Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 10 votes

Ferrari Technical Thread (SF90)


  • Please log in to reply
5396 replies to this topic

#5351 Frank

Frank
  • Member

  • 362 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 17 September 2019 - 02:47

Exactly, as long as there was nothing new to report they just kept it to side notes, but now due to the Spec 3 upgrades new things emerged, so why the hell shouldnt they report this? Because some fans are too sensitive?

Now I know any team with a more powerful engine to Mercs are tricks and mystery.


Edited by Frank, 17 September 2019 - 02:50.


Advertisement

#5352 Baddoer

Baddoer
  • Member

  • 2,213 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 17 September 2019 - 05:27

Indeed. This power unit is completely ridiculous. Even with DRS and slipstream Hamilton can't close up on Leclear at main straight in Monza.



#5353 Counterbalance

Counterbalance
  • Member

  • 994 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 17 September 2019 - 06:28

My question was regarding this year, your comment makes no sense. But as usual Vettel bashing.


It's not Vettel bashing at all, he's not been the same since Singapore '17. Not everything at Ferrari has to be designed around Vettel, as much as you idolise him.

Ferrari are so far in with their aero concept that it would be crazy for them to start again from scratch. They've got no option but to build upon and refine what they've got.

#5354 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 32,572 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 17 September 2019 - 09:20

Looking at the cars across the grid I doubt that there is any that would really suit Vettel *much* more than his current car, especially not the most succesful concept on the grid (Merc). I'm not sure that you can do much more with the new front wing regulations from the drivers POV.

Edited by Marklar, 17 September 2019 - 09:20.


#5355 gillesfan76

gillesfan76
  • Member

  • 3,578 posts
  • Joined: July 16

Posted 17 September 2019 - 15:55

Binotto keeps claiming that he would have done this differently had he known how the tyres are but I dont think it's that. I cant remember that a car that has so little downforce ever won the title, regardless of the tyres. Even when the tyres were absolute junk for Red Bull in 2012 their downforce still made it the best car in the field, same for Mercedes on some occasions in the last couple of years.

I think it's more that with the new front wing regulations it is very difficult to balance your car without sacrifying front downforce. Just look at the concepts: most of the field went more to the Ferrari direction than to the Mercedes direction. And it initially looked like that is the way to go. Mercedes so to speak went for the riskier approach with their concept and won.

Which is why I dont really get why Ferrari is not at least trying to copy the Mercedes or at least the Red Bull approach (perhaps - as many suspected - you can only really perfect it over low rake): This year was the perfect opportunity to try it out. Nothing to lose. Even if you dont manage to get exactly the same performance out of this you still have the best engine of the field to offset that. We'll see next year if sticking to their current concept and just adjusting it will be the way to go, but I do have my doubts.

 

What astounds me is with the engine advantage, they don't need to go towards a high efficiency/low downforce & low drag philosophy that Red Bull for example had to in previous seasons to compensate for the relatively under powered Renault engine.

 

As Jenson pointed out when he still active at McLaren and the woeful Honda engine at the time, the lower power has a compounding effect on the aero issues. The low engine power takes away any flexibility to not just add downforce, but just as importantly, balancing out downforce front to rear.

 

So one would think that with a power advantage, Ferrari was in the box seat for the aero philosophy. They could pile on downforce, even if it wasn't as efficient as possible, knowing they had the engine power to overcome it and similarly have a lot more flexibility with setup because of the ability to add downforce to one end for better balance.

 

With this engine, coupled with the aero changes to reduce the complexity, they should have walked this season.



#5356 Unicast

Unicast
  • Member

  • 1,297 posts
  • Joined: April 18

Posted 17 September 2019 - 16:24

What astounds me is with the engine advantage, they don't need to go towards a high efficiency/low downforce & low drag philosophy that Red Bull for example had to in previous seasons to compensate for the relatively under powered Renault engine.

 

As Jenson pointed out when he still active at McLaren and the woeful Honda engine at the time, the lower power has a compounding effect on the aero issues. The low engine power takes away any flexibility to not just add downforce, but just as importantly, balancing out downforce front to rear.

 

So one would think that with a power advantage, Ferrari was in the box seat for the aero philosophy. They could pile on downforce, even if it wasn't as efficient as possible, knowing they had the engine power to overcome it and similarly have a lot more flexibility with setup because of the ability to add downforce to one end for better balance.

 

With this engine, coupled with the aero changes to reduce the complexity, they should have walked this season.

 

Ferrari does have an engine advantage, but it's not as big as some of you folks think it is.

It was obvious, by watching the first part of the season, that while Ferrari certainly had an edge in qualifying, in the race the engine was thirsty and fuel inefficient.

Having more raw power doesn't help if you can't finish the race without fuel saving during the race! Mercedes got that one right as well, they focused on fuel efficiency and they were able to run their engine longer and higher during the race. Ferrari had no chance really.

Now with the spec 3 Ferrari finally seems to focus a lot on efficiency so we'll see how things will pan out in future races but until spec 3, Ferrari had an engine capable of beating the competition only in small bursts of speed in qualy and than slowly loosing in the race.



#5357 nemanja

nemanja
  • Member

  • 1,173 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 17 September 2019 - 18:02

Ferrari does have an engine advantage, but it's not as big as some of you folks think it is.

It was obvious, by watching the first part of the season, that while Ferrari certainly had an edge in qualifying, in the race the engine was thirsty and fuel inefficient.

Having more raw power doesn't help if you can't finish the race without fuel saving during the race! Mercedes got that one right as well, they focused on fuel efficiency and they were able to run their engine longer and higher during the race. Ferrari had no chance really.

Now with the spec 3 Ferrari finally seems to focus a lot on efficiency so we'll see how things will pan out in future races but until spec 3, Ferrari had an engine capable of beating the competition only in small bursts of speed in qualy and than slowly loosing in the race.

Exactly. Things may start to look different from now on. I am not saying they will be winning races like Singapore, not even close but we should wait and see what will bring new aero aimed at more downforce + engine Spec 3. That will maybe bring them back in the game at places like Suzuka and Sochi. Just enough downforce for them to survive sectors with lot of curves, specially 90 degrees ones.



#5358 ferrarista

ferrarista
  • Member

  • 955 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 17 September 2019 - 20:58

https://mobile.twitt...859233969901569

#5359 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 6,432 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted Yesterday, 05:35

Wins are a boost to the confidence, but does that make it into underestimating the negatives of the overall design?
It's great to see a HP advantage which I hope remains for next season, giving the team a chance to focus on the DF deficit.

Advertisement

#5360 FastnLoud

FastnLoud
  • Member

  • 1,694 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted Yesterday, 07:31

Christian Horner has seen something he doesn’t like about the Ferrari engine and has sent a number of questions to the FIA and is awaiting feedback.

#5361 CoolBreeze

CoolBreeze
  • Member

  • 1,702 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted Yesterday, 08:08

Christian Horner has seen something he doesn’t like about the Ferrari engine and has sent a number of questions to the FIA and is awaiting feedback.

 

He must be vaping something Max passed him...



#5362 ConsiderAndGo

ConsiderAndGo
  • Member

  • 5,585 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted Yesterday, 08:44

Isn't this the point in the season last year where Ferrari introduced upgrades (downgrades!) that just tanked the car and took like 3 races to realise before they took them off?

 

Well, lets hope the rumored upgrades actually work positively this time around.



#5363 oli4

oli4
  • New Member

  • 20 posts
  • Joined: January 19

Posted Yesterday, 09:13

Christian Horner has seen something he doesn’t like about the Ferrari engine and has sent a number of questions to the FIA and is awaiting feedback.

 

Horner is a crybaby. 



#5364 CSF

CSF
  • Member

  • 753 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted Yesterday, 11:32

Horner is a crybaby. 

 

I mean, its just what happened to RBR between 09-13.  :well:



#5365 Astandahl

Astandahl
  • Member

  • 568 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted Yesterday, 11:41

Christian Horner has seen something he doesn’t like about the Ferrari engine and has sent a number of questions to the FIA and is awaiting feedback

 

Jo Bauer said that so far everything has been legal.



#5366 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 5,595 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted Yesterday, 11:46

Indeed. This power unit is completely ridiculous. Even with DRS and slipstream Hamilton can't close up on Leclear at main straight in Monza.

 

Eerily similar to 2011, where one Mercedes engine couldn't really pass another Mercedes engine on Monza :)

 



#5367 Raest

Raest
  • Member

  • 335 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted Yesterday, 12:06

Personally think Ferrari are cheating on the engine side with the ers and have just found a way to hide it. Charlie made sure new sensors were put on last year and suddenly the Ferrari lost its speed and teams weren’t noticing this crazy spike. I have no idea what’s monitored this year or how Ferrari are 50bhp better off than most teams.

So you have no idea about nothing but you "personally think that Ferrari are cheating". 

Damn the Forum rules...  :drunk:  :evil:  :stoned:

 

 

Edit: You got to love this line of reasoning though. "If Ferrari are slower it means they are incompetent if they are faster then they are cheating".  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:


Edited by Raest, Yesterday, 12:15.


#5368 CoolBreeze

CoolBreeze
  • Member

  • 1,702 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted Yesterday, 13:20

Meanwhile, i just realized mission winnow has been off the car for sometime now  :stoned:



#5369 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 32,572 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted Yesterday, 18:25

Upgrade package is a floor/diffusor/FW/RW, and it's supposed to also help Vettel.

Basically this upgrade will determine whether they can fight for the win in Interlagos and Sochi, or whether that was all for this year. Also naturally everything positive out of this could be carried over to 2020

https://it.motorspor...vettel/4543262/



#5370 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 6,355 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted Yesterday, 19:42

Ferrari does have an engine advantage, but it's not as big as some of you folks think it is.

not sure about this. They are dominating everybody on the straights. By huge margins, in all circuit configurations. More strangely, even in low downforce situations.



#5371 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 6,355 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted Yesterday, 19:44

Eerily similar to 2011, where one Mercedes engine couldn't really pass another Mercedes engine on Monza :)

 

there the car was just bouncing off the limiter half way along the straight. Lewis was not lacking the ability to close in. 

Here it doesn't seem a rev limit issue - just the car being unable with a tow and drs to close up. Which translates to a significant power advantage



#5372 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 20,578 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted Yesterday, 21:15

not sure about this. They are dominating everybody on the straights. By huge margins, in all circuit configurations. More strangely, even in low downforce situations.

Since 2018, the Ferrari design philosophy has been built around low drag.  We lost so many opportunities in 2017 because we lacked that little bit of extra end-of-straight speed, whether defending or overtaking.  2018 turned to fix that as top priority while also retaining downforce by lengthening the wheelbase.  2019 car was a continuation of that 2018 philosophy.  

 

Haas and Alfa would more closely follow Ferrari in competitiveness changes track-to-track if the engine disparity was so big.  But that hasn't been the case.  



#5373 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 6,355 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted Yesterday, 21:38

well, that would be true if not on monza too. The gap was just way too big. I have never seen a car with DRS and tow not making up ground (while not on the wrong gearing either). That Ferrari was incredibly good just on that big straight. On other straights it didn't seem to be able to deploy the same thing. Aero can't do that, it's something they do to turn the engine up more when neede

there is no indication haas or alfa use the same power/special modes. I am not saying Ferrari do anything illegal, just that their bursts of short term power can be wow



#5374 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 20,578 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted Yesterday, 21:56

well, that would be true if not on monza too. The gap was just way too big. I have never seen a car with DRS and tow not making up ground (while not on the wrong gearing either). That Ferrari was incredibly good just on that big straight. On other straights it didn't seem to be able to deploy the same thing. Aero can't do that, it's something they do to turn the engine up more when neede

there is no indication haas or alfa use the same power/special modes. I am not saying Ferrari do anything illegal, just that their bursts of short term power can be wow

Aero can absolutely do that.  Especially when Ferrari leverages their low drag philosophy into its max low downforce form.  Much like Spa, where Ferrari ran with a shallower rear wing than most and really maximized their advantage to best effect.  

 

Plus we did see that Mercedes could follow and gain on the Ferrari even without DRS when Lewis chased Leclerc through Curva Grande. 

 

I'm not saying Ferrari dont have great peak HP, but I agree with the notion that it's not this supreme advantage others are painting it as.  



#5375 Shade

Shade
  • Member

  • 738 posts
  • Joined: February 17

Posted Today, 03:00

Isn't this the point in the season last year where Ferrari introduced upgrades (downgrades!) that just tanked the car and took like 3 races to realise before they took them off?

 

Well, lets hope the rumored upgrades actually work positively this time around.

Exactly. But it seems whatever Ferrari has done this year has worked to improve their bad car. Let's hope they make a step forward cause nothing goes to waste.



#5376 tomjol

tomjol
  • Member

  • 845 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted Today, 06:05

well, that would be true if not on monza too. The gap was just way too big. I have never seen a car with DRS and tow not making up ground (while not on the wrong gearing either). That Ferrari was incredibly good just on that big straight. On other straights it didn't seem to be able to deploy the same thing. Aero can't do that, it's something they do to turn the engine up more when neede
there is no indication haas or alfa use the same power/special modes. I am not saying Ferrari do anything illegal, just that their bursts of short term power can be wow


If you’re fast enough on the other straights without using all your hybrid boost/aggressive engine modes/whatever, you can save that stuff for most of the lap and deploy it all at once when you’re really in danger - on the pit straight.

#5377 Raest

Raest
  • Member

  • 335 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted Today, 08:41

well, that would be true if not on monza too. The gap was just way too big. I have never seen a car with DRS and tow not making up ground (while not on the wrong gearing either). That Ferrari was incredibly good just on that big straight. On other straights it didn't seem to be able to deploy the same thing. Aero can't do that, it's something they do to turn the engine up more when neede

there is no indication haas or alfa use the same power/special modes. I am not saying Ferrari do anything illegal, just that their bursts of short term power can be wow

The 2014/15 (can't remember which one) Williams was very hard to overtake on the straight at almost all circuits, very hard to close in. It seems that a lot of people assume that because teams ran the low downforce configuration in Monza they had the same drag. That's just plain wrong.  



#5378 ConsiderAndGo

ConsiderAndGo
  • Member

  • 5,585 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted Today, 09:50

New caped nose for Ferrari. Front wing itself remains the same.

 

https://twitter.com/...619615919370240



#5379 steferrari

steferrari
  • Member

  • 1,166 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted Today, 09:52

EE0WAkXU4AEDNh_.jpg

 

EE0WTgXU0AEtMmQ.jpg



Advertisement

#5380 Maikel0230

Maikel0230
  • Member

  • 473 posts
  • Joined: December 13

Posted Today, 10:06

Seems like a prety significant update. Let's hope it actually works.



#5381 TomNokoe

TomNokoe
  • Member

  • 20,141 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted Today, 10:11

Pre-updated-Racing Point-esque :p

#5382 steferrari

steferrari
  • Member

  • 1,166 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted Today, 11:06

EE0fZK6U8AAskb7.jpg



#5383 ferrarista

ferrarista
  • Member

  • 955 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted Today, 12:08

4 tenths aero upgrade according to F1AT

#5384 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,673 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted Today, 12:11

Pre-updated-Racing Point-esque :p

 

Ferrari choosing Racing Point design, Racing Point choosing Ferrari design.  How odd!?  :eek:

 

racing-point-rp19-front-1.jpg


Edited by V8 Fireworks, Today, 12:13.


#5385 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 10,673 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted Today, 12:16

EE0fZK6U8AAskb7.jpg

 

The front wing only two elements to generate the Y250 tip vortex, whereas Red Bull and even Racing Point uses three.  This seems unwise IMO.  More wingtips surely makes a better Y250 vortex!?  :confused:

 

Red Bull and Mercedes have even tried using four wingtips at times, to see if it could enhance the Y250 vortex.


Edited by V8 Fireworks, Today, 12:17.


#5386 grunf77

grunf77
  • Member

  • 250 posts
  • Joined: October 16

Posted Today, 12:25

4 tenths aero upgrade according to F1AT

 

I am bit skeptical about that number. 



#5387 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 1,174 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted Today, 12:26

Whilst I'm not expecting much for this weekend, I hope that hear upgrades will give Ferrari a chance at circuits like Russia and Brazil.

#5388 TomNokoe

TomNokoe
  • Member

  • 20,141 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted Today, 12:47

4 tenths aero upgrade according to F1AT

Would've been pole in Hungary .......



#5389 Unicast

Unicast
  • Member

  • 1,297 posts
  • Joined: April 18

Posted Today, 12:57

EE0hcX7UUAEPTHP.jpg

 

EE0katVVUAEdRsU.jpg


Edited by Unicast, Today, 12:57.


#5390 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 32,572 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted Today, 12:58

Would've been pole in Hungary .......

Would have been P3

#5391 Unicast

Unicast
  • Member

  • 1,297 posts
  • Joined: April 18

Posted Today, 13:02

4 tenths aero upgrade according to F1AT

 

I'm also skeptical about it, 4 tenth is huge!



#5392 ferrarista

ferrarista
  • Member

  • 955 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted Today, 13:26

I'm also skeptical about it, 4 tenth is huge!

me too, but if it really is 4 tenths on track, it's game on for the next races



#5393 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 1,174 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted Today, 13:38

Would've been pole in Hungary .......

4 tenths at Singapore is definitely not 4 tenths in Hungary. The former is one of the longest circuits on the calendar, the latter is about 75s long, no?



#5394 Pimpwerx

Pimpwerx
  • Member

  • 1,512 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted Today, 13:42

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ferrari debut a similar outwash floor last year at this same GP, and then proceeded to put their championship hopes in reverse? I swear this floor looks like the one from last year that cost them all of their momentum.



#5395 uraharakisuke

uraharakisuke
  • Member

  • 340 posts
  • Joined: July 18

Posted Today, 13:44

4 tenths is huge, seems doubtful. It would make the remaining races more fun though.



#5396 ferrarista

ferrarista
  • Member

  • 955 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted Today, 13:59

Ferrari can find tricks from nowhere, who knows if they have found something in aerodynamics as well  :D


Edited by ferrarista, Today, 13:59.


#5397 ConsiderAndGo

ConsiderAndGo
  • Member

  • 5,585 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted Today, 15:27

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ferrari debut a similar outwash floor last year at this same GP, and then proceeded to put their championship hopes in reverse? I swear this floor looks like the one from last year that cost them all of their momentum.


Pretty much the same yeah. Totally different car, though!