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2019 Red Bull: Max Verstappen and friends vs the world. Oh, and there was Gasly too before Albon took over


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#5101 Clatter

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 20:49

Honda yet have to prove they’re competitive in terms of performance and reliability/durability, a performance clause will most likelay refer to the total package, not to the PU alone.

 


By that standard of thinking, other than Merc, which manufacturer has?

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#5102 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 22:57

RBR might want to give both Kvyat and Gasly run time early on in the new car. If either falls in love with it more than Albon, that might be super important. Gasly hated the RBR more than Albon did, but in the end Albon couldn't really find pace even if he did find decent track craft. We'l never know, but it's hard to imagine Kvyat suffering more in that car than Gasly did. They whole "pressure" thing is something RBR need to look themselves in the mirror for. They need to get the best out of a driver, not make it hard as possible. Fast cars can be divas, that's between a driver, engineer and design team. Let's not do a whole season with Albon if perhaps Kvyat can tango with that car, eyes closed. Dude can haul points like a boss, and not use from a lonely race either.



#5103 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 23:40

Don’t agree with that at all. Kvyat has had plenty of chances and may consider himself very lucky to still have an F1 drive. Albon had a strong rookie season with a difficult mid season switch. He has shown quite good racecraft and fully deserves a preseason and a full season to prove if he can grow to be an effective wingman to Max, without pressure of his seast being under threath from the off, especially from a relative no mark like Kvyat. One full season. If he can’t get to within a few tenths on average tops by all means do promote Gasly once more or bring in a good number two from outside, but not before Albon has had a fair crack at the whip.

#5104 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 10 January 2020 - 01:33

Don’t agree with that at all. Kvyat has had plenty of chances and may consider himself very lucky to still have an F1 drive. Albon had a strong rookie season with a difficult mid season switch. He has shown quite good racecraft and fully deserves a preseason and a full season to prove if he can grow to be an effective wingman to Max, without pressure of his seast being under threath from the off, especially from a relative no mark like Kvyat. One full season. If he can’t get to within a few tenths on average tops by all means do promote Gasly once more or bring in a good number two from outside, but not before Albon has had a fair crack at the whip.

All we know is that neither convincingly got within the same half second as Max, only a fluke equal quali time that wasn't spoken about much, or maybe enough.
Race pace difference was horrible. Over at McLaren, Norris (albeit a bit more experienced in F1 and his team) beat Sainz (3rd best driver of the season?) in quali.
There was something going on with driver comfort in that RBR car.
If that thing is present again, what chance does Albon stand after being a steady half second behind over half a second, to suddenly close that? I feel it should really come from the car and the engineers. And if it's not there, we have the worst two drivers in F1 on our hands. Max is good, but not that good, surely? Data is shared well within the team as far as I know.
If two drivers can't get to terms with the car, Kvyat may well do better. He's another driver, slightly more experienced in dealing with a car that really needs to be pushed from lack straightline speed (2015 RB). The real man for the job is Ricciardo, but we discuss him enough.



#5105 SenorSjon

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Posted 10 January 2020 - 11:01

While I agree that he potentially dodged a bullet (explanation down below) here I wouldnt compare him to the Mercedes juniors here though. When Rosberg retired Wehrlein just finished his first season where he only marginally outqualified Ryo Haryanto. The quality was missing here clearly. So say Verstappen wins GP2 in 2015 and has a strong rookie season in 2016 he would have been in a much better position than Wehrlein was back then.

But that's easier said than done of course: there would have been plenty ways to wreck his career too. Many drivers have stalled in GP2 before, and even if he was super mega promising in 2016 Mercedes might have still passed up on him on the grounds of team harmony ™. And even if they would have taken him, facing peak Hamilton in only your 2nd season at age 19 doesnt seem like the greatest idea. As is being parked for years at Racing Point and such.

Ironically Red Bull's position in the last few years as a top team that occasionally wins races (but doesnt have the scrunity of championship fights) and occasionally has to figh trough or against the midfield teams is probably the best platform you can develop on. In midfield teams like Toro Rosso or Racing Point you never (or hardly ever) get to fight for wins or podiums, at Mercedes you hardly ever fight beyond the top 3.

 

Agree. The 2015 F2-champion was the then 22 year old Vandoorne. I doubt he would ran away with the title with Verstappen around, but the cars and tires are fickle and perhaps not a good start for someone in his second season in cars. But Vandoorne couldn't make it work in F1. Gasly finished an unimpressive 8th in his second GP2 year for instance.

 

Seeing the class of 2015 https://en.wikipedia...2015_GP2_Series half a decade (pun intended) later and only Rossi has a career of note besides Vandoorne. 

 

Verstappen did stick out in the Toro Rosso though. He was quite fast up to speed and was outqualifying Sainz quite fast. And with his youth, he was under the magnifying glass a lot (and it got them penalties quite fast imo).



#5106 Rinehart

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Posted 10 January 2020 - 11:12

Many driver contracts have a works engine deal clause.  

Do they?

Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault driver contracts wouldn't have one as its implicit since they are already works teams! I doubt Vettel needs a Ferrari clause to state that the car is guaranteed to have a Ferrari engine! 

The likes of Haas, Williams, RP, Alfa and McLaren cannot insert this clause as its simply not something they can offer currently as they don't have works engines.

I doubt it's necessary for Torro Rosso either since this is a junior program the drivers are in no position to demand such guarantees.

So it really only affects Red Bull currently.

I therefore conclude you made that up/



#5107 Rinehart

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Posted 10 January 2020 - 11:19

Curiously, of those above him, only one entered the sport during a period of absolute dominance by a single team. Fernando, who took longest. And for him to take the crown it took the FIA rewriting the rulebook in order to stop Ferrari's advantage, demoting them to third best team.

 

Max has been driving in an era of utter dominance by one team - longer than we have ever witnessed before. 

 

Seriously - what are you getting at here? 

Hi age, dominance etc are all reasons but the inescapable fact remains all other multiple champions/next big things had won their first title by their 6th competing season, with the exception of Hakkinen. 

 

What are we getting at here? I dunno, nothing too controversial or threatening I would suggest theorising that the landscape of F1 has changed, that he might be one of those unlucky drivers like Alonso or Mansell that perhaps don't reach as much success as was expected or perhaps it was a mistake for Verstappen to arrive so early or commit so early to certain contracts. It's just chewing the fat but its got to be an itch for team Verstappen that things are not going as expected... yet... 

 

My personal opinion is that he might not have the head for a tough championship fight when it does arrive...


Edited by Rinehart, 10 January 2020 - 11:20.


#5108 Rinehart

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Posted 10 January 2020 - 11:21

Fair enough, but the dominant team did hire in a new driver in that time.

Twice since they also retained Bottas. Plus the other dominant team has hired a driver in that time. 



#5109 Augurk

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Posted 10 January 2020 - 11:48

Hi age, dominance etc are all reasons but the inescapable fact remains all other multiple champions/next big things had won their first title by their 6th competing season, with the exception of Hakkinen. 

 

What are we getting at here? I dunno, nothing too controversial or threatening I would suggest theorising that the landscape of F1 has changed, that he might be one of those unlucky drivers like Alonso or Mansell that perhaps don't reach as much success as was expected or perhaps it was a mistake for Verstappen to arrive so early or commit so early to certain contracts. It's just chewing the fat but its got to be an itch for team Verstappen that things are not going as expected... yet... 

Upon reading my post I see the last line comes accross at rather harsh, which was not my intent. I see what you and baddog are "getting at". However, I think the start of his career has been marked by an unprecedented long streak of domination by a single team - that preferred to stick with the winning formula in stead of possibly upsetting it. After Rosberg it seemed Mercedes never really intended to have two stars in the car. So as this period doesn't have its precedent in the history of F1 I think comparisons to previous multiple champions are missing the mark - aided by the fact that Max is still younger than all of them were when they took their first WDC. They just hung around the junior formulae and other race classes longer. 

 

If you make the comparison based on years of experience in car racing the picture would look totally different.

 

If Williams continued its dominance without interruption up til 1997 Schumacher would've had no chance. If Ferrari wasn't handicapped by the rule changes Fernando would've had to wait longer and maybe even have no WDCs at all. Hamilton started his F1 career in a car that was capable of winning the WDC. Seb has the more comparable start of his career, yet also needed a big rule change (in a period of changing orders every year down the grid) and Red Bull to knock it out of the park. 

 

If Max and Red Bull take it in 2020 it will not be comparable to anyone else's - during (the majority of) stable rule changes, climbing up to challenge the most dominant F1 team in F1 history. 

 

 

 

 

My personal opinion is that he might not have the head for a tough championship fight when it does arrive...

 

We'll have to wait and see. There's surely plenty that share that opinion and a lot that don't. Truth is we haven't seen him in a serious WDC fight yet so hard to tell.



#5110 Rinehart

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 09:57

Upon reading my post I see the last line comes accross at rather harsh, which was not my intent. I see what you and baddog are "getting at". However, I think the start of his career has been marked by an unprecedented long streak of domination by a single team - that preferred to stick with the winning formula in stead of possibly upsetting it. After Rosberg it seemed Mercedes never really intended to have two stars in the car. So as this period doesn't have its precedent in the history of F1 I think comparisons to previous multiple champions are missing the mark - aided by the fact that Max is still younger than all of them were when they took their first WDC. They just hung around the junior formulae and other race classes longer. 

 

If you make the comparison based on years of experience in car racing the picture would look totally different.

 

If Williams continued its dominance without interruption up til 1997 Schumacher would've had no chance. If Ferrari wasn't handicapped by the rule changes Fernando would've had to wait longer and maybe even have no WDCs at all. Hamilton started his F1 career in a car that was capable of winning the WDC. Seb has the more comparable start of his career, yet also needed a big rule change (in a period of changing orders every year down the grid) and Red Bull to knock it out of the park. 

 

If Max and Red Bull take it in 2020 it will not be comparable to anyone else's - during (the majority of) stable rule changes, climbing up to challenge the most dominant F1 team in F1 history. 

 

 

 

We'll have to wait and see. There's surely plenty that share that opinion and a lot that don't. Truth is we haven't seen him in a serious WDC fight yet so hard to tell.

 

All fair points, Augurk.  :up:



#5111 HeadFirst

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 16:48

Hi age, dominance etc are all reasons but the inescapable fact remains all other multiple champions/next big things had won their first title by their 6th competing season, with the exception of Hakkinen. 

 

What are we getting at here? I dunno, nothing too controversial or threatening I would suggest theorising that the landscape of F1 has changed, that he might be one of those unlucky drivers like Alonso or Mansell that perhaps don't reach as much success as was expected or perhaps it was a mistake for Verstappen to arrive so early or commit so early to certain contracts. It's just chewing the fat but its got to be an itch for team Verstappen that things are not going as expected... yet... 

 

My personal opinion is that he might not have the head for a tough championship fight when it does arrive...

 

I am far less worried about Max's head for a tough fight, than I am about Honda's engine.



#5112 Requiem84

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 16:51

We didn't see Hamilton having to take risks for a long time now, especially since Rosberg left. 

 

The last time he was taking risks (in Brazil), it didn't end wel for him either. 

 

How will Hamilton respond when he has a slower PU and has to go for more risky overtakes? How will he respond when he's fighting Max in a stronger car? Those questions are equally unanswered as the question how Max will be in a WDC fight imo. 



#5113 Marklar

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 17:02

 

How will Hamilton respond when he has a slower PU and has to go for more risky overtakes?

That's what he did in 2018?

Of all the questions you have here I only really question the bit where how will respond if Max has a better car. With Vettel and Rosberg he knew that he is better than them. Does the same apply when it comes to Verstappen especially if he starts getting older? Only Hamilton knows. Though of course the same somehow applies to Verstappen: he might say all those things about how he is 2 tenths better than anyone, but whether he thinks deep down the same and how that transpires on track is a different matter.

Point is: While it's true that there are always unanswered questions for any driver technically, there are always less questionmarks behind someone who proved most things already.



#5114 DeKnyff

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 21:01

We didn't see Hamilton having to take risks for a long time now, especially since Rosberg left. 

 

The last time he was taking risks (in Brazil), it didn't end wel for him either. 

 

How will Hamilton respond when he has a slower PU and has to go for more risky overtakes? How will he respond when he's fighting Max in a stronger car? Those questions are equally unanswered as the question how Max will be in a WDC fight imo. 

Hamilton didn't have a slower PU, but he had a less aero efficient car than the Red Bulls in 2009-2012. He had some hot moments in 2011 but, other than this, he was generally mistake-free all along the period.


Edited by DeKnyff, 14 January 2020 - 21:01.


#5115 Requiem84

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 08:32

Hamilton didn't have a slower PU, but he had a less aero efficient car than the Red Bulls in 2009-2012. He had some hot moments in 2011 but, other than this, he was generally mistake-free all along the period.

 

That is not how I remember it. 

 

In 2009 he was struggling badly until Nurburgring, sure, didn't make too many mistakes. In 2010 he had quite a few contacts (Webber at Singapore, At Monza too in the Chicane 2, don't remember with whom). 2011 was comparable with Max first 6 races of 2018. 2012 the Mclaren was a match for RB in terms of speed, but realiability was shoddy. But it also had moments like Valencia 2012 with Maldonado. 

 

... 

 


That's what he did in 2018?

Of all the questions you have here I only really question the bit where how will respond if Max has a better car. With Vettel and Rosberg he knew that he is better than them. Does the same apply when it comes to Verstappen especially if he starts getting older? Only Hamilton knows. Though of course the same somehow applies to Verstappen: he might say all those things about how he is 2 tenths better than anyone, but whether he thinks deep down the same and how that transpires on track is a different matter.

Point is: While it's true that there are always unanswered questions for any driver technically, there are always less questionmarks behind someone who proved most things already.



#5116 SenorSjon

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 12:50

That's what he did in 2018?

Of all the questions you have here I only really question the bit where how will respond if Max has a better car. With Vettel and Rosberg he knew that he is better than them. Does the same apply when it comes to Verstappen especially if he starts getting older? Only Hamilton knows. Though of course the same somehow applies to Verstappen: he might say all those things about how he is 2 tenths better than anyone, but whether he thinks deep down the same and how that transpires on track is a different matter.

Point is: While it's true that there are always unanswered questions for any driver technically, there are always less questionmarks behind someone who proved most things already.

 

In 2018 he could rely on Vettel imploding. ;) They didn't have that much direct battles...



#5117 Marklar

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 12:56

In 2018 he could rely on Vettel imploding.  ;) They didn't have that much direct battles...

Well, he overtook Vettel with a weaker PU in Russia, Kimi in Italy in 2018 for example. And last year Vettel again in Bahrain (before he spun). Arguably Verstappen in Mexico too  :p  ducks for cover. Not counting the overtakes on much fresher tyres like against Leclerc in Austin (?) of course.

Sure, not many battles, and on some occasions he probably could have overtaken even more (but didnt for good reasons, percentage game and all that), but seems like an odd thing to question. Especially as the only attempt that truly failed in the last 4 years was him going all in on a dead rubber race.

The PU is not everything when it comes to overtaking, as we've seen with Red Bull over the years.


Edited by Marklar, 15 January 2020 - 13:05.


#5118 SenorSjon

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 13:07

No, but the PU advantage/car Mercedes had gave them a safe overtake margin. I compare it with Ricciardo who only had penalty points for Baku 2018, but before and after nothing. He moves to Renault to scrap in the midfield and he collected 7 points past season.

 

Likewise, a Merc driver usually is clear of (non-self inflicted) trouble and will have less risks upon him during the race. 



#5119 Marklar

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 13:20

No, but the PU advantage/car Mercedes had gave them a safe overtake margin. I compare it with Ricciardo who only had penalty points for Baku 2018, but before and after nothing. He moves to Renault to scrap in the midfield and he collected 7 points past season.

 

Likewise, a Merc driver usually is clear of (non-self inflicted) trouble and will have less risks upon him during the race. 

Well, yeah, the car advantage is a different matter. And actually Ricciardo is the proof that it's more about the car than the engine because he has a much more competitive engine now than in the past where he was considered a stellar overtaker.

I still dont really get this though. Hamilton has proved time and time again that he does (relatively) well regardless how good his car is (again, 2018 springs to my mind) and even before the Turbo hybrid era he was largely error-free in 2012/13. And considering his experience everything except of 2011 (and to some extent 2008) was fine too. There is very little basis to question him in this aspect, although it could of course happen that he struggles for whatever reason, but this applies then to everyone in every aspect.


Edited by Marklar, 15 January 2020 - 13:20.


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#5120 Requiem84

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 13:31

Well, yeah, the car advantage is a different matter. And actually Ricciardo is the proof that it's more about the car than the engine because he has a much more competitive engine now than in the past where he was considered a stellar overtaker.

I still dont really get this though. Hamilton has proved time and time again that he does (relatively) well regardless how good his car is (again, 2018 springs to my mind) and even before the Turbo hybrid era he was largely error-free in 2012/13. And considering his experience everything except of 2011 (and to some extent 2008) was fine too. There is very little basis to question him in this aspect, although it could of course happen that he struggles for whatever reason, but this applies then to everyone in every aspect.

 

Had Hamilton been in a RB in 2014-2019, how do you think he would have done (versus a clone of himself in a Mercedes)?



#5121 noikeee

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 13:31

I still dont really get this though. Hamilton has proved time and time again that he does (relatively) well regardless how good his car is (again, 2018 springs to my mind) and even before the Turbo hybrid era he was largely error-free in 2012/13. And considering his experience everything except of 2011 (and to some extent 2008) was fine too.

 

He was absolutely exceptional in 2009, specially the 2nd half of the season when he grabbed a couple of wins, with what was essentially a McLaren team gradually attempting to get out of the midfield with a car that had started the season absolutely awful. So that's 11 years now that I've not had any doubts that Hamilton can deliver in a bad car.



#5122 Marklar

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 13:37

Had Hamilton been in a RB in 2014-2019, how do you think he would have done (versus a clone of himself in a Mercedes)?

Of course he would have *much* less success, but performance-wise relative to his car I have little doubt that he would be as impressive.* To this day I still think that 2012 was his best season and in that one the McLaren was quite bad half of the races.

You can even make the point that he would perhaps even have looked more impressive. I'm quite sure that Alonso wouldnt have looked as impressive in an all-dominant Red Bull in 11-13 than he did in dragging an uncompetitive Ferrari almost to a title.

*of course there are other factors like motivation after many years without success, but that's a very hypothetical scenario

Edited by Marklar, 15 January 2020 - 13:43.


#5123 prty

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 11:55

https://www.autospor...r-above-average

 

"I usually talk to a driver for about 20 minutes to get a picture of his personality and the whole story, but with Max I sat for half an hour."

 

Marko is a bit full of himself isn't he? :lol:



#5124 Neno

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 13:44

Had Hamilton been in a RB in 2014-2019, how do you think he would have done (versus a clone of himself in a Mercedes)?

Hamilton is magnificent driver. He would be just as equally impressive if not more than Max. Specially at age he is. Top 3 drivers in world I had privilage to watch were Hamilton, Schumi, Alonso. Prime Raikkonen during short period of time given that vibe, but I simply feel after moving from era to another era, different cars and different tires he always lost a bit raw speed when others didn't. Max is great and he certainly has that raw speed, but consistency, longetivity, mistakes are something which differentiate elite from top. And those last two can be gained only through experience, not just experience of driving the car, but driving it at top for long time in fight for title. And that's something Max still needs to experience. Hamilton that had experience since his first season in F1.  And both Alonso and Kimi had it by year 3 or 4.   


Edited by Neno, 26 January 2020 - 22:29.


#5125 wookles

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 15:45

https://www.autospor...r-above-average

 

"I usually talk to a driver for about 20 minutes to get a picture of his personality and the whole story, but with Max I sat for half an hour."

 

Marko is a bit full of himself isn't he? :lol:

 

I liked this bit as well..

 

"Now his development has slowly levelled off and his age and maturity have come together. And both are far above average."

 

Both his age and maturity are above average ? Or perhaps his development and his 'age and maturity' are above average ??

 

Whilst I have a lot of time of Max in general, he's not the most mature of drivers although he's getting a lot better.



#5126 Marklar

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 15:57

i reckon the latter.

ah well, it depends on what your standard is I guess. Compared to Ticktum for instance Max is super mega mature. And maturity is not only about what you say in interviews (where most of the time he does look mature anyway, he just has his low-moments that are far more noticable), but also in how you work behind the stage/on the race track, etc.

Edited by Marklar, 26 January 2020 - 15:59.


#5127 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 16:47

Why we cannot expect Max to convince career wise against Hamilton who's well established as a driver ever can be, we did see him with a stint of like 24 cross-season races that seemed pretty much flawless. A long run indeed, albeit sandwiched between lesser outings. Hamilton with his many highs of course also has off-weekends. Trailing Bottas for a few races, crashing Albon, etc. Not flawless at all, but does get many wins his car and strategy didn't seem to have any shot at.
Max does that as well, win races in a way we wonder whether anyone else would have. That first one in Spain, would Ricciardo have held off Raikkonen on the same strategy, without the puncture? max didn't even know the car much, his first weekend in it.
So far Max had less luck with his team choice and timing. But beating both Ferrari drivers, in the faster car, a 4xWDC and the next coming who beat him, he's earned his place as 2nd best driver on the grid. If Hamilton is ahead, he is because he had more years to mess up, lose focus, but didn't.

Ferrari had its fun with a first and second fastest car in many races over the past few seasons. I do hope Red Bull will manage to get out of the winter better this time, re-shuffle the picking order a bit. The top-3 closer together.
Imagine RBR shifts forward a few tenths making Albon a real nuisance to the Ferraris. And some races actually have really tough fights with Bottas. While it's the Lewis and Max show up front.

People say that Max is bankin gon more Newey genius for the coming years and rule changes. But I fear that his old school wisedom will lose leverage as the way cars need to be simulated and homologated becomes ever more digital.


Edited by ElectricBoogie, 26 January 2020 - 16:54.


#5128 renzmann

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 18:38

People say that Max is bankin gon more Newey genius for the coming years and rule changes. But I fear that his old school wisedom will lose leverage as the way cars need to be simulated and homologated becomes ever more digital.

This is what I'm wondering about every time I see Newey behind that desk. If minor tweaks on the FW make up for crucial differences, than maybe Newey's creativity is useful only for the big picture. On the other hand: That's exactly what RBR needs in 2021.



#5129 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 21:34

Everyone be smart not to discount the genius of Newey, new rules or no new rules, cream rises to the top, his intuitive grasp and understanding of how to design a successful F1 car is better than any current computer, mandated changes will not hold him back.

 

:cool:



#5130 Heyli

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 22:12

https://www.autospor...r-above-average

 

"I usually talk to a driver for about 20 minutes to get a picture of his personality and the whole story, but with Max I sat for half an hour."

 

Marko is a bit full of himself isn't he? :lol:

I also like he presents it like it´s a mega difference... Just 10 minutes more!



#5131 Ivanhoe

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 22:34

It was one and a half our ;-)

 

He was about 15 years old at the time,” said Marko. “I usually talk to a driver for about 20 minutes to get a picture of his personality and the whole story, but with Max I sat for an hour and a half.

 

https://www.motorspo...-marko/4676866/



#5132 Heyli

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 22:58

It was one and a half our ;-)

 

 

 


 

https://www.motorspo...-marko/4676866/

Oh, I misread... Sorry :).



#5133 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 01:35

Would be gold to be a fly on that wall...



#5134 Boxerevo

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Posted 27 January 2020 - 04:10

Well.... other than Mika Hakkinen I can't think of another multiple world champion (the level most people consider Verstappen has the potential to reach) who took more than 6 seasons to claim their first title... so the pressure is on...

He is started too young, there is no comparison.

 

The past is in the past, thats why with each day passing by we come to understand that we have to see things by each generation and be careful with comparisons.

 

Like it was with Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Button, Vettel, Rosberg, he just need THE car or a close second best car for us to see his real first championship campaign.


Edited by Boxerevo, 27 January 2020 - 04:12.


#5135 Kao18

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 18:11

We wont have to wait much longer...



#5136 lio007

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 19:16

We wont have to wait much longer...


What for?

#5137 Marklar

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 19:24

Recent Marko interview (in German), it's one hour long, so here a summary

-Development ahead of schedule, rollout on the 12th february
-Disagrees with Renault's take on the current order of the engines: he thinks Renault is only better on some high engine modes (like in Monza) and reliabilty counts too
-They plan with 3 engines for 2020
-He thinks with Ricciardo they would have probably finished 2nd in the WCC (later in the interview he said certainly)
-Ricciardo's departure was a shock, not only because he is a great driver but because he is a funny dude and there was a less fun buzz in the team without him
-He won two bets again Cyril and Ricciardo: against Cyrill that Toro Rosso will finish at least twice ahead of them, and against Ricciardo before Austria that they will have the engine with the better reliability
-Reckons that Gasly was strongly affected by the test crashes and by the fact that Max was simply quicker. He then tried to solve his deficit too much over set-up work/technique
-He is very happy about Albon's race performance, qualifying needs improvement. And he finds it curious that he did the worst on the tracks he knew the best. He thinks he can be closer this year.
-He says that Verstappen has - if everything goes normal - no exit clause (interviewer then asked if its about being top 3 in the WCC, he then replied that they have a contract with Honda till 2021 and that they need a "competitive engine")
-The extension of Max happened quite quickly after Honda extended for 2021 and they wanted full focus on 2020 and contiunity.
-Target is to become with Max the youngest WDC of all time
-In his opinion Max and Lewis are the outstanding drivers atm, Leclerc is getting there and he isnt writting off Vettel either if he has a certain car and support.
-It was clear to him that Max was special after that F3 race at the Norisring where he was 2s quicker than everyone else. At that point they were negotiating where Max would race in 2015, and after that he decided to put him into F1, which was a surprise for Jos.
-Max' biggest weakness at the beginning was his patience. He made a huge step in 2019 and he only showed glimpses of this in Monza/Spa. He doesnt count Mexico to this, that was more lacking diplomacy, which he will learn.
-He likes Max' straight forward attitude, and it also fits to the Red Bull brand, but for a championship fight you need to tone it down a bit, and he knows it.
-Mexico was a bit unfortunate, because his press officer didnt knew that he was under investigation, so he wasnt prepared for this question.
-He is happy about the measures the FIA took on the engine matter (though what happened with the Leclerc incident in Abu Dhabi was pretty BS)
-Reckons that the matter is settled with the new fuel flow sensor, but engineers are creative enough to find new solutions, so it might not be.
-Wasnt surprised about Leclerc's extension, but he doesnt think that Ferrari is his team yet, Vettel can still strike back if he has the car, but he needs to go out of his comfort zone and fight (politically), he is not sure if Vettel has the motivation for this
-Cant imagine Vettel at Red Bull now that they extended with Verstappen, especially financially (he first said because of the budget cap, but then is told that salaries dont count, then talks about how it would be better if it was)
-When he is asked about whether Verstappen is the most expensive Red Bull driver of all time, he said that the basic salary is relatively small but the bonusses are huge at Red Bull, and with that Max could indeed become the most expensive one
-Alonso is a no-go, because of Honda and because Red Bull's philosophy is to have their own young drivers.
-He thinks the F1 field will only converge in 2022/23 because initially the big teams will carry over their advantage. No matter what happens he praises Liberty for trying it.
-Doesnt think that they will have to fire too much staff (could move them to Red Bull Technology, etc.), but they will certainly have less agency workers
-Would prefer to ditch telemetry so that the driver matters more and that there is more unpredictability in terms of reliability. Would also save money.
-He changed his stance on the F1 Power Unit, things have changed in the society in the last years (in terms of environmentalism) and the engines are magnificent in this aspect marketing wise, but they failed to promote this properly
-He thinks Formula E is a great marketing platform, but F1 is a whole different level (was asked about whether he would advice Red Bull to race in FE)
-Confirms that they were talking with Volkswagen, but that was before the Dieselgate. Then everything changed.
-Confirms that Lauda promised him a Mercedes engine, but then was overruled.
-He doesnt think that a different prize money distribution will change things massively: in the end the quality and dynamic of the staff matters more
-About the next concorde agreement: no team has signed yet, there are some more points that need clarification, especially on the budget cap (how it's going to be policed, especially with Ferrari being a special case in the books)
-Next concorde agreement wont be as long as in the past, and if they dont have a engine it's a legit reason to leave (he was asked if signing a new agreement would mean that Red Bull stays for sure all the way)
-Thinks Mercedes with Hamilton are favourites, but they are well-prepared. To challenge they have to be competitive (not necessarly quickest) everywhere.
-He is glad that they keep the 2019 tyres and thinks they are understanding the tyres better now (cant guarantee it though). Also implies that Mercedes with their know-how and Hamilton with his experience have an advantage on understanding tyres in general.


Edited by Marklar, 29 January 2020 - 20:06.


#5138 Ivanhoe

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 19:29

Thanks for that Marklar. Good stuff, the man is definitely capable of saying some sensible things, no matter what you think of him.


Edited by Ivanhoe, 29 January 2020 - 19:30.


#5139 Kao18

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Posted 29 January 2020 - 21:07

What for?


To see Max' real first championship campaign.

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#5140 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 30 January 2020 - 07:26

Thank you for that excellent summary Marklar. Saves having to read countless badly translated articles over the next two weeks.

#5141 SenorSjon

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Posted 01 February 2020 - 18:30

F1 Today is milking this with a bit every day