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Alfa Romeo Racing Technical Thread (C38)


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#51 ensign14

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:29

What are those? Lotos/1Malaysia/Caterham/whatever, Stefan Grand Prix? Not quite worthy in my book.

 

Manor didn't sell the same seat five times and rely on a Bernie threat to avoid having the MD imprisoned.
 



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#52 Sterzo

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:33

It's definitely sad to see the Sauber name disappear, but to say this is "just" a rebranding misses the point that Alfa's investment has already rescued the team from oblivion. A bigger commitment has to be welcome.

 

Also, if you're going to have a brand at all, what a brand... a company that's always been devoted to producing interesting as opposed to mundane cars. They've made some of the most beautiful road and racing cars over the years. In racing, they've usually used essentially the same colour scheme (don't mention Benetton) for a century, with not one but two of the best ever badges. Even the name is terrific.

 

Shame they didn't give Rob Austin a drive, though.



#53 PayasYouRace

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:37

I won’t mention Benetton, Sterzo, but I will mention their Marlboro McLaren clones of the previous couple of years.

#54 noriaki

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:38

Only 9 seasons in F1, the last being 1985 if I'm not mistaken?

 

Grand Prix racing history. Even if Bernie has spent a lifetime in trying to deny it, F1 didn't just start from nothingness in 1950.

 

Little against the change of name. I have always liked the Hinwil team and the Sauber name left a lasting legacy in motorsport history. But Peter is long gone now. Alfa Romeo is still alive. 


Edited by noriaki, 01 February 2019 - 12:43.


#55 tigerkimi

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:38

Looking forward for the new livery...(without the white of Sauber) it must be something darker!!



#56 potmotr

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:40

Couldn't they have just named it Alfa Romeo Sauber F1. 

 

Such blatant disregard for history of F1 Teams really annoys me.

 

Same here.

Sauber is an iconic name in motor-racing, arguably even more so than Alfa Romeo! 



#57 Myrvold

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:49

It's definitely sad to see the Sauber name disappear, but to say this is "just" a rebranding misses the point that Alfa's investment has already rescued the team from oblivion. A bigger commitment has to be welcome.


Uh?

#58 MattK9

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:50

Indeed, but it's great that Tyrrell have won the last few titles after close battles with Ferrari and Stewart

 

Given that Sauber are sponsored by Alfa, that sarcastic statement should be changed to "it's great that Petronas have won the last few titles after close battles with Mission Winnow and Red Bull"

 

There, I fixed it!



#59 PlatenGlass

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:55

But Alfa Romeo has over a century of Grand Prix racing history.

Last time they were in F1, they were little more than a joke team to make up the numbers. But if they want to invoke memories of Andrea De Cesaris crashing yet again, that's up to them!

Actually, I don't really see much difference between this and the BMW thing. Yes, people have pointed out that it was still called BMW Sauber, but that was really just a name - they were the BMW team. I don't think many people really thought of them as Sauber at that point. And then Sauber came back as a sort of zombie team after that, so maybe it's best to put them out of their misery.

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#60 FirstWatt

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 13:33

Sad day, as for someone living in Switzerland :(

 

To be clear:

Sauber Motorsport AG is a daughter of Sauber Holding AG, and Sauber Holding AG majority is held by Longbow Capital. Alfa Romeo (or FCA that is) hasn't, to my knowledge, injected capital into Sauber. No reason to call it Alfa Romeo (without Sauber)  purely from that view. And AFAIK Sauber Motorsport AG who runs the team will not change it's name (unlike the BMW era).

But yeah, looks like Marchionne's heritage is being maintained.

 

I expect Kimi (and Giovinazzi) will still be hard pressed to make Ferrari the life easier, during a race if possible (not that it would be something new anyway)



#61 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 13:36

BMW to their credit never did drop the Sauber name from the team. They just dropped the team.

Didn't they only keep the Sauber name because in the Bernie era he made sure it was very difficult to change a constructor name and if you wanted to, it was a reason for him to pocket a lot of the money that you would have otherwise been paid?

#62 taran

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 13:40

Peter Sauber hasn't been in integral part of the team which bears his name for some years...but that doesn't make it any less Sauber.

 

Bittersweet...I'm glad to see Alfa "back" but I'll definitely miss Sauber. Makes sense having Kimi now, in an Alfa-Romeo.

 

Re name changes....Ross Brawn considered calling his team Tyrrell for the title winning 2009 season. Wouildn't that have been fantastic? 

Racing Point will be announcing a new name soon....rumours are it might be one with F1 history....

 

Walter Wolf Racing?

March?

 

I'd almost say "anything is better" but I mustn't underestimate Stroll. 

 



#63 MikeV1987

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 13:44

Inevitable but it’s just a name. It’s not like Peter Sauber is involved anymore anyways.

#64 FirstWatt

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 14:02

Inevitable but it’s just a name. It’s not like Peter Sauber is involved anymore anyways.

Inevitable? Why?

The Company still is named Sauber Motorsport AG, and it would be a sign of respect to the founder, to the actual ownership, to the local people, and to the fan base. It's not just a name. Or would the Ferrari Fanbase be happy if their team is called Chrysler from now on?

But what does that count, anyway, if you can take over Ferrari design for free, and double CFD and Wind Tunnel time for them by co-developing. Maybe that's the reason why it was inevitabe?

 

However, Sauber Holdings and Sauber Motorsport have not been taken over by Alfa Romeo.


Edited by FirstWatt, 01 February 2019 - 14:04.


#65 messy

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 14:08

To be honest, I don't think I'm mourning the loss of the Sauber name as much as I thought I would. I'm used to it. Over my time watching F1 we've lost similarly iconic names from F1 history like Minardi, Jordan, Tyrrell, Ligier, Benetton, Arrows......



#66 TomNokoe

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 14:21

Two pre-season name changes? David Croft is going to crumble.

AND THERE'S THE SAUB-- ALFA MAKING A MOVE ON THE ROMEO-- FORCE IN-- RACING POINT!!!

Edited by TomNokoe, 01 February 2019 - 14:21.


#67 noikeee

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 14:22

I don't know really. The core, i.e. factory and people are still very much Sauber, which is what matters in the end.

Yeah I don't think for example McLaren stopped being McLaren when Bruce passed away. Or Ferrari when Enzo died. Etc.



#68 messy

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 14:25

And the current Renault team has been through so many names most people just call it Enstone! The team is still the same. Personally I think the sport moves on and I quite like the idea of a full Alfa Romeo team. 



#69 FirstWatt

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 14:26

[...]Over my time watching F1 we've lost similarly iconic names from F1 history like Minardi, Jordan, Tyrrell, Ligier, Benetton, Arrows......

True. But that came always when the team was sold. Which is not the case here.

 

I would have understood BMW at that time, if they had dropped the name Sauber, at the end they owned it, AND they substatially contributed to the car. But they did not ditch it. Out of respect.

 

Not so in this case. Like putting a sticker, a badge over it, since Alfa has nothing left of its OWN racing heritage.

 

But it is like it is.



#70 chrisj

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 14:29

Same here.

Sauber is an iconic name in motor-racing, arguably even more so than Alfa Romeo! 

 

WTF?!?!  :rotfl:



#71 PayasYouRace

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 14:49

Didn't they only keep the Sauber name because in the Bernie era he made sure it was very difficult to change a constructor name and if you wanted to, it was a reason for him to pocket a lot of the money that you would have otherwise been paid?


No. They changed the constructor name from “Sauber” to “BMW Sauber”. They could have changed it to BMW or whatever they wanted.

The issue of changing a constructor name had to do with deadlines for when the change could be made without losing WCC earnings. This affected the team in 2010 when they had to run as BMW Sauber even though BMW were no longer involved. They were able to change it for 2011.

#72 Nathan

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 14:56

Alfa Romeo's name in Grand Prix history is much more significant than Sauber's.

 

Peter hasn't been involved in the team since 2016. Peter has two sons that could have taken up the mantle but couldn't or didn't.  Thus the name fades.  Seems appropriate.



#73 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 14:58

What's in a name really?

 

It's like looks in life. Very overrated.

 

Substance over vanity. 

 

If they win a race or make the podium this year because of this nostalgia won't matter.



#74 Neno

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 15:12

This Haas to be it! Another Ferrari B team on the grid.  SMH 


Edited by Neno, 01 February 2019 - 15:15.


#75 Burai

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 15:13

True. But that came always when the team was sold. Which is not the case here.

 

I would have understood BMW at that time, if they had dropped the name Sauber, at the end they owned it, AND they substatially contributed to the car. But they did not ditch it. Out of respect.

 

Not so in this case. Like putting a sticker, a badge over it, since Alfa has nothing left of its OWN racing heritage.

 

But it is like it is.

 

I remember reading that it wasn't so much out of respect but more because it was one of the terms of the sale from Credit Suisse and Peter Sauber. Sauber also retained 20% and was kept on as an advisor.


Edited by Burai, 01 February 2019 - 15:14.


#76 maximilian

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 15:13

Don't worry, the Sauber name will probably be back again after Fiat pulls the plug in a couple of years...



#77 Reynard88D

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 15:26

Grand Prix racing history. Even if Bernie has spent a lifetime in trying to deny it, F1 didn't just start from nothingness in 1950.

 

Little against the change of name. I have always liked the Hinwil team and the Sauber name left a lasting legacy in motorsport history. But Peter is long gone now. Alfa Romeo is still alive. 

 

Completely agree Alfa Romeo was historic Grand Prix cars pre 1950, one of the best David V Goliath victories was Tazio Nuvolari's win in an Alfa in the 1935 German GP versus the might of Merc and Auto union. Great to see the serpent back



#78 DeKnyff

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 15:35

Only 9 seasons in F1, the last being 1985 if I'm not mistaken?

And two World Championships. 



#79 P123

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 15:48

Is this the Ferrari B or C team?

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#80 DeKnyff

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 15:54

I really couldn't care less if the team is named Sauber or Alfa Romeo. It's obvious that it's just a marketing thing and if Sauber can get some extra money for it and become more competitive, so be it.

 

That said, don't be mistaken, Alfa Romeo is a genuinely credible name.



#81 PedroDiCasttro

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 16:02

On another note, does that mean the car will feature a completely revamped livery this season?



#82 noikeee

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 16:11

This Haas to be it! Another Ferrari B team on the grid.  SMH 

Will Buxton, is that you?



#83 DS27

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 16:20

 

Also, if you're going to have a brand at all, what a brand... a company that's always been devoted to producing interesting as opposed to mundane cars.

 

 

You must be talking about the Arna.  I loved that Nissan Alfa!

 

Combining the flair of the Japanese manufacturer with the reliability of the Italians.

 

10.jpg?scale=down


Edited by DS27, 01 February 2019 - 16:22.


#84 shonguiz

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 16:51

I am baffled by this, BMW who ownded the team didn't do it. Alfa is only a sponsor and they drop the name ? I am pretty sure they are not even getting any substantial additional cash this year. Strange move from the swedes.



#85 DeKnyff

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 16:57

You must be talking about the Arna.  I loved that Nissan Alfa!

 

Combining the flair of the Japanese manufacturer with the reliability of the Italians.

 

10.jpg?scale=down

Name a brand which has never produced a dull model.



#86 Talisman

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 16:58

No. They changed the constructor name from “Sauber” to “BMW Sauber”. They could have changed it to BMW or whatever they wanted.

The issue of changing a constructor name had to do with deadlines for when the change could be made without losing WCC earnings. This affected the team in 2010 when they had to run as BMW Sauber even though BMW were no longer involved. They were able to change it for 2011.

I thought that at the time they needed a majority or even unanimous agreement from the other teams to allow a name change. Adding BMW got around this (don’t know why) as long as Sauber stayed in the name as this was a modification and not a change.

When BMW withdrew they couldn’t get unanimous agreement to allow the team to change name again in time and had to race as BMW Sauber Ferrari for a season.

Edited by Talisman, 01 February 2019 - 16:59.


#87 noriaki

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 16:59

I am baffled by this, BMW who ownded the team didn't do it. Alfa is only a sponsor and they drop the name ? I am pretty sure they are not even getting any substantial additional cash this year. Strange move from the swedes.


But then again they dropped the name for Mercedes-Benz in sportscars.

#88 HP

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 17:39

I'm not glad to see Alfa back as Fiat B-team.

Alfa Corse morphed into Ferrari. What will Alfa morph this time into?



#89 cpbell

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 17:41

sad day :(

 

Sauber name gone from Formula 1, decades of racing behind it

 

while Alfa has just handful of seasons to its name

Alfa was in Grand Prix motorsport pre-WWII, well before "Formula 1" appeared.  They pioneered the single-seater GP car, in fact, with the P3 in 1932.



#90 cpbell

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 17:49

Same here.

Sauber is an iconic name in motor-racing, arguably even more so than Alfa Romeo! 

Only someone with minimal knowledge of motorsport history prior to 2000 could have typed that nonsense.  Alfa first compted in the official Grand Prix in 1924, though they should have entered the 1923 Italian GP had their driver not been killed in a testing accident. They dominated the 1925 season, and were in the sport from 1931-1938 in some form, either as the works team Alfa Corse or entered by a certain Enzo Ferrari as Scuderia Ferrari.  If we widen things to all motorsport, we can add multiple Le Mans, Targa Florio and Mille Miglia wins.


Edited by cpbell, 01 February 2019 - 17:50.


#91 FNG

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 17:55

Does this mean they will be leaving Switzerland? Seems odd to keep it there so far away from the centre of racing



#92 Kalmake

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 18:11

Does this mean they will be leaving Switzerland? Seems odd to keep it there so far away from the centre of racing

No. Sauber factory is decent and close to Italy.



#93 absinthedude

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 18:11

Regarding BMW....that company seems to like putting it's name before an existing one....witness "BMW Benetton" in 1986. 

 

I very much doubt the Alfa Romeo team will move from Hinwil in the near future but a move to Italy might eventually happen if Alfa remain around for a few years. 

 

While Sauber is a loss to F1, having been a constant presence in one form or other for 25 years and a big name in sports cars before that.....to claim the Sauber name carries more history than Alfa is to demonstrate a shocking lack of knowledge or initiative to use Google.



#94 PayasYouRace

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 18:26

Regarding BMW....that company seems to like putting it's name before an existing one....witness "BMW Benetton" in 1986.

 

 

 

The team name was Benetton Formula Ltd, the chassis name was Benetton and the constructor name was Benetton-BMW. Don't know where you got that from.



#95 Nathan

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 18:46

What is all this nonsense "oh knoz now they are a B team for Ferrari". Sauber has been their B team since 1996 excluding a handful of seasons.

Alfa is only a sponsor and they drop the name ? I am pretty sure they are not even getting any substantial additional cash this year. Strange move from the swedes.


Sounds like that has changed. Im not sure why its strange. If Alfa is going to take such a risk you have to believe they will commit significant resources.

#96 Sterzo

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 18:54

 

 

Also, if you're going to have a brand at all, what a brand... a company that's always been devoted to producing interesting as opposed to mundane cars.

 

 

 

You must be talking about the Arna.  I loved that Nissan Alfa!

 

Combining the flair of the Japanese manufacturer with the reliability of the Italians.

 

 

It's a fair cop. How about "a company that's nearly always been devoted to producing interesting as opposed to mundane cars."


Edited by Sterzo, 01 February 2019 - 18:54.


#97 GenJackRipper

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 19:00

Indeed, but it's great that Tyrrell have won the last few titles after close battles with Ferrari and Stewart

Haha, quote of the thread. :)


Sad to see Sauber go, but very glad to see Alfa Romeo return in full form.
Would Sauber have turned into something artificial like Force India, I'd complain. But Alfa Romeo? Only happy faces from me.



#98 Nemo1965

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 19:14

Had a strong liking for Sauber (one of my very favourite teams) until Kaltenborn/VdG fiasco and the way Peter Sauber handled it. Couldn't give a monkeys that their gone now.


This.

#99 tormave

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 19:15

To me, Sauber stands for the little team who were about to go bankrupt any day for years. I'm astonished so many people can be butthurt about the name or the uninspired livery going to the F1 history books.

 

Alfa-Romeo cars also were quite meh for decades, but the last couple of years have been exciting with 4C and Giulia. Associating those cars with a F1 team is a great idea. Hopefully they come up with a great color scheme.



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#100 Neno

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 19:25

Will Buxton, is that you?

Nah, but I couldnt let this opportunity to use it.   :lol: