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Ferrari Technical Thread (SF90)


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#2701 gillesfan76

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 10:18

Tyres, tyres, tyres. Y'all just writing everything off when just a race ago, Leclerc would've dominated in Bahrain had it not been for the engine failure. Does Red Bull really have a poor chassis? Of course not. It's just the tyres. None of the teams have figured these tyres out yet, their operating window is way too narrow.



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#2702 Blocnog

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 10:25

Just out of interest why is everyone complaining about the Ferrari in the corners but in s1 and s2 they were matching the Mercs, particularly in Quali? I think the cars are a lot closer than people here seem to want to believe, if you'd ask everyone who would win the championship/had best car this time last season everyone would say Ferrari. Long way to go yet and I think both teams have a solid base to build from and once we're deeper into the season and the car setups have been better understood I think we can see a much closer battle at the front. 



#2703 TomNokoe

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 10:28

Tyres, tyres, tyres. Y'all just writing everything off when just a race ago, Leclerc would've dominated in Bahrain had it not been for the engine failure. Does Red Bull really have a poor chassis? Of course not. It's just the tyres. None of the teams have figured these tyres out yet, their operating window is way too narrow.

Just out of interest why is everyone complaining about the Ferrari in the corners but in s1 and s2 they were matching the Mercs, particularly in Quali? I think the cars are a lot closer than people here seem to want to believe, if you'd ask everyone who would win the championship/had best car this time last season everyone would say Ferrari. Long way to go yet and I think both teams have a solid base to build from and once we're deeper into the season and the car setups have been better understood I think we can see a much closer battle at the front.

I agree with you both. Apparently "Ferrari have a rubbish chassis", and yet it looks to be the second best on the grid!

Rather than bashing Ferrari I think people need to understand just how formidable Mercedes can be.

Edited by TomNokoe, 14 April 2019 - 10:28.


#2704 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 10:36

The car does have a Monster Engine. They just can’t stop and turn it properly.

 

"Aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines"



#2705 CountDooku

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 10:44

"Aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines"


Yup. For Enzo the SF90 would have been the greatest Ferrari ever!

#2706 Massa

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 10:48

The car is pig in slow corners, that onboard from Max car is telling. Max could use much tighter lines, and Vettel was on newer tires.


Cold tyres..

#2707 Shade

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 10:50

Tyres, tyres, tyres. Y'all just writing everything off when just a race ago, Leclerc would've dominated in Bahrain had it not been for the engine failure. Does Red Bull really have a poor chassis? Of course not. It's just the tyres. None of the teams have figured these tyres out yet, their operating window is way too narrow.

This year we have the special Mercedes tyres, no wonder they make them work.



#2708 nemanja

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 11:29

https://twitter.com/...386733925085184

 

Marc Gene on Ferrari race.



#2709 ExEd

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 11:30

This year we have the special Mercedes tyres, no wonder they make them work.

In the case of you been serious with this ....

 

I didn't see anyone of you complaining when Leclerc was cruising to victory on Bahrain last week.

Definitely it was the tyres fault that the most easy 1-2 for Ferrari since long time ago managed to get lost  :down: .



#2710 Shade

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 11:45

In the case of you been serious with this ....

 

I didn't see anyone of you complaining when Leclerc was cruising to victory on Bahrain last week.

Definitely it was the tyres fault that the most easy 1-2 for Ferrari since long time ago managed to get lost  :down: .

And I didn't see you complaining about Ferrari engine this week.



#2711 gillesfan76

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 13:34

This year we have the special Mercedes tyres, no wonder they make them work.

 

What are you talking about? Merc couldn't get them to work in Bahrain.

 

I can empathise with your pain, but you're looking outward. You should look at your own team, they are the problem (and they have the solutions), no one else.



#2712 Unicast

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 13:45

Ferrari's only real chance to still stay relevant in the title fights is to have two stellar races in Baku & Barcelona.

At this point this looks more like fantasy than a possible outcome but who knows, maybe we'll weak up and manage to find some answers to your performance deficit compared to Merc.

We are also in dire needs of some upgrades which improve the performance of the car in the corners.

It's a really tough beginning of the season for us, I wouldn't have imagined this will happen after the strong tests in Barcelona, it's really weird but maybe the fact that our car seem to suit some circuits much better than others actually worked in our detriment.

If our team found a good car straight out of the box in Barcelona maybe they had less incentives to really advance our car's understanding like Mercedes did.

What I am saying is that if we would have had tests on different tracks maybe the weaknesses of our design philosophy would have been visible earlier although I'm sure Ferrari ran simulations and somewhere the data didn't match the expected results.

Strange season so far, I still have a slight hope that we can turn it around in the next two races and at least keep the championship alive, maybe for selfish reasons - cause I really want to have a motivation in watching the entire F1 season but by the looks of it, and if Merc keeps pilling the 1-2s it will be a much shorter championship than any of us expected.

I'll finish on a positive note tough, cause there is nothing to be gained by adding even more negativity on top of all our problems, so let's hope we can find solutions to our problems and maybe we can fight for the win in Baku.

Forza Ferrari.

:up:


Edited by Unicast, 14 April 2019 - 13:46.


#2713 ExEd

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 13:46

In the case of you been serious with this ....

 

I didn't see anyone of you complaining when Leclerc was cruising to victory on Bahrain last week.

Definitely it was the tyres fault that the most easy 1-2 for Ferrari since long time ago managed to get lost  :down: .

 

 

And I didn't see you complaining about Ferrari engine this week.

 

:confused:  Complain about what?

Mate, are you following the topic ? 

I'm not the one implying that Ferrari is ahead (or not) because of rules or engine or anything like your laughable digs for the tyres... 

That was all my posting about... 

 

Every weekend so far Ferrari is strong in engine, falling behind in traction (expect Bahrain where they were strong all in all). 

What are you talking about? 


Edited by ExEd, 14 April 2019 - 13:48.


#2714 Goron3

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 13:57

On paper, Baku should be similar to Bahrain as it's just a point and squirt circuit. However, I think it's fair to say that the car needs a fairly extensive upgrade in Spain to make it more consistent in terms of performance.

Edited by Goron3, 14 April 2019 - 17:50.


#2715 uraharakisuke

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 15:17

On paper, Baku should be similar to Baku as it's just a point and squirt circuit. However, I think it's fair to say that the car needs a fairly extensive upgrade in Spain to make it more consistent in terms of performance.

Oh Goron, perish the thought!



#2716 apoka

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 16:17

On paper, Baku should be similar to Baku


This might not be the most insightful statement, but at least one of the few things all forum posters should agree with.

#2717 rodlamas

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 23:09

I don't know how far the Rosberg discussion about Ferrari's aero imbalance has gone, but he was put on his youtube channel. Ferrari is lacking drag and downforce, basically. So they win time on the straights, but lose too much on the corners, so the car is not fully optimized for the best laptime. The colder, denser air from winter must have masked this and now they are on the back foot (this is my take). It will take for Ferrari to recover and he thinks Mercedes is basically ahead everywhere.



#2718 beachdrifter

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 23:30

 Ferrari is lacking drag and downforce, basically. So they win time on the straights, but lose too much on the corners, so the car is not fully optimized for the best laptime.

 

They are lacking downforce under certain conditions. The car is just generally too dependent on outside factors (temperatures, track characteristics) to consistently perform at its best. Can that be solved? No doubt, but the question is how long that takes, and how favourable conditions will be at the upcoming tracks. For example, just the temperatures in Baku could make all the difference.  


Edited by beachdrifter, 14 April 2019 - 23:32.


#2719 Melbourne Park

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 01:44

The only thing I really understand about Ferrari F1, is how supremely political the team is. 

 

So anything they say or are reported as having said means nothing to me.

 

Same for letting Seb through. It made no sense to me then, and doesn't now. Surely the team know the driver capabilities, and the car and tyre issues while they race. If they missed the opportunity for Sebs tyres, then live with it and fight for his 4th place. IMO Seb would have beaten Max if they'd left him behind Leclerc. And if not why not? And no way do I buy the "challenge Bottas" claim. A load of rubbish. The team is too political. With Jon Todt, Brawn, Schumacher at least their politics was based on logic and what benefits the team. 


Edited by Melbourne Park, 15 April 2019 - 01:47.


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#2720 Marklar

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 06:46

The "if conditions are right" talk is a bit dangerous. Even in 2015 there were conditions where Ferrari performed better/as good (Malaysia, Singapore, maybe Bahrain). The main problem to me is that the team has too many issues: Reliability, corner performance, team politics/tensions, strategy, potentially their leading driver didnt learn from last year either (*if* Bahrain is anything to go by)...

Even if the car is going to find the sweet spot consistently there are a ton of other issues which can prevent their success in individual races. And even if they win a couple of races (they surely will) it'll be too little if Mercedes is able to maximize their results consistently as they've done in the past.

Sometimes it's necessary to go to the limit reliability-wise and design-wise even if it means inconsistent performances and potentially no good shot at the championship. Those are sometimes necessary evils on the path to success, so I wouldnt really blame them for that, especially since Pirelli makes this stuff tricky as well. What is not acceptable is to run for the 4th straight year with what seems like a incompetent strategy team. Those are cheap points thrown away. Cheap points you *have* to collect when your car is currently not in a good shape.

I do think and hope that Ferrari can pose a championship threat to Mercedes, but it's far from being a certainty.

#2721 w1Y

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 07:46

I think you are going to get some weekends where Ferrari are untouchable and some when merc are. Its going to come down to development and how many of each race suits each car best.

Then there will be tracks where it is very very close and it will come down to strategy and thw drivers.

We have had 3 races so far.

Aus was a bit of an anomaly because ferrari clearly had a lot of issues. Still i would say that merc were probably untouchable anyway.

Bahrain, a rear limited track, was a clear ferrari track even though they didnt win.

China, a front limited track, was a merc track.

It seems to me that slow, medium and corners where you need a front end is where merc are strong.

Fast corners and long straights ferrari are strong.

Development is something we will see as the season progresses

Edited by w1Y, 15 April 2019 - 07:47.


#2722 TomNokoe

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 08:37

The colder, denser air from winter must have masked this and now they are on the back foot (this is my take).

 


Baku is below sea level and very mild - 14-15degC.

#2723 grunf77

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 09:00

I  am not sure if it's too early for car nickname but I got one just in case: Porco Rosso. :clap:



#2724 peroa

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 09:08

If the trend continues Ferrari should have their hands full with RBR in Baku.

To many corners, not enough downforce, understeery car.

 

I expect something like Melbourne, except if Merc totally doesn't get the tyres working.



#2725 grunf77

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 09:37

I think the PU is really strong, most likely the benchmark but the rest is crap to be honest.

And seeing 3 1-2's for Merc is already dented most of my hopes for a close championship battle.

It's a pitty but we still don't know how to build proper aero & chassis, not Merc's fault really.

Our team is simply not up to the task, nothing more to say at this point but what is annoying as **** is that compared to 2017/2018 we have taken a step back instead of going forward.

I  like it this way  more then usual self-destruction around Singapore.  Hurts less.



#2726 Nonesuch

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:46

I  am not sure if it's too early for car nickname but I got one just in case: Porco Rosso. :clap:

 

And the tragic thing is that it's still better than everything everyone else brought to the table.

 

The state of the competition in F1 is shockingly bad.



#2727 Nonesuch

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:57

Surely the team know the driver capabilities, and the car and tyre issues while they race. If they missed the opportunity for Sebs tyres, then live with it and fight for his 4th place.

 

Unfortunately I think your assumption is wrong. Ferrari too often doesn't seem to know what it's doing.

 

Some of their strategy "blunders" aren't really blunders but just failed schemes that were always a risk, but in other cases they've just completely missed the mark to the point even casual commentators were, at the moment it happened, wondering what the heck Ferrari was playing at.

 

I suppose you can always argue that they have inside knowledge that means they have to make compromises, and that people on the outside don't get this additional consideration, but ... they've made a right mess of things too often for that to be a very credible excuse.



#2728 P123

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:57

And the tragic thing is that it's still better than everything everyone else brought to the table.
 
The state of the competition in F1 is shockingly bad.


The 'tragic thing'... steady on Nonesuch, it was on to win the second race of the season at a canter. And the grid from front to back is as close as it's ever been- I suspect some who moan the most on here would likely faint if shown a race classification from the 90's. The likes of Renault, Honda, McLaren continue to under-deliver. It's similar to the early noughties, where only the tyre war occasionally brought anybody other than Ferrari into the mix. I'd agree that it is a bit dispiriting. How many stabs at it do the rest need to close in?

#2729 Nonesuch

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:08

It's similar to the early noughties, where only the tyre war occasionally brought anybody other than Ferrari into the mix.

 

That's a bit much! There were big championship battles in 2000 and 2003 the likes of which we haven't seen since 2012. It's also not so much that F1 is in an unprecedented place; as you rightly note.

 

But two things conspire to make it more problematic: other series are putting on a better show and the technology has never been better suited to bring those previously 'hidden gems' to the masses, and - aside from McLaren's road to disaster - there hasn't really been any change of note, which emphasises the problem. Even in these 00s, you had four different constructors winning titles. In the 2010s that number is going to stay at two. It's getting worse, not better.


Edited by Nonesuch, 15 April 2019 - 12:09.


#2730 SCUDmissile

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:55

With the amount of knowledge of Ferraris workings he has, maybe Toto could come and be Ferrari's TP?

#2731 Enzoluis

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 13:59

And the tragic thing is that it's still better than everything everyone else brought to the table.

 

The state of the competition in F1 is shockingly bad.

 

Because he chance of improvements during the year are negligible. Who builds the better car in winter takes all. That is the actual F1. And the champions of to it right at the first time you know who are.



#2732 nemanja

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 15:36

https://twitter.com/...89&widget=Tweet

 

I still believe the tires and suboptimal suspension set-up is the main cause and culprit of all the problems.



#2733 Unicast

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 15:42

We still have the second best car by miles, with all the cockups & failures... if you try to look at it from this perspective suddenly it's not all doom & gloom.

It's just that there is one team which is consistently above everyone else.

Maybe we should give more credit to Mercedes rather than detract from Ferrari's achievements... they are facing after all, most like the best F1 team in history (yes I do believe Mercedes is now even stronger than Ferrari was in the Schumacher, Todt, Brawn era)

It's a very tall order to beat Merc and it's the 6th year when they set the benchmark.

Just saying...


Edited by Unicast, 15 April 2019 - 16:51.


#2734 TomNokoe

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 15:43

I suspect Ferrari's problems will be masked in the next couple of races. They will be strong in Baku on their straight-line speed alone. Spain will surely be a happy hunting ground after their success in winter. Monaco is Monaco and their shorter wheelbase should help. All of a sudden we're in Canada, on the verge of PU2 and a potential raft of updates. Long season ahead.

#2735 Unicast

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 15:45

I suspect Ferrari's problems will be masked in the next couple of races. They will be strong in Baku on their straight-line speed alone. Spain will surely be a happy hunting ground after their success in winter. Monaco is Monaco and their shorter wheelbase should help. All of a sudden we're in Canada, on the verge of PU2 and a potential raft of updates. Long season ahead.

 

If Ferrari really has a DF deficit, they will be slaughtered in Monaco, most likely both Merc & RedBull will be in front.

But maybe they can fix the car by then.



#2736 peroa

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:03

I suspect Ferrari's problems will be masked in the next couple of races. They will be strong in Baku on their straight-line speed alone. Spain will surely be a happy hunting ground after their success in winter. Monaco is Monaco and their shorter wheelbase should help. All of a sudden we're in Canada, on the verge of PU2 and a potential raft of updates. Long season ahead.

Baku - depends how much they will lose in the corners, it's a bumpy street track and they haven't got plenty of downforce and an understeery car.

Spain should be strong.

Canada same as Baku, but considering it's mostly like Melbourne I wouldn't bet on red...

 

Monaco, merc should be good there this year.

 

Provided Ferrari doesn't somehow fix all fo their aero problems....



#2737 nemanja

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:15

https://www.redbull....t-fabrega-china



#2738 Enzoluis

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:25

https://twitter.com/...89&widget=Tweet

 

I still believe the tires and suboptimal suspension set-up is the main cause and culprit of all the problems.

 

The problem is Mercedes are faster. SF90 like last year car and 2017 car is a rally fast car. Add to that they have Lewis. 



#2739 nemanja

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 16:30

If Ferrari really has a DF deficit, they will be slaughtered in Monaco, most likely both Merc & RedBull will be in front.

But maybe they can fix the car by then.

IF they have that kind of problem with DF they will surely have some kind of solution before Monaco. But I must say that almost nobody mentions lack of rear ride height movement since the beginning of the season. It was obvious in Barcelona until Seb crash, which I know it was officially related to rim failure, but I'm not sure if reappeared afterwards. That would explain pretty much everything because it looked like Ferrari's concept relies heavily on that. And as hard as I try I didn't spot anything similar in the first 3 races. Unfortunately there is always an option that FIA asked Ferrari silently to remove it but I suppose we would hear at least something abou it.  

In my opinion that means the car will stay basically the same until the race in Barcelona so they can definitely double check and determined everything. If their original concept is bad we can expect different configuration in the tests after the race, and before the race in Monaco because they are certainly working on it if that is the case.


Edited by nemanja, 15 April 2019 - 17:12.


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#2740 AlexPrime

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 18:18

 

But two things conspire to make it more problematic: other series are putting on a better show and the technology has never been better suited to bring those previously 'hidden gems' to the masses,

True. Yesterday I slept till lunch, knowing that I'll miss F1. I catched the highlights and proceeded with several other series, blancpain, elms, nascar, all of which were more fun than F1 and I had MotoGP for dessert. Brand recognition is what saves F1. Niche championships are far better.



#2741 Unicast

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 19:08

True. Yesterday I slept till lunch, knowing that I'll miss F1. I catched the highlights and proceeded with several other series, blancpain, elms, nascar, all of which were more fun than F1 and I had MotoGP for dessert. Brand recognition is what saves F1. Niche championships are far better.

 

It's good that you slept, I woke up (too see the race after just 3 hours of sleep) after partying all night long on Saturday at great expense for myself and I can tell you that it was not worth it LOL

Still recovering from those lost hours of sleep.


Edited by Unicast, 15 April 2019 - 19:08.


#2742 AlexPrime

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 19:17

It's good that you slept, I woke up (too see the race after just 3 hours of sleep) after partying all night long on Saturday at great expense for myself and I can tell you that it was not worth it LOL

Still recovering from those lost hours of sleep.

I feel for you  :well:



#2743 Marklar

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 19:38

Pffft....I was working until three hours before the race and just woke up 5 minutes into the race  :p



#2744 ARTGP

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 19:43

It's good that you slept, I woke up (too see the race after just 3 hours of sleep) after partying all night long on Saturday at great expense for myself and I can tell you that it was not worth it LOL

Still recovering from those lost hours of sleep.

 

x2. I said I've never do this again after Melbourne, and then I did it again  :rolleyes: .  If things don't get interesting, Japanese GP is not happening.



#2745 Shade

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 09:40

Giovinazzi is working in the Ferrari simulator today. I don't know if he's back or this is a one-off.



#2746 Marklar

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 10:12

Apparently Vettel's team radio at the end of qualifying was about the wind, it was stronger for him than for the Merc drivers, so he claims at least. Others speculate that it could be reliability related, it could be that they have to occasionally turn down the engines due to that.

Also Binotto confirmed that they are producing something like the Merc rear wing (speculated to be in Barcelona, most likely will require more tweaks then though). He also said that they focus first on performance, and then on reliability. Claims that the only outlier is Melbourne. Testing, Shanghai and Bahrain were within a couple of tenths: "depending on the track we have some limitations".

Vettel seems to suspect that the lack of grip in slow corners has probably more to do with the tyres, namely the temperatures and tyre pressures (basically the performance in quick corners is too good to blame it on lacking downforce, even if they currently have less than Mercedes). Merc engineers are a bit speculating whether many corners in succession are what could be bad for Ferrari since (unlike Bahrain) the tyres dont get that many opportunities to cool down in Melbourne and Shanghai.

it really is a diva

Dunno if any of this was known before, so.

https://www.auto-mot...chnik-probleme/
 


Edited by Marklar, 16 April 2019 - 10:13.


#2747 sopa

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 10:57

True. Yesterday I slept till lunch, knowing that I'll miss F1. I catched the highlights and proceeded with several other series, blancpain, elms, nascar, all of which were more fun than F1 and I had MotoGP for dessert. Brand recognition is what saves F1. Niche championships are far better.

 

Good choice, approved. :)



#2748 ViMaMo

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 12:00

Is it the front wing philosophy that's hampering them?

#2749 Timstr11

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 12:26

Vettel seems to suspect that the lack of grip in slow corners has probably more to do with the tyres, namely the temperatures and tyre pressures (basically the performance in quick corners is too good to blame it on lacking downforce, even if they currently have less than Mercedes). Merc engineers are a bit speculating whether many corners in succession are what could be bad for Ferrari since (unlike Bahrain) the tyres dont get that many opportunities to cool down in Melbourne and Shanghai.

it really is a diva

Dunno if any of this was known before, so.

https://www.auto-mot...chnik-probleme/

I never understand it when people say "it's the tyres". Tyre temperature issues are a result of how the vehicle's dynamics work the tyres on a given surface. Vehicle dynamics are a result of aerodynamics and mechanical balance. So it's never the tyres . It's how the car works the tyres. As much as I dislike the Pirelli tyres, they're the same for everyone. The car and driver work them.

#2750 Enzoluis

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 13:13

I never understand it when people say "it's the tyres". Tyre temperature issues are a result of how the vehicle's dynamics work the tyres on a given surface. Vehicle dynamics are a result of aerodynamics and mechanical balance. So it's never the tyres . It's how the car works the tyres. As much as I dislike the Pirelli tyres, they're the same for everyone. The car and driver work them.

 

True if the constructors knows the tires in advance at the same time and with the same opportunities to test,  and the tires are consistent all over the season. I do not say this is not happening now but in the past wasn`t.