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Ferrari Technical Thread (SF90)


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#5301 hunfun

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 10:39

 

So Ferrari deliberately chose development policy against Vettel's driving style.Cool.No wonder he always spins. :well:



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#5302 derstatic

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 12:30

Doesn't make much sense and it's completely the opposite what Red Bull did in 2010-2013. RB designed a car with massive downforce, despite having a weaker engine, put it on pole and pulled away with cornering speeds and tyre life. Ferrari have been in the sport long enough to know that downforce is what you need. And if you have more engine power than the opposition you can pile on even more downforce and still be fine on the straights.



#5303 rodlamas

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 15:42

So Ferrari deliberately chose development policy against Vettel's driving style.Cool.No wonder he always spins. :well:

No, the chose a concept. Unfortunately for them it backfired. 



#5304 MikeV1987

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 16:38

Hopefully they can take what they have learned from the past 3 seasons and make a good package for 2020, they have a hard time finding the perfect balance of speed and downforce where as Merc had great all-rounders since the start of these regulations. In 17' their car seemed more focused on downforce rather than top speed and they were only fastest at a handfull of the niche tracks. They found a good balance in the first half of 2018 but sort of went stagnant in the second half. Now this years car is seemingly opposite of the 17' car. :well:


Edited by MikeV1987, 14 September 2019 - 16:41.


#5305 Marklar

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 16:58

Probably the 2017 car with this years engine is the way to go

#5306 Ice1Fan

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 18:17

Man, you guys are funny with these hard predictions, so brutal with the car.  Makes no sense to me, for a team that has patiently endured almost 10 years of a driver like Kimi which almost never maxed out the car technically  the majority of the time, you guys sure are hard on the machine itself.

 

You meant to say, 'For a team that has ruined almost every opportunity to ruin Kimi's good races to bad ones with an inferior race strategy' ? If that's what you meant then yes, the almost 10 years, Ferrari weren't able to get the best potential of their driver. :mad: :wave:

It's not Kimi's fault, he became a champion when the team backed him.

None of your Alonsos and Vettels have that. :cat:



#5307 Shade

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 18:31

The 2017 car was a good foundation. But I think Ferrari got baited when in 2018 they went for more top speed and had better results, so they thought that's the way to go. 



#5308 kernel

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 20:54

Probably the 2017 car with this years engine is the way to go


The 2018 car was more aero efficient though

#5309 shure

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 21:15

You meant to say, 'For a team that has ruined almost every opportunity to ruin Kimi's good races to bad ones with an inferior race strategy' ? If that's what you meant then yes, the almost 10 years, Ferrari weren't able to get the best potential of their driver. :mad: :wave:

It's not Kimi's fault, he became a champion when the team backed him.

None of your Alonsos and Vettels have that. :cat:

There is an element of that, for sure.  But Kimi also has to shoulder much of the blame for simply not rising to the occasion a lot of the time.  Ferrari could undoubtedly have done more for him, but Kimi was hardly a passenger and these guys get paid the (very) big bucks to deliver.  Sadly Kimi didn't do that all that often



#5310 Enzoluis

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 01:36

No, the chose a concept. Unfortunately for them it backfired.


The original SF90, the one presented at Bercelona was designed for a more powerfull engine that showed reliability issues and a suspension system that allowed the car to bend in strights. The suspension also failed. So the SF90 become a supermarket trolley.
The mistery is why they didn’t try to fix it or make a version B. They seem to have gived up already in Barcelona. The first step in the right direction was the evo3 of the engine at Monza. Unbeliveable.

#5311 Unicast

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 19:09

For those of you expecting something very different next year... well, Binotto states otherwise:

 

The new car will not be very different from today, we will continue to favor aerodynamics when we are faced with a compromise. We must not change the forms or the concept ... it is only a question of increasing rhythm and development ".

 

Link: https://www.f1analis...html?refresh_ce



#5312 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 19:21

So Ferrari deliberately chose development policy against Vettel's driving style.Cool.

 

The driver should adapt to the car.  Leclerc has no problem with it. 


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 September 2019 - 19:30.


#5313 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 19:30

For those of you expecting something very different next year... well, Binotto states otherwise:

 

The new car will not be very different from today, we will continue to favor aerodynamics when we are faced with a compromise. We must not change the forms or the concept ... it is only a question of increasing rhythm and development ".

 

Link: https://www.f1analis...html?refresh_ce

 

 

I think the concept is fine.  Ferrari sits solidly in the middle of the pack for wheelbase and rake.  :up:

 

McLaren are doing very well, relatively, with a very similar concept -- almost identical wheelbase and rake.  I guess Ferrari have the data for Alfa Romeo who have a longer wheelbase, similar to Mercedes, so they can consider that if they think it will help.  The other alternative is to go for a Red Bull design with shorter wheelbase and more downforce and drag.  There is no free lunch!

 

Mercedes are the outlier with their radical long wheelbase, low rake, but high downforce/drag car.  In just one season (2020) can Ferrari really match and beat Mercedes' knowledge of this concept!?  It does not seem logical to change to this concept.

 

Ps9HkZL.jpg

https://maxf1.net/en...-and-rake-data/

 

No, the chose a concept. Unfortunately for them it backfired. 

 

How so? It is faster than 7 rival designs. It is not a bad car by any means.

 

 

They should have won 5 races (Bahrain, Montreal, Spielberg*, Spa, Monza) and could have won two more (Baku, Hockenheim). Problem is just that they had zero chances to win the other 7. 

 

So what?  Why the pressure to win!?  Why not enjoy having a strong top 3 car and being on the attack, just as Red Bull enjoys it.  :up:


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 September 2019 - 19:37.


#5314 FastnLoud

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 10:29

https://www.auto-mot...-f1-2019-trick/

this popping up again

#5315 Astandahl

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 10:50

Here we go again with bullisht articles.

 

They didn't say anything for months because Ferrari wasn't able to win a single race and now they are back with the usual " Ferrari is cheating ".



#5316 Ivanhoe

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 10:53

Here we go again with bullisht articles.
 
They didn't say anything for months because Ferrari wasn't able to win a single race and now they are back with the usual " Ferrari is cheating ".

They’re just reporting paddock rumours, don’t blame the meesenger.

#5317 1Devil1

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 10:56

 

You have a lead driver that likes a stable rear and a great engine. And would do you? Build a straight line monster. Why not a 2017 concept with this engine? Downforce was always the way to go, if you have a good engine on top, great! I see no reason why Ferrari went with this concept also when you have someone like Vettel with his known preferences. 



#5318 Marklar

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 11:21

Binotto keeps claiming that he would have done this differently had he known how the tyres are but I dont think it's that. I cant remember that a car that has so little downforce ever won the title, regardless of the tyres. Even when the tyres were absolute junk for Red Bull in 2012 their downforce still made it the best car in the field, same for Mercedes on some occasions in the last couple of years.

I think it's more that with the new front wing regulations it is very difficult to balance your car without sacrifying front downforce. Just look at the concepts: most of the field went more to the Ferrari direction than to the Mercedes direction. And it initially looked like that is the way to go. Mercedes so to speak went for the riskier approach with their concept and won.

Which is why I dont really get why Ferrari is not at least trying to copy the Mercedes or at least the Red Bull approach (perhaps - as many suspected - you can only really perfect it over low rake): This year was the perfect opportunity to try it out. Nothing to lose. Even if you dont manage to get exactly the same performance out of this you still have the best engine of the field to offset that. We'll see next year if sticking to their current concept and just adjusting it will be the way to go, but I do have my doubts.



#5319 Goron3

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 11:32

You have a lead driver that likes a stable rear and a great engine. And would do you? Build a straight line monster. Why not a 2017 concept with this engine? Downforce was always the way to go, if you have a good engine on top, great! I see no reason why Ferrari went with this concept also when you have someone like Vettel with his known preferences. 

Rumours from Italy suggest that this is what is coming next year.



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#5320 Jovanotti

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 11:43

You have a lead driver that likes a stable rear and a great engine. And would do you? Build a straight line monster. Why not a 2017 concept with this engine? Downforce was always the way to go, if you have a good engine on top, great! I see no reason why Ferrari went with this concept also when you have someone like Vettel with his known preferences.

I think the 2018 car was the golden middle and was absolutely capable to take the title fight to the line. A simple evolution adapted to the new rules and this year's great engine would have given Mercedes a very hard time.

Edited by Jovanotti, 16 September 2019 - 12:51.


#5321 nemanja

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 11:45

Popping what...? Everybody knows Ferrari has something special on the engine side. And nobody is able to detect what it is. And it is legal. Hats off to the engine guys in Maranello.


Edited by nemanja, 16 September 2019 - 11:45.


#5322 rodlamas

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 12:01

Popping what...? Everybody knows Ferrari has something special on the engine side. And nobody is able to detect what it is. And it is legal. Hats off to the engine guys in Maranello.


Easy. Hire 4-5 engine specialists from Ferrari and get things going. Easy.

#5323 ferrarista

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 12:48

Popping what...? Everybody knows Ferrari has something special on the engine side. And nobody is able to detect what it is. And it is legal. Hats off to the engine guys in Maranello.

it’s Ferrari, with italian spaghetti culture, so there must be something illegal 😂

Oh wait, Iotti designed a V8 engine that won every world prize for some years 😁 https://vimeo.com/169865984

#5324 Astandahl

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 13:05

They’re just reporting what Mercedes said them to report, don’t blame the meesenger.

Fixed :rotfl: :clap:


Edited by Astandahl, 16 September 2019 - 13:06.


#5325 Ivanhoe

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 13:09

Fixed :rotfl: :clap:


And Red Bull ;-)

#5326 Frank

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 14:08

Here we go again with bullisht articles.

 

They didn't say anything for months because Ferrari wasn't able to win a single race and now they are back with the usual " Ferrari is cheating ".

Exactly. When Ferrari is not winning races, they do not even bother to speculate and now they are back to the rumor mills.



#5327 BRK

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 14:25

Rumours from Italy suggest that this is what is coming next year.

 

Any sources? 



#5328 Marklar

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 14:31

Here we go again with bullisht articles.
 
They didn't say anything for months because Ferrari wasn't able to win a single race and now they are back with the usual " Ferrari is cheating ".

 

Exactly. When Ferrari is not winning races, they do not even bother to speculate and now they are back to the rumor mills.

Perhaps you should read more carefully. AMuS is pointing this out pretty much every week in their live ticker and as side notes in their articles. They just made a story now because this advantage apparently increased in Monza and they can now use something similar to this to defend in the race, which they previously couldnt.

Also Wolff hinted last week that they may figured it out, so naturally there will be some rumours around.
 

Rumours from Italy suggest that this is what is coming next year.

Binotto says otherwise


Edited by Marklar, 16 September 2019 - 14:33.


#5329 Astandahl

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 14:53

Perhaps you should read more carefully. AMuS is pointing this out pretty much every week in their live ticker and as side notes in their articles. They just made a story now because this advantage apparently increased in Monza and they can now use something similar to this to defend in the race, which they previously couldnt.

Also Wolff hinted last week that they may figured it out, so naturally there will be some rumours around.
 

Binotto says otherwise

First of all writing side notes on a live ticker is extremely different from writing a specif article pointing out that Ferrari is doing something "special" or that there is a "hidden trick " that even FIA doesn't know.

 

Just to remind everyone Ferrari has just barely won in SPA and Monza. In the first race Leclerc won by just 0.8s with a massive help from his team mate and in Monza again he won under 1s defending the first place for 50 laps.

They did the same thing last year in Germany and SPA when Ferrari was really competitive but then they stopped talking about it because Mercedes was winning every race without even trying.



#5330 Marklar

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 15:07

First of all writing side notes on a live ticker is extremely different from writing a specif article pointing out that Ferrari is doing something "special" or that there is a "hidden trick " that even FIA doesn't know.

 

Just to remind everyone Ferrari has just barely won in SPA and Monza. In the first race Leclerc won by just 0.8s with a massive help from his team mate and in Monza again he won under 1s defending the first place for 50 laps.

They did the same thing last year in Germany and SPA when Ferrari was really competitive but then they stopped talking about it because Mercedes was winning every race without even trying.

Exactly, as long as there was nothing new to report they just kept it to side notes, but now due to the Spec 3 upgrades new things emerged, so why the hell shouldnt they report this? Because some fans are too sensitive?



#5331 FastnLoud

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 15:13

Personally think Ferrari are cheating on the engine side with the ers and have just found a way to hide it. Charlie made sure new sensors were put on last year and suddenly the Ferrari lost its speed and teams weren’t noticing this crazy spike. I have no idea what’s monitored this year or how Ferrari are 50bhp better off than most teams.

#5332 Astandahl

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 15:13

Exactly, as long as there was nothing new to report they just kept it to side notes, but now due to the Spec 3 upgrades new things emerged, so why the hell shouldnt they report this? Because some fans are too sensitive?

The Spec 3 has more or less same power of Spec 2. It should be more efficient but we have to wait in track where you have to do a lot of fuel saving ( Monza is easy on fuel consumption ).

 

They can report what the hell they want. It's the approach to that specific  reporting that doesn't make any sense to me ( "trick" , "mistery power" etc ) . Ferrari engine is working the same way it did last year with also the same modes , at least the one used in the race when we have team radios available.


Edited by Astandahl, 16 September 2019 - 15:14.


#5333 Marklar

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 15:20

They can report what the hell they want. It's the approach to that specific  reporting that doesn't make any sense to me ( "trick" , "mistery power" etc ) . Ferrari engine is working the same way it did last year with also the same modes , at least the one used in the race when we have team radios available.

Trick in German has a very different nuance than in English. Trick doesnt mean cheating, it means having a brilliant idea.



#5334 TomNokoe

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 15:26

Personally think Ferrari are cheating on the engine side with the ers and have just found a way to hide it. Charlie made sure new sensors were put on last year and suddenly the Ferrari lost its speed and teams weren’t noticing this crazy spike. I have no idea what’s monitored this year or how Ferrari are 50bhp better off than most teams.

Who cares :clap:



#5335 FastnLoud

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 15:36

Who cares :clap:


True they won’t win a word championship for the next 20 years so let them get on with it I guess

#5336 ferrarista

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 15:59

True they won’t win a word championship for the next 20 years so let them get on with it I guess

hater unmasked :down:



#5337 ferrarista

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 16:03

Ferrari has a power adv but it's not even close to 55bhp, they also have a slippery car, so their superior straightline speed is certainly in part due to lower drag.



#5338 Celloman

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 16:10

Doesn't make much sense and it's completely the opposite what Red Bull did in 2010-2013. RB designed a car with massive downforce, despite having a weaker engine, put it on pole and pulled away with cornering speeds and tyre life. Ferrari have been in the sport long enough to know that downforce is what you need. And if you have more engine power than the opposition you can pile on even more downforce and still be fine on the straights.

It's not that simple. Downforce was what you needed in 2010-2013 when aero had been reduced massively following the 2009 rule changes. However, the rule change of 2017 changed things quite dramatically. Cars became 20 cm wider, which added a lot of inherent dragginess on straights. It meant the name of the game became aero efficiency much more than just plain downforce. You can ask McLaren how much their high downforce concept helped them in 2017-2018. It only made the car quick on tracks like Mexico with minimal air resistance, everywhere else they lost out too much on the straights to compensate for their cornering speeds.

 

IMO Ferrari was on the right track with the idea to focus on aero efficiency, as they were actually behind Mercedes in straight line speeds in 2017 almost everywhere and could only challenge them on tracks like Monaco, Hungaroring and Singapore. 2018 proved that this was the right move. Problem was, in 2019 there was again a slight rule change, which reduced downforce. Instead of clawing the lost downforce back, it seems Ferrari went a notch further in their concept to find even more straight line speed. Now obviously this was the turning point and their loss in corners actually outweighed the advantage gained on straights.

 

But anyway, it's definitely not as simple as just adding more downforce with these draggy cars.


Edited by Celloman, 16 September 2019 - 19:11.


#5339 CoolBreeze

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 16:11

Was Rory Byrne involved in any of the last 2-3 years car?

 

I only mentioned this because of this though 

 

 

:clap:



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#5340 Shade

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 17:37

Personally think Ferrari are cheating on the engine side with the ers and have just found a way to hide it. Charlie made sure new sensors were put on last year and suddenly the Ferrari lost its speed and teams weren’t noticing this crazy spike. I have no idea what’s monitored this year or how Ferrari are 50bhp better off than most teams.

Yes, Ferrari are cheating.



#5341 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 20:25

You have a lead driver that likes a stable rear and a great engine. And would do you? 

 

Leclerc is the lead driver.  The 2020 car needs to be based on what he wants. 

 

 

Was Rory Byrne involved in any of the last 2-3 years car?

 

Retired, no? 


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 16 September 2019 - 20:26.


#5342 1Devil1

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 22:28

Leclerc is the lead driver.  The 2020 car needs to be based on what he wants. 

 

 

My question was regarding this year, your comment makes no sense. But as usual Vettel bashing. 



#5343 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 22:48

My question was regarding this year, your comment makes no sense. But as usual Vettel bashing. 

 

The removal of outwash front wings make all the cars more unstable in the rear, as the front tyre wake management is reduced.  It is up to the drivers to drive better!

 

Ferrari already have one of the most aggressive outwash front wing designs, trading off downforce in exchange for front tyre wake management to improve rear end stability, there is nothing more than can do.

 

Leclerc's technique seems to handle the car just fine, as usual the other team driver can study the data to find where they can make improvements to match their teammate.  :up:


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 16 September 2019 - 22:49.


#5344 baddog

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 23:14

Its amazing that nothing in that post is correct. Ferrari actively went down a design route different to others but according to you 'nothing more they can do'. 'Leclerc handles it fine' when with the best engine they are now barely ahead of the third team and not even close to being able to challenge for the title, just compete for a win on the handful of circuits that suit them.



#5345 Enzoluis

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 00:57

Yes, Ferrari are cheating.


If a team is cheating is because this complicated regulations difficult to be scrutined. F1 authorities are happy with this rules, because they allow to fix championships or like this case allows to put a little of interest in the second half of a championship already defined after .the first race.

#5346 Celloman

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 01:11

Its amazing that nothing in that post is correct. Ferrari actively went down a design route different to others but according to you 'nothing more they can do'. 'Leclerc handles it fine' when with the best engine they are now barely ahead of the third team and not even close to being able to challenge for the title, just compete for a win on the handful of circuits that suit them.

I think he meant there is nothing much they can do to magically make the car suit Vettel better in 2020 under the current regulations.



#5347 Wuzak

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 02:11

Yes, Ferrari are cheating.

 

Obviously not well enough!



#5348 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 02:19

Its amazing that nothing in that post is correct. Ferrari actively went down a design route different to others but according to you 'nothing more they can do'. 'Leclerc handles it fine' when with the best engine they are now barely ahead of the third team and not even close to being able to challenge for the title, just compete for a win on the handful of circuits that suit them.

 

There is nothing wrong with that, Ferrari and Red Bull are both exciting challenger teams.  They already doing well to be in the top three fastest cars.  :up:

 

If Ferrari want a benchmark on if they have the best engine, I guess they could supply Red Bull, then they would have a perspective on how alternate chassis concepts work with their engine? :)

 

 

Ferrari actively went down a design route different to others

 

Must disagree.  The McLaren, Toro Rosso and Alfa Romeo are all similar to the Ferrari.  It is a very valid path that Ferrari choose.  A path taken by nearly half the grid.  :eek:


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 17 September 2019 - 02:28.


#5349 baddog

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 02:29

There is nothing wrong with that, Ferrari and Red Bull are both exciting challenger teams.  They already doing well to be in the top three fastest cars.  :up:

 

Fantasy land stuff where Ferrari are or should be happy to be someone's support act. Losing is NEVER the aim, its a failure.



#5350 baddog

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 02:29

 

Must disagree.  The McLaren, Toro Rosso and Alfa Romeo are all similar to the Ferrari.  It is a very valid path that Ferrari choose.  A path taken by nearly half the grid.  :eek:

And look at them all chasing the championship?

 

Oh wait