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2019 Red Bull: Max Verstappen and friends vs the world. Oh, and Gasly is there too.


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#801 Myrvold

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 20:35

Driver must secure 40 Points in the last 3 seasons

 

O'Ward:

 

2018: Indy Lights: 1st -> 15 points

2017: IMSA Prototype: 1st -> 18 points

2016: Formula 4: 3rd -> 12 points

2016: Pro Mazda: 2nd -> 10 points

 

You have probably read about it elsewhere already.

2018 Indy Lights doesn't qualify for full points.

Only one of the 2016-ones can count.
IMSA Prototype is likely meant for Dpi/LMP2, not the PC-class. If it also goes for PC-class for some weird reason - there was just 3 cars doing the season. So that's not full points at all.



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#802 Jbleroi

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 20:56

Ok, nice race from Max today! The difference with Mercedes wasn't as big as expected. Till the SC he drove about 7 seconds behind Bottas and 13 seconds behind Hamilton. It would have been 11 seconds behind Bottas and 21 seconds behind Hamilton at the finish without SC. That's better then last year when it was

If we look at the time difference between RB and Mercedes at the Spanish GP:

2017: 1 minute, 14 seconds (Ricciardo)
2018: 27 seconds (Verstappen)
2019: Would have been 21 seconds (Verstappen)

We all know RB won a couple of races in 2017 and 2018 and were on par with Mercedes at the end of the season.


Merc turned their engine down after the first lap 100% sure

#803 Mick34

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 21:15

Merc turned their engine down after the first lap 100% sure

 

Probably, but they would have done it also last year, because Hamilton was 20 seconds in front of the number 2 (Bottas). 



#804 Wolbo

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 21:45

Ok, nice race from Max today! The difference with Mercedes wasn't as big as expected. 

 

Thought so too, until I saw that Bottas' best lap was a full second faster than Max and Hamilton's best lap was 1.3 s faster. This was after the SC when all three were likely at full speed. Mercedes is in a class of its own.



#805 Tiakumosan

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 21:48

Thought so too, until I saw that Bottas' best lap was a full second faster than Max and Hamilton's best lap was 1.3 s faster. This was after the SC when all three were likely at full speed. Mercedes is in a class of its own.

Mercedes were on softs, RBR and Ferrari on mediums, though. Not that they would be on same level.

Edit: Gasly were on softs.

Edited by Tiakumosan, 12 May 2019 - 21:48.


#806 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 21:53

In my memory it was even worse before Baku, wasn’t it?

Still 7/8 tenths per lap.

#807 Jbleroi

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 22:00

Still 7/8 tenths per lap.


Gasly collected some debris in his front wing that resulted in loss of downforce.. there is absolutely no need to compare the two this year, maybe next year but max will still be faster

#808 Ragnar668

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 05:57

Max happy to be back in turd in the championship 



#809 BCM

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 08:04

I don't see Max staying with RB. He'll win his first WDC at Mercedes when Hamilton pulls the pin with the reg changes.

 

Max seemed a bit resigned to me in a couple of the pre-race interviews. He knows he's got no chance this year. And probably next year as well. RB have as big a mountain to climb to get to Mercedes as Renault do to get to RB.



#810 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 09:01

Max stellar again... flawless driving, WDC worthy if he only had the car,, hopefully next year he will have the package.. honda is doing a great job and i am convinced that eventually they will get there

Gasly got promoted (due to ric leaving) one year too early and he is up against max.. the only thing that he can do this year is to focus on his own driving, learn from max constantly finishing in the top 6 and be ready for next year

It's not down to Honda, it's all chassis so far in 2019, it seems. 
Mercedes is generally accepted to have the 2nd best PU, Honda 3rd or 4th. But the gap between running Renault last year and Honda now has more than halved, surely? Red Bull has dropped the ball. I sense that Newey laying out concepts on actual paper may be holding his engineers back. Perhaps he should work more like Allison who admits he does zero engineering himself.
We all know how Max can just drive away from team mates. By now, we might consider what he might achieve in a Haas. If he had 2 tenths on Ricciardo, how much on Grosjean or Magnussen?
I hope Red Bull will fix their chassis. Honda's got this.

Gasly was promoted too early for sure. Max is a beast. He got the promotion after 24 races and was ready on race pace, not even one lap pace immediate. Leclerc is showing (many) flashes of brilliance but not the consistency and race pace to beat Vettel into submission.
For all we know, Gasly can be like Berger or Ricciardo, legend in his own right. But it's a rotten moment. The car is not very welcoming to him, his team mate has the support from the team like a Senna or Schumacher.

It's not even in the team's interest now to get Gasly alongside Max. Max has a chance to get 3rd in the WDC, RBR don't have it in the WCC. If they get on the pace and Max can drive away from the Ferraris consistently, only then does Gasly's performance really matter.
Since there is no succession coming, they may as well just nurture Gasly, show their faith in him and use him to best understand and develop their car. 
Albon is doing well for a rookie that go 3rd in F2. Kvyat is actually becoming his old self (the one that needed only a bit less bad luck to beat Ricciardo). But still it seems best to keep everything calm, stick with these four in these four seats. The previous Kvyat drama showed that it doesn't bring them much. They should have promoted Max sooner and allow Kvyat to get a drive elsewhere rather than use him as canon fodder.

If Marko would come to Kvyat today as say "I'm so sorry Daniil, the team needs you" (a he effectively did already for STR), I would not be surprised if he did better than Gasly within a few races. But it would destabilize the team more than they need. If they'd do it, then to keep the cameras on their tin cans more. What a story that would be. Demoted, demoted, fired, re-hired, promoted. Much cooler sstory than Kubica at this stage. 


Edited by ElectricBoogie, 13 May 2019 - 09:22.


#811 SenorSjon

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 09:09

Gasly collected some debris in his front wing that resulted in loss of downforce.. there is absolutely no need to compare the two this year, maybe next year but max will still be faster

 

Only halfway during the race. He was getting gapped big time. I also thought he could hold up Vettel a bit, but he practically moved aside for him. 



#812 Mick34

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 12:07

Thought so too, until I saw that Bottas' best lap was a full second faster than Max and Hamilton's best lap was 1.3 s faster. This was after the SC when all three were likely at full speed. Mercedes is in a class of its own.

 

Mercedes were on softs and are using their immense qualifying mode to get the fastest lap of the race. On pure racepace, RB is more closer than expected and closer than in the last couple of years. I know Mercedes didn't need to push and might have driven in an low engine-mode, but that was also the case last year when Hamilton leaded with 20 seconds. 

 

The only thing I am a bit worried about is the fact that RB seems to have lost its advantage in (slow) corners. Mercedes has actually found something very interesting mechanically and or on aero/diffusor. Other suggestions are something with rear wheel steering or a 'magical differential'. I hope RB knows what to do next, because the gains to make can be bigger from GP to GP due to the new regulations. 


Edited by Mick34, 13 May 2019 - 12:08.


#813 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 19:05

Has the team or Max explained why they went for softs in the second stint rather than mediums? This meant they gave their tactical game away (third stop needed), meant they couldn’t keep their options open like the others could (no possibility of a one stop) and finally meant the extra set of softs wasn’t used at the optimal time, i.e. in the final stint where the car is light and others on a one stop might be on worn mediums/hards. As it happened with the safety car timing a new set of softs with 20-ish laps to go would have given him a better chance to challenge the Mercs than being on the mediums like everybody else. It may not have made a difference in the end, but I don’t quite see the logic in what the team did..?

Edited by FullOppositeLock, 13 May 2019 - 19:05.


#814 Kao18

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 19:24

Has the team or Max explained why they went for softs in the second stint rather than mediums? This meant they gave their tactical game away (third stop needed), meant they couldn’t keep their options open like the others could (no possibility of a one stop) and finally meant the extra set of softs wasn’t used at the optimal time, i.e. in the final stint where the car is light and others on a one stop might be on worn mediums/hards. As it happened with the safety car timing a new set of softs with 20-ish laps to go would have given him a better chance to challenge the Mercs than being on the mediums like everybody else. It may not have made a difference in the end, but I don’t quite see the logic in what the team did..?

Perhaps they thought they could have a shot at an undercut on Bottas that way? If I remember correctly they came pretty close. Or was that after the second stop? But even then I guess it could have been part of the plan. Try and get track position on Bottas.

If there is a slight chance I know Max likes to look forward instead of what's in his back.

Edited by Kao18, 13 May 2019 - 19:29.


#815 zanquis

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 19:47

Has the team or Max explained why they went for softs in the second stint rather than mediums? This meant they gave their tactical game away (third stop needed), meant they couldn’t keep their options open like the others could (no possibility of a one stop) and finally meant the extra set of softs wasn’t used at the optimal time, i.e. in the final stint where the car is light and others on a one stop might be on worn mediums/hards. As it happened with the safety car timing a new set of softs with 20-ish laps to go would have given him a better chance to challenge the Mercs than being on the mediums like everybody else. It may not have made a difference in the end, but I don’t quite see the logic in what the team did..?


My guess it was planned upfront, given the RedBull, he had a choice between not nursing but not pushing softs for 23 laps towards the finish or having mediums that he could push harder. All season every race the Bulls seems more comfortable on the medium than the softer option.

Anyway I listened to the post race comments from the team and looked at his laptimes and did notice they are much kore consistant in build up than any driver out there. A few come close, but most have twice the fluxtuations that Max has.

#816 ARTGP

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 19:55

Mercedes were on softs and are using their immense qualifying mode to get the fastest lap of the race. On pure racepace, RB is more closer than expected and closer than in the last couple of years. I know Mercedes didn't need to push and might have driven in an low engine-mode, but that was also the case last year when Hamilton leaded with 20 seconds. 

 

The only thing I am a bit worried about is the fact that RB seems to have lost its advantage in (slow) corners. Mercedes has actually found something very interesting mechanically and or on aero/diffusor. Other suggestions are something with rear wheel steering or a 'magical differential'. I hope RB knows what to do next, because the gains to make can be bigger from GP to GP due to the new regulations. 

 

I can't figure out if it's the case that the RB15 is worse in low speed corners than the RB14, or that the Mercedes made a huge leap past the RB14 and RB15 in the low speed.

 

My initial thought was, ok just go back to the RB14 suspension. But it's possible that Merc have simply leapfrogged everyone in the mechanical grip.

 

It's quite remarkable that the longest wheel base car (Merc), has become so effective in the low speed corners compared to shorter cars.  This almost points directly to a steering torque on the rear axle. Whether it comes through the differential or toe angles moving with the suspension load, no one seems to know.


Edited by ARTGP, 15 May 2019 - 19:58.


#817 jAnO76

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 20:02



It's quite remarkable that the longest wheel base car (Merc), has become so effective in the low speed corners compared to shorter cars. This almost points directly to a steering torque on the rear axle. Whether it comes through the differential or toe angles moving with the suspension load, no one seems to know.




SLS AMG Electric Drive by Mercedes

 

streamable.com/efepl


Edited by jAnO76, 15 May 2019 - 20:31.


#818 Pits

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 14:21

https://www.dumpert...._uitgelegd.html

:rotfl:



#819 beachdrifter

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 19:01

Just came back from Zandvoort where I watched Max and Pierre putting in some laps and doughnuts and a ton of interviews! Was great fun, perfect weather, too!

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#820 born1983

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 06:23

Just came back from Zandvoort where I watched Max and Pierre putting in some laps and doughnuts and a ton of interviews! Was great fun, perfect weather, too!


Any new info from interviews? Are they confident they can overtake Ferrari?

#821 KevD

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 14:52

 

It's quite remarkable that the longest wheel base car (Merc), has become so effective in the low speed corners compared to shorter cars.  This almost points directly to a steering torque on the rear axle. Whether it comes through the differential or toe angles moving with the suspension load, no one seems to know.

 

Since torque vectoring is banned they must be exploiting some kind of rear wheel steering magic  :stoned:



#822 beachdrifter

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 17:35

Any new info from interviews? Are they confident they can overtake Ferrari?


Unfortunately they were in Dutch. I didn't understand a word!

#823 ARTGP

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 22:43

I don't see Max staying with RB. He'll win his first WDC at Mercedes when Hamilton pulls the pin with the reg changes.

 

Max seemed a bit resigned to me in a couple of the pre-race interviews. He knows he's got no chance this year. And probably next year as well. RB have as big a mountain to climb to get to Mercedes as Renault do to get to RB.

 

I feel similar. Horner has no idea what he's in for. There's no such thing as "loyalty" in F1...Drivers choose themselves over the team every time. Look at Ricciardo wanting to forge his own path elsewhere. Or how Rosberg dumped Merc after his championship. 

 

If there is a seat open at Mercedes at any point, Horner has to know he's going to need to find another driver because Max is gone. Red Bull aren't fast enough and long term you prefer the might of a german giant steamroller like Mercedes than a "drinks company" with all respect to what they achieved with Vettel.



#824 JBJ

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 12:16

I feel similar. Horner has no idea what he's in for. 

He doesn't?



#825 7MGTEsup

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 15:21

He doesn't?

 

Yeah Geri is dusting off her union jack dress and is that Mel B I hear knocking at the door......



#826 gowebber

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Posted Yesterday, 01:42

Wow didn't know Mark owned one of Sebs old RB6's. Wonder what Seb thinks of that. Cmon Mark get it out for another run!  :D

 

"The Red Bull Racing RB6 that Mark Webber has in his personal car collection is a Sebastian Vettel race winner.

 

Webber was supposed to be given his Monaco GP winner at the end of the 2010 season, however that chassis was destroyed by his infamous backflip in Valencia.
 
Instead he had to settle for chassis 03, which started life as Vettel's 'Luscious Liz' car, and helped the German to victory at that year's Malaysian Grand Prix
 
While not permanently resigned to being a museum piece, Webber hinted that the car is unlikely to run again – despite constant requests from former Porsche teammate Timo Bernhard to have a go.
 
"It could run, but I think I'd need 15 [Renault engineers] over to have a test day somewhere with it. Timo Bernhard, my teammate at Porsche, has always been busting my nuts that 'we've got to do a track day!'
 
"But I'm not as enthusiastic as he is!"
 

https://www.motorspo...vettel/4393279/


Edited by gowebber, Yesterday, 04:30.


#827 MaximumSpeed

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Posted Yesterday, 14:18

The team is not really helping Max out here. 60 minutes lost already

#828 Pits

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Posted Yesterday, 15:42

Shame Max didn't like the set-up in FP2...

Hope they can fix it come saturday



#829 A3

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Posted Yesterday, 16:54

Max had little running in FP2 today after debris got into the air intake and damaged the radiator. He hopes to be able to qualify P3.


Edited by A3, Yesterday, 21:04.


#830 Sparky68

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Posted Yesterday, 20:33

I feel similar. Horner has no idea what he's in for. There's no such thing as "loyalty" in F1...Drivers choose themselves over the team every time. Look at Ricciardo wanting to forge his own path elsewhere. Or how Rosberg dumped Merc after his championship. 

 

If there is a seat open at Mercedes at any point, Horner has to know he's going to need to find another driver because Max is gone. Red Bull aren't fast enough and long term you prefer the might of a german giant steamroller like Mercedes than a "drinks company" with all respect to what they achieved with Vettel.

and as most big teams see BMW,Honda,Toyota , Jaguar etc etc when the coin flips and they are no longer making the brand look good they leave. So its not as clear cut for drivers as you make out.



#831 Thatfastguy

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Posted Yesterday, 21:42

Max had little running in FP2 today after debris got into the air intake and damaged the radiator. He hopes to be able to qualify P3.

Would be a slight miracle tbh. Merc are gonna cruise to another 1-2 by the looks of it so he’d need to outqualify both Ferrari’s. 3rd would be great by considering the shape RB is in these season 4th is more likely.

#832 Ivanhoe

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Posted Yesterday, 22:30

Would be a slight miracle tbh. Merc are gonna cruise to another 1-2 by the looks of it so he’d need to outqualify both Ferrari’s. 3rd would be great by considering the shape RB is in these season 4th is more likely.


P3 a miracle? The best Ferrari is at Gasly’s pace, the 2nd Ferrari 4 tenths behind Gasly. I’d be surprised of one of the Ferrari’s out qualifies Max.

#833 beachdrifter

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Posted Yesterday, 22:34

P3 a miracle? The best Ferrari is at Gasly’s pace, the 2nd Ferrari 4 tenths behind Gasly. I’d be surprised of one of the Ferrari’s out qualifies Max.

 

P3 is what Max expects. Front row only if a Merc driver makes a mistake.


Edited by beachdrifter, Yesterday, 22:35.


#834 RPM40

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Posted Today, 20:32

In Ricciardo’s recent podcast on Rosbergs YouTube he clearly states Verstappen is faster than Vettel. He is the driver that would know too.

Not exactly a shock, but interesting to hear him confirm it

#835 ARTGP

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Posted Today, 21:38

In Ricciardo’s recent podcast on Rosbergs YouTube he clearly states Verstappen is faster than Vettel. He is the driver that would know too.

Not exactly a shock, but interesting to hear him confirm it

 

But at the end of the day this is just speculation. It's quite difficult to create a comparison of who is "faster" because the metric is quite arbitrary considering the speed depends on the car and how the driver is "confident" in the feeling of the car.

 

Neither Vettel or Verstappen are "slow" that's for sure.


Edited by ARTGP, Today, 21:39.


#836 RPM40

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Posted Today, 21:40

But at the end of the day this is just speculation. It's quite difficult to create a comparison of who is "faster" because the metric is quite arbitrary considering the speed depends on the car and how the driver is "confident" in the feeling of the car.

Neither Vettel or Verstappen are "slow" that's for sure.


I disagree that the drivers can’t create an impression of driver performance. Especially at the same team with access to all the data.

#837 ForzaFormula

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Posted Today, 21:55

I disagree that the drivers can’t create an impression of driver performance. Especially at the same team with access to all the data.

 

Exactly, they know better then anyone and all we are seeing so far is that Max is clearly faster than Vettel.

If he can handle the mental pressure on and off track In a tough title challenge remains to be seen, but clearly the speed is there. 



#838 RPM40

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Posted Today, 21:58

Exactly, they know better then anyone and all we are seeing so far is that Max is clearly faster than Vettel.

If he can handle the mental pressure on and off track In a tough title challenge remains to be seen, but clearly the speed is there. 

 

Well, I'd argue Vettel doesn't really do that either. Only outright dominant cars and a weakish team mate got him home, even then only just barely at times.

 

Put Max in that Ferrari and he'd have a clear edge in my view.



#839 CharlesWinstone

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Posted Today, 22:24

Well, I'd argue Vettel doesn't really do that either. Only outright dominant cars and a weakish team mate got him home, even then only just barely at times.

Put Max in that Ferrari and he'd have a clear edge in my view.


Max would have a clear edge on every teammate. But do you considder Charles weakish as well? Because bar Bahrein Seb got the edge on him so far.