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Ferrari Technical Thread (SF90)


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#2751 nemanja

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 14:57

https://www.f1analis...he-la-sf90.html



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#2752 CoolBreeze

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 15:24

I think China GP taught me there is no circuit-specific-Ferrari



#2753 Enzoluis

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 18:19

Is it the front wing philosophy that's hampering them?

 

Conspiracy time:

There are voices saying that the front wing works with the suspension used in Barcelona changed because was thw cause, not an external element, of the explosion of the front rim.



#2754 Shade

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 21:06

Conspiracy time:

There are voices saying that the front wing works with the suspension used in Barcelona changed because was thw cause, not an external element, of the explosion of the front rim.

Wut?



#2755 beachdrifter

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 22:18

 

Maybe add a few words of description or a quote so people know why you're posting it, and whether it's worth checking out / translating / reading it. 



#2756 beachdrifter

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 22:26

Testing, Shanghai and Bahrain were within a couple of tenths: "depending on the track we have some limitations".

 

Exactly. Same is true for Merc.



#2757 ARTGP

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 03:18

This just hit me like a brick.  Haas have the same front and rear suspension and geometry of the Ferrar SF90 (albeit I believe the Haas has a slightly longer wheelbase).  We have seen that the Haas has no race pace in these 1st races of the season due to not getting heat into the tires.  

 

Since they have identical suspension geometry, is it possible Ferrari aren't getting the tires to the right window?  Ferrari were uncompetitive in Australia, Vettel dropped like a rock in Bahrain compared to Leclerc (maybe Leclerc's setup worked the tires better? Have heard that Vettel and Leclerc have completely different car setups). And then we have China again where they weren't really in it despite the straight line speed.  Are they just being very secretive about  the tire issues?


Edited by ARTGP, 17 April 2019 - 03:20.


#2758 Massa

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 05:33

It's a little what Amus were saying. Vettel think their slow corner problems mainly come from the way they use the tyres. They don't understand the tyres they have some work to do in this area.


A rear wing similar to Mercedes is in works, they perhaps will have to modify the FW or the badge board area to balance the car, and that's why they had no update since the pre season.

Amus were saying the team is strangely calm, usually after two slaps in the face on three races its the chaos at Maranello but not this year.

#2759 JonnyJ

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 09:23

http://www.somersf1....jekyll.html?m=1

Somers has some interesting ideas in this article about what is holding Ferrari back.

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#2760 Marklar

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 09:29

I like how there was a similar headline for the Merc in testing.

#2761 peroa

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 09:36

I guess the BBC article from the secret aero guy wasn't that far off.

Not enough (frontwing) downforce coupled with thin-thread tyres makes tyre temp management very difficult, not to mention that slow corner performance is severely lacking.

 

The magic Ferrari engine in the end isn't that magic, it's just flattered by a low-drag lower-downforce car.


Edited by peroa, 18 April 2019 - 09:22.


#2762 ferrarista

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 09:36

https://mobile.twitt...382367201165313

#2763 ferrarista

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 10:10

https://mobile.twitt...425589910769664

In the slow corners it was a massacre

#2764 Shade

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 14:49

Why would they build a car that is so complex and hard to get working? They already used these new tyres at 3 races last year and we won Silverstone. Surely they have a lot of data so "not understanding the tyres" is inexcusable.



#2765 peroa

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 15:15

It’s not about complexity. They simply can’t add more downforce overall without changing the front wing.
They need more at the front to pile up more at the rear.

#2766 seryt

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 16:56

It’s not about complexity. They simply can’t add more downforce overall without changing the front wing.
They need more at the front to pile up more at the rear.

Yes, but was the configuration (wing angles etc) for China the maximum possible for downforce from the current front wing design? If so will they not be in real trouble for slower circuits where the priority would have to be downforce over drag?



#2767 nemanja

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 18:33

D4XopgIXkAYy9wr.jpg

 

Seb shaved his moustache! That was the problem with SF90...aerodynamically... 



#2768 Massa

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 05:01

Why would they build a car that is so complex and hard to get working? They already used these new tyres at 3 races last year and we won Silverstone. Surely they have a lot of data so "not understanding the tyres" is inexcusable.


It's not PlayStation, the teams don't know how the car will be setup wise.

And last year cars have nothing to do with this years, the regulation have changed, the FW who is a major component of a car is not the same than last year.

Every team is more or less struggling setup wise, with these new cars and tyres.

While we have weakness, I just recal we dominate Bahreïn and was 3 tenths away from the nearly perfect Mercedes at the last race. If its a disaster, what can we say about Red Bull?

#2769 w1Y

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:54

It's not PlayStation, the teams don't know how the car will be setup wise.

And last year cars have nothing to do with this years, the regulation have changed, the FW who is a major component of a car is not the same than last year.

Every team is more or less struggling setup wise, with these new cars and tyres.

While we have weakness, I just recal we dominate Bahreïn and was 3 tenths away from the nearly perfect Mercedes at the last race. If its a disaster, what can we say about Red Bull?


I agree. At the moment ferrari are in the mix and ahead at some tracks.

#2770 MonkeySpin

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 09:08

 

The magic Ferrari engine at the end isn't that magic, it's just flattered by a low-drag lower-downforce car.

 

Indeed.



#2771 monolulu

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 11:54

https://www.motorspo...under-delivered
Interesting analysis of the Ferrari from Mark Hughes

#2772 RekF1

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 13:39

https://www.f1analis...he-la-sf90.html


So the article says Ferrari are slow and unbalanced in slow speed corners (compared to Mercedes). That's standard, but then in the comments there's an interesting infographic which suggests the opposite. I'm confused.

https://www.instagra.../p/BwKWa-3B1lR/

#2773 robefc

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 17:12

So the article says Ferrari are slow and unbalanced in slow speed corners (compared to Mercedes). That's standard, but then in the comments there's an interesting infographic which suggests the opposite. I'm confused.https://www.instagra.../p/BwKWa-3B1lR/


That graph ‘feels’ odd.

Mercedes slightly quicker in fast corners but thrashed in medium corners and the straights and behind in slow (by more than they’re ahead in fast).

Intuitively feels like they should have been lapped!

#2774 JonnyJ

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 18:24

That graph ‘feels’ odd.

Mercedes slightly quicker in fast corners but thrashed in medium corners and the straights and behind in slow (by more than they’re ahead in fast).

Intuitively feels like they should have been lapped!


The graph was from FP where Merc have admitted the run lower modes than Ferrari. Even then I remember not being convinced it was right it at the time.

#2775 Marklar

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 20:37

https://www.motorspo...under-delivered
Interesting analysis of the Ferrari from Mark Hughes

 

 

Rest of grid (bar Ferrari) qualifying deficit to Mercedes

 
Australia 102.46%
Bahrain 101.465%
China 101.987%

 

the numbers look random, or at least I dont get how he got to them.
 

The closest non-Ferrari to Mercedes was always Verstappen: Melbourne (101.04 %), Bahrain (100.64 %), Shanghai (100.59 %), which would bring you to the opposite of Hughes' conclusion.
 
Even if he means non-top-3-competition: that would be Grosjean in Melbourne (101.67 %), Magnussen in Bahrain (100.64 %), Ricciardo in Shanghai (101.54 %). It would then at least fit with his conclusion though, especially since Ferrari's gap to the others is way more consistent: Melbourne (101.11 %), Bahrain (101.01 %), Shanghai (101.21 %), but the numbers are still not the same. Idk

Either way seems like too few races to get any conclusions from this, but yes, noticed as well that Mercedes was a bit more off than they should have been in Bahrain.

 

That graph ‘feels’ odd.

Mercedes slightly quicker in fast corners but thrashed in medium corners and the straights and behind in slow (by more than they’re ahead in fast).

Intuitively feels like they should have been lapped!

 

People should ignore this, it's heavily flawed.



#2776 femi

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 06:56

the numbers look random, or at least I dont get how he got to them.
 

The closest non-Ferrari to Mercedes was always Verstappen: Melbourne (101.04 %), Bahrain (100.64 %), Shanghai (100.59 %), which would bring you to the opposite of Hughes' conclusion.
 
Even if he means non-top-3-competition: that would be Grosjean in Melbourne (101.67 %), Magnussen in Bahrain (100.64 %), Ricciardo in Shanghai (101.54 %). It would then at least fit with his conclusion though, especially since Ferrari's gap to the others is way more consistent: Melbourne (101.11 %), Bahrain (101.01 %), Shanghai (101.21 %), but the numbers are still not the same. Idk

Either way seems like too few races to get any conclusions from this, but yes, noticed as well that Mercedes was a bit more off than they should have been in Bahrain.

 

 

People should ignore this, it's heavily flawed.

Has this guy ever written anything good about Merc!



#2777 Nonesuch

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 07:36

the numbers look random, or at least I dont get how he got to them.

 
Indeed, I can't reproduce them either. Not sure where he's getting his numbers from.

He lists 'Rest of grid (bar Ferrari) qualifying deficit to Mercedes', but if if you make Hamilton's Bahrain qualifying time the new 100%, there isn't a driver who's at 101,465% of his time. The closest is Verstappen, at 100,637% of Hamilton's time.

 

101,465% of Hamilton's 1:28.190 (or 88,190) would be 1:29.482 (or 89,482) would it not? That's about Ricciardo's Q2 time (1:29.488) - down in 11th. :well:
 
I guess I'm missing something here. :confused:

 

Edited by Nonesuch, 20 April 2019 - 07:37.


#2778 SCUDmissile

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 08:56

https://twitter.com/...4019786753?s=19

Looks like some updates are coming.

#2779 robefc

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 09:41

the numbers look random, or at least I dont get how he got to them.
 

 

 

 

 

 
Indeed, I can't reproduce them either. Not sure where he's getting his numbers from.
 

 

Average of other cars' lap times?



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#2780 w1Y

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 10:11

probably taken the worst merc time against best average of the rest. Either way seems odd.

#2781 Nonesuch

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 10:57

Average of other cars' lap times?

 

The average Mercedes lap in Bahrain qualifying was 88,223. The average for places 5-20 was 89,711, which puts it at 101,686%. If you take only the slowest Mercedes lap in Bahrain qualifying, that was 88,256. Compared to the average of all the other places those are then at 101,648% (not a big difference as Bottas was only few hundreds slower than Hamilton). The number has to come from somewhere, but I'm not seeing where! That makes it a bit awkward to understand the argument build around it.

 

I'm sure there's something to be learned about Ferrari from comparing qualifying times, but - well, this is more confusing than anything else. :p



#2782 Drafter

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 11:33

 

 
Indeed, I can't reproduce them either. Not sure where he's getting his numbers from.

He lists 'Rest of grid (bar Ferrari) qualifying deficit to Mercedes', but if if you make Hamilton's Bahrain qualifying time the new 100%, there isn't a driver who's at 101,465% of his time. The closest is Verstappen, at 100,637% of Hamilton's time.

 

101,465% of Hamilton's 1:28.190 (or 88,190) would be 1:29.482 (or 89,482) would it not? That's about Ricciardo's Q2 time (1:29.488) - down in 11th. :well:
 
I guess I'm missing something here. :confused:

 

 

 

That analysis of Mark Hughes is a mess!

 

I think I have some idea how he's getting the numbers. For example, taking the fastest qualifying lap of Merc to fastest Renault and Haas we get:

 

         Ren        Haas

Aus  -2.49%    -1.64%

Bah  -1.45%   -0.64%

Chi   -1.52%   -1.72%

 

Same for Ferrari

 

        Ren        Haas

Aus  -1.64%    -0.78%

Bah  -1.81%   -1.00%

Chi   -1.19%   -1.40%

 

The Renault qualifying deficit is in the ball park for Aus and Bahrain but not China.  :drunk:

 

It's interesting that Haas were closer to Merc @ Bahrain than the other tracks. Additionally, look at the trend of Haas against Ferrari, it seems Ferrari are finding more and more performance relative to Haas from Aus to China as the gap seems to be growing. It goes against the argument that at Bahrain we saw the RealTM Ferrari compared to China or Australia.

 

It looks like Merc underperformed @ Bahrain seeing their gap to Haas, than Ferrari being back to their best?


Edited by Drafter, 20 April 2019 - 11:38.


#2783 ferrarista

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 13:48

For what it's worth

 

To begin with, Happy Easter to all. To those who believe and those who still deserve a just life.
To those who ask me what the real situation of the beloved Grand Prix Ferrari is, I reply that I don't have a crystal ball.
I'm not even interested in having her.
Among other things, I noticed that since the Web exists, we proceed by curious simplifications.
Example.
If I write, here or elsewhere, a phrase like "in Ferrari they think they understand the causes of the crisis", well, I find myself re-launched more or less like this: Leo Turrini assures that Ferrari has resolved the crisis.
Of course I live very well all the same, but I wanted to and I don't want to be misunderstood at least by those who frequent this little house of mine.
Once the premise is exhausted, I come to the point (two points, semicolon).
I dealt with those who live inside the SF90 problems.
Received version: having to graduate from 0 to 10 the probabilities of ... ascent of the machine, they answer you 10.
Bluffing is an art.
Bluff?
I hope not.
For Baku solutions will be anticipated that had to be ready for Barcelona.
My grandmother used to say that haste makes blind kittens but it is beyond dispute that, even with 18 rides to deal with, in Maranello they can't afford to waste any more time.
They talk to me about optimization, development, stories I've already heard.
Sometimes with a happy ending.
Sometimes not.
Happy Easter again, if the surprise arrives on Baku Sunday it's okay anyway.
Best wishes.

 

https://www.quotidia...i-pasqua-5.5663



#2784 ferrarista

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 13:54

https://translate.go...nza-limiti.html



#2785 monolulu

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 18:46

A reply from Mark Hughes on how the quali averages were calculated:-
Percentage of Merc's qualifying time for the fastest car from each team, then take the average percentage across those teams.
🤔

Edited by monolulu, 20 April 2019 - 18:46.


#2786 Marklar

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 19:30

That adds up at least....



#2787 MortenF1

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 19:56

...but it’s a bit «creative» nevertheless. Personally I’m much more interested in the gap from pole to the fourth fastest team.

#2788 Nonesuch

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 20:08

A reply from Mark Hughes on how the quali averages were calculated:-
Percentage of Merc's qualifying time for the fastest car from each team, then take the average percentage across those teams.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I'm sure there are reasons to quibble with that way of measuring things, but there always are! At least this makes it clear what's being discussed! :p



#2789 MaxisOne

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 21:45

https://mobile.twitt...425589910769664

In the slow corners it was a massacre

 

Holy Crap ! That's a lot of corner speed to not have. Lets see if once Ferrari fixes the corner speeds the additional drag equalizes on the straights or the engine advantage is real.



#2790 Nonesuch

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 07:52

That should be interesting, even if it's always going to be a mix of factors and not necessarily immediately obvious what part of the balance is being toyed with. But if - and it's an if - Ferrari manages to do so without losing too much on the straights that'll clearly be a plus for the team.

 

At the moment though, it's a bit odd to see headlines like 'Mercedes corner speed nullifying Ferrari's advantage' - which, as an aside, turns into the much more nuanced 'Mercedes' corner speed nullifying Ferrari's F1 straightline edge' in the full article view ... :stoned:

 

All manner of useless teams have been fast on straights. It used to be a bit of a habit of teams like Arrows, then Force india, etc. to go really fast on the straights. That might be a conscious choice to mask other issues, and it seems a bit curious to immediately label it an ' advantage'.



#2791 ferrarista

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 18:58

Let’s see if Ferrari will be able to get the heat in the front tyres as Baku is a low energy track for the tyres. It could be total domination from Mercedes.

#2792 Unicast

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 09:46

https://www.formula1...G5jjmWsMui.html

 

I don't know if Baku will be better for us or not, we should have a nice edge on the straights and I've heard some talk about Ferrari bring some updates forward (which were originally planned for Spain).

It would be nice to have a clean weekend and to see some of the performance displayed in Bahrain returning.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves cause we all know that that's the perfect recipe for dissipointment.

I'm very curious too see if we'll have some visible upgrades and if our performance in the low speed coners will improve.


Edited by Unicast, 23 April 2019 - 09:48.


#2793 nemanja

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 10:14

https://twitter.com/...73&widget=Tweet

 

Apparently, updates are coming...



#2794 SCUDmissile

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 11:04

We are bringing a few updates to Baku, as the first step in the development of the SF90.”

https://formula1.fer...jan-gp-preview/

#2795 w1Y

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 11:16

Baku can also throw up surprises in the race. Its going to be a very interesting weekend with Ferraris supposedly strong straight line performance. If it really is as strong as we have seen then its hard to see past them. Unless they really struggle with the tight corners.

I imagine tyre temp management will also play a big part

#2796 Marklar

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 11:26

Yeah, Baku is in the end all about tyre temps and luck with yellow flags.

On that note I do find Ferrari's new communication policy very interesting and refreshing. One thing that certainly improved this year.

#2797 IceSpeed

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 12:22

Straight line speed, compared to merc, in China on the ~1km back straight was in the range of what like a 3 tenths advantage? Would this be similar in Baku or possibly more because of the 2km front straight? Not sure if they would just maintain the gap or have a bigger advantage.

#2798 MonkeySpin

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 12:25

I've been watching some on-board footage to refresh my memory of how this track is. To me it seems to be like Monaco, but stretched out sort of thing.

 

I know there is a nice straight, but I dunno.... this looks like a track where the low down force Ferrari is going to struggle. Unless Merc and/or Redbull get their setups wrong I think Ferrari will be in a bit of trouble here.

 

That said, if they do get ahead in qualifying I do not see how they will be overtaken. Although I thought the same the other race back and Hamilton overtook Vettel, so who knows.



#2799 Hela

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 12:33

I think DRS works reasonably on this track



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#2800 uraharakisuke

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 20:01

DRS works well but even without DRS you can still overtake as the slipstream is very powerful.