21 replies to this topic

[chr1s]

I never thought much about this at the time, but whilst re-watching the 1979 Argentine Grand Prix on YouTube I wondered what prompted Ligier to switch to Cosworth engines after three seasons with Matra. Anyone know the back ground behind this decision?

[Mallory Dan]

French State politics I guess. Ligier was well-connected with Mitterand et al I believe, and Matra state-owned of course. I always assumed he wanted to use the DFV, but was persuaded/bribed to use the Matra. 

[scheivlak]

French State politics I guess. Ligier was well-connected with Mitterand et al I believe, and Matra state-owned of course. I always assumed he wanted to use the DFV, but was persuaded/bribed to use the Matra. 

MItterand only became president in 1981 so that has nothing to do with it.

 

Apart from that, the question is not about the change from Cosworth to Matra but from Matra to Cosworth 

[AAGR]

Power, dear boy, power .... plus the fact that the DFV (rather than the Matra vee-12) was probably a more space-efficient way of allowing the best type of new-fangled underbody aerodynamics to be used on the 1979 car.

 

Opposing views, please line up below ....

[philippe7]

MItterand only became president in 1981 so that has nothing to do with it.

 

 

 

And Matra was not "state owned" before being nationalized (for a few years only) in 1981 - although the main client of the weaponry division (the largest part of Matra's activity by far) was of course the french army.  And Ligier's main sponsor was of course the state-owned tobacco firm Seita. So yes, obviously they had some state "support" in a way.

 

From memory (but I'm pretty sure of that part) the decision to stop providing engines at the end of 1978 was the one of Matra, not Ligier - and this purely for economical reasons, lack of success and no will to fund a major overhauling of the MS76 engine, which was becoming necessary . So Ligier didn't have much choice then but to turn to Cosworth - which of course proved beneficial in the end (or quite quickly, rather ...) .

 

The causes are more complex for the "backward" move, the return to Matra power for the 1981 and 82 seasons. There was a complicated partnership between Peugeot (who had just bought Simca and wanted to revive the Talbot brand) , Matra and Ligier, with capital investment involved in part of the deal *, and Matra's share in the deal was to supply an updated version of the V12 for 1981 ( the MS81)  while they developed a new Tubo V6 1500cc engine for talbot-Peugeot. But there was a major disagreement at the end of 1981 between Matra and Peugeot as to the amount of the bill for said turbo engine, which (although fully completed) was never delivered to Ligier, who had to make do with the V12 for a final season in 1982.

 

It is interesting though, that Ligier's most successful seasons were when the choice of their engine was precisely not "their" choice ..... 1979 with the Cosworth (for lack of anything else) and 1981 with the revamped V-12 which was originally meant to be just a stop-gap measure....

 

* edit : the above was from memory, after a quick research, it appears that in 1980 PSA having acquired Chrysler Europe owned 45% of Matra Automobiles - and took a 70% share in Ligier which was rebadged "Talbot Ligier" to promote the Talbot brand which they were trying to revive - but that was a total failure, at the same time PSA found themselves in an unexpected difficult financial situation ( the purchase of Citroën, then Chrysler was proving difficult to digest) , and withdrew from they shareholding in Ligier and Matra at the end of 1982

Edited by philippe7, 28 February 2019 - 05:03.

[Nemo1965]

And Matra was not "state owned" before being nationalized (for a few years only) in 1981 - although the main client of the weaponry division (the largest part of Matra's activity by far) was of course the french army.  And Ligier's main sponsor was of course the state-owned tobacco firm Seita. So yes, obviously they had some state "support" in a way.

 

From memory (but I'm pretty sure of that part) the decision to stop providing engines at the end of 1978 was the one of Matra, not Ligier - and this purely for economical reasons, lack of success and no will to fund a major overhauling of the MS76 engine, which was becoming necessary . So Ligier didn't have much choice then but to turn to Cosworth - which of course proved beneficial in the end (or quite quickly, rather ...) .

 

The causes are more complex for the "backward" move, the return to Matra power for the 1981 and 82 seasons. There was a complicated partnership between Peugeot (who had just bought Simca and wanted to revive the Talbot brand) , Matra and Ligier, with capital investment involved in part of the deal *, and Matra's share in the deal was to supply an updated version of the V12 for 1981 ( the MS81)  while they developed a new Tubo V6 1500cc engine for talbot-Peugeot. But there was a major disagreement at the end of 1981 between Matra and Peugeot as to the amount of the bill for said turbo engine, which (although fully completed) was never delivered to Ligier, who had to make do with the V12 for a final season in 1982.

 

It is interesting though, that Ligier's most successful seasons were when the choice of their engine was precisely not "their" choice ..... 1979 with the Cosworth (for lack of anything else) and 1981 with the revamped V-12 which was originally meant to be just a stop-gap measure....

 

* edit : the above was from memory, after a quick research, it appears that in 1980 PSA having acquired Chrysler Europe owned 45% of Matra Automobiles - and took a 70% share in Ligier which was rebadged "Talbot Ligier" to promote the Talbot brand which they were trying to revive - but that was a total failure, at the same time PSA found themselves in an unexpected difficult financial situation ( the purchase of Citroën, then Chrysler was proving difficult to digest) , and withdrew from they shareholding in Ligier and Matra at the end of 1982

Excellent post. I want to add (because I just read about it, again!) back then there was a powerstruggle between FISA and FOCA. There was even talk of two championships, one by FOCA (wing-cars, no turbo's) and one by FISA (turbo-cars, no wing-cars).

 

Guy Ligier never was sure which side he should take. His cars were wingcars AND blindingly fast with Cosworth-engines in 1979 and 1980 and from that perspective he wanted to stay within the view of a F1-championship run by FOCA. More-over: there was serious acrimony between Ligier and the other French team: Renault (turbo's, remember).

 

On the other hand: he was sponsored by Gitanes which, IMHO, were much more inclined to run with the factory-teams. And then came Matra... Matra in 1980 (like mentioned above) took over ownership (but not control!) of Ligier, and the idea was to develop a Peugeot F1-turbo, making the Ligier-team a whole French affair. 

 

Guy Ligier was not a tough guy but not the most political savy person. In my view he was bounced back and forth between camps in those years, often compromised his own team by choosing for French manufactureres of parts when English would have better (skirt material, wheelrims) and IMHO did not do a good job managing the team. The constant switching of engines brought him success in some cases but it was not real an effect of conscious choices. 

Edited by Nemo1965, 28 February 2019 - 10:42.

[FLB]

Philippe, I can't find my copy, but that's pretty much what I remember from reading Renaud de Laborderie's Livre d'or de la Formule Un 1978. The decision came around Monza time. It should also be noted that Ligier had some experience with the DFV at Le Mans (with the JS3).

[chr1s]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply to my question, particularly to
Philippe for you very detailed and interesting answer.

[moffspeed]

Of course there was the opposite swap 4 years earlier when Shadow inexplicably looked at swapping the DFV powered DN5 for the Matra V12 motivated DN7.

 

It sounded glorious but that was about it...

[Cornholio]

Regarding Ligier (and briefly Shadow as mentioned above) trying out the Matra mid-70s, was part of that a (misplaced) belief that the DFV had had its day after 8 or so years? Ferrari were in the process of winning three back-to-back constructors titles with their 12 cylinder and had been quick in 1974. Was it felt that a well-sorted engine with more cylinders could give an advantage? Brabham would also try out the Alfa, although I've read there may have been commercial considerations from Bernie behind that one.

 

Genuine question by the way, I know the DFV would ultimately remain the non-turbo engine of choice  for another decade, and was probably the more advantageous package for ground effect which was a couple of years away from becoming a thing in F1. Just wondering how the landscape looked at the time without hindsight.

[Henri Greuter]

Regarding Ligier (and briefly Shadow as mentioned above) trying out the Matra mid-70s, was part of that a (misplaced) belief that the DFV had had its day after 8 or so years? Ferrari were in the process of winning three back-to-back constructors titles with their 12 cylinder and had been quick in 1974. Was it felt that a well-sorted engine with more cylinders could give an advantage? Brabham would also try out the Alfa, although I've read there may have been commercial considerations from Bernie behind that one.
 
Genuine question by the way, I know the DFV would ultimately remain the non-turbo engine of choice  for another decade, and was probably the more advantageous package for ground effect which was a couple of years away from becoming a thing in F1. Just wondering how the landscape looked at the time without hindsight.

The first heydays of the Twelves was in 1971 and when for a brief time it appeared as if the Twelves had a chance to take over the position of the Cosworth. In fact, there is one race in '70 or '71, I forgot which one, but in that race only one single DFV finished in the points! All other places were taken by Ferrari, BRM and Matra.

Somehow, the Twelves went down again by the start of 1972 and that was pretty much the end for a while until Ferrari unlocked all its potential.

However; during '77 there was a trend of the twelve gaining more interest and popularity again thanks to the success of Ferrari, whlie ligier-Matra also won a race and Brabham-Alfa showed flashes of potential too.
The question shall allways remain what could have happened if two events that did happen had not taken place:
First the invention of Ground effects that made V type of engines mandatory and thus spelled the end of the line for the Italian Flat-12s.
Secondly: Renault introducing the turbo in 1977 and showing a bit of promise and the potential during 1978.

Now had these two inventions not taken place, then there is decent reason to assume that Ferrari would have continued with their Flat-12, Alfa likely have done the same. Maybe some French companies would have found the support for Matra to keep the V12 alive as well.

But things went different as we all know.....

[Henri Greuter]

Of course there was the opposite swap 4 years earlier when Shadow inexplicably looked at swapping the DFV powered DN5 for the Matra V12 motivated DN7.
 
It sounded glorious but that was about it...

I saw that DN7-Matra last August at Laguna Seca....

I still find it difficult to believe that V12's had any chance to be competitive within F1 during the 3 liter era. What an awfully large, heavy, ungainly piece of hardware compared with a Cosworth....

[moffspeed]

I saw that DN7-Matra last August at Laguna Seca....

I still find it difficult to believe that V12's had any chance to be competitive within F1 during the 3 liter era. What an awfully large, heavy, ungainly piece of hardware compared with a Cosworth....

Quite agree, and it would be fascinating to access any contemporary accounts as to why Don Nichols & Co. could have contemplated that the Matra may have given them the unfair advantage. Maybe it was just the "grass is greener" approach that has tripped up so many teams over the years.

 

Having said that a Shadow with an even larger boat anchor out the back is one of my all-time favourite racing cars - the F5000 DN6 complete with Dodge motivation...

[philippe7]

When Matra pulled the plug on their racing programme at the end of 1974, Ligier took over the sponsorship deal with the Seita tobacco firm (Gitanes) with plans set to enter F1 in 1976. To this effect, they recruited a large share of Matra's chassis division staff (headed by Gérard Ducarouge)  and it was agreed that Matra would keep and fund some sort of "dormant cell" for their engine department (headed by Georges Martin) while preparing to re-enter the arena one year later. So clearly Matra was not looking for a client for 1975, quite the contrary since the deal with Ligier was already set and supplying another team might have appeared like somehow unloyal. What comes out from most sources is that it was in fact Don Nichols who was insisting to try the Matra engine, and that Jean-Pierre Jarier (a former Matra sportscar driver) was instrumental in persuading Georges Martin to accept a deal - which was short-lived in the end since the DN7 package did not appear to offer a major improvement on the DN5 ... although in terms of  sheer speed, in the two Grand Prix that the DN7 entered - both on "fast" circuits admittedly- Jarier qualified (just a fraction) quicker than Tom Pryce on the Cosworth-engined DN5. So the picture is probably not as bleak as we seem to remember.

 

As to any "hidden" reasons, which might not have been public at the time, I remember having read a while ago than Don Nichols had been told early on by UOP (who was by far Shadow's main source of income) that they would stop the sponsorship deal at the end of 1975, and that in his quest for a new partner Don Nichols was hoping to negociate with Elf, who had just terminated their long agreement with Ken Tyrrell.  And that he probably thought that presenting a french N°1 driver and french engine package to Elf would be more attractive. But Elf had already decided to invest on Renault's turbo sportscar's programme (with F1 to follow) so of course nothing materialized.

Edited by philippe7, 01 March 2019 - 21:04.

[StanBarrett2]

 Don Nichols had been told early on by UOP (who was by far Shadow's main source of income) 

You mean don wasn't uop (upside down and back to front) ??

[scheivlak]

The first heydays of the Twelves was in 1971 and when for a brief time it appeared as if the Twelves had a chance to take over the position of the Cosworth. In fact, there is one race in '70 or '71, I forgot which one, but in that race only one single DFV finished in the points! All other places were taken by Ferrari, BRM and Matra.

..

The 1970 Austrian GP when Stommelen finished third in his Brabham-Cosworth behind two Ferraris and ahead of 2 BRMs, a Matra and Giunti's Ferrari. He lucked into that third place when Beltoise's Matra had to come in for fuel just before the end.

[philippe7]

You mean don wasn't uop (upside down and back to front) ??

 

 I don' think he was , no ....

 

https://www.uop.com/...us/uop-history/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UOP_LLC

 

Don's own company was AVS (Advanced Vehicles Systems) , hence the naming "AVS-Shadow" of the original CanAm "mini-car"

Edited by philippe7, 01 March 2019 - 23:41.

[Henri Greuter]

The 1970 Austrian GP when Stommelen finished third in his Brabham-Cosworth behind two Ferraris and ahead of 2 BRMs, a Matra and Giunti's Ferrari. He lucked into that third place when Beltoise's Matra had to come in for fuel just before the end.

 

Thanks! 

I recalled such a race result. That must have been pretty much the worst ever for Cosworth during the '70's.

I don't bother  right now to look it up but I wonder if there is one other race in the '70s in which so many 12s made it into the top six, and or 12's&turbo's combined keeping the Cosworths out of the points.

Same for what has been the first ever race since that race in which no Cosworth made it into the points. The latter might have been in '83 when we got more and more turbos, otherwise '84...

[Tim Murray]

The 1971 Dutch GP had four V12s in the top six:

1. Ickx - Ferrari
2. Rodriguez - BRM
3. Regazzoni - Ferrari
4. Peterson - March
5. Surtees - Surtees
6. Siffert - BRM
(7. Ganley - BRM)

At that time it did seem that the days of the DFV were numbered.

[Collombin]

Same for what has been the first ever race since that race in which no Cosworth made it into the points. The latter might have been in '83 when we got more and more turbos, otherwise '84...

Yes, 1983 Italian GP by the look of it, and no Cosworth then scored points for the rest of that season.

[BRG]

The 1970 Austrian GP when Stommelen finished third in his Brabham-Cosworth behind two Ferraris and ahead of 2 BRMs, a Matra and Giunti's Ferrari. He lucked into that third place when Beltoise's Matra had to come in for fuel just before the end.

Not sure that race proved anything about any innate V12 superiority.  Stommelen qualified back in 17th, yet still got his ageing BT33 DFV into the podium places and was still on the lead lap.  The fact that Stewart, Rindt, Hulme, Surtees. & Cevert all succumbed to mechanical woes - largely engine, to be fair - suggests that the V12s had an open goal in which they certainly put the ball.. 

[arttidesco]

Philippe, I can't find my copy, but that's pretty much what I remember from reading Renaud de Laborderie's Livre d'or de la Formule Un 1978. The decision came around Monza time. It should also be noted that Ligier had some experience with the DFV at Le Mans (with the JS3).

 

Not only the DFV powered JS3 of 1971, but also a pair of JS2 coupe's in 1975. The Chassiuel / Lafosse driven example finished second behind the Bell / Ickx and ahead of the Schuppan / Jaussaud similarly DFV powered Mirages at Le Mans that year, before Ligier switched all of it's attention to the 1976 F1 programme.