trick.

 

This comment doesn't make a lot of sense when you consider that most of the performance advantage comes from the low speed stuff where the aero effect is the least. 

 

Traditionally a car unloads itself on the inside tires due to weight transfer in the corners.  This is what limits the maximum corner speed (on top of the downforce).  If you can use the suspension to push down on the inside tire, you keep load on the front inside tire during trail braking and at apex, meaning you can go faster. 

 

It's obvious on the front axle, that if you make a geometry, and just boost up the power steering, you can load the inside tire in a corner without straining the driver anymore than usual.

 

If you have managed to replicate this effect on the rear axle (where the everything is passive), you could also improve the corner exit traction on the inside wheel as well. But would require very clever implementation.

 

I don't know what Mercedes are actually doing. But it's a possibility that its'a combination of many many things including aero, and suspension.  Overall they have a great car.


Edited by ARTGP, 23 May 2019 - 12:51.


#4413 CountDooku

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 19:41

So what are AMUS saying today? Do Mercedes have a chance against mighty Ferrari?

#4414 OO7

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 19:46

So what are AMUS saying today? Do Mercedes have a chance against mighty Ferrari?

Mercedes have tyre warm-up issues, so it's Ferrari's race to lose.



#4415 hodgy21

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 19:51

Saw this in a reply to one of Craig Scarboroughs’ posts on twitter about the ‘camber plate’ of the hub. The movement of the upper wishbone on the inside wheel looks strange to me. What do you all think?

https://streamable.com/66x9w

#4416 kernel

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 19:57

Mercedes have tyre warm-up issues, so it's Ferrari's race to lose.

 

Are you serious?

 

It could make Q3 a bit of a lottery, but I presume Merc would probably go for 2 warm-up laps, 1 fast lap... given how short the lap is, it would be easily feasible around Monaco.



#4417 AmonGods

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 19:57

If in 2014-2016 Mercedes was clearly ahead of everybody else with their engine, this 2019 domination is coming out of nowhere. And they seem to run great on every track. They must have found a trick somewhere and no one knows about it.



#4418 OO7

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 20:17

Are you serious?

 

It could make Q3 a bit of a lottery, but I presume Merc would probably go for 2 warm-up laps, 1 fast lap... given how short the lap is, it would be easily feasible around Monaco.

No I wasn't being serious kernel, but I was tempted to post that in the Ferrari thread. :D



#4419 Maxioos

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 20:28

Saw this in a reply to one of Craig Scarboroughs’ posts on twitter about the ‘camber plate’ of the hub. The movement of the upper wishbone on the inside wheel looks strange to me. What do you all think?
https://streamable.com/66x9w


Never seen that before. Looks cool!

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#4420 CountDooku

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 20:32

Saw this in a reply to one of Craig Scarboroughs’ posts on twitter about the ‘camber plate’ of the hub. The movement of the upper wishbone on the inside wheel looks strange to me. What do you all think?

https://streamable.com/66x9w


Looks like 4wd to me.

#4421 MonkeySpin

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 21:01

Saw this in a reply to one of Craig Scarboroughs’ posts on twitter about the ‘camber plate’ of the hub. The movement of the upper wishbone on the inside wheel looks strange to me. What do you all think?

https://streamable.com/66x9w

 

Can somebody explain what is meant meant to be fancy about this?

 

Just looks like normal suspension parts moving about  :confused:



#4422 Jerem

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 23:26

Can somebody explain what is meant meant to be fancy about this?

 

Just looks like normal suspension parts moving about  :confused:

Suspensions normally move on bumps or kerbs, not in the corners. Look at any Monaco onboard, I haven't seen any other car do that this year or in the previous years.



#4423 beachdrifter

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 23:49

Suspensions normally move on bumps or kerbs, not in the corners. Look at any Monaco onboard, I haven't seen any other car do that this year or in the previous years.

 

But has the Merc done it all year? Even all the time in Monaco? Or is it just a fluke?



#4424 OO7

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 00:33

From the Spanish GP weekend & Test:

racefansdotnet-20190511-132828-29.jpg

 

More Images behind "spoiler" tag.  ***Warning!  I cannot be held accountable for any devices that explode as a result of opening the "spoiler" tag, nor will I be liable for any personal injury or death that may result.***

Spoiler

Monaco images to follow.


Edited by OO7, 25 May 2019 - 09:08.


#4425 OO7

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 01:27

From Monaco GP FP1 & FP2:

racefansdotnet-20190523-125758-20.jpg

 

More Images behind "spoiler" tag.  ***Warning!  I cannot be held accountable for any devices that explode as a result of opening the "spoiler" tag, nor will I be liable for any personal injury or death that may result.***

Spoiler

Edited by OO7, 25 May 2019 - 09:08.


#4426 OO7

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 01:30

More From Monaco GP FP1 & FP2:

f1-gp-monaco-2019-giovedi-00166.jpg

 

More Images behind "spoiler" tag.

Spoiler

Edited by OO7, 25 May 2019 - 09:07.


#4427 hamalo

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 05:42

But has the Merc done it all year? Even all the time in Monaco? Or is it just a fluke?

 

It looks different if you compare it:

 

https://www.youtube....h2JXolPVI#t=37s thats a lap from 2018, it's clearly moving a lot more in 2019.


Edited by hamalo, 24 May 2019 - 05:42.


#4428 Huffer

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 07:35

Speculation that Mercedes managed to replicate the effects of the in 2017 banned trick suspension https://www.f1analis...pushrod-on.html

 

Looks like a variation on a theme to me - Merc are using a ball-joint rather than some sort of king-pin used by the other teams. I don't see how you can get away with a single joint with the push/pull rod, because the packaging and positioning means that the loci of the rod isn't constrained to a single, shared reference plane.



#4429 Huffer

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 07:41

Suspensions normally move on bumps or kerbs, not in the corners. Look at any Monaco onboard, I haven't seen any other car do that this year or in the previous years.

 

That's not true at all - roll on the body is induced as additional lateral force is generated by the tries from below the car's CoG. Unless the suspension is rock-hard and doesn't move at all )which defeats the whole purpose of suspension), it will move because of roll and weight transfer caused by a change in lateral acceleration. 



#4430 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 07:57

Saw this in a reply to one of Craig Scarboroughs’ posts on twitter about the ‘camber plate’ of the hub. The movement of the upper wishbone on the inside wheel looks strange to me. What do you all think?

https://streamable.com/66x9w

 

Interesting video, looks to me like they run quite a bit of negative caster, which makes the inside wheel go up the more lock you put on. It's exaggerated by the full lock hairpin.



#4431 Pimpwerx

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 10:12

Can somebody explain what is meant meant to be fancy about this?

 

Just looks like normal suspension parts moving about  :confused:

The movement of the suspension is directly related to the amount of steering input. At full lock, it reaches the maximum range of suspension travel. It's something all cars probably do, but to a less noticeable extent. I can't tell if it's just more visible because of the high mounting of the Merc suspension arms, or due to their exaggerated use of the suspension trick. I assume scrutineers check every race weekend, so it's probably legal. Looks more than the 5mm maximum range of motion prescribed in the regs, but that's a static test, and in motion, things might be different.



#4432 joegsmro

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 13:38

Red halo !!! 



#4433 gillesfan76

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 14:42

Just because Mercedes have been better is not enough for you to draw the conclusion that they have spent more than everybody. There's absolutely no evidence of that.
But bringing in the right people, some of whom were sacked (Aldo Costa for instance) and create the conditions for them to perform at their best is probably their greatest achievement.

 

Exactly  :up:  Aldo was a key fish that John West rejects, yet Mercedes snapped him up and turned out a 3 Michelin star dish.



#4434 beachdrifter

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 22:37

A Mercedes engineer admits: "The new tyres have solved our biggest problem, without us needing to do much about it."

 

https://www.auto-mot...-2021-mercedes/

 

They have however changed 8 or 9 things on the car after their 2015 Singapore defeat that helped getting the problem of overheating tyres under control.

 

Also, the front wing change benefits Mercedes as well, as the new one harmonizes better with their car concept (Newey). 

 

This isn't really new, just further confirmation from sources from Mercedes and Red Bull.

 

The intentions behind the tyre changes as well as the front wing changes were really good. It just so happens that they're home runs for Mercedes, as well, and now the shoe is on the other foot relative to the tyres.


Edited by beachdrifter, 24 May 2019 - 22:37.


#4435 MaxisOne

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 22:49

Exactly  :up:  Aldo was a key fish that John West rejects, yet Mercedes snapped him up and turned out a 3 Michelin star dish.

 

That fish came with side dishes to boot.

In an interview he stated that he brought over a bunch of his proteges from Ferrari when he got the job at Mercedes. Pretty much a little Italy in Brackley. So when he moved to the advisory position the proteges are still there.



#4436 gillesfan76

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 01:06

That fish came with side dishes to boot.

In an interview he stated that he brought over a bunch of his proteges from Ferrari when he got the job at Mercedes. Pretty much a little Italy in Brackley. So when he moved to the advisory position the proteges are still there.

 

:up:  But hey, it's all just money and luck right???



#4437 beachdrifter

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:34

Some bits on how the Renault engine stacks up relative to the competition (German)

 

https://www.formel1....sher-gedrosselt

 

Another confirmation that Ferrari has more power than anybody else in qualifying (Mercedes' Andy Cowell also confirmed this two weeks ago, before Ferrari's Spec 2 intro), but it's interesting to hear that Renault believes they've closed the gap to Mercedes in both quali and the race engine-wise (they ran their engines detuned for technical reasons for a while, but now they're back to full spec). 

 

It's safe to say that Formula 1 is no longer an engine formula.



#4438 tokengator82

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:55

Some bits on how the Renault engine stacks up relative to the competition (German)
 
https://www.formel1....sher-gedrosselt
 
Another confirmation that Ferrari has more power than anybody else in qualifying (Mercedes' Andy Cowell also confirmed this two weeks ago, before Ferrari's Spec 2 intro), but it's interesting to hear that Renault believes they've closed the gap to Mercedes in both quali and the race engine-wise (they ran their engines detuned for technical reasons for a while, but now they're back to full spec). 
 
It's safe to say that Formula 1 is no longer an engine formula.


Uh huh

#4439 Topsu

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:58

Jesus Christ! Are all those images necessary? This tab must be 500+ MB :mad:



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#4440 Huffer

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 05:42

Jesus Christ! Are all those images necessary? This tab must be 500+ MB :mad:

 

Meh - they seem to be around 400K each - marvel the beauty of JPG encoding and how it takes advantage of flaws in human visual perception :)



#4441 popolonx

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 06:36

The problem now is that FIA does not measure steering effect over the 120 degree( 180 degree and more), where the merc advantage comes...so enjoy the advantage while it last...

#4442 uraharakisuke

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 08:30

The problem now is that FIA does not measure steering effect over the 120 degree( 180 degree and more), where the merc advantage comes...so enjoy the advantage while it last...

We aim to! Thank you for your recommendation!



#4443 kernel

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 08:39

Jesus Christ! Are all those images necessary? This tab must be 500+ MB :mad:


Can images (especially if posted in large quantities) be linked instead? Like a Imgur album? Much easier for browsing and admiring the photos.

#4444 Marklar

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 08:43

Could also use spoiler boxes

#4445 OO7

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 09:13

Jesus Christ! Are all those images necessary? This tab must be 500+ MB :mad:

 

 

Can images (especially if posted in large quantities) be linked instead? Like a Imgur album? Much easier for browsing and admiring the photos.

 

 

Could also use spoiler boxes

 

Sorted! :)



#4446 MortenF1

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:12

Watching from the swimming pool area, and just like in FP3, Hamilton doesn’t seem to have much confidence through here.

#4447 MortenF1

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:17

I can’t believe it! Vettel!

#4448 lewislorenzo

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:56

Credit to the team for improving their low speed corner performance. Although the tires have definitely helped also!

#4449 Jordan44

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 15:54

Seems a long time now since kernel was telling us in 2017 how Mercedes were doomed because the low rake long wheelbase concept had very limited development scope :p

Edited by Jordan44, 25 May 2019 - 15:55.


#4450 CountDooku

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 16:47

Seems a long time now since kernel was telling us in 2017 how Mercedes were doomed because the low rake long wheelbase concept had very limited development scope :p


I can just imagine kernel as a member of one of those end of days cults. :lol:
Some people are just natural pessimists and don’t like enjoying stuff!