90 replies to this topic

[johnwilliamdavies]

Getting a point for the fastest lap - https://www.racefans...st-lap-in-2019/

 

 

According to sources, research undertaken by F1 commercial rights holder Liberty Media shows that fans favour such a change as it could potentially ‘spice up’ a race towards the end, particularly where front-runners have dropped out of contention.

 

Awarding a point for pole position was also considered by Liberty, but the concept dropped due to concerns that a driver who needs a single point to clinch a world championship could do so on Saturday, which would in turn detract from the race.

Edited by johnwilliamdavies, 06 March 2019 - 16:41.

[7MGTEsup]

Was it Indycar that used to have a point for pole, a point for fastest lap and a point for most laps lead? Or did I just imagine it all?

[Ben1445]

Ah so the old out of sight out of mind concept or not in my back yard....

For carbon emissions side without any effort to clean up the electricity source, yeah kind of.
For air pollution side it’s more a case of ‘out of our cities, out of our lungs’

[Stephane]

Personnally, i'd prefer no points, at all. Just races.

[AustinF1]

Ah so the old out of sight out of mind concept or not in my back yard....

Yeah that's just moving the problem, not remedying it.

[Kalmake]

There is a huge gap from one lap pace to race pace. Fastest lap point would go to someone who is out of points with nothing to lose so they start doing "qualifying" runs instead. Nonsense.

[PayasYouRace]

Was it Indycar that used to have a point for pole, a point for fastest lap and a point for most laps lead? Or did I just imagine it all?

 

Various rules over the years. At the moment Indycar uses 1 point for pole, 1 for leading a lap and 2 for leading the most laps, which isn't a lot when a win is 50 and you'll get at least 5 for just showing up.

 

All the older systems are listed here https://en.wikipedia...scoring_systems

[PayasYouRace]

Getting a point for the fastest lap - https://www.racefans...st-lap-in-2019/

 

I hate that argument that the championship could be settled on a saturday, as if that's any worse than the championship being settled a few races early detracting from all those races. It also ignores the equally valid possibility that a driver could just about keep himself in the fight by getting pole on the last race, where otherwise he'd have lost the title at the previous race. That said, if a driver is able to settle a championship on a Saturday like that, it wouldn't have been a very close championship battle and the race would likely have not had much of an interest from a championship point of view.

[TomNokoe]

"I think we want to make sure we’re always looking for ways to improve the fan experience but in doing that respect the history of the sport and respect what makes the sport great. We’re not going to gimmick the sport up."

Chase Carey, yesterday, in Geneva.

Their reasoning behind no points for pole is bizarre. The scenario of a championship being won on Saturday is highly unlikely.

It's highly illogical for Liberty to have effectively concluded that FL is worth more than pole position.

Edited by TomNokoe, 06 March 2019 - 17:23.

[AustinF1]

The average life span of a car in the U.S. is 12 years, so even if 8-9 years isn't 'great', it would come out better.  Batteries have a higher ceiling when it comes to becoming 'more and more efficient' than hybrid/ICE.  ICE is at the stage where a 1% increase in efficiency is a huge step, batteries have really just begun such intensive development.  I'm a bit miffed why increasing capacity would trend dirtier when such a thing requires better efficiencies to accomplish. 

 

I tell ya where the big enviro gain is to be had and that is street level where millions of people have to directly breath in the **** coming out of the tailpipes.  At least with batteries, the crap emitted into the air has a chance to spread out and dissipate.  A bulk of the hazardous processing takes place in the boonies.  It's certainly not going to 'smog' up the streets of London, Paris, Rome etc. as happens now during the rush hours.

I don't think it's quite that simple when a great many people tend to trade in their cars for new ones every 3 or 4 years, esp people who drive more expensive cars like the big, fast Teslas. They're driving the demand for more of these cars to be built, and these are the cars whose manufacture creates the largest carbon footprint, by far. Add to that the fact that the big, fast Teslas aren't really very green at all, and it's hard to see how they're helping the environment. And I was being generous when I used the 8 or 9 year figure. There are so many EVs out there that are Teslas that the average time to 'break even' is likely much longer.

 

Batteries might have a higher efficiency ceiling, but we've been hearing this forever. The progress in increasing their efficiency/range has been staggeringly slow for as long as their have been electric cars - which is as long as there have been cars.

 

Increasing capacity quickly and inexpensively, which would be most likely to happen, is what would make it dirtier. You can't significantly increase capacity quickly by building nuclear power plants, etc. You do it by building more fossil fuel plants. 

Edited by AustinF1, 06 March 2019 - 18:41.

[Ben1445]

Yeah that's just moving the problem, not remedying it.

In a straight swap of city dwelling cars for EVs today then for carbon emissions yes. For the air pollution that builds up higher concentrations in cities because of ICE cars it’s public health benefit.

If electricity production can me made clean as well then it’s a double whammy benefit.

Let’s be clear as well, the status-quo option is air pollution and carbon emissions from cars in cities from cars AND from big countryside power stations. So that’s not really a workable option.

[Ben1445]

I don't think it's quite that simple when a great many people tend to trade in their cars for new ones every 3 or 4 years, ...

Kind of irrelevant because there is a magical thing called the second hand car market.

[AustinF1]

Kind of irrelevant because there is a magical thing called the second hand car market.

Sure there is, but we don't know how well these EVs will do on the secondary market (i.e. how much they'll be utilized). Replacing the batteries in these cars is often almost as expensive as buying a car. How many people are going to buy one of these cars at 4, 6, 8 years old with that in mind? 

[Neno]

https://www.racefans...st-lap-in-2019/

 

 

Imagine Bottas finishing higher than other drivers because of fastest laps while being a poorer driver 

[SpaceHorseParty]

It used to be on Viasat Sport Baltic, right? What happened?

Modern Times Group (owner of Viasat) pulled out of the Baltics at the end of 2017. Reportedly, they still own the rights to Formula One broadcasts in the Baltics, and have tried tried to resell them to local broadcasters (including All Media Baltics, which is the successor to MTG's Baltic arm; Viasat Sport Baltic is now called TVPlay Sports). They even blocked Formula One broadcasts on the Viasat Motor channel in the Baltics, apparently to make the offer more attractive.

 

None of the broadcasters bit. Some have showed highlights (sometimes not even in the following week), but that's it. In Latvia, the only legal way to watch live Formula One racing is to watch RTL. I suspect the situation is the same in Estonia and Lithuania.

 

The weirdest thing about it is that MTG extended its Formula One deal in 2014, and it was supposed to expire at the end of 2017 in the Baltics and at the end of 2018 in the Nordics (a consequence of which is that F1TV Pro has become available in the Nordics). Why did MTG extend the deal for the Baltics if they sold their business here?

[PayasYouRace]

Bit of thread overlap going on so I've merged all recent discussion of Liberty's plans for F1 into this thread.

[PayasYouRace]

https://www.racefans...st-lap-in-2019/

 

 

 

Imagine Bottas finishing higher than other drivers because of fastest laps while being a poorer driver 

 

If he's doing that it must be because Mercedes have really dropped the ball and are fighting for about 10th place anyway.

[loki]

Sure there is, but we don't know how well these EVs will do on the secondary market (i.e. how much they'll be utilized). Replacing the batteries in these cars is often almost as expensive as buying a car. How many people are going to buy one of these cars at 4, 6, 8 years old with that in mind? 

EVs sell well into the secondary market.  The battery replacement cost issue has come a long way as there are many third parties that rebuild the cells.  A Nissan battery warranty is 8 years or 100k miles which is much better than the 3 years 36k miles I got with my Focus.  The Leaf battery replacement from the dealer is $5500 including labor.  Mitchell is telling me to replace the long block in the Focus the estimate is about $4300 from the dealer.  I can get enough rebuilt Leaf modules to do it myself for just over a grand or close to what doing the Focus short block would cost me doing it in my shop.  EVs will do well in urban areas or in the desert southwest where many of us have solar, there are several charging stations and the sun shines almost all the time.  It's not a magic bullet or some sort of panacea to solve emissions and transportation issues.  It's only another tool in the quiver.  

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

https://www.racefans...st-lap-in-2019/

 

Imagine Bottas finishing higher than other drivers because of fastest laps while being a poorer driver 

 

I imagine most drivers with a gap of 25 seconds or more to the car behind will take this opportunity and pit in the last five laps. Recharge the battery and then have one to two tries at setting a quick lap.

[Clatter]

Tis why I said catalyst, not a cause. It appears to have sped up the process.

Don't know about elsewhere, but in the UK the government has been steadily increasing the tax on diesel so that it no longer has the cost advantage over petrol. Whilst they may state this is due to pollution and health concerns, i don't believe them. It's still to do with tax and the fact that as more people were switching to diesel they were losing revenue. All this was still before dieselgate
and is ongoing. What is worse is that the last Labour government were encouraging the switch to diesel as it was seen as better due to lower Co2 emissions. When they realised this was wrong the price shot up and motorists now feel unfairly penalised. This has led to a mistrust of government and the lower sales of diesel. Tax, not dieselgate is the issue.

[Nathan]

Yeah that's just moving the problem, not remedying it.

 

What do you do when there is literally no remedy?  Do we walk? Go back to just having horses **** on the streets?

 

Just like we try not to build power plants and refineries in areas of large populations it is logical to minimize an impact that's hard to get around.  

 

But the NIMBY-ism here makes sense.  Make millions and millions choke on something, or move it to where much less choke on it.  End of the day some area has to be exposed to this.

[turssi]

Why not lose points for qualifying outside of top10?

[Clatter]

Why not lose points for qualifying outside of top10?

 

Why should they penalised for committing no offence?

[Nathan]

For F1, points for qualifying and fastest laps only seem to exasperate competitive differences on the scorecards.

[Dolph]

It used to be on Viasat Sport Baltic, right? What happened?

 

That's right. I think their strategy is to wait 4-5 years until all following of F1 dies out in Estonia and then come in with they product that by then almost nobody wants.

[Dolph]

https://www.racefans...st-lap-in-2019/

 

 

Imagine Bottas finishing higher than other drivers because of fastest laps while being a poorer driver 

 

That statement makes no sense on so many levels.

[Dolph]

Was it Indycar that used to have a point for pole, a point for fastest lap and a point for most laps lead? Or did I just imagine it all?

 

 

there you go:

https://en.wikipedia...ps_2013–present

[RacingGreen]

F1 comes up with these crazy ideas every couple of years. Do you remember double points for the last race or the elimination qualifying at Melbourne a couple of years ago? None address any of the underlying problems with the sport, and none seem to last long. A point for fastest lap, it's just another rather silly "spice up a boring race for the TV" sort of gimmick. The sort of thing you'd expect from someone more interested in the media coverage than the racing itself. Having said that I suppose as everyone knows these is a point for fastest lap it won't really hurt the competition that much as long as nobody is stupid enough to think it is such a success that it morphs into 5 points for fastest lap, 4 points for second fastest etc. as that really would change the sport in a fundamental way for the worse. 

Edited by RacingGreen, 06 March 2019 - 20:08.

[alframsey]

If they are serious about truly expanding the fan base then they will not renew any pay TV contracts once they are up. Seriously that move makes no sense to me it just limits the fan base ability to access the sport and doesn't help attracts new fans because why would they pay for a sport they no little to nothing of?

[alframsey]

F1 comes up with these crazy ideas every couple of years. Do you remember double points for the last race or the elimination qualifying at Melbourne a couple of years ago? None address any of the underlying problems with the sport, and none seem to last long. A point for fastest lap, it's just another rather silly "spice up a boring race for the TV" sort of gimmick. The sort of thing you'd expect from someone more interested in the media coverage than the racing itself. Having said that I suppose as everyone knows these is a point for fastest lap it won't really hurt the competition that much as long as nobody is stupid enough to think it is such a success that it morphs into 5 points for fastest lap, 4 points for second fastest etc. as that really would change the sport in a fundamental way for the worse. 

I don't like a point for fastest lap because it just goes to further concentrate the points haul in the hands of two - three teams and those with a car capable of achieving a fastest time.

[Lights]

Just no. Go away with your gimmicks. Focus on improving the racing at the core and shut up about any other ideas because they're not going to be positive for the sport.

[Sterzo]

A point for fastest lap? No point for fastest lap?

[pdac]

For F1, points for qualifying and fastest laps only seem to exasperate competitive differences on the scorecards.

 

Extra points for Mercedes or Ferrari or Red Bull - no one else. They should give 10 points for the slowest car instead.

[SenorSjon]

Really annoying how this comes up at the last moment, just a week before the season starts.

[johnmhinds]

Really annoying how this comes up at the last moment, just a week before the season starts.

It's almost as if they want F1 to be in the news a lot before the season starts.

 

Why are you all still falling for the same tricks Bernie was doing for decades...

[RacingGreen]

I don't like a point for fastest lap because it just goes to further concentrate the points haul in the hands of two - three teams and those with a car capable of achieving a fastest time.

 

It's a point you can earn by going fast, not a point you earn by overtaking someone. It's almost an admission that you can't race and overtake properly in F1 these days.

[turssi]

What about a point for each overtake?

[SenorSjon]

A point for not using DRS the whole race. 

[PayasYouRace]

It's a point you can earn by going fast, not a point you earn by overtaking someone. It's almost an admission that you can't race and overtake properly in F1 these days.

 

Do you think that was the admission being made in the 1950s?

[RacingGreen]

Do you think that was the admission being made in the 1950s?

 

In the 50's it was an admission you should get a reward for being fastest even if you broke down and didn't finish. Now increased reliability that isn't such a problem.

[Tsarwash]

Sure there is, but we don't know how well these EVs will do on the secondary market (i.e. how much they'll be utilized). Replacing the batteries in these cars is often almost as expensive as buying a car. How many people are going to buy one of these cars at 4, 6, 8 years old with that in mind? 

I'm not supporting this opinion piece, I just want to throw this opinion into the discussion. (And I think this discussion may be best to be split away from the Liberty thread.)

https://www.theguard...nment-phase-out