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Standard gearbox tender for 2021


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#101 Wuzak

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 00:00

To those advocating standardising gearboxes ..Why not standardise H pattern 4/5 speed boxes of old?  After all they did the job of swapping cogs  just as well as the trick shifters of today  didn't they? Yeah. Just halt the march of progress why dont you? :rolleyes:

 

Progress has already been halted by what is allowed and not allowed by the rules.



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#102 RacingGreen

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 03:55

Looking on the bright side (of what in my opinion is a change for the worse) I suppose this will mean the end of silly gearbox related grid penalties as the teams can't be held responsible when a part the FIA are forcing on them breaks.



#103 Wuzak

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 05:09

The easier solution to that is to require they use so many gearboxes per year but don't have to do a certain number of GPs in a row. 



#104 Henri Greuter

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 08:11

To those advocating standardising gearboxes ..Why not standardise H pattern 4/5 speed boxes of old?  After all they did the job of swapping cogs  just as well as the trick shifters of today  didn't they? Yeah. Just halt the march of progress why dont you? :rolleyes:



Funny enough, one of the effects of the introduction of the sequential gearboxes was that there were way less gearbox failures and engine failures due to mis-shifts in which the engines were overrevved.

#105 PayasYouRace

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 13:12

Funny enough, one of the effects of the introduction of the sequential gearboxes was that there were way less gearbox failures and engine failures due to mis-shifts in which the engines were overrevved.


But conversely, hydraulic failures accounted for many more retirements. Engines have rev limiters anyway nowadays.

#106 pdac

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 17:16

The easier solution to that is to require they use so many gearboxes per year but don't have to do a certain number of GPs in a row. 

 

Yes, 1 gearbox per year. And, taking inspiration from a maths teacher that was at my school who ruined the headmasters points system ... 10 million grid places dropped for each subsequent gearbox used.



#107 FPV GTHO

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 22:47

But conversely, hydraulic failures accounted for many more retirements. Engines have rev limiters anyway nowadays.


Electronic rev limiters only stop the engine overreving from the throttle, not a mis shift from the gearbox.

#108 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 09:26

Electronic rev limiters only stop the engine overreving from the throttle, not a mis shift from the gearbox.

 

So the latter applies to putting into 3rd rather than 5th, but not for simply not getting the gear and stamping on the throttle while the car isn't in gear.



#109 Lennat

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 10:47

I would love to see H-pattern gear boxes make a return. I think 6 speed ones would make the most sense.



#110 CountDooku

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 10:50

I would love to see H-pattern gear boxes make a return. I think 6 speed ones would make the most sense.

 

While we're at it let's reintroduce steam-powered cars metal tyres.



#111 SophieB

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 11:19

Xtrac is set to bid for the exclusive #F1 gearbox supply for the 2021-2024 seasons:

https://t.co/y8pNoavbEK



#112 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 14:10

To those advocating standardising gearboxes ..Why not standardise H pattern 4/5 speed boxes of old?  After all they did the job of swapping cogs  just as well as the trick shifters of today  didn't they? Yeah. Just halt the march of progress why dont you? :rolleyes:

 

It seems Formula Ford has been listening to you as they do indeed use a 4-speed H-pattern racing gearbox.  :up:  It's unofficially a spec part, as there are no other suppliers available than Hewland, therefore all cars use Hewland boxes.

 

 

 

What a whole lot of fun!  Formula Fords sure don't seem slow around Mt Panorama!

 

While it would be strange for a modern high-end racecar to not have paddles, I wouldn't be against F1 adopting a 6-speed or 7-speed H-pattern regulation. (Porsche 911 and Corvette have 7-speed H-patterns, however it is tricky to introduce any more than 7 speeds to the shift pattern.) It would be a whole lot of fun. :up:

 

Obviously McLaren were slow to introduce a semi-automatic box compared to Ferrari and Williams, and the H-pattern served Senna and Berger more than competently.

 


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 27 February 2019 - 14:25.


#113 Fatgadget

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 22:22

F1 gearbox innovation doesnt transfer to road cars. The profit spoken of only comes out of the pockets of the rich teams selling their gearboxes to small teams at a profit.

They need an idea for sure, but that number could come from the FIA. I just dont buy into the espionage angle presented earlier.

Lowering the price can be simple as economies of scale and reducing individual gearbox R&D.

We have so few mechanucal gearbox failures leads me to think they arent engineered to the edge now anyways.

I think it does! Semi automatic  Sequential seemless twin clutch paddle  shifting?..Yes yes. I know.Been around a long time but F1 made it sexy -every boy racer want's similar in their rice car Honda Civic! :D



#114 Fatgadget

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 22:31

 

Xtrac is set to bid for the exclusive #F1 gearbox supply for the 2021-2024 seasons:

https://t.co/y8pNoavbEK

 

A guaranteed monopoly  and steady income for Xtrac. They would be daft not to bid for such  a cash cow.



#115 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 22:35

 

Xtrac is set to bid for the exclusive #F1 gearbox supply for the 2021-2024 seasons:

https://t.co/y8pNoavbEK

 

 

Would make sense. They know their stuff.



#116 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 03:27

Xtrac is a reputable, capable manufacturer. They'll do fine.

 

The H pattern in F1 is history. 

We need to get past archaic delusions of days gone past. 

 

The FIA/Liberty are going to implement a budget cap whether we like it or not. And it starts with this.



#117 OO7

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 06:17

I would love to see H-pattern gear boxes make a return. I think 6 speed ones would make the most sense.

While I wouldn't necessarily mandate H-pattern gearboxes, I would state that they must be manual and solely control the gearbox (no ignition cutting).


Edited by OO7, 28 February 2019 - 06:17.


#118 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 08:55

Xtrac is a reputable, capable manufacturer. They'll do fine.

 

The H pattern in F1 is history. 

We need to get past archaic delusions of days gone past. 

 

The FIA/Liberty are going to implement a budget cap whether we like it or not. And it starts with this.

The beginning of the end then... :down:



#119 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 08:55

 (no ignition cutting).

Why?



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#120 Peat

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:01

This is BS. We should be going the other way! The teams should be made to produce their own tyres, brakes and electronics. Driver's should be forced to stitch their own suits and make their own helmets too. 

Keep it pure!


(get a bloody grip!)



#121 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:05

This is BS. We should be going the other way! The teams should be made to produce their own tyres, brakes and electronics. Driver's should be forced to stitch their own suits and make their own helmets too.

Keep it pure!


(get a bloody grip!)

Not pure enough. They should mine their own metals and refine their own oils and fuel from crude that they’ve drilled themselves.

#122 SenorSjon

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:05

So this also means we get senseless disqualifications due to some minor modification made to it? To make it fit in the team made housing for instance.

#123 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:08

So this also means we get senseless disqualifications due to some minor modification made to it? To make it fit in the team made housing for instance.


It’s not senseless. If it’s a standard part you’re not allowed to modify it. In your example, if your team can’t build a casing for standard internals they shouldn’t be in the sport.

#124 OO7

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:11

Why?

To prevent flat shifting.



#125 SenorSjon

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:14

It’s not senseless. If it’s a standard part you’re not allowed to modify it. In your example, if your team can’t build a casing for standard internals they shouldn’t be in the sport.


If they can't afford it, they shouldn't be in the sport. ;)

#126 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:15

If they can't afford it, they shouldn't be in the sport. ;)


If not enough people can afford it you don’t have a sport.

#127 OO7

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:18

This is BS. We should be going the other way! The teams should be made to produce their own tyres, brakes and electronics. Driver's should be forced to stitch their own suits and make their own helmets too. 

Keep it pure!


(get a bloody grip!)

Get rid of the driver and make them passengers.  F1 wants to be road relevant and demonstrate future tech, so why not driver-less cars?  But if that's too much, how about ABS, traction control, 4WD, automatic gearboxes, CVT or just use the electric motor, electronic stability control and any other technology that reduces the skill necessary to drive at the limit (also reducing unpredictability) and places control in the hands of the engineers/software technicians.



#128 Peat

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 09:25

That nail, OO7. You hit it. Right on it's head. 



#129 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 11:15

It is already on the standard parts list so they can already buy a gearbox if they so wish - but why force it on all the teams?



#130 Cornholio

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 12:39

This is BS. We should be going the other way! The teams should be made to produce their own tyres, brakes and electronics. Driver's should be forced to stitch their own suits and make their own helmets too. 

Keep it pure!


(get a bloody grip!)

 

It shouldn't be one extreme or the other though. Nobody is saying teams should be required to produce every single last part on the car. They should (IMO) be given control and freedom on where those parts for their prototype race car come from, either self made or sourced from a supplier of their own choice.

 

Which is pretty much how it works for the gearbox right now...


Edited by Cornholio, 28 February 2019 - 12:40.


#131 Peat

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 13:40

I agree, but suggesting (as some seem to be) that standardised gearbox inards is a step away from a spec-series is equally disingenuous. 



#132 7MGTEsup

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 16:06

This is a disgrace!! I mean look how much the standard ECU has destroyed the sport...............



#133 Nathan

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 16:43

McLaren have clearly used it to dominate the sport and learn all about everyone else.

#134 pdac

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 20:36

This is BS. We should be going the other way! The teams should be made to produce their own tyres, brakes and electronics. Driver's should be forced to stitch their own suits and make their own helmets too. 

Keep it pure!


(get a bloody grip!)

 

Now that's just being silly. Teams should make everything - they should make their own drivers not get others to drive their cars. If they can grow meat in a lab, surely they can grow a driver.



#135 pdac

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 20:37

Not pure enough. They should mine their own metals and refine their own oils and fuel from crude that they’ve drilled themselves.

 

The should make their own governing body too.



#136 Cornholio

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 00:23

This is a disgrace!! I mean look how much the standard ECU has destroyed the sport...............

 

The thing is though, swap ECU for tyres and remove the sarcasm and I'd actually agree (quite strongly) with that statement.

 

I think the reason for the ECU wasn't so much about standardising parts of the car in the name of yet more cost-cutting/equalisation, but more to get rid of the whole traction control debate. They actually had to re-allow it mid-2001 after they had to admit they couldn't reliably police it. 

 

Which sounds quite hypocritical yes. Although I wasn't overly enthusiastic about the spec ECU, and wished they could have found a better way, I just got that there was a higher motive beyond "equalise as much as we can get away with"


Edited by Cornholio, 01 March 2019 - 00:25.


#137 goldenboy

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 02:31

Here lies the problem. F1 is only elite because that's what we're told. IndyCar has much closer racing with many standard parts. I watch both. If you want the rich to get richer then stay with the system we've got now. F1, like the rest of the world, needs to adapt to change.
Let's be honest, the oil's running out. By 2030 FE will be king. So the next 10 years in F1 should be as close to an even playing field as possible. If not, It will be dominated by Merc and SF until things change for the mid-pack teams. Kinda boring when basically 2-3 teams win every week. It's an unfair advantage.

The oil is not running out and FE will not be king.
I'm not at all against standardised parts though. I can really see the case on both sides. Really though, I feel something has to change.

#138 Fatgadget

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 19:41

Xtrac is a reputable, capable manufacturer. They'll do fine.

 

The H pattern in F1 is history. 

We need to get past archaic delusions of days gone past. 

 

The FIA/Liberty are going to implement a budget cap whether we like it or not. And it starts with this.

Agreed 100% your first sentence.

 

As for your second.Why halt  development of further technological  innovations  now?



#139 Sterzo

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Posted 01 March 2019 - 23:17

Agreed 100% your first sentence.

 

As for your second.Why halt  development of further technological  innovations  now?

Because the escalating cost of F1 engineering has already damaged the sport and could, if unchecked, lead to it collapsing.



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#140 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 02 March 2019 - 00:59

The oil is not running out and FE will not be king.
I'm not at all against standardised parts though. I can really see the case on both sides. Really though, I feel something has to change.

OK, I may have underestimated the worlds oil supply, but I see fossil fuel burning engines slowly getting phased out in the next decade. Ozone erosion, Greenhouse effect etc. will dictate how racing continues past 2030. imo  

FE, admittedly a tough watch, has attracted some pretty big players. BMW, Jag, Merc, Nissan, and Porsche. These manufactures are playing the long game and betting on battery power come 2030. I see F1/Liberty trying to even the field to better the show. Gotta lower costs to close the gap.

 

Agreed 100% your first sentence.

 

As for your second.Why halt  development of further technological  innovations  now?

In short, money  and need.

Why spend more money on new, built for F1 only, technologies?

I'm all for innovation, but does the world need it?



#141 Wuzak

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Posted 02 March 2019 - 09:06

Agreed 100% your first sentence.

 

As for your second.Why halt  development of further technological  innovations  now?

 

Because the rules effectively limit the innovation now, so the development tends to be expensive for small gains in performance.