Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 10 votes

Ferrari Technical Thread (SF90)


  • Please log in to reply
5053 replies to this topic

#5001 Claymore25

Claymore25
  • New Member

  • 22 posts
  • Joined: August 19

Posted 08 August 2019 - 12:52

Some of the current issues were caused by Marchionne, Resta to Alfa for instance. And Marchionne is the one who removed James Allison and put Binotto as TD. By most assessments, Marchionne also wanted Binotto to rise to the top (SM's famous horizontal structure). 

 

It's quite possible that the timing of Marchionne's death had more of an impact than his actual passing. When he died, there was no Plan B if Arrivabene left, other than to name Binotto as Team Principal. So, what happened is that when the showdown between Arrivabene and Binotto took place, it was either Arrivabene OR Binotto who was going to be left... i.e. a leader who had either commercial/political abilities OR a good relationship with the people who have technical knowledge, but not one could could combine both.

 

The management (Piero Ferrari and Camilleri) were left with a hard choice and and they made the wrong one IMHO, because Ferrari is still paying from Marchionne chasing Allison away (and the same for di Montezemolo pushing Aldo Costa out). They didn't want the same thing to happen with Binotto, but they've put him in a position that exceeds his leadership abilities, while not allowing him to use the techincal ones he has. 

 

Didn't Allison want to return to England because his wife died or got sick?



Advertisement

#5002 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 10,026 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 08 August 2019 - 13:01

Didn't Allison want to return to England because his wife died or got sick?

It's more complicated than that:

 

https://www.formulap...son-446799.html (in italiano)



#5003 Raest

Raest
  • Member

  • 319 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted 08 August 2019 - 13:20

If we accept that the root cause of Ferrari's problems is the wrong direction the took with the car concept then this has nothing to do with the appointment of Binotto as TD. 

The car design had already been completed when he moved on to his new job. You can blame him, perhaps, as a designer/engineer for getting the concept wrong but the car performance

is not related to him being a TD. I also don't think that ferrari suffered from Allison's departure, as the 17 and 18 cars showed (he had very little influence over the 17 car and none over the 18)

but losing Costa has been a monumental mistake. 


Edited by Raest, 08 August 2019 - 13:23.


#5004 Claymore25

Claymore25
  • New Member

  • 22 posts
  • Joined: August 19

Posted 08 August 2019 - 13:22

It's more complicated than that:

 

https://www.formulap...son-446799.html (in italiano)

 

Thanks. I was in a doubt. That's why I asked.



#5005 CoolBreeze

CoolBreeze
  • Member

  • 1,656 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 08 August 2019 - 16:46

Some of the current issues were caused by Marchionne, Resta to Alfa for instance. And Marchionne is the one who removed James Allison and put Binotto as TD. By most assessments, Marchionne also wanted Binotto to rise to the top (SM's famous horizontal structure). 

 

It's quite possible that the timing of Marchionne's death had more of an impact than his actual passing. When he died, there was no Plan B if Arrivabene left, other than to name Binotto as Team Principal. So, what happened is that when the showdown between Arrivabene and Binotto took place, it was either Arrivabene OR Binotto who was going to be left... i.e. a leader who had either commercial/political abilities OR a good relationship with the people who have technical knowledge, but not one could could combine both.

 

The management (Piero Ferrari and Camilleri) were left with a hard choice and and they made the wrong one IMHO, because Ferrari is still paying from Marchionne chasing Allison away (and the same for di Montezemolo pushing Aldo Costa out). They didn't want the same thing to happen with Binotto, but they've put him in a position that exceeds his leadership abilities, while not allowing him to use the techincal ones he has. 

 

The biggest mistake they made so far was getting rid of Arri. 

 

With Binotto, the team is just running around like headless chickens.



#5006 Raest

Raest
  • Member

  • 319 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted 08 August 2019 - 16:50

The biggest mistake they made so far was getting rid of Arri. 

 

With Binotto, the team is just running around like headless chickens.

Whereas with Arri. the team had a clear sense of direction, the drivers didn't trip each other and the strategy was spot on... 



#5007 tomjol

tomjol
  • Member

  • 815 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 08 August 2019 - 17:06

The biggest mistake they made so far was getting rid of Arri. 

 

With Binotto, the team is just running around like headless chickens.

 

Are you basing this on anything at all other than wild speculation?



#5008 nemanja

nemanja
  • Member

  • 1,168 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 08 August 2019 - 20:08

https://www.f1analis...rd-ferrari.html



#5009 dissident

dissident
  • Member

  • 61 posts
  • Joined: June 19

Posted 08 August 2019 - 20:41

Costa was fired on the back of a Spanish GP at which we were lapped on pure pace after leading the race for the first 18 laps...

 

At the time everyone was calling for his head, as the last truly competitive Ferrari was the F2008.

 

Sound familiar? 



#5010 Unicast

Unicast
  • Member

  • 1,253 posts
  • Joined: April 18

Posted 10 August 2019 - 10:35

Spec 3 coming for Spa: https://it.motorspor...in-piu/4511346/

Hope they worked a bit more on fuel consumption and better management in the race.

Having the strongest PU mode in qualy is nice but it's hurting us in the race.



#5011 ferrarista

ferrarista
  • Member

  • 887 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 10 August 2019 - 11:46

Spec 3 coming for Spa: https://it.motorspor...in-piu/4511346/
Hope they worked a bit more on fuel consumption and better management in the race.
Having the strongest PU mode in qualy is nice but it's hurting us in the race.

we don’t know the fuel they start with, for all we know they could start underfueled to compensate the lack of pace

#5012 guiporsche

guiporsche
  • Member

  • 207 posts
  • Joined: January 17

Posted 10 August 2019 - 12:42

Some of the current issues were caused by Marchionne, Resta to Alfa for instance. And Marchionne is the one who removed James Allison and put Binotto as TD. By most assessments, Marchionne also wanted Binotto to rise to the top (SM's famous horizontal structure). 

 

It's quite possible that the timing of Marchionne's death had more of an impact than his actual passing. When he died, there was no Plan B if Arrivabene left, other than to name Binotto as Team Principal. So, what happened is that when the showdown between Arrivabene and Binotto took place, it was either Arrivabene OR Binotto who was going to be left... i.e. a leader who had either commercial/political abilities OR a good relationship with the people who have technical knowledge, but not one could could combine both.

 

The management (Piero Ferrari and Camilleri) were left with a hard choice and and they made the wrong one IMHO, because Ferrari is still paying from Marchionne chasing Allison away (and the same for di Montezemolo pushing Aldo Costa out). They didn't want the same thing to happen with Binotto, but they've put him in a position that exceeds his leadership abilities, while not allowing him to use the techincal ones he has. 

 

Right after Allison left Ferrari put out its best two cars in years... The main charge against Allison, allegedly (as we only know what one or another insider like Turrini leaks out) was that he was not extracting the potential of Ferrari's engineering depth & was only trusting his few chosen men. This situation probably preceded his terrible personal ordeal. Whether it is true or not, after he left you saw younger people like Sanchez (a Frenchman! something that Antonini conveniently forgets...) or outsiders like Resta & the GT's aero head (whose name I'm forgetting) assuming more responsabilities. Not to say that Jock Clear is English, or that the much maligned Rueda is a Spaniard, or that there's Germans, ex-Merc working on the PU department.

 

It's easy to forget now that when Alisson left, the UK press was rolling with laughter like there was no tomorrow because everyone, literally everyone expected Ferrari in 2017 to be utterly uncompetitive. And of course, everyone was claiming that Marchionne was just a typical Fiat-suit employing decision-making from the auto-industry into F1...

Marchion did only two mistakes, overall; shifting Resta to Alfa at a crucial stage of the '18 season; and firing Sassi, even if the jury is still out on that one: the Ferrari PU is right now at par with Mercedes'.

 

As for Arrivabene... Did he design the cars, did he actually have any technical knowledge at all? Because in current F1 even sporting directors like Horner clearly have a decent tech knowledge. Arrivabene, from what one hears both from Italian journos and English ones simply did not. Moreover, he had a very thorny relation with Marchionne, who hired him to essentially have a yes-man who would put a stop to all the leaks to the press. It was natural that after Marchion passed away he would try to get fully in charge of the team. What his indictment of the team personnel in the '18 Japan GP seems to have showed, IMO, is that the same bruising attitude he had to journalists was common to how he handled his own team personnel. He had to go, to put it simply. And his well known desire to bring someone from the outside, IMO, reminds me of Montezemolo's constant search for the magical foreign ace that at once would turn around the fortunes of the Scuderia (Costa out, marvelous Pat Fry in, ridiculous attempts to bring Newey in, etc, etc).

 

Anyway, with Resta back this whole drama on whether Binotto's shoulders were too heavily burdened is over. Binotto and Ferrari now simply need time & stability. It's ridiculous that every two or three years there are changes in top technical personnel when the tech direction of teams like RB or Merc has been the same, take one leave another, for around ten years... 



#5013 Jape65

Jape65
  • Member

  • 88 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 10 August 2019 - 13:03

Ferrari has the money, the reputation and the tools, but it does not buy to exploit its potential. They make hasty emotional decisions, and sometimes they succeed, but often not. Schumi and jean tod were their lottery winners they didn't realize. Look at the mercedes ... there everything is thought through and everyone can notice the scent.



#5014 guiporsche

guiporsche
  • Member

  • 207 posts
  • Joined: January 17

Posted 10 August 2019 - 13:24

But how 'emotional' Ferrari really is? And what 'emotional' decisions are those? How 'emotional', say, was Mclaren's pathetic matrix system? Not trying to attack anyone here, just trying to question the usual received wisdom, the typical stereotypes: red mist, emotional, or every time Ferrari does not win: 'it is all run by Italians/we can't govern ourselves, they need to bring someone from abroad over'.  As if all teams now were not international in their personnel, their outlook, their suppliers, and their sources of revenue, regardless of whether they are located in the UK or in the continent.

 

There's bad decision making, full stop. In Ferrari's case, IMO, it is still trying to fix the disruption Montezemolo made of Todt & Brawn's inheritance. In a sport like F1, structural decisions have long-term consequences. A decision to refuse or postpone building a new wind tunnel, per instance, like LDM did around 2009, will not put you back 1 season, but potentially 3 to 5. A decision to fire your star tech director, Costa, and bring instead for three years (in which there was a massive regulation change) a comparatively much worse individual will not put you back only one year but instead...

 

Ferrari only needs to look back to its past. From 1962 to 1984, per instance (bar 1973 & only because the Old Man was sick and Fiat took over), the technical director was Forghieri. Newey's cars in 2001-02, the MP4-18 and in 2006-08 were nowhere. And no one thought he had lost his touch. But looking at the state of opinion these days, I wonder what the press would have said if he had designed those duds for Ferrari.


Edited by guiporsche, 10 August 2019 - 13:26.


#5015 Quickshifter

Quickshifter
  • Member

  • 4,287 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 10 August 2019 - 14:25

Ferrari has the benchmark PU. The upcoming spec should push the benchmark even further. The upcoming tracks should suit their package. If they put their weekends together without mistakes and reliability issues they can win both Spa and Monza. Now if you see how they lost Bahrain, Baku and Germany this season would have a totally different complexion without driver errors, strategic mistakes and reliability issues. Even with a chassis that trails in downforce they could have made a much better meal of the ingredients they have had this season.

Edited by Quickshifter, 10 August 2019 - 14:27.


#5016 Hezekiah

Hezekiah
  • Member

  • 171 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 10 August 2019 - 14:56

Spec 3 coming for Spa: https://it.motorspor...in-piu/4511346/
Hope they worked a bit more on fuel consumption and better management in the race.
Having the strongest PU mode in qualy is nice but it's hurting us in the race.


This is why I have some doubts about Ferrari in Spa. I appreciate there arent many slow corners there, but Ferrari's race pace is a step behind its qualifying pace, and while I dont think it will be easy,I wonder if it will be possible for Mercedes and Red Bull to overtake them in the race on hard tyres if Ferrari do start in the lead.

#5017 Unicast

Unicast
  • Member

  • 1,253 posts
  • Joined: April 18

Posted 10 August 2019 - 16:52

This is why I have some doubts about Ferrari in Spa. I appreciate there arent many slow corners there, but Ferrari's race pace is a step behind its qualifying pace, and while I dont think it will be easy,I wonder if it will be possible for Mercedes and Red Bull to overtake them in the race on hard tyres if Ferrari do start in the lead.

 

If our race pace is not good enough for sure it can.



#5018 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 4,963 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 11 August 2019 - 04:31

Whereas with Arri. the team had a clear sense of direction, the drivers didn't trip each other and the strategy was spot on... 

 

I think it was(and now obviously is) the Binotto team that was managing strategy, that is the reason Arrivabene made that declaration in Japan. He wasn't in control.



#5019 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 7,249 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 11 August 2019 - 05:53

There is no Binotto team. Binotto was not in charge of the strategy.

Arrivabene was just fed up by strategy mistakes and make it clear. That's all.

Advertisement

#5020 CoolBreeze

CoolBreeze
  • Member

  • 1,656 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 12 August 2019 - 05:14

Whereas with Arri. the team had a clear sense of direction, the drivers didn't trip each other and the strategy was spot on... 

 

 

Are you basing this on anything at all other than wild speculation?

 

Let's not kid ourselves. Ferrari's strategy were gone case since Brawn left.

 

I'm talking about overall perspective. It's a huge step backwards to put some technical chap in charge of running a team. This year's overall package seems to be one of the worst, or the worst since 2009.



#5021 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 21,958 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 12 August 2019 - 06:59

Let's not kid ourselves. Ferrari's strategy were gone case since Brawn left.

 

I'm talking about overall perspective. It's a huge step backwards to put some technical chap in charge of running a team. This year's overall package seems to be one of the worst, or the worst since 2009.

 

I can understand why you would, but 2014 doesn't go away just by trying to forget it.  ;)



#5022 Unicast

Unicast
  • Member

  • 1,253 posts
  • Joined: April 18

Posted 12 August 2019 - 07:24

After all is said & done, we still need to maximize this year to the maximum, try to get some race wins to help with the morale and make sure we never make the same mistake for next year.

Let's hope that the second part of the championship will finally put an end to the winnig drought which plagued our team recently. 

I hope both our drivers get a few wins in the second part of the season.



#5023 Ramon69

Ramon69
  • Member

  • 897 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 12 August 2019 - 15:22

Ferrari will lose 3rd place in the Drivers' Championship and they will also lose 2nd in the Constructors if Albon will be strong enough to be close to Verstappen in that second Red Bull. 

 

TIP for Ferrari next year: Build a car that can actually turn fast as well, not one that can only be good at drag racing!



#5024 Ramon69

Ramon69
  • Member

  • 897 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 12 August 2019 - 16:43

The next generation of  Mercedes Actros trucks will be faster than the SF90!  :D



#5025 nemanja

nemanja
  • Member

  • 1,168 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 12 August 2019 - 17:26

https://www.f1analis...edes-honda.html



#5026 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 4,963 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 12 August 2019 - 18:38

There is no Binotto team. Binotto was not in charge of the strategy.

Arrivabene was just fed up by strategy mistakes and make it clear. That's all.

 

No  that is not all.  Those were not the words of a boss with power, a boss does not need to talk like that.  That were the words of someone without power to change things,



#5027 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 7,249 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 August 2019 - 18:16

https://www.f1analis...edes-honda.html


Now we know why the car is so slow during the race.. They can't push as much as Mercedes and Honda otherwise they are in trouble fuel wise.

Edited by Massa, 13 August 2019 - 18:17.


#5028 w1Y

w1Y
  • Member

  • 4,264 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 13 August 2019 - 18:56

Now we know why the car is so slow during the race.. They can't push as much as Mercedes and Honda otherwise they are in trouble fuel wise.


Thought this was well speculated already

#5029 Pimpwerx

Pimpwerx
  • Member

  • 1,423 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 13 August 2019 - 19:22

Thought this was well speculated already

I thought so as well, as we saw them slip into severe fuel-saving modes at the end of some races like Baku and Canada. It was also noted that they start with full tanks, compared to Merc, who don't use the full alloted amount of fuel, and don't have to conserve as heavily during the race, being able to push right to the end.



#5030 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 4,952 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 14 August 2019 - 03:31

If we accept that the root cause of Ferrari's problems is the wrong direction the took with the car concept then this has nothing to do with the appointment of Binotto as TD. 

The car design had already been completed when he moved on to his new job. You can blame him, perhaps, as a designer/engineer for getting the concept wrong but the car performance

is not related to him being a TD. I also don't think that ferrari suffered from Allison's departure, as the 17 and 18 cars showed (he had very little influence over the 17 car and none over the 18)

but losing Costa has been a monumental mistake. 

 

This is heavily flawed.

 

Binotto became TD (CTO in Ferrari parlace) in July of 2016.  That means the low-drag concept of the 2019 car was approved by Binotto. So if we conclude the low downforce route was a mistake, and all F1 design logic over the past 50 years says it is, then going down that route is on Binotto.

 

The car performance is absolutely related to the TD. He has the final say in what paths they take, how resources are allocated, and most importantly perhaps what staff is responsible for doing what.

 

I coach "grid iron" football in Canada.  Last season the coach in charge of the offence decide we were going to use tactics not suited to the type of players we had.  He had a complex system that was impossible for our rookie quarterback to understand. The plays he used copied from American football which is very different from Canadian football.  Last season we started 0-3.  There wasn't a game where the opponents scored less than 50 points scored against us, and there wasn't a game we scored more than 9.  Our defence was always very tired because they always had to be on the field.  We had the week off after our 3rd game and the after that game that coach was let go.

His replacement changed the tactics to suit our players strengths and weaknesses.  He introduced simplified passing plays where the quarterback only had to make an A or B decision.  He let the position coaches decide how he should best use their players.  The result?  We didn't win any games, but no team ever scored 40 points on us again, and every game we scored at least 20.  The defence didn't have to spend so much time on the field and could perform the whole game.  Now yes, success is measured by wins, but those last 3 teams we lost to finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd.  The players were the same, the assistant coaches were the same, but team performed very differently.  That was all down to the direction of one person, the guy on top.



#5031 AmonGods

AmonGods
  • Member

  • 726 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 14 August 2019 - 05:02

This is heavily flawed.

 

Binotto became TD (CTO in Ferrari parlace) in July of 2016.  That means the low-drag concept of the 2019 car was approved by Binotto. So if we conclude the low downforce route was a mistake, and all F1 design logic over the past 50 years says it is, then going down that route is on Binotto.

 

The car performance is absolutely related to the TD. He has the final say in what paths they take, how resources are allocated, and most importantly perhaps what staff is responsible for doing what.

 

I coach "grid iron" football in Canada.  Last season the coach in charge of the offence decide we were going to use tactics not suited to the type of players we had.  He had a complex system that was impossible for our rookie quarterback to understand. The plays he used copied from American football which is very different from Canadian football.  Last season we started 0-3.  There wasn't a game where the opponents scored less than 50 points scored against us, and there wasn't a game we scored more than 9.  Our defence was always very tired because they always had to be on the field.  We had the week off after our 3rd game and the after that game that coach was let go.

His replacement changed the tactics to suit our players strengths and weaknesses.  He introduced simplified passing plays where the quarterback only had to make an A or B decision.  He let the position coaches decide how he should best use their players.  The result?  We didn't win any games, but no team ever scored 40 points on us again, and every game we scored at least 20.  The defence didn't have to spend so much time on the field and could perform the whole game.  Now yes, success is measured by wins, but those last 3 teams we lost to finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd.  The players were the same, the assistant coaches were the same, but team performed very differently.  That was all down to the direction of one person, the guy on top.

 

Man, your team really sucks   :p



#5032 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 4,952 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 14 August 2019 - 16:18

Yup.  We are the smallest high school and to make it worse a private school that caters to academics.  Violin players and mathematicians don't make for great football players.  Our offensive line avg weight was 60 something pounds down on the rest of the teams.  Often some of our best players are Chinese kids that never seen football before they came (the secret sauce is they are often 2 years older than the Canadian kids in the same grade). 



#5033 tomjol

tomjol
  • Member

  • 815 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 14 August 2019 - 16:51

I'll accept that Binotto may be responsible for the low-drag concept, but it would be a mistake to turn that into "he's no good". They were making a bet based on things which were known at the time - the formula has changed again this year (which they couldn't have anticipated) and the low drag philosophy served them well last year.

 

For me the most essential thing to do is leave the situation alone and let it bed in, properly, over a number of years. It's a big ask to put a technical manager in charge of the whole enterprise but a calm, engineering-style, approach may be exactly what's required when the team has traditionally been blown in one direction then another by the writings of the Italian media.

 

Yes, that's a risk. Guess what, there's no reward without it.



#5034 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 4,952 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 14 August 2019 - 18:33

Not every risk carries with it a meaningful reward.  The number of tracks that reward low but efficient downforce only needs one hand to count. Maybe they under estimated their power surplus to Mercedes? More and more I wonder if their tire simulation tools are off.



#5035 Claymore25

Claymore25
  • New Member

  • 22 posts
  • Joined: August 19

Posted 14 August 2019 - 20:07

I think Ferrari subestimate the changes for this year and the power engine would be enough. A big mistake? Yes. Now, they have the chance to change for 2020, they just need to be calm.



#5036 Albertino

Albertino
  • Member

  • 398 posts
  • Joined: March 18

Posted 15 August 2019 - 01:59

The low drag concept was chosen as a way to be easier on the tires, but adjusting for a moving target (no pun intended) can be difficult and they missed the mark a bit. Sliding on the tyres is worse than running them too hard into the ground via downforce b/c in the latter scenario the temperature is more uniform throughout. 

 

If Ferrari took a conservative approach we'd be criticizing them for that instead. In the last few years Pirelli constantly changed the tire pressures in the interest of safety or whatever and the performance of the car waffled about. 

 

If they had more clean weekends by fewer driver errors, reliability, and strategy mishaps then the season wouldn't seem so bad with 0 wins. 



#5037 warp

warp
  • Member

  • 1,140 posts
  • Joined: November 13

Posted 15 August 2019 - 02:46

The low drag concept was chosen as a way to be easier on the tires, but adjusting for a moving target (no pun intended) can be difficult and they missed the mark a bit. Sliding on the tyres is worse than running them too hard into the ground via downforce b/c in the latter scenario the temperature is more uniform throughout. 

 

If Ferrari took a conservative approach we'd be criticizing them for that instead. In the last few years Pirelli constantly changed the tire pressures in the interest of safety or whatever and the performance of the car waffled about. 

 

If they had more clean weekends by fewer driver errors, reliability, and strategy mishaps then the season wouldn't seem so bad with 0 wins. 

 

The low drag concept was tried by Williams in 2014 and found to be not the ideal solution. It sort of worked for Williams as they had the ridiculous powerful Mercedes PU, but it was clear that the concept was not the best if you wanted the WCC. I find it weird that Ferrari went this way and probably underestimated how much Mercedes could do with their concept.

 

Agreed that we'd be criticizing anyways! Unfortunately, it's human nature and they'll keep getting flak until they get it right. As mentioned by someone earlier in the thread, Ferrari is the one in the position of having to try things to get competitive and that doesn't always works.



#5038 femi

femi
  • Member

  • 7,368 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:14

If the numbers predicted in their simulations were accurately met on track - which I doubt because Vettel said the numbers achieved at Barcelona test were superior to expectations - they can design next year's car with higher degree of confidence. If not, then they have to fix their simulation tools first otherwise, they may not know actually know what they have produced until racing starts. It might just be deja vu



#5039 ferrarista

ferrarista
  • Member

  • 887 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:17

The concept they have chosen apparently would have worked well with the tyres they tested at the Abu Dhabi test but it doesn’t work well with the tyres Pirelli decided to change afterwards for 2019, this is what Binotto hinted at but it’s conveniently forgotten as it’s funnier to bash Ferrari and everyone works there and depict them as idiots. This is why they wanted the 2018 tyres back.

Advertisement

#5040 ferrarista

ferrarista
  • Member

  • 887 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:22

Now we know why the car is so slow during the race.. They can't push as much as Mercedes and Honda otherwise they are in trouble fuel wise.

yes, apparently it’s a case that they have miscalculated the cooling requirements of the PU and they can’t push the hybrid in the race as they can in quali, in fact they can’t also use the high performance CE for the same reason.

Taking into account this and that they will have also reacted with a higher DF concept for 2020, I see a lot of room for improvement in 2020, unless Pirelli changes again the tyre spec.

#5041 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 31,953 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:24

The concept they have chosen apparently would have worked well with the tyres they tested at the Abu Dhabi test but it doesn’t work well with the tyres Pirelli decided to change afterwards for 2019, this is what Binotto hinted at but it’s conveniently forgotten as it’s funnier to bash Ferrari and everyone works there and depict them as idiots. This is why they wanted the 2018 tyres back.

Not true.

Binotto said that when they tested the 2019 tyres (the ones that are used now) in Abu Dhabi they had no issues due to the track layout and temperatures. If the test was somewhere else they would have realized their issues, which then did happen in Barcelona in february. But they are underestimated it due to theor dominance there.

#5042 ferrarista

ferrarista
  • Member

  • 887 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:31

Not true.

Binotto said that when they tested the 2019 tyres (the ones that are used now) in Abu Dhabi they had no issues due to the track layout and temperatures. If the test was somewhere else they would have realized their issues, which then did happen in Barcelona in february. But they are underestimated it due to theor dominance there.

He also said the tyre spec changed, I will find the quote

#5043 tomjol

tomjol
  • Member

  • 815 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:38

yes, apparently it’s a case that they have miscalculated the cooling requirements of the PU and they can’t push the hybrid in the race as they can in quali, in fact they can’t also use the high performance CE for the same reason.

Taking into account this and that they will have also reacted with a higher DF concept for 2020, I see a lot of room for improvement in 2020, unless Pirelli changes again the tyre spec.

 

Cooling being the problem doesn't really fit with the pattern we've seen at hotter races, Hungary excluded.



#5044 ferrarista

ferrarista
  • Member

  • 887 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:43

Cooling being the problem doesn't really fit with the pattern we've seen at hotter races, Hungary excluded.

https://www.f1analis...edes-honda.html

#5045 ferrarista

ferrarista
  • Member

  • 887 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:58

@ Marklar

https://www.formulap...oni-437648.html

https://it.motorspor...notto-/4394627/

yes, the tyre spec didn’t change after the test in Abu Dhabi, but when they tested it the 2019 project was already finished so it was too late to rectify it; the point still stands that apparently they didn’t expect the tyre to change so much for 2019.

https://www.formulap...are-443573.html

Edited by ferrarista, 15 August 2019 - 10:06.


#5046 TomNokoe

TomNokoe
  • Member

  • 19,451 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 15 August 2019 - 10:08

I think Ferrari subestimate the changes for this year and the power engine would be enough. A big mistake? Yes. Now, they have the chance to change for 2020, they just need to be calm.

Changing philosophy to low-drag when downforce was already being taken off the car via 2019 regs, instead of trying to recoup all of the lost downforce, seems a bizarre decision in hindsight.

But Ferrari seem to have made strides recently and don't seem as lost or slow as they did. The car has plenty of solid fundamentals.

Arguably it is easier to find points of downforce rather than horsepower ...

Edited by TomNokoe, 15 August 2019 - 10:08.


#5047 Whatisvalis

Whatisvalis
  • Member

  • 1,109 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 15 August 2019 - 10:44

@ Marklar

https://www.formulap...oni-437648.html

https://it.motorspor...notto-/4394627/

yes, the tyre spec didn’t change after the test in Abu Dhabi, but when they tested it the 2019 project was already finished so it was too late to rectify it; the point still stands that apparently they didn’t expect the tyre to change so much for 2019.

https://www.formulap...are-443573.html

 

What? With everyone complaining about needing tyres you could push on, and in a season where Pirelli needed a special design for 3 races because the 18 spec wasn't good enough?

 

Ferrari have been surprisingly open with what's gone wrong - but the idea they would stake such a radical performance concept on a Pirelli gamble is ridiculous.



#5048 Claymore25

Claymore25
  • New Member

  • 22 posts
  • Joined: August 19

Posted 15 August 2019 - 12:54

Changing philosophy to low-drag when downforce was already being taken off the car via 2019 regs, instead of trying to recoup all of the lost downforce, seems a bizarre decision in hindsight.

But Ferrari seem to have made strides recently and don't seem as lost or slow as they did. The car has plenty of solid fundamentals.

Arguably it is easier to find points of downforce rather than horsepower ...

 

I agree.



#5049 ferrarista

ferrarista
  • Member

  • 887 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 16 August 2019 - 10:19

https://it.motorspor...impression=true

#5050 Raest

Raest
  • Member

  • 319 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted 16 August 2019 - 15:52

This is heavily flawed.

 

Binotto became TD (CTO in Ferrari parlace) in July of 2016.  That means the low-drag concept of the 2019 car was approved by Binotto. So if we conclude the low downforce route was a mistake, and all F1 design logic over the past 50 years says it is, then going down that route is on Binotto.

 

The car performance is absolutely related to the TD. He has the final say in what paths they take, how resources are allocated, and most importantly perhaps what staff is responsible for doing what.

 

I coach "grid iron" football in Canada.  Last season the coach in charge of the offence decide we were going to use tactics not suited to the type of players we had.  He had a complex system that was impossible for our rookie quarterback to understand. The plays he used copied from American football which is very different from Canadian football.  Last season we started 0-3.  There wasn't a game where the opponents scored less than 50 points scored against us, and there wasn't a game we scored more than 9.  Our defence was always very tired because they always had to be on the field.  We had the week off after our 3rd game and the after that game that coach was let go.

His replacement changed the tactics to suit our players strengths and weaknesses.  He introduced simplified passing plays where the quarterback only had to make an A or B decision.  He let the position coaches decide how he should best use their players.  The result?  We didn't win any games, but no team ever scored 40 points on us again, and every game we scored at least 20.  The defence didn't have to spend so much time on the field and could perform the whole game.  Now yes, success is measured by wins, but those last 3 teams we lost to finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd.  The players were the same, the assistant coaches were the same, but team performed very differently.  That was all down to the direction of one person, the guy on top.

I struggled to understand where your disagreement was and then I realised that I'd made a small, but crucial, mistake in my post. I meant Team Director not Technical Director but should have used TP (Team Principal).