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Mercedes AMG F1 Team Thread (drivers, management, rumours and gossip!)


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#5051 SonGoku

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 17:32

The Verstappen family isn't the classy bunch, as a fellow countrymen I know enough about them, so don't expect anything rational coming from them. It's a shame junior follows his dad, who didn't have a lot of respect for Lewis to begin with.

Edited by SonGoku, 13 August 2019 - 17:32.


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#5052 shure

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 17:41

Let's keep in mind that the only time Lewis and Max actually raced each other this season, Lewis came out on top, despite starting from 3rd only. 

 

It took Max until his fifth season and 11 races of Gasly as his teammate to finally secure his first pole position.

 

He only managed to win the 2 races where Lewis couldn't compete for a number of reasons. 

 

Max is racing without a reference point in his team this season. When Lewis gets beaten by a couple tenths by Bottas, it's Lewis supposedly underperforming. When Gasly was closer to Max, it was because Gasly improved.

 

Max is in a position where he can only win. And when he doesn't, it's because the Mercedes is too good of a car. 

 

And Lewis? Can't really win. It's the car when he wins, and when he doesn't it's because he's getting old!   ;)

I don't see the relevance of this.  Max had no tyres left.  We don't know if that's because he didn't manage them properly or if that's because they wouldn't have lasted that long anyway.  We don't know if lewis was better of if the Merc was the better car that day.  Could have been both.  But regardless, you can't read anything concrete into it.

 

Agree with you on the final sentence.  Hamilton is in a bit of a corner there.  But to be fair every dominant driver gets that and it was the same with Schumacher towards the end. Don't think it's personal, but more of a dominance fatigue kind of thing



#5053 shure

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 17:44

The Verstappen family isn't the classy bunch, as a fellow countrymen I know enough about them, so don't expect anything rational coming from them. It's a shame junior follows his dad, who didn't have a lot of respect for Lewis to begin with.

Well I'm also a fellow countryman but I disagree that gives me any greater perspective on them.

 

All drivers say things they may have cause to regret later.  Or have we all forgotten about the monkeys at the back? Doesn't mean the Hamilton that said that years ago is the same guy now and it also doesn't mean he was evil when he said it.  Maybe a bit thoughtless, but that's it



#5054 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 17:57

I don't see the relevance of this.  Max had no tyres left.  We don't know if that's because he didn't manage them properly or if that's because they wouldn't have lasted that long anyway.  We don't know if lewis was better of if the Merc was the better car that day.  Could have been both.  But regardless, you can't read anything concrete into it.

 

Agree with you on the final sentence.  Hamilton is in a bit of a corner there.  But to be fair every dominant driver gets that and it was the same with Schumacher towards the end. Don't think it's personal, but more of a dominance fatigue kind of thing

But you could say this about any driver who has won/lost a race......The fact that Lewis was able to beat Max was a testament of a total team effort...



#5055 MKSixer

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 17:57

what makes you think people are only reading into the latest 2 race form from Max?  His season to date compares very favourably with Hamilton's, not just the last two races.  Whichever driver you consider to have driven the best so far this year, it's not ridiculous to choose either

Because it is what the press reports and, indeed, many in the other fora have stated.  

Before Austria and Germany, Max had won exactly zero races and the one he won was because the Mercedes was thermally compromised.  Before Hungary he had exactly zero pole positions in his 5th year of Formula One.  

 

In Germany HAM put on a masterclass before the bad call on the tires.  VER was properly placed to take advantage of misfortune which is part of driving well at the sharp end just as HAM took advantage of the retirement by LEC.  VER has had a good season but to say that it's on par with the person who has the most pole positions, is working on his 6th WDC and has achieved the best race results start of his entire career is a bit of a stretch.


Edited by MKSixer, 13 August 2019 - 19:26.


#5056 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 18:05

Let's keep in mind that the only time Lewis and Max actually raced each other this season, Lewis came out on top, despite starting from 3rd only.

It took Max until his fifth season and 11 races of Gasly as his teammate to finally secure his first pole position.

He only managed to win the 2 races where Lewis couldn't compete for a number of reasons.

Max is racing without a reference point in his team this season. When Lewis gets beaten by a couple tenths by Bottas, it's Lewis supposedly underperforming. When Gasly was closer to Max, it was because Gasly improved.

Max is in a position where he can only win. And when he doesn't, it's because the Mercedes is too good of a car.

And Lewis? Can't really win. It's the car when he wins, and when he doesn't it's because he's getting old!  ;)

Max has earned it with how he has driven the past 18months... that said, I think it’s a bubble that won’t grow much larger for the rest of the season with exception of a race or 2 and only if Ferari dont capitalize on those weekends.

Edited by Paco, 13 August 2019 - 18:33.


#5057 LightningMcQueen

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 18:10

Hmm, Mercedes lost due to extreme heat in Austria and because of a mistake in the wet in hockenheim, otherwise they could easily have won every race. Max and RBR have done fantastically but I can’t see them getting one over on RBR in this rules era.. in 2021- all bets are off. Newest typically excels when regs change but with simplified aero and spending cap it’s anyone’s guess.

#5058 Paco

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 18:34

RB have a very good hype marketing department and maximizing their recent form better then most do in F1. Let’s not forgot RB is a marketing company through and through and it’s not a surprise how well they are working the marketing machine with a bit of success...

#5059 w1Y

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 19:02

Max is deifnately a talent but I do hope he manages to keep his feet on the ground. Almost everyone is blowing smoke up his ass and its quite disrespectful to start attacking a 5 x wdc's quality.

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#5060 shure

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 20:17

But you could say this about any driver who has won/lost a race......The fact that Lewis was able to beat Max was a testament of a total team effort...

you could, but the post was making a point of the fact that Lewis beat Max but given they had different equipment I question what exactly the significance of that is?  Lewis also beat e.g Leclerc - should we read anything more into that?



#5061 shure

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 20:30

Because it is what the press reports and, indeed, many in the other fora have stated.  

Before Austria and Germany, Max had won exactly zero races and the one he won was because the Mercedes was thermally compromised.  Before Hungary he had exactly zero pole positions in his 5th year of Formula One.  

 

In Germany HAM put on a masterclass before the bad call on the tires.  VER was properly placed to take advantage of misfortune which is part of driving well at the sharp end just as HAM took advantage of the retirement by LEC.  VER has had a good season but to say that it's on par with the person who has the most pole positions, is working on his 6th WDC and has achieved the best race results start of his entire career is a bit of a stretch.

How is it a stretch?  Most people are talking about who has driven the best so far this year.  I fail to see what the number of pole positions Lewis has has to do with it, nor how many titles Lewis had before the season started.  People appear to be conflating success with driving prowess but in a non-spec series such as F1 it's much more nuanced than that.  

 

Case in point: Lewis was half a second faster than Max in qualifying in China.  But he was slower than his team mate, while Max was nearly a full second faster than his.  How do you conclude from that that Lewis drove better than Max did?  And in Monaco Lewis got pole by less than a tenth from his team mate, while Max was half a second faster than his while being a further half second down on Lewis.  The only stat that would suggest Lewis drove better would be the raw times, but in a non-spec series where equipment is such a large part of the equation is that really definitive?  If we only look at the stats then we may as well not have any discussions and just point to the points table but for F1 in particular that's not a remotely accurate way of assessing driver performance.



#5062 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 20:31

you could, but the post was making a point of the fact that Lewis beat Max but given they had different equipment I question what exactly the significance of that is?  Lewis also beat e.g Leclerc - should we read anything more into that?

Actually you can because when Max won in Austria.....The Track, Altitude and Temperature played to the strengths of the RBR, which neither Leclerc or Lewis had at their disposition.....And everyone automatically said Max won and didn't question the difference in their machines.... 



#5063 shure

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 20:40

Actually you can because when Max won in Austria.....The Track, Altitude and Temperature played to the strengths of the RBR, which neither Leclerc or Lewis had at their disposition.....And everyone automatically said Max won and didn't question the difference in their machines.... 

I don't think that's true.  I've seen it stated more than once that the Mercs were having to engage in lift and coast for a good part of the race.  I think most people accept the Mercs weren't on form but Max capitalised and did it very well.  As Lewis did in Hungary.  Max took Leclerc because of a tyre imbalance, like Lewis took Max because of a tyre imbalance.  I haven't seen anyone suggesting that in either case the battle was being fought with equal equipment.

 

On both occasions the driver made the difference and a lesser one probably wouldn't have pulled it off.  But it doesn't mean that the driver they beat was poor necessarily



#5064 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 20:40

you could, but the post was making a point of the fact that Lewis beat Max but given they had different equipment I question what exactly the significance of that is?  Lewis also beat e.g Leclerc - should we read anything more into that?

true, but that works both ways



#5065 shure

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 20:42

true, but that works both ways

yes it does, but the post I responded to only mentioned one



#5066 BUFFY

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 20:49

Jos living vicariously it seems. It’s good his son will achieve results that Jos never had the discipline to nor the raw talent required in spades to make up for such lack of discipline.

Max is very, very good. Lewis recognises that, but has been nothing but respectful and genuine about Max’s talent and achievements even going out of his way to praise it. Both in front of Max and behind his back. Max on the other hand has been respectful enough in front of Lewis but a bit of a douche behind his back. There’s been several statements about how a lot of drivers would have won 5 titles in the Mercedes. Which is a terribly loose statement simply because it fails to consider the blatantly obvious and more pertinent question - could any driver have won 5 titles in the Mercedes with Lewis Hamilton as team mate? Did Nico Rosberg?

At best, it’s a childish and thick statement from Max, and at worst it’s just plain disingenuous.

If intended to try and get into Lewis’ head, then good luck, that hasn’t worked very well for others. Currently Max and Lewis have very different goals in racing and Lewis will give Max a wide berth in general, at least until the championship is all but a done deal. Things will get a lot more interesting when they are both in a close championship fight against each other. Hopefully for all fans, regardless of allegiance, that happens as it will be a treat.

Yes. Disappointing to be hearing such comments from Verstappen.

 

The bit about any driver winning in a Merc. He may have a point re Mercs 2014 - 2016.    But 2017 & 2018 is a  completely different story. How quicky it's forgotten that the SF70H was very competitive in 2017, while the SF71H was equal, if not better than the W09 in 2018. Wthout Hamilton/a top, inform driver in the Mercs of 2017 & 2018, Vettel in the Ferrari walks both titles. Just look where Bottas finished in 2017 & 2018- that says it all.

If Hamilton wasn't in the 2018 Merc, I honestly don't even think Verstappen himself would've won the title in his place. Last year, Verstappen  was lacking maturity & was mistake prone, particularly in the first half of the season. His  overall performance was simply not good enough to pile the pressure on Ferrari & Vettel--forcing them into some of the many mistakes we saw,



#5067 jjcale

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 20:53

Verstappen’s father thinks Hamilton is rattled

 

https://grandpx.news...ton-is-rattled/

 

I think we saw in Hungary how rattled Lewis really is. Give him a challenge, he rises above it. That's what he wants, and there's no other driver on the grid that has demonstrated that ability with consistency over the years. 

 

Jos also predicts half a decade of Honda dominance. 

 

Gotta love how every year, it's next year when things are really going to be different. So it's good for them there's always a next year coming up. 

 

This is good for LH ... Jos shooting off increases the pressure on MV .... lets see how he performs with increased pressure.



#5068 shure

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 21:04

This is good for LH ... Jos shooting off increases the pressure on MV .... lets see how he performs with increased pressure.

I don't think he has any at the moment tbh.  Everyone knows/assumes he is in an inferior car, so when he does well he'll get praise and when he doesn't the blame will be put on the car.  As long as he keeps beating his team mate - and I'd be surprised if he doesn't - then I don't see him under any real pressure this year



#5069 Nathan

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 22:24

While it's fair to suggest any decent driver can win a championship in a Mercedes over the past 5 years, 3 have had the chance but only 1 has won it 4 times.

 

*If* Hamilton was rattled prior to Hungary (and I see no reason why he should be), he isn't now.  I think all of this is showing the Verstappen camp is becoming desperate/frustrated with the lack of success and justification/confirmation that would come with it.



#5070 P123

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 22:45

I think Hamilton was hungry to atone for his Hockenheim screw up. Hamilton on the back foot comes out fighting. It was also the best answer to the giddiness over Max, which by and large is fair enough given his own superb form, but has arisen more in the press due to Red Bull's welcome surge in form. The aged spent force wasn't quite so spent after all. Maybe it's better to lok forward to some more Max/ Hamilton battles, regardless of how eager the press and others are to see him toppled and written off after one wet race in 10 that went wrong.

#5071 MKSixer

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 23:18

How is it a stretch?  Most people are talking about who has driven the best so far this year.  I fail to see what the number of pole positions Lewis has has to do with it, nor how many titles Lewis had before the season started.  People appear to be conflating success with driving prowess but in a non-spec series such as F1 it's much more nuanced than that.  

 

Case in point: Lewis was half a second faster than Max in qualifying in China.  But he was slower than his team mate, while Max was nearly a full second faster than his.  How do you conclude from that that Lewis drove better than Max did?  And in Monaco Lewis got pole by less than a tenth from his team mate, while Max was half a second faster than his while being a further half second down on Lewis.  The only stat that would suggest Lewis drove better would be the raw times, but in a non-spec series where equipment is such a large part of the equation is that really definitive?  If we only look at the stats then we may as well not have any discussions and just point to the points table but for F1 in particular that's not a remotely accurate way of assessing driver performance.

The flaw in your reasoning is that VER only has GAS as a comparator.  BOT is a race winner and while not at HAMs level consistently, he provides a better comparator than GAS does for VER.  

 

Here is a very good analysis:  https://www.formula1...93c60BwHJi.html

 

Cheers-mk



#5072 shure

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 08:19

The flaw in your reasoning is that VER only has GAS as a comparator.  BOT is a race winner and while not at HAMs level consistently, he provides a better comparator than GAS does for VER.  

 

Here is a very good analysis:  https://www.formula1...93c60BwHJi.html

 

Cheers-mk

Would Bottas have been a race winner in the Red Bull?

 

Doesn't really answer the questions I posed.  I don't see anything objective that makes it a stretch



#5073 Marklar

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 08:47

You are entirely missing the point.

Gasly is quite obviously underperforming big time, unless you think that the Red Bull is a midfield car, so he is a horrible reference in the first place.

Now let's look on the quali gaps: Hamilton has anything from 6 tenths down on Bottas to 7 tenths up. Verstappen anything from over 1 second up to a few hundrets up on Gasly. So roughtly the same margin.

It's generally assummed that down on your team mate -> underperformed, up on your team mate -> achieved the expected, up by a margin on your team mate -> exceeded expectations. Max is achieving one of the latter two by default, even if he in reality underperforms because his team mate is not there to take advantage of that (in Germany he messed up both of his laps for instance, but only freaking Marko noticed it lol). And even if Gasly is closer it's assumed because he improved and not that Max didnt maximized it. He qualified a few times only marginally ahead of the midfield for instance, was Red Bull so bad or did Max not have a good day? Everyone assumes the former.

To cut it short: Max cant really lose, unless he crashes, but even there the hype machine lets him go off lightly (collided with both Merc in Monaco, with Leclerc in Spielberg, spun in Germany, etc.). After looking on the lap times I think Max could have won in Budapest had he tried to drive consistent times, save rubber for Hamilton's attack, instead of trying to keep up and thus destroying the tyres in the process - but there is no team mate to demonstrate that you can pull this off, so it's just assumed that you cant.

I'm in no way saying that he isnt driving well, and the latter part of 2018 alone shows that he is excellent. But let's not pretend that in his situation it is not very easy to impress relatively to the drivers in the other top teams.

#5074 Hela

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 11:41

I don't think he has any at the moment tbh.  Everyone knows/assumes he is in an inferior car, so when he does well he'll get praise and when he doesn't the blame will be put on the car.  As long as he keeps beating his team mate - and I'd be surprised if he doesn't - then I don't see him under any real pressure this year

 

Verstappen is doing quite well and the car is improving. You are right the assumption is that he has an inferior car right now but nevertheless Mercedes have maximised theirs and are not resting on their laurels as the points gap shows both in WDC and WCC

 

Ferrari and Vettel however are the ones that have really been found wanting because Redbull with a far inferior car and Verstappen driving has really put a shade on Vettel and Leclerc in a supposedly far superior car. To be honest Max has no real business being ahead of at least Vettel but he is and this shows how much Ferrari has falling down the pecking order amongst the top 3.

 

I think Redbull sense 2nd place in the  WCC is also up for grabs, I guess that's why Albon has now gotten the seat


Edited by Hela, 14 August 2019 - 11:42.


#5075 mclara

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 12:29

You are entirely missing the point.

Gasly is quite obviously underperforming big time, unless you think that the Red Bull is a midfield car, so he is a horrible reference in the first place.

Now let's look on the quali gaps: Hamilton has anything from 6 tenths down on Bottas to 7 tenths up. Verstappen anything from over 1 second up to a few hundrets up on Gasly. So roughtly the same margin.

It's generally assummed that down on your team mate -> underperformed, up on your team mate -> achieved the expected, up by a margin on your team mate -> exceeded expectations. Max is achieving one of the latter two by default, even if he in reality underperforms because his team mate is not there to take advantage of that (in Germany he messed up both of his laps for instance, but only freaking Marko noticed it lol). And even if Gasly is closer it's assumed because he improved and not that Max didnt maximized it. He qualified a few times only marginally ahead of the midfield for instance, was Red Bull so bad or did Max not have a good day? Everyone assumes the former.

To cut it short: Max cant really lose, unless he crashes, but even there the hype machine lets him go off lightly (collided with both Merc in Monaco, with Leclerc in Spielberg, spun in Germany, etc.). After looking on the lap times I think Max could have won in Budapest had he tried to drive consistent times, save rubber for Hamilton's attack, instead of trying to keep up and thus destroying the tyres in the process - but there is no team mate to demonstrate that you can pull this off, so it's just assumed that you cant.

I'm in no way saying that he isnt driving well, and the latter part of 2018 alone shows that he is excellent. But let's not pretend that in his situation it is not very easy to impress relatively to the drivers in the other top teams.

Spot on. Should have been posted in the Mid season driver rating.



#5076 MKSixer

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 12:38

You are entirely missing the point.

Gasly is quite obviously underperforming big time, unless you think that the Red Bull is a midfield car, so he is a horrible reference in the first place.

Now let's look on the quali gaps: Hamilton has anything from 6 tenths down on Bottas to 7 tenths up. Verstappen anything from over 1 second up to a few hundrets up on Gasly. So roughtly the same margin.

It's generally assummed that down on your team mate -> underperformed, up on your team mate -> achieved the expected, up by a margin on your team mate -> exceeded expectations. Max is achieving one of the latter two by default, even if he in reality underperforms because his team mate is not there to take advantage of that (in Germany he messed up both of his laps for instance, but only freaking Marko noticed it lol). And even if Gasly is closer it's assumed because he improved and not that Max didnt maximized it. He qualified a few times only marginally ahead of the midfield for instance, was Red Bull so bad or did Max not have a good day? Everyone assumes the former.

To cut it short: Max cant really lose, unless he crashes, but even there the hype machine lets him go off lightly (collided with both Merc in Monaco, with Leclerc in Spielberg, spun in Germany, etc.). After looking on the lap times I think Max could have won in Budapest had he tried to drive consistent times, save rubber for Hamilton's attack, instead of trying to keep up and thus destroying the tyres in the process - but there is no team mate to demonstrate that you can pull this off, so it's just assumed that you cant.

I'm in no way saying that he isnt driving well, and the latter part of 2018 alone shows that he is excellent. But let's not pretend that in his situation it is not very easy to impress relatively to the drivers in the other top teams.

A great detailed explanation and primer on team mate comparisons.  Nicely done, Marklar.

 

The corollary to the VER situation is the HAM situation in every detail.  No matter what happens one of these things are said or variations thereof:

 

HAM wins:  It's the car.

HAM wins:  He's supposed to win.

HAM wins:  He has a crappy team mate and it's a waste of the seat.

HAM loses:  He's on the decline, the mongrels are nipping at his heels and the guard is changing.

HAM gets pole:  He's the pole champion.  He's supposed to.

HAM barely gets pole:  He's on the decline, the mongrels are nipping at his heels.

HAM loses pole:  He's getting old, making mistakes, and on the decline.

 

It's a no win situation.



#5077 CHIUNDA

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 12:51

Verstappen is doing quite well and the car is improving. You are right the assumption is that he has an inferior car right now but nevertheless Mercedes have maximised theirs and are not resting on their laurels as the points gap shows both in WDC and WCC

 

Ferrari and Vettel however are the ones that have really been found wanting because Redbull with a far inferior car and Verstappen driving has really put a shade on Vettel and Leclerc in a supposedly far superior car. To be honest Max has no real business being ahead of at least Vettel but he is and this shows how much Ferrari has falling down the pecking order amongst the top 3.

 

I think Redbull sense 2nd place in the  WCC is also up for grabs, I guess that's why Albon has now gotten the seat

 

What criteria is being used to determine that the Ferrari is superior to the Red Bull, as current prevailing evidence appears to be contradictory? So far this season, the only other car that has won races is the Red Bull. In Hungary, the Red Bull together with the Mercedes, was a pit stop ahead of the Ferrari. Is that not enough evidence to show that the Red Bull is currently a superior car to the Ferrari? Verstappen is just being the normal very good driver in a very good car. 



#5078 AnR

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 13:28

A great detailed explanation and primer on team mate comparisons.  Nicely done, Marklar.

 

The corollary to the VER situation is the HAM situation in every detail.  No matter what happens one of these things are said or variations thereof:

 

HAM wins:  It's the car.

HAM wins:  He's supposed to win.

HAM wins:  He has a crappy team mate and it's a waste of the seat.

HAM loses:  He's on the decline, the mongrels are nipping at his heels and the guard is changing.

HAM gets pole:  He's the pole champion.  He's supposed to.

HAM barely gets pole:  He's on the decline, the mongrels are nipping at his heels.

HAM loses pole:  He's getting old, making mistakes, and on the decline.

 

It's a no win situation.

 

But lot's of it is actually true : ) HAM has a dominant car and a teammate from second tier, is expected to be on the decline due to his age and getting old as any other driver.

Mercs domination will end some time also, and perhaps Red Bull and Max will behind the change of guard, who knows?

 

It's more fun all the stir it get's that already now most F1 pundit thinks Verstappen is already having a better year : )



#5079 Rodaknee

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 14:16


It's more fun all the stir it get's that already now most F1 pundit thinks Verstappen is already having a better year : )

 

Pundits have to produce controversy otherwise they'd be out of a job.  No one should take them seriously, because they change their opinions weekly, unless, like one or two they've got something against a particular driver or team and are always looking to stick the knife in.  I would never bother to read Gary Anderson, as he seldom gets a mention here, I'm not sure many do.



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#5080 gillesfan76

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 15:59

Well that depends on how highly you rate Rosberg, of course.  Or how deeply you choose to analyse Max's statement.  Because I read it simply as him saying that a Merc would have won the titles regardless of who was driving, rather than as a deliberate slight against Hamilton in particular.  
 
Of course he may have been having a dig, but sometimes I get the impression that people think every statement a driver makes is carefully thought out and calculated from every angle, when often they might say something fairly innocent, like we all do, that may appear to have more than one meaning if viewed from certain perspectives but which weren't intended to.


I rate Rosberg very, very highly. His misfortune was having Lewis in the other car.

I don’t for one moment think that Max made a carefully considered statement. Quite the opposite, it was a rubbish ill thought out throwaway comment and I said as much in my previous post. It still doesn’t remove from the fact that it also happened to be intentionally disparaging and the mention of 5 titles is no coincidence given that Lewis has won 5 titles while Mercedes hasn’t.

Some drivers are their own worst enemy and Lewis has suffered from this himself. I still remember him saying that no one overtakes him around the outside, then Massa promptly did just that next race in Hungary. Pretty much invited it upon himself allowing even a lesser driver like Massa to be so utterly motivated that he put it all on the line just to school Lewis. But Lewis has come a long way since then, but he’s also had a grounded upbringing and mature parents. So the base was always there.

I feel like Max, as Lewis was, is also his own worst enemy but I’m also pleasantly surprised that he’s shown superb maturity so far this season. But motivating an opponent to not give an inch next time in battle isn’t a smart move. Unfortunately I don’t think a grounded upbringing or mature parents are on his side, but let’s put aside dad for a bit, there’s always hope that mum has had a bigger influence on his base. Max certainly has the potential to be a great. Up there with the likes of Fangio, Clark, Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton. Potentially.

#5081 SonGoku

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 17:35

Wolff very positive about Bottas on F1's Youtube.

#5082 robefc

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 18:39

 

It's a no win situation.

 

Only when it comes to perception, it's pretty much all win where it counts!  :p



#5083 TomNokoe

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 18:47

Marklar, you're definitely a Lewis fan :D

#5084 MKSixer

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 18:57

Only when it comes to perception, it's pretty much all win where it counts!  :p

I surrender to your superior grasp of objective realities vs forum realities.   :clap:



#5085 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 19:08

Marklar, you're definitely a Lewis fan :D

Not until Lewis officially goes to Croydon.....😋

#5086 Marklar

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 19:11

Indeed, that's the deal breaker :p

#5087 sennafan24

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 19:29

Marklar, you're definitely a Lewis fan :D

 

peter_falk-300x450.jpg?quality=90&strip=



#5088 doc83

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 19:49

I rate Rosberg very, very highly. His misfortune was having Lewis in the other car.

I don’t for one moment think that Max made a carefully considered statement. Quite the opposite, it was a rubbish ill thought out throwaway comment and I said as much in my previous post. It still doesn’t remove from the fact that it also happened to be intentionally disparaging and the mention of 5 titles is no coincidence given that Lewis has won 5 titles while Mercedes hasn’t.

Some drivers are their own worst enemy and Lewis has suffered from this himself. I still remember him saying that no one overtakes him around the outside, then Massa promptly did just that next race in Hungary. Pretty much invited it upon himself allowing even a lesser driver like Massa to be so utterly motivated that he put it all on the line just to school Lewis. But Lewis has come a long way since then, but he’s also had a grounded upbringing and mature parents. So the base was always there.

I feel like Max, as Lewis was, is also his own worst enemy but I’m also pleasantly surprised that he’s shown superb maturity so far this season. But motivating an opponent to not give an inch next time in battle isn’t a smart move. Unfortunately I don’t think a grounded upbringing or mature parents are on his side, but let’s put aside dad for a bit, there’s always hope that mum has had a bigger influence on his base. Max certainly has the potential to be a great. Up there with the likes of Fangio, Clark, Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton. Potentially.

 

 

Based on what? Max hasn't won anything since his karting days. In F3 he was 3rd. 5 years in F1 and he has only a couple of wins and 1 Pole Position. He never faced a world champion as a teammate. Wasn't much better than Ric (lost on points 2 out of 3 seasons). Max is certainly very good, fast and has an aggressive eye-pleasing driving style. But the hype is just ridiculous.



#5089 GoldenColt

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 19:53

peter_falk-300x450.jpg?quality=90&strip=

"One more thing..."


Edited by GoldenColt, 14 August 2019 - 19:54.


#5090 Hela

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 19:57

What criteria is being used to determine that the Ferrari is superior to the Red Bull, as current prevailing evidence appears to be contradictory? So far this season, the only other car that has won races is the Red Bull. In Hungary, the Red Bull together with the Mercedes, was a pit stop ahead of the Ferrari. Is that not enough evidence to show that the Red Bull is currently a superior car to the Ferrari? Verstappen is just being the normal very good driver in a very good car.


Over the course of the season and not just the last race. I would say the Ferrari was the better car and only the drivers and poor race operations let them down

#5091 Hela

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 19:58

Marklar, you're definitely a Lewis fan :D


Wow.... that was smart of you, how did you figure that out :)

Edited by Hela, 14 August 2019 - 19:59.


#5092 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 20:30

one of the reasons you get to winning so many things (poles, races, titles) is you learn not to give a sh*t about public opinions.

I don't think Lewis felt he had to bounce back from Germany, there was nothing to bounce back from. He had great pace, made a costly mistake (almost everybody spun at some point that day. almost), the race went backwards from there. Great, a mistake, move on.

Not sure again why he would be rattled or anything. Lewis has a great year, won a lot of races, I am not sure he spends time in the evenings thinking wether Max or LeClerc or Vettel would do the same in his place. He does his job


Edited by MikeTekRacing, 14 August 2019 - 20:32.


#5093 masa90

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 20:41

Bottas seems to be having some rally fun during the summer break. Driven atleast the Fiesta WRC sofar.

 

 

On sunday he will be hosting and competing in a Duathlon at his hometown.

 

Any update on what Lewis has been upto?

 

And when should expect the driverannouncement?



#5094 SonGoku

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 20:50

Bottas seems to be having some rally fun during the summer break. Driven atleast the Fiesta WRC sofar.


On sunday he will be hosting and competing in a Duathlon at his hometown.

Any update on what Lewis has been upto?

And when should expect the driverannouncement?

On the Motorsport total podcast they say Wolff makes the decision now and we will hear it in Spa who is the second driver next year.

Lewis is with family and friends on holiday.

Edited by SonGoku, 14 August 2019 - 20:51.


#5095 Viryfan

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 21:11

Unless they know where the looser will go by now we won't know it at Spa or Wolff was lying in Hungary...

#5096 beachdrifter

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 21:14

Unless they know where the looser will go by now we won't know it at Spa or Wolff was lying in Hungary...

 

I guess at some point we'll hear that the driver was decided a long time ago, and the rest was just a show to keep people interested. 



#5097 shure

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 21:14

You are entirely missing the point.

Gasly is quite obviously underperforming big time, unless you think that the Red Bull is a midfield car, so he is a horrible reference in the first place.

Now let's look on the quali gaps: Hamilton has anything from 6 tenths down on Bottas to 7 tenths up. Verstappen anything from over 1 second up to a few hundrets up on Gasly. So roughtly the same margin.

It's generally assummed that down on your team mate -> underperformed, up on your team mate -> achieved the expected, up by a margin on your team mate -> exceeded expectations. Max is achieving one of the latter two by default, even if he in reality underperforms because his team mate is not there to take advantage of that (in Germany he messed up both of his laps for instance, but only freaking Marko noticed it lol). And even if Gasly is closer it's assumed because he improved and not that Max didnt maximized it. He qualified a few times only marginally ahead of the midfield for instance, was Red Bull so bad or did Max not have a good day? Everyone assumes the former.

To cut it short: Max cant really lose, unless he crashes, but even there the hype machine lets him go off lightly (collided with both Merc in Monaco, with Leclerc in Spielberg, spun in Germany, etc.). After looking on the lap times I think Max could have won in Budapest had he tried to drive consistent times, save rubber for Hamilton's attack, instead of trying to keep up and thus destroying the tyres in the process - but there is no team mate to demonstrate that you can pull this off, so it's just assumed that you cant.

I'm in no way saying that he isnt driving well, and the latter part of 2018 alone shows that he is excellent. But let's not pretend that in his situation it is not very easy to impress relatively to the drivers in the other top teams.

How exactly am I missing the point?  What in your post contradicts anything I have said, or indeed addresses the posts I have been replying to?  It's a complete non-sequitur.

 

I don't disagree Max is in a good position and in fact I've mentioned that myself.  But I don't agree it's as easy as you make out and I think there has to be some acknowledgement that one of the reasons Gasly is looking so poor is because Max is making him look so.   It's at least arguable that with another driver other than Max the gap between the two would likely be a lot smaller, as I've already pointed out.  The Red Bull is only looking good in Max's hands but for all we know with another driver it may not be beating either of the Ferraris, let alone a Merc or two.  There are a lot of assumptions in your post.

 

I think it's no easier for Max to impress against Gasly than it is for Lewis to impress against Bottas.  In both cases, the top drivers are markedly better than their team mates, so the default position is that they will beat them.  Any time they do, the general consensus is that they maximised the car.  Same for both.

 

But unlike Lewis, Max isn't sitting in a car that is widely acknowledged as the best of the field.  So anytime he beats either a Merc or a Ferrari, the two cars which have dominated these past two years, then he's going to look particularly good.  And he wouldn't look nearly as good if his team mate was beating them all, too.  But that's not the case, is it?  The Merc drivers are the top two in the WDC and I don't think there are many people out there who would think that Bottas is the 2nd best driver on the grid.  But Gasly is barely beating a McLaren, while Max is beating both Ferraris and knocking on at least one Merc's door.  So it's not unreasonable that people would sit up and take notice of that and applaud Max for doing a great job.  It's difficult to see exactly what he could have done better so far this year, both in qualifying and the races, while the same can't always be said of Lewis.  And that's not saying that Lewis has been poor, but it's inarguable that he has on occasion not got the best out of his car, while it's pure speculation that Max hasn't.  

 

And that's not missing any point



#5098 Dutchrudder

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 21:26

I reckon the way Russell has started makes it tough for them to replace Bottas. Here's a team which has had 4 drivers over 10 years.

Russell still needs another year and hopefully in an improved Williams before they entertain the idea and Ocon is pretty good but when evenly matched with his teammate previously it has been explosive, if Merc want someone better than Bottas they don't want that person magnetically attracted to the sister car.

Bottas gets another year but the writings on the wall.

Edited by Dutchrudder, 14 August 2019 - 21:26.


#5099 jstrains

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 21:46

How about Ric replacing Bot?

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#5100 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 21:52

How about Ric replacing Bot?

what's in it for Renault to agree?