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Mercedes AMG F1 Team Thread (drivers, management, rumours and gossip!)


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#5951 alframsey

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 23:43

I know mature and thoughtful Lewis is what has brought him titles, race wins and records but I do miss the ruthless Lewis of old. I'd love to see him putting manners on Max and Charles, just remind me of what he can do because we get very few opportunities to see Lewis fighting wheel to wheel nowadays.



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#5952 Counterbalance

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 00:18

He has been praising SOME young drivers. Who do you think Lewis was refering to when he said " F1 should be a mans sports and that it has become too easy for young drivers to get in to" or when he said " The car is easy for for young drivers, I can do 3 races in a row" Clear an dig at the the young drivers and one in particular Lando Norris! I guess Lando saying Lewis is not his idol hurt Lewis pride. :wave: Anyway Lando hit back at Lewis comments accusing him of singling him, Russell and Albion out Lewis backtracked and tweeted praising Lando about who he is doing a great job at McLaren...Of course he later deleted the tweet. The youngster have got his attention and the bad blood is brewing. Lewis threw the first shots but he wont get the last shot if he thinks he can play hardball.


They have a lot of respect for one another until Lewis decides to crash into him. As for praising Leclerc, he has no choice but to. The question is why did Lewis make reference to the 'young drivers' getting away with a lot more. Why is he bringing the issue of the young drivers again? Why not just mention Leclerc without making it an issue about a generation of drivers. Funny for a man who knows what it is like to be prejudiced against he sure is doing his best to showing at been no better when the foot is on the other boot.


You're mistaking your own assumptions for fact in this post, including Hamilton making the decision to crash into Norris! Are you clairvoyant? Or perhaps you own a flux capacitor?

I'd like to see Hamilton wrap up the WDC with a win this year, it'll be 5 years since he last did that. Oh, and not at Mexico again. But if it happens there I'll be happy with the result nonetheless.

I'm also left wondering if Hamilton has consciously decided not to take any unnecessary risks until both the WCC and the WDC are wrapped up. Then I think we can look forward to him properly getting his elbows out against Verstapoen and LeClerc. Having said that, you could see his head going through the gears in the press pen when he was discussing what the new generation of drivers seemed to get away with.

If he nails a qualifying lap like last year at Singapore, it's another big step towards the WDC, as I can see Verstappen in 2nd place and Bottas Windows 3.1 version being just meh...

But I'm frequently wrong which is why I don't gamble.

#5953 teejay

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 05:10

Yeah, the small gap in quali seemed a bit odd. It looks like Mercedes tried to snatch a front row, while Ferrari knowing that they have a big gap was willing to set up more for the race.

Though I also think Hamilton didnt had the best day either (or set up). Normally his tyre management is better than Bottas even in dirty air, not worse than him *and* Ferrari.

 

Wasn't it driven by the fact it was expected to be a wet Sunday? 

 

And it was, except it was 3 hours too early. 



#5954 Marklar

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 07:42

Wasn't it driven by the fact it was expected to be a wet Sunday?

And it was, except it was 3 hours too early.

Rain wasnt expected. All forecasted implied that it will clear up long before the race

I know mature and thoughtful Lewis is what has brought him titles, race wins and records but I do miss the ruthless Lewis of old. I'd love to see him putting manners on Max and Charles, just remind me of what he can do because we get very few opportunities to see Lewis fighting wheel to wheel nowadays.

Due to Mercedes being not quite as good over one lap we see it more often this year than for the last couple of years I feel.

Edited by Marklar, 10 September 2019 - 07:44.


#5955 TomNokoe

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 07:50

I know mature and thoughtful Lewis is what has brought him titles, race wins and records but I do miss the ruthless Lewis of old. I'd love to see him putting manners on Max and Charles, just remind me of what he can do because we get very few opportunities to see Lewis fighting wheel to wheel nowadays.


Tell me about it :cry:

#5956 MinardiCrashDummy

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 07:58

He has been praising SOME young drivers. Who do you think Lewis was refering to when he said " F1 should be a mans sports and that it has become too easy for young drivers to get in to"  or when he said " The car is easy for for young drivers, I can do 3 races in a row" Clear an dig at the the young drivers and one in particular Lando Norris! I guess Lando saying Lewis is not his idol hurt Lewis pride. :wave:  Anyway Lando hit back at Lewis comments accusing him of singling him, Russell and Albion out  Lewis backtracked and tweeted praising Lando about who he is doing a great job at McLaren...Of course he later deleted the tweet. The youngster have got his attention and the bad blood is brewing. Lewis threw the first shots but he wont get the last shot if he thinks he can play hardball. 

 

 

They have a lot of respect for one another until Lewis decides to crash into him. As for praising Leclerc, he has no choice but to. The question is why did Lewis make reference to the 'young drivers' getting away with a lot more. Why is he bringing the issue of the young drivers again? Why not just mention Leclerc without making it an issue about a generation of drivers. Funny for a man who knows what it is like to be prejudiced against he sure is doing his best to showing at been no better when the foot is on the other boot. 

 

You seem to be only seeing things you want to.



#5957 monolulu

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 08:39

I know mature and thoughtful Lewis is what has brought him titles, race wins and records but I do miss the ruthless Lewis of old. I'd love to see him putting manners on Max and Charles, just remind me of what he can do because we get very few opportunities to see Lewis fighting wheel to wheel nowadays.


Lewis has never been as ruthless as Senna or Schumacher. He’s always tried to win in the “right way” & I think there will always be a line that he won’t cross. His aggression in wheel to wheel combat is obviously tempered by the WDC at present but it will be interesting to see battles in later races especially as the goal posts have been moved! He learnt a lot about Leclerc this weekend as he has about Max in past races, this knowledge will be stored away for future use.

Edited by monolulu, 10 September 2019 - 08:47.


#5958 milestone 11

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 20:03

Lewis Hamilton is the only driver to have scored at least one point in all the races so far this season.


Two.

#5959 sabjit

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 20:52

Why do people even bother replying to Sunny? He is obviously just trying to aggravate. Let's not give him attention or legitimise his posts.



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#5960 alframsey

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:07

Lewis has never been as ruthless as Senna or Schumacher. He’s always tried to win in the “right way” & I think there will always be a line that he won’t cross. His aggression in wheel to wheel combat is obviously tempered by the WDC at present but it will be interesting to see battles in later races especially as the goal posts have been moved! He learnt a lot about Leclerc this weekend as he has about Max in past races, this knowledge will be stored away for future use.

I didn't mean ruthless in that sense and I guess that might have been the wrong word, there is no denying though that his overtaking moves seem a bit more dulled recently in my mind, I guess it is from a mmore mature approach to the title fight but I do miss those amazing moves we used to see.



#5961 Viryfan

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 14:32

Ocon will do the Pirelli test at Paul Ricard.



#5962 Paco

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:27

Wow Toto’s presser about Ocon. Man alive... he’s not ready about Ocon and his concern about reliving a Nico like period again.... wow. Wow. Wow. He’s rather lose a WCC by having the 5-6th talented driver of the top 6 seats vs managing the situation with someone new. Yes he sees the games Charles is playing at Ferrari but that’s racing man, not everything is roses all the time.. you need that push that enthusiasm the gusto sonetimes to break a funk and keep ahead.

Toto sounds more scared then a leader in regards to Bottas’situation.. becoming Claire like... man alive. Time to get better not stagnant... everyone else is coming at you fast and hard...and you choose to soft and accept the fate that’s barrelling at you...

is this the lack of Lauda’s fighting spirit that is missing now internally....

Edited by Paco, 11 September 2019 - 15:29.


#5963 P123

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:32

Paco- get over it. :)

#5964 Retrofly

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:33

Wow Toto’s presser about Ocon. Man alive... he’s not ready about Ocon and his concern about reliving a Nico like period again.... wow. Wow. Wow. He’s rather lose a WCC by having the 5-6th talented driver of the top 6 seats vs managing the situation with someone new. Yes he sees the games Charles is playing at Ferrari but that’s racing man, not everything is roses all the time.. you need that push that enthusiasm the gusto sonetimes to break a funk and keep ahead.

Toto sounds more scared then a leader in regards to Bottas’situation.. becoming Claire like... man alive. Time to get better not stagnant... everyone else is coming at you fast and hard...and you choose to soft and accept the fate that’s barrelling at you...

is this the lack of Lauda’s fighting spirit that is missing now internally....

 

Lol calm down buddy :rotfl:



#5965 SilverArrow31

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:41

Wow Toto’s presser about Ocon. Man alive... he’s not ready about Ocon and his concern about reliving a Nico like period again.... wow. Wow. Wow. He’s rather lose a WCC by having the 5-6th talented driver of the top 6 seats vs managing the situation with someone new. Yes he sees the games Charles is playing at Ferrari but that’s racing man, not everything is roses all the time.. you need that push that enthusiasm the gusto sonetimes to break a funk and keep ahead.

Toto sounds more scared then a leader in regards to Bottas’situation.. becoming Claire like... man alive. Time to get better not stagnant... everyone else is coming at you fast and hard...and you choose to soft and accept the fate that’s barrelling at you...

is this the lack of Lauda’s fighting spirit that is missing now internally....

 

I'm still not sure why anyone would believe, especially with a year out, that Ocon would be a better option than Bottas is, I do not understand the hype, Ocon certainly didn't show anything that makes me think he would be trouble for Hamilton.



#5966 Atreiu

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:57

It's wishful thinking.

 

As for losing the WCC, Mercedes lead in the WCC right now is already larger than it was in 2017 at the end of the season and nearly twice as large as it was last season. The risk they run of losing it is the same risk they run of several successful catastrophic weekends with double DNFs and multiple Ferrari 1-2s occuring simultaneously.

 

Yeah, right. Bring in Ocon because the possibility of him being good enough to create a toxic intra-team competition is exactly what Mercedes need.

 

"Genious".


Edited by Atreiu, 11 September 2019 - 15:59.


#5967 alframsey

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 15:59

Ocon wouldn't have been a better option in terms of ability (potential then yes he is a better option) but will have had more fight and desire in him than Bottas. I've never seen such a boring and uninspiring driver in my entire life, he isn't ever going to be more than what he is at the moment. And that isn't enough if RBR and Ferrari are closer to Merc next season.



#5968 Paco

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:01

I'm still not sure why anyone would believe, especially with a year out, that Ocon would be a better option than Bottas is, I do not understand the hype, Ocon certainly didn't show anything that makes me think he would be trouble for Hamilton.

Not the hype, as for me there’s a tonne of other guys that could jump in there. For me, it’s simply Toto’s fear of an hard fought driver line up and accepting the 2nd seat just winning no races or a couple... I believe there’s a few guys that could that at least or better which is to MGP if the 2nd guy could win on a day where Lewis wasn’t on it and took away a win from a competing team. Bottas is good for a 1-2 with Lewis and can’t make up for a win when Lewis isn’t in the hunt for any number of reasons.

It’s odd hearing Toto concerned about a new driver coming in and pushing them. Especially when this season has shown they need it.. fortunate to capitalize on Ferrari flubs early so they got their points cushion but can’t imagine they comfortable with that going into next year...

For me, it wasn’t about Ocon per say (they prob have enough from sim work to know) but his constant going on about Nico years and not willing to have their drivers push each other... how he likes the No2 driver aspect of Bottas... just didn’t think they’d fall into Ferrari ways in the driver lineup. Was nice to see Ferrari for once open it up.. weird to see Mercedes bunker down.

Edited by Paco, 11 September 2019 - 17:21.


#5969 Marklar

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:08

Ocon and Bottas are probably around the same level, but Ocon is more likely to disturb things since he is young and since he has some sort of history on that, plus he is a bit of a wildcard since he wasnt racing a year.

Really, accussing Wolff of risking the WCC is bs, it's more the other way around. Hiring Ocon risks the championships more but would have created a possibility for a future prospect in case he develops well.

if he was talking about Max, then that would be a different matter.

Edited by Marklar, 11 September 2019 - 16:09.


#5970 SilverArrow31

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:12

Not the hype, as for me there’s a tonne of other guys that could jump in there. For me, it’s simply Toto’s fear of an hard fought driver line up and accepting the 2nd seat just winning no races or a couple... I believe there’s a few guys that could that at least or better which is to MGP if the 2nd guy could win on a day where Lewis wasn’t on it and took away a win from a competing team. Bottas is good for a 1-2 with Lewis and can’t make up for a win when Lewis isn’t in the hunt for any number of reasons.

It’s odd hearing Toto concerned about a new driver coming in and pushing them. Especially when this season has shown they need it.. fortunate to capitalize on Ferrari flubs early so they got their points cushion but can’t imagine they comfortable with that going into next year...

For me, it wasn’t about Ocon per day (they prob have enough from sin work to know) but his constant going on about Nico years and not willing to have their drivers push each other... how he likes the No2 driver aspect of Bottas... just didn’t think they’d fall into Ferrari ways in the driver lineup. Was nice to see Ferrari for once open it up.. weird to see Mercedes bunker down.

 

Well its working for Mercedes isn't it? This was the first time in 3 years you could call them dominant, and they are still heading towards their 6th title. Bottas has been in the team for 3 years and won 3 WCC's, teams just want to win, and right now they are doing nothing but winning, so why on earth would they change things?


Edited by SilverArrow31, 11 September 2019 - 16:17.


#5971 Paco

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 16:56

Well its working for Mercedes isn't it? This was the first time in 3 years you could call them dominant, and they are still heading towards their 6th title. Bottas has been in the team for 3 years and won 3 WCC's, teams just want to win, and right now they are doing nothing but winning, so why on earth would they change things?

Has worked.. doesn’t mean it will continue to work. Since Bottas joined, they lost their edge and competitors closing in. Yes Ferrari and Honda getting better no doubt but no doubt as well since he came in they look beatable.. as he poses no threat to competitors outside of a few good quali laps. Can they afford that next year time will tell but always depending on Lewis to perform miracles is going to catch them up...

Doing the same thing over and over a recipe for disaster...

Edited by Paco, 11 September 2019 - 17:23.


#5972 Synkro89

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:50

Tell me about it :cry:

Then complain about him crossing the line when it goes wrong. No thanks ,there's a reason he takes measured risks these days and to be fair to him he's never been too ruthless apart from with Rosberg who crossed the line himself when battling. He's shown it with Vettel and Max this year alone like what the hell do you guys want  :rolleyes:



#5973 alframsey

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:59

Then complain about him crossing the line when it goes wrong. No thanks ,there's a reason he takes measured risks these days and to be fair to him he's never been too ruthless apart from with Rosberg who crossed the line himself when battling. He's shown it with Vettel and Max this year alone like what the hell do you guys want  :rolleyes:

You are mistaking what I mean by ruthless. I don't mean stepping over the line or breaking the rules in order to win, I mean ruthless in his execution of overtaking manoeuvres. I am not in any way at all criticising him, he is driving at a level currently that he never has before imo and I feel he still has more in hand. I am just remembering the days when he was always in close wheel to wheel combat and would come out on top in some epic battles. I miss that, I do. I also realise this current approach brings him more success.



#5974 BuddyHolly

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 18:04

Ocon wouldn't have been a better option in terms of ability (potential then yes he is a better option) but will have had more fight and desire in him than Bottas. I've never seen such a boring and uninspiring driver in my entire life, he isn't ever going to be more than what he is at the moment. And that isn't enough if RBR and Ferrari are closer to Merc next season.

I agree, Bottas is just a wet lettuce as a driver and his racecraft is just dire.   To say he's wasting the best seat in F1 is no lie, I'll admit its not a nice thing but I hope it costs them the WCC next season.  I'm no fan of Ocon but surely even he would have more backbone.



#5975 Retrofly

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 19:55

Doing the same thing over and over a recipe for disaster...

You mean like winning?

 

Remember 2 teammates competing with each other can cost WDC, it works both ways.



#5976 Hela

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 21:45

Has worked.. doesn’t mean it will continue to work. Since Bottas joined, they lost their edge and competitors closing in. Yes Ferrari and Honda getting better no doubt but no doubt as well since he came in they look beatable.. as he poses no threat to competitors outside of a few good quali laps. Can they afford that next year time will tell but always depending on Lewis to perform miracles is going to catch them up...
Doing the same thing over and over a recipe for disaster...


Still don't get the rationale to critic the team who has swept the last 5 championships and about to make it 6.

Does that not suggest they are doing it right.well maybe that's why they do what they do and some just well....... Sit in on a forum and talk :)

#5977 Paco

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 21:51

Still don't get the rationale to critic the team who has swept the last 5 championships and about to make it 6.

Does that not suggest they are doing it right.well maybe that's why they do what they do and some just well....... Sit in on a forum and talk :)

Engineering advantage made it easy on them driver wise... you need to see it in perspective. No one is talking about their engineering group, it’s about Bottas. If they fall into the pack due to convergence in HP then calls about drivers becomes more magnified. Mercedes entering into uncharted territory for them they havent been in for a long time.

One of the 2 was practically guaranteed it, now it’s not that clear anymore and being lax in the sister car to Lewis could be a big issue from here on in.. even this season. Doubt they’ll lose a championship at this point but races are no longer a given.

Edited by Paco, 11 September 2019 - 22:17.


#5978 teejay

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 23:43

Engineering advantage made it easy on them driver wise... you need to see it in perspective. No one is talking about their engineering group, it’s about Bottas. If they fall into the pack due to convergence in HP then calls about drivers becomes more magnified. Mercedes entering into uncharted territory for them they havent been in for a long time.

One of the 2 was practically guaranteed it, now it’s not that clear anymore and being lax in the sister car to Lewis could be a big issue from here on in.. even this season. Doubt they’ll lose a championship at this point but races are no longer a given.

 

 

Convergence in HP has already happened for Honda/Merc/Renault - Ferrari now lead the pack



#5979 HeadFirst

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 23:48

Has worked.. doesn’t mean it will continue to work. Since Bottas joined, they lost their edge and competitors closing in. Yes Ferrari and Honda getting better no doubt but no doubt as well since he came in they look beatable.. as he poses no threat to competitors outside of a few good quali laps. Can they afford that next year time will tell but always depending on Lewis to perform miracles is going to catch them up...

Doing the same thing over and over a recipe for disaster...

 

What is it, 3 WCCs in a row? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.



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#5980 Paco

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 23:50

What is it, 3 WCCs in a row? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


That’s how teams fail. You have to always fix things that come up.. and Bottas is a bad apple that could easily spoil the whole bag...

#5981 TheFish

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 06:25

That’s how teams fail. You have to always fix things that come up.. and Bottas is a bad apple that could easily spoil the whole bag...


Standing still means going backwards. Next year will be Bottas’ final in Mercedes, it has to be.

#5982 Retrofly

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 09:34

At some point Mercedes will stop winning, its inevitable. And people will be like "ha told you so" :lol:


Edited by Retrofly, 13 September 2019 - 22:58.


#5983 Atreiu

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 13:39

https://www.autospor...t-ferrari-drive

 

News flash, people who are not tifosi don't really care about who drivers for Ferrari, and neither do they think any driver needs to get there to have a fully accmplished career.

 

I'd rather Hamilton does not go.



#5984 kernel

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 20:55

https://www.autospor...t-ferrari-drive

News flash, people who are not tifosi don't really care about who drivers for Ferrari, and neither do they think any driver needs to get there to have a fully accmplished career.

I'd rather Hamilton does not go.


Issue is probably a vast majority of fans are either driver fans or Tifosi.

For HAM’s personal brand, a move to Ferrari could ascend his brand to a whole new level.

#5985 Hela

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 01:05

At some point Mercedes will stop winning, its inevitable. And people will be like "ha told you so" :lol:


Yep, totally agree. Even a broken clock is right twice a day

#5986 Silberpfeil

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 12:52

https://www.autospor...river-he-can-be

How quaint.

#5987 danmills

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 13:12

Some of you guys really are on another planet.

 

Bottas is currently P2 in the championship. That's literally the best he can be aside from P1. No grey areas, he's second.

 

What else should he be doing? Winning races and taking from Hamilton? Why would a team want that extra level of tension?

 

The WCC is bagged. Job done.

 

It really is that simple.



#5988 SonGoku

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 14:27

I think people were a bit disappointed with BOT last race when he had his best chance to win a race since forever.

There is not a lot wrong with his performances this season and that's why he got his extension.

#5989 GoldenColt

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 14:39

Some of you guys really are on another planet.

 

Bottas is currently P2 in the championship. That's literally the best he can be aside from P1. No grey areas, he's second.

 

What else should he be doing? Winning races and taking from Hamilton? Why would a team want that extra level of tension?

 

The WCC is bagged. Job done.

 

It really is that simple.

This OTT frustration with Bottas that some people have is based on the irrational hope that someone like Ocon would do a better job against Hamilton, which is at the very least questionable, if not outright ludicrous. Bottas is doing a solid job, he had a strong pace in Italy (arguably faster than Lewis the entire weekend) and is doing more than enough to ensure yet another WCC in the bag for Merc. It would take a driver of Verstappen's calibre to put Lewis under pressure throughout the whole season, but that's not going to happen. The constant whimpering about Bottas is how some people vent their frustration about the fact that Lewis is having this kind of success under circumstances which these moaners perceive to be too easy.


Edited by GoldenColt, 16 September 2019 - 06:27.


#5990 MKSixer

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 14:41

I think people were a bit disappointed with BOT last race when he had his best chance to win a race since forever.

There is not a lot wrong with his performances this season and that's why he got his extension.

This.

 

Mercedes wants a 1-2 every race.  That is optimal performance.  Spain 2016 and other instances proved that you can have the best car with the best drivers and still come up with ZED if they are at each others' throats.  BOT is perfect to achieve the goals of the team as long as HAM is there.  He can pick up wins and/or be competitive nearly all the time without causing discord and consternation in the team and certainly not crashing his team mate out of the race to prove something.  He supports the WCC effort by keeping the competition at bay and at the beginning of the season has a chance at the WDC per Mercedes rules of engagement.  Unfortunately for his WDC aspirations, he's paired with the greatest driver of this generation and perhaps the GOAT.  Other than that, it's a perfect situation for all and has led to unprecedented success.  Until the formula changes in 2021, it would have been the height of insanity to change anything.


Edited by MKSixer, 15 September 2019 - 14:43.


#5991 rodlamas

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 14:49

Some of you guys really are on another planet.

Bottas is currently P2 in the championship. That's literally the best he can be aside from P1. No grey areas, he's second.

What else should he be doing? Winning races and taking from Hamilton? Why would a team want that extra level of tension?

The WCC is bagged. Job done.

It really is that simple.


Imagine what people would have been saying about Bottas if:

- He crashed at the start of the 2017 Singapore HP
- He threw his car against Lewis after a supposed brake test
- He crashed into Vettel at the start of the 2018 French GP
- He span out of contetion at the Italian, Japanese and American GPs in 2018.
- He crashed out of the lead on the 2018 German GP
- He span out of the 2019 Bahrain GP when on the best car.
- He crashed into Verstappen during the 2019 British GP
- He drove like an idiot on the 2019 Italian GP

Only imagine

#5992 ARTGP

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 15:24

I get what you all are saying, and it's very accurate. Valterri's inability to threaten Hamilton is perfect. He's the perfect #2 to keep the harmony and still help them get the WCC. That's why they kept him.

 

But. why does Toto Wolf keep talking up Valterri like he has the potential to be a WDC threat to Hamilton? The moment Valterri levels up and is actually a WDC threat to Hamilton, he's no longer the amicable wingman that the team wants. Suddenly there's a load of the undesirable tension that the team does not want. And it's not any better than signing Max or Esteban who will no doubt bring tension.

 

So what gives? Does Toto want Bottas to challenge Hamilton or not? Of course I suspect I know the answer to this question....However I feel like Toto chooses to be dishonest in the media. 


Edited by ARTGP, 15 September 2019 - 15:29.


#5993 uraharakisuke

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 19:24

I get what you all are saying, and it's very accurate. Valterri's inability to threaten Hamilton is perfect. He's the perfect #2 to keep the harmony and still help them get the WCC. That's why they kept him.

 

But. why does Toto Wolf keep talking up Valterri like he has the potential to be a WDC threat to Hamilton? The moment Valterri levels up and is actually a WDC threat to Hamilton, he's no longer the amicable wingman that the team wants. Suddenly there's a load of the undesirable tension that the team does not want. And it's not any better than signing Max or Esteban who will no doubt bring tension.

 

So what gives? Does Toto want Bottas to challenge Hamilton or not? Of course I suspect I know the answer to this question....However I feel like Toto chooses to be dishonest in the media. 

Team boss supports and encourages his driver.



#5994 Silberpfeil

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 20:09

I get what you all are saying, and it's very accurate. Valterri's inability to threaten Hamilton is perfect. He's the perfect #2 to keep the harmony and still help them get the WCC. That's why they kept him.

But. why does Toto Wolf keep talking up Valterri like he has the potential to be a WDC threat to Hamilton? The moment Valterri levels up and is actually a WDC threat to Hamilton, he's no longer the amicable wingman that the team wants. Suddenly there's a load of the undesirable tension that the team does not want. And it's not any better than signing Max or Esteban who will no doubt bring tension.

So what gives? Does Toto want Bottas to challenge Hamilton or not? Of course I suspect I know the answer to this question....However I feel like Toto chooses to be dishonest in the media.


That. I like Valtteri, and even as an avowed fan of Ocon I understand and appreciate why he got the seat for next year. I may not like it as much, but I understand. So at this point, would it be too much to ask everyone to abandon the public pretense that Valtteri, over the course of a normal season, could ever be a credible championship threat? This year was his chance, with the way he started the year, and he blew it in rather spectacular fashion.

Now, for the very specific requirements of the Mercedes team in its current state and in the wider environment of Formula One, he is a very good number 2. A much better number 2 than probably the majority of the drivers on the grid would be, thanks to the blend of his speed and his personality, but I am annoyed by this style of media coverage around him, initiated both by himself and others.

Other than that, I have no problem with Valtteri, either as a driver or with the media persona he chooses to display. He’s a capable guy, I just don’t think he has shown enough to be considered a current or future championship threat, and to pretend otherwise is akin to engaging in (admittedly highly elaborate) window-dressing. I think we can all guess why Toto does it when he does it, why Lewis does it, why Valtteri himself does it, why parts fo the media do it, but I still don’t like it.

#5995 SonGoku

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 12:25

Link: https://it.motorspor...-forte/4542265/

Aldo Costa about working with Schumacher, Hamilton, Kimi and Alonso.

Interesting he makes the comparison between Schumacher and Hamilton, both calling him during the weekends with new ideas.

#5996 gillesfan76

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 13:01

I get what you all are saying, and it's very accurate. Valterri's inability to threaten Hamilton is perfect. He's the perfect #2 to keep the harmony and still help them get the WCC. That's why they kept him.

 

But. why does Toto Wolf keep talking up Valterri like he has the potential to be a WDC threat to Hamilton? The moment Valterri levels up and is actually a WDC threat to Hamilton, he's no longer the amicable wingman that the team wants. Suddenly there's a load of the undesirable tension that the team does not want. And it's not any better than signing Max or Esteban who will no doubt bring tension.

 

So what gives? Does Toto want Bottas to challenge Hamilton or not? Of course I suspect I know the answer to this question....However I feel like Toto chooses to be dishonest in the media. 

 

I know that it can seem like a bit of a drama, if watching F1 in between episodes of The Bold and the Beautiful. But in reality Toto wants Bottas to be able to step up the performance. With no tyre advantage, Lewis put massive pressure on Charles at Monza and if not for some borderline defence on Charles' part, he would have taken the lead. In massive contrast, everyone and the data says that Valtteri actually had slightly better race pace than Lewis, and in addition his tyres had done far less laps over both Lewis and Charles when he came up behind Charles, and in addition the tyre advantage was further compounded from the fact that Charles had accelerated his tyre usage fighting Lewis while Valtteri was just cruising behind. Valtteri should have been able to mount a serious challenge for the lead. But he didn't even come close. Charles himself said he could relax after Lewis dropped into P3.

 

I don't think it's that Toto looks at the question the same way as those desperate to see someone beat Lewis. That is, asking the question "Does Toto want Bottas to challenge Hamilton or not?" is simply the wrong question. It's a question invented by people that are naive. Toto simply wants both drivers to be performing at a very high level, extracting the maximum out of the car and each being in a position to win the race if the other one fails. It really is as simple as that.

 

If we had reversed positions in Monza, where Lewis had qualified behind Bottas but had faster race pace. And Bottas was the one who pushed Charles hard all race only to fall away near the end. And Lewis found himself in P2 with a tyre advantage and faster race pace. There's little doubt he would have taken the win. That's what Toto wants from both his drivers. He's not asking himself silly questions.



#5997 ARTGP

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 13:09

I know that it can seem like a bit of a drama, if watching F1 in between episodes of The Bold and the Beautiful. 

 

LOL. You got me  :rotfl:

 

 

 

But in reality Toto wants Bottas to be able to step up the performance. With no tyre advantage, Lewis put massive pressure on Charles at Monza and if not for some borderline defence on Charles' part, he would have taken the lead. In massive contrast, everyone and the data says that Valtteri actually had slightly better race pace than Lewis, and in addition his tyres had done far less laps over both Lewis and Charles when he came up behind Charles, and in addition the tyre advantage was further compounded from the fact that Charles had accelerated his tyre usage fighting Lewis while Valtteri was just cruising behind. Valtteri should have been able to mount a serious challenge for the lead. But he didn't even come close. Charles himself said he could relax after Lewis dropped into P3.

 

I don't think it's that Toto looks at the question the same way as those desperate to see someone beat Lewis. That is, asking the question "Does Toto want Bottas to challenge Hamilton or not?" is simply the wrong question. It's a question invented by people that are naive. Toto simply wants both drivers to be performing at a very high level, extracting the maximum out of the car and each being in a position to win the race if the other one fails. It really is as simple as that.

 

If we had reversed positions in Monza, where Lewis had qualified behind Bottas but had faster race pace. And Bottas was the one who pushed Charles hard all race only to fall away near the end. And Lewis found himself in P2 with a tyre advantage and faster race pace. There's little doubt he would have taken the win. That's what Toto wants from both his drivers. He's not asking himself silly questions.

 

With all that said....Then what in the last 3 years of running Bottas would suggest that Bottas can provide this level? If what you say is true, then why did they pick Bottas for 2020 when there are other candidates like Ricciardo who had a clause in his Renault contract enabling him to jump ship.  Surely Ricciardo-Hamilton would give exactly the result you are suggesting above. Ricciardo would have sent it down the inside (like he's known for) exactly as you said if the roles were reversed.

 

The truth is, Wolf likes the Hamilton-Bottas #1 and #2 dynamic just the way it is. A clear #1 and a clear #2 in every attribute. Someone who isn't going to do what Rosberg did. Yet he spins a narrative in the media that Bottas can challenge for the World Championship.


Edited by ARTGP, 16 September 2019 - 13:15.


#5998 gillesfan76

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 13:19

Link: https://it.motorspor...-forte/4542265/

Aldo Costa about working with Schumacher, Hamilton, Kimi and Alonso.

Interesting he makes the comparison between Schumacher and Hamilton, both calling him during the weekends with new ideas.

 

The most interesting part for me was that he expressed some admiration with the way Schumi, Lewis and even Kimi worked. But when he was asked specifically about Alonso, he didn't say anything negative but notably nothing positive either, and said he was more in tune with the others he mentioned.

 

But he did say he has talked about it before. What was that??



#5999 Marklar

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 13:31

The most interesting part for me was that he expressed some admiration with the way Schumi, Lewis and even Kimi worked. But when he was asked specifically about Alonso, he didn't say anything negative but notably nothing positive either, and said he was more in tune with the others he mentioned.

But he did say he has talked about it before. What was that??

"I consider Fernando a true great when he is in the car, driving," Costa told Italian journalist Leo Turrini. "Out of the car, I was never able to understand him; to me he is an indecipherable character, an enigma. However he will not be coming to us at Mercedes, I do not see why Hamilton should want to leave a team like ours."



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#6000 gillesfan76

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 13:40

LOL. You got me  :rotfl:

 

 

 

 

With all that said....Then what in the last 3 years of running Bottas would suggest that Bottas can provide this level? If what you say is true, then why did they pick Bottas for 2020 when there are other candidates like Ricciardo who had a clause in his Renault contract enabling him to jump ship.  Surely Ricciardo-Hamilton would give exactly the result you are suggesting above. Ricciardo would have sent it down the inside (like he's known for) exactly as you said if the roles were reversed.

 

The truth is, Wolf likes the Hamilton-Bottas #1 and #2 dynamic just the way it is. A clear #1 and a clear #2 in every attribute. Someone who isn't going to do what Rosberg did. Yet he spins a narrative in the media that Bottas can challenge for the World Championship.

 

It's a very good question you ask. I guess the simple answer is that he is very quick in qualifying, sometimes his performances on the Saturday are almost dominating over Lewis. Over a driver that has more pole positions than anyone and who several team mates have claimed is the faster driver ever in F1. Valtteri's problem is his race pace is usually not as good. But having said that, there are occasions when his race was has been very strong too. So it's the potential isn't it?

 

So I think Valtteri has that potential, but is he ever going to find the switch to flick it on to consistently deliver? Maybe not. I personally don't think he ever will. I think that's mainly due to natural ability. I think he just doesn't have as much, and he compensates with hard work, but you can see this deficiency in the race under ever changing track conditions, tyre wear and fuel loads, and in the heat of battle.

 

But while Valtteri does fall short, against a great, it's not like there are loads of other options. You mention Ricciardo, yeah I would agree he seems like an option. Everyone looks good though until they're lined up against a better driver. Then the reference changes. Let's see how Ricciardo fares against Ocon. I expect Ricciardo to dominate.