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Mercedes AMG F1 Team Thread (drivers, management, rumours and gossip!)


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#801 kernel

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 18:41

I somewhat agree with you, but I don't think that it was ever his speed that was criticised in 2011. He was overwhelmingly quicker than Jenson, especially in qualifying and unfortunately in many races we never got close to seeing his race pace given the frequent car bonding experience between he and Massa.

 

The fact is, and it can't be skirted around, he was soundly beaten over the season by Jenson. 270 points to 227. P2 to P5. Being beaten by a team mate so soundly was deserving of criticism, and yes, mainly because of Lewis' high calibre. It's the same reason no one completely freaks out over Stroll being beaten by a team mate, while Seb being beaten by Leclerc rings alarm bells.

 

I largely agree with you that Lewis gets held to a ridiculously high standard over and above the other drivers, but I still don't think criticism of his 2011 is a good example of that.

 

He did manage to score a pole and equalled Button in wins. Was also massively unlucky in GPs like Monaco or Hungary where he easily had the measure of Jenson. That's not to say he was better than Button, Button was amazingly consistent and probably drove his finest season that year, but Hamilton had higher highs (that he couldn't keep up throughout the year due to mistakes or bad breaks).



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#802 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 18:45

Berger's words are nice to hear, but nothing more. We already know that Lewis Hamilton is a very good Formula 1 driver.

Whilst it wasn't Berger's intention, I feel like these comments are almost deliberately inflammatory to grab a headline. There is always a subtle power struggle between the fans and media to proclaim "X driver" or "Y constructor" the best. It's tiresome after following the sport for so long.

Hamilton is nothing like Senna, either. At all. Not anymore.

Correct he's Hamilton Prost now......  ;)



#803 OO7

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 22:20

Berger's words are nice to hear, but nothing more. We already know that Lewis Hamilton is a very good Formula 1 driver.

Whilst it wasn't Berger's intention, I feel like these comments are almost deliberately inflammatory to grab a headline. There is always a subtle power struggle between the fans and media to proclaim "X driver" or "Y constructor" the best. It's tiresome after following the sport for so long.

Hamilton is nothing like Senna, either. At all. Not anymore.

Care to elaborate Tom?



#804 TomNokoe

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 06:56

Care to elaborate Tom?

Ah, it's sketchy. I didn't watch Senna's era of F1, but it felt like Hamilton had similar traits - uncompromising racecraft, fantastic in the wet, beat a world-champion teammate, "taking on the establishment", very emotional in the car, etc... the whole "driving for McLaren wearing a yellow helmet" topped it off :lol: and Lewis himself did like to play into the narrative.

I'm not sure, maybe I was just trying to reinforce my initial point that they're nothing alike. I don't want to talk about how I see him nowadays because, as Gillesfan76 said, it's impossible. Your relationship with your engineers is often more important than your relationship with the car!

Edited by TomNokoe, 25 April 2019 - 06:57.


#805 Retrofly

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 11:34

I dislike direct comparisons with other drivers, Hamilton/Senna/Schumacher are there own drivers, I think its fine to compare certain aspects of their driving etc but I don't like this "Senna like" guff, it doesn't mean anything.



#806 JonnyJ

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 11:44

I'm not sure Berger was comparing him to Senna personality or driving wise. Simply saying his level of driving is up there with someone he previously saw without peer.

#807 Hela

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 11:47

I'm not sure Berger was comparing him to Senna personality or driving wise. Simply saying his level of driving is up there with someone he previously saw without peer.

 

That is what I thought as well



#808 beachdrifter

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 19:29

Lewis has finished 5th, 5th and 1st in Baku so far. Talk about mixed fortunes! 

 

I guess statistically, that makes this one of his worst tracks on the current calendar?


Edited by beachdrifter, 25 April 2019 - 19:30.


#809 sabjit

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 19:44

Lewis has finished 5th, 5th and 1st in Baku so far. Talk about mixed fortunes! 

 

I guess statistically, that makes this one of his worst tracks on the current calendar?

 

Small sample size there



#810 Marklar

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 20:20

33 % win ratio, which is the same as in Bahrain, Barcelona and Spa. Higher than in Melbourne (15 %, lol), Sao Paulo (15 %), Monaco (17 %), Spielberg (20 %) and Mexico (25 %).

At best the podium ratio would speak for it: 33 % is the worst, Sao Paulo is next with 41 %.

I think people underestimate him here. He was incredible quick in practice in 2016 and suddenly lost it in quali. Quali and race performance in both 2017 and 2018 were excellent (minus the lock up in the race last year). He is good at this track, but I think ut's difficult to be consistent at here so odd things like in 2016 can happen.

Edited by Marklar, 25 April 2019 - 20:24.


#811 beachdrifter

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 20:24

I was thinking average finishing position! 



#812 SonGoku

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 20:46

Also not a big fan of the Senna comparison, but atleast Berger respects greatness and I can't say the same about a lot of Lewis countrymen.



#813 Marklar

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 20:55

I was thinking average finishing position! 

3.67

Beaten by Monaco (4.25), Barcelona (4.1), Mexico (4.0), Bahrain (3.83). Same as in Silverstone (3.67)

*DNFs excluded obviously. Silverstone had a large outlier in 2009, but then again Baku is anyways not exactly fair with the small sample size and the misfortune in 2017.
 



#814 beachdrifter

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 21:03

3.67

Beaten by Monaco (4.25), Barcelona (4.1), Mexico (4.0), Bahrain (3.83). Same as in Silverstone (3.67)

*DNFs excluded obviously. Silverstone had a large outlier in 2009, but then again Baku is anyways not exactly fair with the small sample size and the misfortune in 2017.
 

 

Barcelona is the surprise for me here! I guess especially while still being under the influence of last year's dominant win. Also Silverstone being in the mix for worst. 

 

Considering Baku, Barcelona and Monaco will be next, this is probably another stretch where Bottas likes his chances.


Edited by beachdrifter, 25 April 2019 - 21:08.


#815 CountDooku

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 21:21

Why is everyone comparing Hamilton to Senna when we all know he’s more like Prost? 🤷🏽‍♀️

#816 Marklar

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 21:35

Barcelona is the surprise for me here! I guess especially while still being under the influence of last year's dominant win. Also Silverstone being in the mix for worst. 

 

Considering Baku, Barcelona and Monaco will be next, this is probably another stretch where Bottas likes his chances.

Hamilton has improved a lot in Barcelona in the last couple of years. And he is far better in both Monaco and Baku than his stats would suggest.

I actualy think that Bottas has equal/better chances in Montreal (like Shanghai and Budapest it doesnt seem to be anymore a best track for Hamilton) and Spielberg (a Bottas track and one of Hamilton's worst tracks)

But at the end I think that Hamilton nowadays can put everywhere a incredible performance in, but also disappoint, with near the same probability for each track. I would put Bottas' relative chances more down to which tracks historically suit him (e.g. Spielberg, Sochi, Bahrain, etc.). Though Bottas was a Suzuka specialist during his Williams time, while Hamilton was struggling against all of his team mates, yet in both 2017 and 2018 there was no doubt that he was quicker - underlining once again how much he improved over the years on high speed tracks like Barcelona, Silverstone, Spa and Suzuka.



#817 SonGoku

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 22:00

Problem is that the tyres and getting the setup right is almost hitting the lottery these days. You can excell and disappoint on your favourite tracks.


Edited by SonGoku, 25 April 2019 - 22:01.


#818 milestone 11

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 22:07

Lewis has finished 5th, 5th and 1st in Baku so far. Talk about mixed fortunes! 
 

He had '17 wrapped up were it not for the head rest

#819 Retrofly

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 10:31

Well that makes up for '18 where he shouldn't have won.



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#820 Marklar

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 10:58

I'm not really sure if Baku 2018 was a "he shouldnt have won" race. People keep saying Bottas was the deserved winner, but Bottas would have finished 3rd without Safety Car luck, while showcasting his usual underwhelming race pace. Vettel was the safe winner until then, then he botched it away when he tried to retake the lead after his misfortune. Hamilton had a similar mistake earlier in the race, but he would have probably still finished where he was in 2nd behind Vettel and ahead of Bottas (although this was going to be close). This race didnt really had anyone in the end who "should have won it" IMO.



#821 Shuffle

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 11:31

I'm not really sure if Baku 2018 was a "he shouldnt have won" race. People keep saying Bottas was the deserved winner, but Bottas would have finished 3rd without Safety Car luck, while showcasting his usual underwhelming race pace. Vettel was the safe winner until then, then he botched it away when he tried to retake the lead after his misfortune. Hamilton had a similar mistake earlier in the race, but he would have probably still finished where he was in 2nd behind Vettel and ahead of Bottas (although this was going to be close). This race didnt really had anyone in the end who "should have won it" IMO.

I'm not sure it's quite right that Bottas would have finished 3rd without the safety car. My recollection (admittedly this is from 1 year ago so maybe I'm talking crap), is that it looked like Bottas could win even without the SC as he was going to go straight onto the Ultras at the end, whereas Ferrari had been cautious and put Vettel on Softs.



#822 kernel

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 11:36

I'm not sure it's quite right that Bottas would have finished 3rd without the safety car. My recollection (admittedly this is from 1 year ago so maybe I'm talking crap), is that it looked like Bottas could win even without the SC as he was going to go straight onto the Ultras at the end, whereas Ferrari had been cautious and put Vettel on Softs.

 

Wasn't Bottas trailing Vettel by 10 seconds at least (at the time of his pit stop)? I believe he was about to overcut Lewis, but Lewis had been gapped by Vettel following his flat spot.



#823 Shuffle

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 11:52

Wasn't Bottas trailing Vettel by 10 seconds at least (at the time of his pit stop)? I believe he was about to overcut Lewis, but Lewis had been gapped by Vettel following his flat spot.

I think it was around that yeah, he was going to have about 10 laps to catch him on fresh Ultras against Vettel's 10ish lap old Softs. I don't know what the delta between the tyres was but it looked like he had a good chance. It looked like another classic Ferrari strategy fail.

 

He definitely would have gotten 2nd I think, even if he came out behind Hamilton, they'd have just swapped the cars. (Or Bottas would have driven clean past him with his huge tyre adv.)



#824 Marklar

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 12:09

Tyres were behaving weirdly that weekend. Old tyres appeared to be quicker and Ultras werent working well. There is always the chance that he could have found the sweet spot in the final stint and make up those 10+ seconds, but it seemed very unlikely given the tyre delta in relation to his weaker pace in general to Vettel. 2nd place is a different matter, if the tyres switch on then yes. If not (which seemed to be happen a lot), then probably not. It looked like a Ferrari strategy **** up because people were fearing all the time that a SC can occur (which eventually happened), thus killing his gap if Bottas pits later. Without SC though Ferrari was pretty save to win.

The point is more like: People are acting like Bottas lost a win he fough out, this wasnt the case. He got it handed at that point (like Hamilton got it handed in Bahrain). You could say he got lucky and then unlucky. Shanghai the race before was much more like that, because there he genuinely had the lead (although thanks to Ferrari's pitwall) and got ****ed over by the Safety Car, but since this race had with Ricciardo a popular and spectacular winner nobody cared anywhere near as much (and a tyre puncture is probably more dramatic than a SC screw up I assume).

Edited by Marklar, 26 April 2019 - 12:10.


#825 Lights

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 14:55

*grabs popcorn



#826 NateF

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 14:56

*grabs popcorn


🍿

#827 beachdrifter

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 14:57

Bottas got the tow!  :up:  Great performance!



#828 FrontWing

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 14:58

Nice front row lock out. Bit of a balls up for Lewis at the end though. Why the hell did Merc do a practice start?

#829 NateF

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 14:58

Well maybe that practise start will come in handy now

#830 sabjit

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 14:58

This team should run a post service.

 

They always deliver.



#831 NateF

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 14:59

Why do people think Bottas deliberately impinged Hamilton?

#832 peroa

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:02

Why do people think Bottas deliberately impinged Hamilton?

Well, it was more a case of the team compromising Ham’s warmup lap for absolutely no reason.

#833 monolulu

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:02

Why do people think Bottas deliberately impinged Hamilton?


It wasn’t Bottas fault it was Mercs. They were lucky to still lock out front row.

Edited by monolulu, 27 April 2019 - 15:02.


#834 Synkro89

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:02

Why do people think Bottas deliberately impinged Hamilton?

Bottas got the job done. Lewis didn't but that prep lap was a load of bull.


Edited by Synkro89, 27 April 2019 - 15:03.


#835 NateF

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:04

Thanks for the responses, if this is the worst Mercedes cockup then it’s going to be a great season for them.

#836 f1supreme

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:05

Bottas got the job done. Lewis didn't but that prep lap was a load of bull.

its hard to get the job done when your first sector is compromised 

bottas did a great job but wasn't held back at the start of his lap.



#837 SonGoku

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:07

Positioning your car is also part of the deal, I already didn't understand why Hamilton just didn't go on his own, he clearly had the speed, so why follow BOT.



#838 RECKLESS

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:07

Delivered when it mattered! Take a bow Bottas!!

#839 FrontWing

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:09

Positioning your car is also part of the deal, I already didn't understand why Hamilton just didn't go on his own, he clearly had the speed, so why follow BOT.

Team orders I suppose.

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#840 peroa

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:09

Positioning your car is also part of the deal, I already didn't understand why Hamilton just didn't go on his own, he clearly had the speed, so why follow BOT.

Gotta ask Vowles that question, I guess he was just inspired to do so.

#841 Mercstar

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:10

Shame about Hamilton's outlap, definitely cost him the pole, but great team result on a weekend where Ferrari had the upper hand. 



#842 P123

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:12

I think Merc gave themselves a bit of a headache in order to chase the tow. Coming to a near stop as Lewis had to in order to create a gap (must have been tempting to fly past Bottas) wasn't ideal before the start of the lap but he dug it out and Bottas got it together too. The tow in the end helped them get ahead of Vettel, but have to wonder if the yhad just went for it they may have been better off.

Bottas should be able to control the start tomorrow as very short run to T1, but there is always some sort of madness in the race here (as he knows!).

#843 Marklar

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:12

Thanks for the responses, if this is the worst Mercedes cockup then it’s going to be a great season for them.

They ****ed it up massively, but on the other hand their drivers still got the 1-2. That's one of their strength, their mistakes usually dont backfire much - unlike Ferrari.

But yeah, if Hamilton replicates his S1, which he likely would have if he wasnt in the literally worst position, he would have been by a very large gap ahead. But since he appears clearly quicker he is certainly the favourite for tomorrow regardless, providing the start works (though Baku can throw out oddballs regardless)



#844 TomNokoe

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:12

Quick point

Hamilton starts on tyres that completed

Out
Hot
Cool
Hot S1-In (red flag)

Bottas starts on tyres that completed
Out
Hot
In

Shouldn't make a difference.

#845 FrontWing

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:13

Race could be quite tasty at the start with cold tyres and that long back straight... Lewis will be quite annoyed, he had more pace than Bottas.

Edited by FrontWing, 27 April 2019 - 15:13.


#846 rodlamas

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:16

Wasn't Bottas trailing Vettel by 10 seconds at least (at the time of his pit stop)? I believe he was about to overcut Lewis, but Lewis had been gapped by Vettel following his flat spot.

He was 13 seconds ahead of Vettel when the SC went out and a a pitstop was costing in between 19 to 20 seconds. Lewis would have been told to move over so that VB could attack Vettel. It would have been an epic finish. But the blowjo*ism that Marko and Horner promote around Max made them mismanage the drivers again and prevented us form an epic finish.



#847 geralt

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:19

It's Baku, so starting from pole doesn't mean much (like, I still wouldn't count out Leclerc from the race win), but that was a good job from Valtteri who's now got more poles than Hamilton this season...

 

Lewis was surprisingly upbeat in the post quali interview, when I would have expected him to be more annoyed as he had the pace. Very much looking forward to tomorrow, it should be an awesome race



#848 Dicun

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:23

They ****ed it up massively

 

I know I self-inflict a ganging up on myself with this, but what the heck, Lando got 7th, this is a great day regardless.

 

So, Lewis not getting pole = **** up from the team? You guys are hilarious  :rotfl:



#849 FrontWing

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:29

I know I self-inflict a ganging up on myself with this, but what the heck, Lando got 7th, this is a great day regardless.

So, Lewis not getting pole = **** up from the team? You guys are hilarious :rotfl:

You're quite hilarious too.

#850 Marklar

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 15:32

I know I self-inflict a ganging up on myself with this, but what the heck, Lando got 7th, this is a great day regardless.

So, Lewis not getting pole = **** up from the team? You guys are hilarious :rotfl:

No no, this is not what I mean lmao

Also out of context quoting, meh :p

It is technically a *huge* operational error on a track like Baku to give your drivers a warm up lap like this. Obviously it hit more drivers (like in China), but they put themselves in the worst position of all (Hamilton the most of course because the last is always screwed if you are running against the countdown).

They got lucky that Ferrari was suddenly nowhere, otherwise this would have costed pole. Or maybe they can afford to do this exactly because of that.