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Mercedes AMG F1 Team Thread (drivers, management, rumours and gossip!)


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#6001 Retrofly

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 13:45

If you look at the top teams Bottas is the most solid #2.

 

Why would Merc get rid of him?



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#6002 ARTGP

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 13:54

If you look at the top teams Bottas is the most solid #2.

 

Why would Merc get rid of him?

 

I feel like there's misunderstanding here. There is no reason to get rid of Bottas. He creates the perfect team dynamic because he's "the most solid #2"', just like you say.

 

Question is, Toto talks about Valterri like he can become a #1 driver or "alpha" driver, when being "a solid #2" is the actual reason they kept him.



#6003 gillesfan76

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 14:11

I feel like there's misunderstanding here. There is no reason to get rid of Bottas. He creates the perfect team dynamic because he's "the most solid #2"', just like you say.

 

Question is, Toto talks about Valterri like he can become a #1 driver or "alpha" driver, when being "a solid #2" is the actual reason they kept him.

 

Q1: Externally - What sort of alternative statements do you think would be more appropriate for Toto to say when questioned about Valtteri?

Q2: Internally - What sort of expectation do you think Toto should be conveying to Valtteri?



#6004 shure

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 14:18

Q1: Externally - What sort of alternative statements do you think would be more appropriate for Toto to say when questioned about Valtteri?

Q2: Internally - What sort of expectation do you think Toto should be conveying to Valtteri?

Well for starters if Bottas was the perfect #2 then I don't see why Toto would procrastinate and publicly agonise about extending him in the way that he did.  I don't think he's the slam dunk perfect fit many are saying he is.



#6005 Rodaknee

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 14:22

Well for starters if Bottas was the perfect #2 then I don't see why Toto would procrastinate and publicly agonise about extending him in the way that he did.  I don't think he's the slam dunk perfect fit many are saying he is.

 

It couldn't have been easy with Ocon doing his Yosser Hughes impression at every race.



#6006 Retrofly

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 15:14

The statement about Bottas not hitting his potential is a win-win.

 

It doesn't matter if its true or not, but its the best answer for team harmony.

 

If true, great Bottas will get better, if not, at least Toto didn't further demorilize his driver by slapping the wingman tag on him again.

 

Imagine if Toto came out and public said that Bottas was a "Solid number two driver", people would fall off their chairs in shock.



#6007 Paco

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 15:14

It seems and I agree the general consensus is that people are put off with Toto’s talking of Bottas being much more then he is and it’s irratating hearing him speak of the man in ways that hasn’t been shown on track. Also, the idea that he isn’t the bonafide No2. If Toto and Mercedes would just call a spade a spade and accept it, give Lewis the advantage of a bonafide No1 ie tows every race not just every other, better strat calls irregardless of track position etc then yeah, would be way easier to take. It’s this equal crap and uptalk of the slow racer decent qualifier that wears on after almost 3 years on...call it for what it REALLY is and don’t hide behind some false facade and fine... but then accept the fact.

Edited by Paco, 16 September 2019 - 15:38.


#6008 Goron3

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 17:21

It will be fascinating to see how Bottas may perform next year, especially if the cars are closer in performance. He was genuinely shocking last year.

#6009 CL16

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 18:14

It will be fascinating to see how Bottas may perform next year, especially if the cars are closer in performance. He was genuinely shocking last year.


Since the cars got mildly close this season he’s gone into a recession.

#6010 Marklar

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 18:47

Since the cars got mildly close this season he’s gone into a recession.

Not really sure I can follow.

He indeed threw away great chances with his crash in Germany and his 1st lap incident in Budapest, but beyond that he has driven all year pretty much on the same level (which granted, is not particulary awesome, but solid enough). Monza was the first race since Melbourne where it felt like he wasnt much slower too.

I do agree that his chances to ever win a title are slim with a lot of competition (just like it would have been for Rosberg, even if he was better), but so far he hasnt faded as badly as in the last two years, that is at least something.

 

It seems and I agree the general consensus is that people are put off with Toto’s talking of Bottas being much more then he is and it’s irratating hearing him speak of the man in ways that hasn’t been shown on track. Also, the idea that he isn’t the bonafide No2. If Toto and Mercedes would just call a spade a spade and accept it, give Lewis the advantage of a bonafide No1 ie tows every race not just every other, better strat calls irregardless of track position etc then yeah, would be way easier to take. It’s this equal crap and uptalk of the slow racer decent qualifier that wears on after almost 3 years on...call it for what it REALLY is and don’t hide behind some false facade and fine... but then accept the fact.

Even Ferrari never admitted that Barrichello is their number two, although he was - unlike Bottas - a full wet number two. As you say Bottas gets equal treatment with strategy and such, which considering that he is the slower driver turns often into strategy preference (e.g. the entire stuff with them sending both drivers out in Q1 when they are not safe, or giving them the same strategy of what both drivers are capable of, development direction is partly based on what suits both added together, etc.).

Which is why I dont really get the complains about it: Bottas isnt on paper the number two, he is defacto the number two due to his performances, but that's about it. When Wolff calls him the wingman people are all over him too.

 

Well for starters if Bottas was the perfect #2 then I don't see why Toto would procrastinate and publicly agonise about extending him in the way that he did.  I don't think he's the slam dunk perfect fit many are saying he is.

I disagree.

There are two likely reasons why the decision was procrastinated

1.) to get more money for Ocon from Renault 
2.) a decision pro Ocon wouldnt have meant that Bottas is not good enough to be the #2, but that they are preparing for the future and are ready to possibly compromise themselves for the present.



#6011 MKSixer

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 19:59

I feel like there's misunderstanding here. There is no reason to get rid of Bottas. He creates the perfect team dynamic because he's "the most solid #2"', just like you say.

 

Question is, Toto talks about Valterri like he can become a #1 driver or "alpha" driver, when being "a solid #2" is the actual reason they kept him.

 

I must say that I read a few articles from back in 14 and 15 when Williams was doing well. Valteri was being spoken of as a future world champion by some including Niki Lauda.  It's not that he is slow.  It's not that he is a born #2 driver.  He's seated next to the greatest racer of this generation and possibly the greatest of all time.  It's the best and worst of both worlds for him.  



#6012 SonGoku

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 23:19

Indeed, Pat Symonds also was sure of it that he would be as good as a champion in waiting after his Williams stint. He also had the junior career succes, battling with Ricciardo.

But he doesn't beat Hamilton enough times and that makes certain people very very angry.

Edited by SonGoku, 16 September 2019 - 23:19.


#6013 Paco

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 23:45

I must say that I read a few articles from back in 14 and 15 when Williams was doing well. Valteri was being spoken of as a future world champion by some including Niki Lauda. It's not that he is slow. It's not that he is a born #2 driver. He's seated next to the greatest racer of this generation and possibly the greatest of all time. It's the best and worst of both worlds for him.


It’s not Bottas vs Lewis per say but that does play in it, it’s how he races against his competitors outside of Lewis. He never seems to be able to take it to the position in front and just sits back going slower..

#6014 MKSixer

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 12:57

It’s not Bottas vs Lewis per say but that does play in it, it’s how he races against his competitors outside of Lewis. He never seems to be able to take it to the position in front and just sits back going slower..

There is definitely validity to this and I can see it as well.  I also see a strategy of, letting the race come to him.  I can't necessarily disagree with that strategy because he has at least the 2nd fastest car on the track at all times barring anomalies like Austria.  Removing 2018 he has performed well and has a chance to be WDC.  It's too bad that he's sitting next to one of the all-time greats.



#6015 Ali623

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 13:09

Problem is, in any races where Mercedes aren't the favourites and there's another 3/4 cars in the mix, Hamilton is still fighting for the win whereas Bottas normally ends up somewhere down in 5th for example. Happens every time, and if Red Bull and Ferrari can actually both put up a prolonged fight next season, Mercedes constructor title could be under threat for this reason. 



#6016 SilverArrow31

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 13:26

Indeed, Pat Symonds also was sure of it that he would be as good as a champion in waiting after his Williams stint. He also had the junior career succes, battling with Ricciardo.

But he doesn't beat Hamilton enough times and that makes certain people very very angry.

 

Bottas was a serious hot property when he signed for Mercedes, they didn't just choose him when Rosberg retired due to Toto managing him. He was a highly rated driver and by far the most suitable option outside the big names, Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen, Rosberg was to, even more so. Hamilton is just that good,

 

Hamilton > Bottas > Massa > Stroll, Bottas is not a terrible driver by a long shot


Edited by SilverArrow31, 17 September 2019 - 13:28.


#6017 Paco

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 13:53

Problem is, in any races where Mercedes aren't the favourites and there's another 3/4 cars in the mix, Hamilton is still fighting for the win whereas Bottas normally ends up somewhere down in 5th for example. Happens every time, and if Red Bull and Ferrari can actually both put up a prolonged fight next season, Mercedes constructor title could be under threat for this reason.

Exactly. Bottas only seems to mix it up with Lewis and runs scared against anyone else and even applying pressure to anyone else...

Edited by Paco, 17 September 2019 - 13:54.


#6018 Paco

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 13:57

It’s not about Bottas being bad, it’s aboutbhe not being good enough for the 2nd of Mercedes when he can’t take it to their competitors.. they need him making hard to pass him... they need him to pressure the car in front and pass them and not just settling for the position and taking safe points.. we want him to push Charles Max Seb and now Albon... not just to let them drive away from him...

That’s what is the biggest frustration of Bottas in that 2nd seat... yes he’s up against a great that is dragging that car around better then him but he needs to be better against Ferrari and RB...

Thats why a lot of people disappojted they resigned him.. not because Ocon but because we wanted someone else who could take to Ferrari or RB when they’d be in front either due to quali, overcuts, race evolution etc. They guy only seems to come alive against his teammate, and rarely at that.

Edited by Paco, 17 September 2019 - 13:59.


#6019 TheFish

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 14:00

Monza was even more frustrating than Bahrain last year. Both times he had a tyre advantage and seemed to be so passive.



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#6020 P123

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 14:08

It’s not about Bottas being bad, it’s aboutbhe not being good enough for the 2nd of Mercedes when he can’t take it to their competitors.. they need him making hard to pass him... they need him to pressure the car in front and pass them and not just settling for the position and taking safe points.. we want him to push Charles Max Seb and now Albon... not just to let them drive away from him...

That’s what is the biggest frustration of Bottas in that 2nd seat... yes he’s up against a great that is dragging that car around better then him but he needs to be better against Ferrari and RB...

Thats why a lot of people disappojted they resigned him.. not because Ocon but because we wanted someone else who could take to Ferrari or RB when they’d be in front either due to quali, overcuts, race evolution etc. They guy only seems to come alive against his teammate, and rarely at that.


You over-egg the 'frustration' angle far too much, as well as the doom and gloom over Bottas somehow, in advance, being responsible for Mercedes losing the WCC. That will be because their car is not good enough. Incidentally he has finished behind Max twice, Vettel three times and Leclerc five times on track this season.

#6021 Ivanhoe

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 14:14

Incidentally he has finished behind Max twice


You forgot one. Austria, Hockenheim, Hungary. And he finished behind Max on track in Monaco ;-)

Edited by Ivanhoe, 17 September 2019 - 14:19.


#6022 P123

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 14:20

He didn't finish Hockenheim (although yes, likely to finish behind had he made it to the end!).

#6023 Marklar

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 14:23

Red Bull will definitely have the weaker driver pairing, unles Albon makes big steps. Argueably the gap between Hamilton and the Ferrari guys is also big enough to offset Bottas' deficit. If Mercedes loses the WCC it will be most likely because the car is not got enough, unless either of them underperforms to what is expected of them. Even if not, who should they have hired to ensure the WCC without endangering the WDC?

Exactly. Bottas only seems to mix it up with Lewis and runs scared against anyone else and even applying pressure to anyone else...

Not really true.

Bottas cant pressure Hamilton either. That's where his weakness is.

What he can against everyone is defending reasonably well. He actually won Hamilton some races in that way.

Against Hamilton he usually doesnt need it because Mercedes often neutralizes the engine modes when running in 1-2 (see Baku).

#6024 Paco

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 15:22

Red Bull will definitely have the weaker driver pairing, unles Albon makes big steps. Argueably the gap between Hamilton and the Ferrari guys is also big enough to offset Bottas' deficit. If Mercedes loses the WCC it will be most likely because the car is not got enough, unless either of them underperforms to what is expected of them. Even if not, who should they have hired to ensure the WCC without endangering the WDC?

Not really true.

Bottas cant pressure Hamilton either. That's where his weakness is.

What he can against everyone is defending reasonably well. He actually won Hamilton some races in that way.

Against Hamilton he usually doesnt need it because Mercedes often neutralizes the engine modes when running in 1-2 (see Baku).

As for pressuring Hamilton, i always take that more as internal rules of engagement so no point in risking it considering it would hurt him in his final position in the constructors as well as team management being angry..but that could making excuses for his lack of pushing but think it’s more likely then not.

Edited by Paco, 17 September 2019 - 15:23.


#6025 Unicast

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 16:26

Not really sure I can follow.

He indeed threw away great chances with his crash in Germany and his 1st lap incident in Budapest, but beyond that he has driven all year pretty much on the same level (which granted, is not particulary awesome, but solid enough). Monza was the first race since Melbourne where it felt like he wasnt much slower too.

I do agree that his chances to ever win a title are slim with a lot of competition (just like it would have been for Rosberg, even if he was better), but so far he hasnt faded as badly as in the last two years, that is at least something.

 

Even Ferrari never admitted that Barrichello is their number two, although he was - unlike Bottas - a full wet number two. As you say Bottas gets equal treatment with strategy and such, which considering that he is the slower driver turns often into strategy preference (e.g. the entire stuff with them sending both drivers out in Q1 when they are not safe, or giving them the same strategy of what both drivers are capable of, development direction is partly based on what suits both added together, etc.).

Which is why I dont really get the complains about it: Bottas isnt on paper the number two, he is defacto the number two due to his performances, but that's about it. When Wolff calls him the wingman people are all over him too.

 

I disagree.

There are two likely reasons why the decision was procrastinated

1.) to get more money for Ocon from Renault 
2.) a decision pro Ocon wouldnt have meant that Bottas is not good enough to be the #2, but that they are preparing for the future and are ready to possibly compromise themselves for the present.

 

Not sure why you rate Lewis so much higher than Seb & Leclerc... He basically got perfect or almost perfect cars for his whole Merc career, if Ferrari would finally manage to field a faster car, both of them will put a lot of pressure on Lewis... and that should go in favor of Ferrari.


Edited by Unicast, 17 September 2019 - 16:28.


#6026 Marklar

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 16:32

Not sure why you rate Lewis so much higher than Seb & Leclerc... He basically got perfect or almost perfect cars for his whole Merc career, if Ferrari would finally manage to field a faster car, both of them will put a lot of pressure on Lewis... and that should go in favor of Ferrari.

Not sure why you rate Bottas so much lower than Leclerc and Vettel. See what I did here.

It's probably Hamilton > Vettel/Leclerc > Bottas. It depends on how big you quantify the gaps between them to determine which driver pairing is better but Hamilton alone gains a lot on the Ferrari duo due sheer consistency, probably enough to gain back whatever Bottas loses to them due to his lack of race speed (which you can argue isnt even that much since he is less prone to errors at least)

As for having almost perfect cars: Yeah, no. Last two years he and Seb had the same opportunity and we saw how that went.

Obviously if Leclerc develops well and Seb stops spinning every other race this might look different, but as of now the Mercedes pairing looks more solid to me.

Edited by Marklar, 17 September 2019 - 16:42.


#6027 Paco

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 17:07

Not sure why you rate Bottas so much lower than Leclerc and Vettel. See what I did here.

It's probably Hamilton > Vettel/Leclerc > Bottas. It depends on how big you quantify the gaps between them to determine which driver pairing is better but Hamilton alone gains a lot on the Ferrari duo due sheer consistency, probably enough to gain back whatever Bottas loses to them due to his lack of race speed (which you can argue isnt even that much since he is less prone to errors at least)

As for having almost perfect cars: Yeah, no. Last two years he and Seb had the same opportunity and we saw how that went.

Obviously if Leclerc develops well and Seb stops spinning every other race this might look different, but as of now the Mercedes pairing looks more solid to me.


It’s more like Hamilton, Max, Charles-Seb-Daniel-Russell?, Carlos-Bottas-Kimi, Lando-Albon-Roman-Hulk-KMag-Perez-Kvyat, Gio-Stroll-Gasly, Kubica

#6028 Counterbalance

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 17:24

Not sure why you rate Lewis so much higher than Seb & Leclerc... He basically got perfect or almost perfect cars for his whole Merc career, if Ferrari would finally manage to field a faster car, both of them will put a lot of pressure on Lewis... and that should go in favor of Ferrari.

We've all seen what happens to Vettel when he's under pressure, and it's too early to compare LeClerc. The Mercedes rocket ship argument is getting tired now.

As for Bottas - he seems just too timid during races, apart from the opening lap where he goes banzai for the first few corners. It's a pity he can't seem to carry that aggression throughout a race

Edited by Counterbalance, 17 September 2019 - 17:25.


#6029 Ivanhoe

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 17:26

It’s more like Hamilton, Max, Charles-Seb-Daniel-Russell?, Carlos-Bottas-Kimi, Lando-Albon-Roman-Hulk-KMag-Perez-Kvyat, Gio-Stroll-Gasly, Kubica


Russel already in the top tier? Way too early. He’s right up there with Lando, Albon and the like.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 17 September 2019 - 17:26.


#6030 Counterbalance

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 17:33

Russel already in the elite group?


I don't know about that yet, but surely he'll be a better option than Bottas "The Beard" version 7.2.5. I'd look forward to seeing what Russell could do in the W12 very much indeed.

#6031 Ivanhoe

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 17:42

I don't know about that yet, but surely he'll be a better option than Bottas "The Beard" version 7.2.5. I'd look forward to seeing what Russell could do in the W12 very much indeed.


Totally agree on that :up:

#6032 Paco

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 17:48

Russel already in the top tier? Way too early. He’s right up there with Lando, Albon and the like.


Simply due to how consistent he’s been... yes against Kubica but of the 3 new guys he’s been by far the most reliable and consistent. Yes at the back.. but that constant form is promising. Just hard to judge but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. Albon time will tell against Max but nothing at RB yet to show glimpses of what could come from his nice stint at TR. Landonis getting on well but Carlos seems to have his measure or at least on par.

Edited by Paco, 17 September 2019 - 17:50.


#6033 Ivanhoe

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 17:56

Simply due to how consistent he’s been... yes against Kubica but of the 3 new guys he’s been by far the most reliable and consistent. Yes at the back.. but that constant form is promising. Just hard to judge but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. Albon time will tell against Max but nothing at RB yet to show glimpses of what could come from his nice stint at TR. Landonis getting on well but Carlos seems to have his measure or at least on par.


I’d say Hamilton is in a league of its own anyhow, Vettel may just join the group with Verstappen, Leclerc and Ricciardo (in fhat order), Albon, Russel and Norris are promising prospects, but too early to tell really.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 17 September 2019 - 17:59.


#6034 BobbyRicky

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 18:18

I don't know about that yet, but surely he'll be a better option than Bottas "The Beard" version 7.2.5. I'd look forward to seeing what Russell could do in the W12 very much indeed.

 

:rotfl:



#6035 Fatgadget

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 18:19

If you look at the top teams Bottas is the most solid #2.

 

Why would Merc get rid of him?

The team dynamics amongst the top teams totally different..A bit like apples, pears and oranges! But yeah. All said and done,Merc have got the most solid.



#6036 ARTGP

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 18:45

Simply due to how consistent he’s been... yes against Kubica but of the 3 new guys he’s been by far the most reliable and consistent. Yes at the back.. but that constant form is promising. Just hard to judge but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. Albon time will tell against Max but nothing at RB yet to show glimpses of what could come from his nice stint at TR. Landonis getting on well but Carlos seems to have his measure or at least on par.

 

It's this same logic that had people saying Bottas was the next big thing. Simply put, there just isn't any way to know except when they are in that car, under the pressure, and so on.

 

Even Leclerc after a consistent season at Sauber was up and down in the first few rounds at Ferrari (fortunately he appears to be coming around).


Edited by ARTGP, 17 September 2019 - 18:49.


#6037 masa90

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 19:42

Oh wow. It is time for grand prix so lets bash Bottas again. What is the point?



#6038 P123

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 20:04

I don't know about that yet, but surely he'll be a better option than Bottas "The Beard" version 7.2.5. I'd look forward to seeing what Russell could do in the W12 very much indeed.

.

A better bet than Ocon too. Which is why it made perfect sense for Merc to give Bottas another season. Proven race winner and pole sitter, currently second in the championship. Sticking potentially a worse guy like Ocon in the seat only to punt him after one season for Russell wouldn't make much sense. Russell is Merc's longterm future.

#6039 Unicast

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 22:09

Not sure why you rate Bottas so much lower than Leclerc and Vettel. See what I did here.

It's probably Hamilton > Vettel/Leclerc > Bottas. It depends on how big you quantify the gaps between them to determine which driver pairing is better but Hamilton alone gains a lot on the Ferrari duo due sheer consistency, probably enough to gain back whatever Bottas loses to them due to his lack of race speed (which you can argue isnt even that much since he is less prone to errors at least)

As for having almost perfect cars: Yeah, no. Last two years he and Seb had the same opportunity and we saw how that went.

Obviously if Leclerc develops well and Seb stops spinning every other race this might look different, but as of now the Mercedes pairing looks more solid to me.

 

I think, that when Ferrari will have a car which is a bit more consistent and less peaky... things will change quite drastically, if Ferrari manages to compete for race wins at each race, only having Lewis won't be enough.

He is consistent but he is consistent while the competition is lacking a proper car... If Ferrari would have had a Charles (instead of the inconsistent Kimi) next to Seb in 2017/2018 are u sure things wouldn't have pan out differently?

Now it remains to be seen if Ferrari manages that next year or not but that's my view on it.


Edited by Unicast, 17 September 2019 - 22:09.


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#6040 kernel

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 23:07

Red Bull will definitely have the weaker driver pairing, unles Albon makes big steps. Argueably the gap between Hamilton and the Ferrari guys is also big enough to offset Bottas' deficit. If Mercedes loses the WCC it will be most likely because the car is not got enough, unless either of them underperforms to what is expected of them. Even if not, who should they have hired to ensure the WCC without endangering the WDC?

Not really true.

Bottas cant pressure Hamilton either. That's where his weakness is.

What he can against everyone is defending reasonably well. He actually won Hamilton some races in that way.

Against Hamilton he usually doesnt need it because Mercedes often neutralizes the engine modes when running in 1-2 (see Baku).


Bottas is only good at defending against Hamilton.

#6041 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 23:17

Bottas is only good at defending against Hamilton.

he helped lewis a lot last year in Hungary



#6042 richardprice

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 23:51

The thing I find interesting about Bottas being "number 2" is that Mercedes can't play it that way without harming Bottas right now because Bottas is still second in the championship and is Hamiltons closest rival - it puts Mercedes in an interesting position.

 

Do they allow Bottas to fight for results, even when that allows rivals to gain on the two Mercedes drives in the championship, and ultimately run the risk of losing the championship in the last few races?  Do they apply team orders to prevent that?  What would applying team orders look like PR wise when the championship top spots are those drivers receiving team orders?

 

Mercedes have to play this right - Bottas still has a chance in the championship, but that chance may result in Mercedes not winning it at all.



#6043 SonGoku

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 00:00

If Bottas makes sure Hamilton doesn't win it in Mexico I am all for it.

#6044 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 00:17

The thing I find interesting about Bottas being "number 2" is that Mercedes can't play it that way without harming Bottas right now because Bottas is still second in the championship and is Hamiltons closest rival - it puts Mercedes in an interesting position.

 

Do they allow Bottas to fight for results, even when that allows rivals to gain on the two Mercedes drives in the championship, and ultimately run the risk of losing the championship in the last few races?  Do they apply team orders to prevent that?  What would applying team orders look like PR wise when the championship top spots are those drivers receiving team orders?

 

Mercedes have to play this right - Bottas still has a chance in the championship, but that chance may result in Mercedes not winning it at all.

 

Bottas has a chance in this championship if Lewis DNFs for about 3 or 4 races. Other than that, no way that's a possible scenario



#6045 richardprice

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 00:38

Bottas has a chance in this championship if Lewis DNFs for about 3 or 4 races. Other than that, no way that's a possible scenario

 

A resurgent Bottas qualifying better than Hamilton alongside an improving Ferrari and Redbull taking polls and wins can rapidly turn the final races from Mercedes high points scores into mediocre 3rd and 4th places - closing up Verstappen and potentially others in the points dramatically.  Throw in a DNF or two for Hamilton... The season is far from over, and it won't take much to create some dangerous situations for Mercedes in the championships.  

 

So, do Mercedes protect the championships in Hamiltons favour by throwing Bottas under a bus and have him allow Hamilton through at every opportunity, or do they let him race for points?



#6046 AmonGods

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 06:21

A resurgent Bottas qualifying better than Hamilton alongside an improving Ferrari and Redbull taking polls and wins can rapidly turn the final races from Mercedes high points scores into mediocre 3rd and 4th places - closing up Verstappen and potentially others in the points dramatically.  Throw in a DNF or two for Hamilton... The season is far from over, and it won't take much to create some dangerous situations for Mercedes in the championships.  

 

So, do Mercedes protect the championships in Hamiltons favour by throwing Bottas under a bus and have him allow Hamilton through at every opportunity, or do they let him race for points?

 

Dunno what you're smoking mate but pass it on   :lol:

When Ferrari won these last 2 races Lewis was in the mix while Max lost a lot of points. In Singapore Max and Lewis will fight for the win while Ferrari will lose points again (not counting dnfs). Dunno where you came up with this close WDC. 



#6047 Marklar

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 07:05

A resurgent Bottas qualifying better than Hamilton alongside an improving Ferrari and Redbull taking polls and wins can rapidly turn the final races from Mercedes high points scores into mediocre 3rd and 4th places - closing up Verstappen and potentially others in the points dramatically. Throw in a DNF or two for Hamilton... The season is far from over, and it won't take much to create some dangerous situations for Mercedes in the championships.

So, do Mercedes protect the championships in Hamiltons favour by throwing Bottas under a bus and have him allow Hamilton through at every opportunity, or do they let him race for points?

lol

Verstappen is 100 points back and 182 are on the table, he also has a grid penalty left. He needs Hamilton to have a horrible run and then he himself needs to have perfect results all around.

The Ferraris dont have the car and a even bigger gap.

I dont rule it out entirely that Bottas could have a mini chance if the next two races go well, and I also dont rule out the possibility of Max is snatching P2 away, but for more you need to be extremely paranoid to believe in.

#6048 paipa

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 10:36

Not really true.

 

Bottas cant pressure Hamilton either. That's where his weakness is.

What he can against everyone is defending reasonably well. He actually won Hamilton some races in that way.

Against Hamilton he usually doesnt need it because Mercedes often neutralizes the engine modes when running in 1-2 (see Baku).

I don't agree with Paco on pretty much anything, but he's right Bottas only mixes it up with Lewis, and it's annoying as hell. He threw it down the inside at Copse in a way you never see him do against anyone but Lewis. Or that Hungaroring start, two massive lockups with Lewis on his outside, and then clips him into T3... come on.

 

Bottas has a chip on his shoulder, he wants to prove to the world he isn't Hamilton's b**ch. Toto needs to sit down with him and tell him this is NOT what they expect of him, but the opposite. Soft against your teammate and tough against the opponents please.



#6049 Marklar

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 10:52

I don't agree with Paco on pretty much anything, but he's right Bottas only mixes it up with Lewis, and it's annoying as hell. He threw it down the inside at Copse in a way you never see him do against anyone but Lewis. Or that Hungaroring start, two massive lockups with Lewis on his outside, and then clips him into T3... come on.

Bottas has a chip on his shoulder, he wants to prove to the world he isn't Hamilton's b**ch. Toto needs to sit down with him and tell him this is NOT what they expect of him, but the opposite. Soft against your teammate and tough against the opponents please.

I do agree that he tries to be harder against Lewis this year than in previous years, but where is he softer against the others?

#6050 baddog

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 11:01

I do agree that he tries to be harder against Lewis this year than in previous years, but where is he softer against the others?

 

I dont think he is softer (Rosberg was a shocker for fighting his teammate harder than everyone else but not Valtteri), but he just seems to fall to pieces in the pinch, I mean Sunday in Monza once he was chasing charles was a lamentable show. Its a shame because he is SO close to being there.