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2019 Red Bull: Max Verstappen and friends vs the world. Oh, and there was Gasly too before Albon took over


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#3101 Marklar

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 17:35

When's this engine upgrade coming?

monza

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#3102 DerekWildstar

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 17:53

While I can’t say I’m surprised by the change, I do hope Gasly figures it out - I think he still has potential, but he was clearly outclassed by Max (although Max is a generational talent, so most other young drivers would probably pale in comparison to him). Hopefully he’ll be able to gather himself back at TR.

I’m interested to see what Albon can do with the RB 15 - if he has a rough entry, do they do another switch and get Kvyat from the bullpen in the later innings for the close of the season?

#3103 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 17:56

So now that Red Bull lost any shred of credibility regarding silly season denials. Whose to say Hulkenberg or Alonso aren't in the running for 2020?

 

Hulkenberg maybe.....



#3104 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 18:05

When's this engine upgrade coming?


Upgrade news round-up -

Marko said engine upgrade Monza, fuel upgrade Sochi.

From Autosport Japan, Google translated -


special edition magazine for Honda's first win since return - in an interview with Honda's engine boss, Asaki, weighing up pros and cons of preparing a special for Suzuka, which may mean running Monza upgraded engine harder for longer? I don't know if translation is accurate.

https://headlines.ya...503221-rcg-moto


Autosport Japan article / interview with ExxonMobil mentioned there's two fuel upgrades in development for this season, first one could come at Spa, then the other is targeted for Suzuka, Exxon motorsport boss calls it "Suzuka special" .

https://headlines.ya...508578-rcg-moto


Somebody on F1 technical in RBR team thread said Honda will bring a spec 5 upgrade later in the season.

It.motorsport.com before Germany said Red Bull had passed new crash test, so maybe a big update like Mercedes for second part of season?

#3105 garoidb

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 18:07

While I can’t say I’m surprised by the change, I do hope Gasly figures it out - I think he still has potential, but he was clearly outclassed by Max (although Max is a generational talent, so most other young drivers would probably pale in comparison to him). Hopefully he’ll be able to gather himself back at TR.

I’m interested to see what Albon can do with the RB 15 - if he has a rough entry, do they do another switch and get Kvyat from the bullpen in the later innings for the close of the season?

 

Is there a chance that they did this partially for Gasly's benefit, in that his confidence and future prospects are being destroyed. Finishing the season could have done him even more damage, whereas he can start to rebuild now. I don't even mean that he could ever get into a Red Bull again, but that he could show that he has come through it and get an opportunity somewhere else.  



#3106 Dan333SP

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 20:14

Hulkenberg maybe.....

 

Wouldn't it be funny if Hulk moves to RBR next year and comprehensively smashes Max after being regularly outperformed by DR this year?

 

I'm not saying it has any chance of happening, but it'd make everyone's heads explode.



#3107 Carrinthe

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 22:01

Man, I do hope Albon is not put in this situation too soon. I really think he has the talent (just like Russel, Norris and Leclerc)  to have a long and successful F1 career, but I'm afraid this is just too soon and it will hurt his career. On the upside, he seems to be levelheaded and mentally strong, he showed he can adept to a new situation seeing that he never drove a F1 car before February and is now the equal to a highly more experienced Kvyat. 

 

I like the guy and I'm really hoping he can make this a succes. 



#3108 Pits

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 22:57

I'm OK with this driver swap, nevertheless I feel bad for Gasly.

On the other hand, you can't say that Gasly was extremely happy when he was still driving for Red Bull, being slaughtered by Max is no fun.

So this is perhaps better for Gasly at this moment in his career, he might bounce back just as strongly as Kvyiat



#3109 Pits

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 23:09

Man, I do hope Albon is not put in this situation too soon. I really think he has the talent (just like Russel, Norris and Leclerc)  to have a long and successful F1 career, but I'm afraid this is just too soon and it will hurt his career. On the upside, he seems to be levelheaded and mentally strong, he showed he can adept to a new situation seeing that he never drove a F1 car before February and is now the equal to a highly more experienced Kvyat. 

 

I like the guy and I'm really hoping he can make this a succes. 

Albon was a big name back in the karting days, this guy was one of the best. 

I expect that he will do a lot better than Gasly, a good wingman for Verstappen hopefully

 

Funny to see this Albon interview back in 2010, he was 14 years old and dreaming of an RB f1 drive in the future.

The guy hasn't changes much since then, same quirky style...

 

 

https://youtu.be/rWKiKSgd8tA?t=73



#3110 Rodaknee

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 23:29

Gasly's got his comeuppance after being a nob to Harley last year.

#3111 SonGoku

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 00:14

I just feel Albon's mental state and pure talent is better than Gasly had to offer. Now that means still a beating from Max, but the occasional podium would be so much better than GAS.

#3112 Arundo

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 06:51

So now that Red Bull lost any shred of credibility regarding silly season denials. Whose to say Hulkenberg or Alonso aren't in the running for 2020?

 

No other team would say in the press they will swap drivers until its a done deal. I doubt Alonso, but maybe Hulkenberg. Would be nice to see him in a top team and he's fed up with Abiteboul's bullshit stories. 



#3113 Henri Greuter

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 07:04


To some extend, it makes sens to put Albon in the hotseat.

They know what he is capable off compared with Kyvat. There is previous knowledge about Kyvat at RedBull as well.
Gasly, once back at Toro Rosso can be compared with both Albon and Kyvat in Toros Rosso conditiona and with Albon in RedBull.

Even if Albon goes down, he still has the solid excuse of having even less experience that Gasly yet still can prove himself to be promising enough to continue with Toro Rosso.

It can indeed be mighty damaging, but very helpful for Marko&Co to eveluate their drivers.
I hope Albon will prove himself but at least will secure his future for another year or more with Toro Rosso. As some others do, I wonder what Hulkenberg could do at RedBull, but oh, how I miss Daniel...

#3114 itsgreen84

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 08:18

No other team would say in the press they will swap drivers until its a done deal. I doubt Alonso, but maybe Hulkenberg. Would be nice to see him in a top team and he's fed up with Abiteboul's bullshit stories. 

 

That and I am pretty sure there was a chance until last week he would continue to run. It doesn't help your driver if you place an asterisk next to his name.

 

In my opinion the thing that triggered this was the assurance that Max would stay with the team in 2020. If he had used his option they had to fill two seats and it is better then to keep Gasly where he is. And a lack of confidence doesn't help him get on top of it.



#3115 shure

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 17:52

To some extend, it makes sens to put Albon in the hotseat.

They know what he is capable off compared with Kyvat. There is previous knowledge about Kyvat at RedBull as well.
Gasly, once back at Toro Rosso can be compared with both Albon and Kyvat in Toros Rosso conditiona and with Albon in RedBull.

Even if Albon goes down, he still has the solid excuse of having even less experience that Gasly yet still can prove himself to be promising enough to continue with Toro Rosso.

It can indeed be mighty damaging, but very helpful for Marko&Co to eveluate their drivers.
I hope Albon will prove himself but at least will secure his future for another year or more with Toro Rosso. As some others do, I wonder what Hulkenberg could do at RedBull, but oh, how I miss Daniel...

If Gasly goes down, then he wasn't good enough.  I don't think excuses will cut it.

 

When Max was promoted he won on his very first Red Bull outing.  And when Hamilton entered F1 he missed out on the title in his debut season by a hair.    If Albon tanks - and I'm not suggesting he will, btw - then it will just mean he doesn't have the talent they hoped for.  The best drivers will rise to the occasion



#3116 Laptom

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 13:24

To some extend, it makes sens to put Albon in the hotseat.

They know what he is capable off compared with Kyvat. There is previous knowledge about Kyvat at RedBull as well.
Gasly, once back at Toro Rosso can be compared with both Albon and Kyvat in Toros Rosso conditiona and with Albon in RedBull.

Even if Albon goes down, he still has the solid excuse of having even less experience that Gasly yet still can prove himself to be promising enough to continue with Toro Rosso.

It can indeed be mighty damaging, but very helpful for Marko&Co to eveluate their drivers.
I hope Albon will prove himself but at least will secure his future for another year or more with Toro Rosso. As some others do, I wonder what Hulkenberg could do at RedBull, but oh, how I miss Daniel...


I think RB/Marko are doing this exactly. Just comparing DK, PG and Albon. If they all 3 are behind Max more that 0.3s at the end of the season, they can make Hulk an offer if he is still available.

#3117 Laptom

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 13:24

To some extend, it makes sens to put Albon in the hotseat.

They know what he is capable off compared with Kyvat. There is previous knowledge about Kyvat at RedBull as well.
Gasly, once back at Toro Rosso can be compared with both Albon and Kyvat in Toros Rosso conditiona and with Albon in RedBull.

Even if Albon goes down, he still has the solid excuse of having even less experience that Gasly yet still can prove himself to be promising enough to continue with Toro Rosso.

It can indeed be mighty damaging, but very helpful for Marko&Co to eveluate their drivers.
I hope Albon will prove himself but at least will secure his future for another year or more with Toro Rosso. As some others do, I wonder what Hulkenberg could do at RedBull, but oh, how I miss Daniel...


I think RB/Marko are doing this exactly. Just comparing DK, PG and Albon. If they all 3 are behind Max more that 0.3s at the end of the season, they can make Hulk an offer if he is still available.

#3118 Rodaknee

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 14:05

There have been questions about the quality of engineers that have been working with Gasly this year.  Daniel Ricciardo has said that losing his engineer was one of the reasons why he left RB last year. Going further back, Lewis Hamilton got very pissed off when his engineers were moved around.

 

 

"There were a lot of reasons, but losing Simon - I knew he wasn't going to engineer this year, if I stayed at Red Bull, and I thought I had a good relationship with him, and there were some unknowns," Ricciardo admitted during this year's Hungarian Grand Prix.

"I was certainly comfortable with him. If I knew he stayed, I don't know if that would've been the deciding factor, but it was another [thing] - obviously when you've got the Honda concern and a few others, I guess that was another little thing.

"As I said, there were lots of these little things which probably added up - I don't want to say 'concerns' but unknowns. 'Concerns' is probably a bit disrespectful."



#3119 shurajan

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 15:34

I think RB/Marko are doing this exactly. Just comparing DK, PG and Albon. If they all 3 are behind Max more that 0.3s at the end of the season, they can make Hulk an offer if he is still available.


What makes ppl thinking that some driver from outside can be as quick as toro rosso drivers? They never drove in one team with Kvyat, Albon or Gasly to make comparisson...

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#3120 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 16:37

There have been questions about the quality of engineers that have been working with Gasly this year. Daniel Ricciardo has said that losing his engineer was one of the reasons why he left RB last year. Going further back, Lewis Hamilton got very pissed off when his engineers were moved around.

With the ever increasing calendar, you'll end up with perhaps two engineering teams per driver.

#3121 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 17:47

What makes ppl thinking that some driver from outside can be as quick as toro rosso drivers? They never drove in one team with Kvyat, Albon or Gasly to make comparisson...

 

The Hulk is a proven upper-midfield F1 driver.  :)  I'm sure he would be reasonably close to Verstappen, just as he is reasonably close to Ricciardo.


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 14 August 2019 - 17:47.


#3122 Marklar

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 18:05

What makes ppl thinking that some driver from outside can be as quick as toro rosso drivers? They never drove in one team with Kvyat, Albon or Gasly to make comparisson...

Sainz and Ricciardo dominated Kvyat. Ricciardo was way closer to Max than Gasly is. The only one that is inconclusive due to his experience is Albon.

Of course there are other caveats such as the possibility that this Red Bull simply doesnt suit Gasly or that Kvyat has changed a lot in two years, but undoutly more points to it that *some* external solutions (e.g. Sainz, Perez, Hulk, Bottas) would do better than them.

#3123 Maxioos

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 18:50

I don't get this Hulkenberg logic. Okay, he's not bad. But he's losing from Ricciardo, who lost from Max. In the rate Ricciardo is dominating Hulkenberg in Q, Max would dominate Hulk in Q like he did Gasly. And he isn't "great". So i see no reason why a outside not bad driver would be attracted if have not bad inside team drivers and always new rookies who are willing to sail the boat (ready or not). Only "outside" driver i can see coming is Vettel. Otherwise they seem to follow their junior/connected drivers philosophy, for/during good and lesser times (as some think is now the case, i'm not).



#3124 Dan333SP

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 18:54

I don't get this Hulkenberg logic. Okay, he's not bad. But he's losing from Ricciardo, who lost from Max. In the rate Ricciardo is dominating Hulkenberg in Q, Max would dominate Hulk in Q like he did Gasly. And he isn't "great". So i see no reason why a outside not bad driver would be attracted if have not bad inside team drivers and always new rookies who are willing to sail the boat (ready or not). Only "outside" driver i can see coming is Vettel. Otherwise they seem to follow their junior/connected drivers philosophy, for/during good and lesser times (as some think is now the case, i'm not).

 

Agree 100%. It makes absolutely 0 sense to pay Hulkenberg a bunch of $ to get beaten by Max, albeit possibly by smaller margins than he was beating Gasly.



#3125 MKSixer

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 19:03

Agree 100%. It makes absolutely 0 sense to pay Hulkenberg a bunch of $ to get beaten by Max, albeit possibly by smaller margins than he was beating Gasly.

It would literally pay if it got them to P2 in the CC.  GAS has been ineffective in scoring points.  If he had the same half of or the same ratio of what BOT has achieved to HAM, RBR would be in or near P2/P2+ in the CC and we would be an entirely different conversation with regard to the RBR seat.  Unfortunately he hasn't.  He is at about 34% with respect to VER and this is entirely unacceptable.  

 

Cheers-mk



#3126 CharlesWinstone

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 19:07

The Hulk is a proven upper-midfield F1 driver. :) I'm sure he would be reasonably close to Verstappen, just as he is reasonably close to Ricciardo.


This comparison only works when the 3 mentioned drivers still drive on the same level as last or previous years. I am sure that is not the case.

#3127 DS27

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 19:33

If Hulk gets a drive at RB next year, I will reassess the decision I made years ago that Karma doesn't exist.



#3128 beachdrifter

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 22:47

I think RB/Marko are doing this exactly. Just comparing DK, PG and Albon. If they all 3 are behind Max more that 0.3s at the end of the season, they can make Hulk an offer if he is still available.

 

They should sign Hulk right away, ditch the weakest Red Bull/TR driver at the end of the season, and compete for both titles in earnest next season. Even if Max bolts after 2020, they'd still have at least Hulk in his prime and could add someone like Dan to continue with a very good lineup.


Edited by beachdrifter, 14 August 2019 - 22:47.


#3129 Jbleroi

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 22:58

They should sign Hulk right away, ditch the weakest Red Bull/TR driver at the end of the season, and compete for both titles in earnest next season. Even if Max bolts after 2020, they'd still have at least Hulk in his prime and could add someone like Dan to continue with a very good lineup.


Or bottas if he is being dumped by merc

#3130 Marklar

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 23:53

I don't get this Hulkenberg logic. Okay, he's not bad. But he's losing from Ricciardo, who lost from Max. In the rate Ricciardo is dominating Hulkenberg in Q, Max would dominate Hulk in Q like he did Gasly. And he isn't "great". So i see no reason why a outside not bad driver would be attracted if have not bad inside team drivers and always new rookies who are willing to sail the boat (ready or not). Only "outside" driver i can see coming is Vettel. Otherwise they seem to follow their junior/connected drivers philosophy, for/during good and lesser times (as some think is now the case, i'm not).

Not sure how that math works. Gasly is usually 8 tenths away, while Hulk is usually within a tenth of Ricciardo, who was usually within two tenths of Max. Let alone the fact that he is a much better racer than Gasly.

He would be a clear upgrade if we take Gasly's current season as a yardstick.

#3131 Nemo1965

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 10:26

Furthermore Hulk speaks excellent Dutch - including cussing. So funny to have two Red Bull drivers talking in Dutch - especially when it is colloquial.

#3132 Rodaknee

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 15:33

RB are never going to sign up Hulkenberg, unless...  it marks the departure of Marko.

 

I believe a modified Godwin's Law needs to be applied whenever Alonso is mentioned in relation to a vacant F1 seat.


Edited by Rodaknee, 15 August 2019 - 15:33.


#3133 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 16:30

 

Funny to see this Albon interview back in 2010, he was 14 years old and dreaming of an RB f1 drive in the future.

The guy hasn't changes much since then, same quirky style...

 

 

https://youtu.be/rWKiKSgd8tA?t=73

 

Albon sure is a marketeer's dream.  Cheeky chap!  :p

 

 

 

I don't get this Hulkenberg logic. Okay, he's not bad. 

 

It makes sense if Red Bull are looking for Mark Webber 2.0.  A solid backup driver. :)


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 August 2019 - 16:32.


#3134 beachdrifter

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 17:09

It makes sense if Red Bull are looking for Mark Webber 2.0.  A solid backup driver. :)

 

Could well be more, but we'll never know, I guess!



#3135 zanquis

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 09:28

The frustrating with RedBull their choice of when the pick their penalty, they say sochi is a fuel upgrade but I would not be surprised if they take another engine penalty there, after Sochi, we got Japan, Mexico, USA, Brasil these are 4 tracks that I think really could deliver results especially

#3136 Ivanhoe

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 09:34

The frustrating with RedBull their choice of when the pick their penalty, they say sochi is a fuel upgrade but I would not be surprised if they take another engine penalty there, after Sochi, we got Japan, Mexico, USA, Brasil these are 4 tracks that I think really could deliver results especially

However, Honda’s F1 technical director Toyoharu Tanabe said a decision had not been made prior to F1’s summer break.

“We are discussing all the time with the teams and we will decide when we apply a new engine or updated spec,” he told Motorsport.com.

“At the moment no decision has been made yet. It depends on the situation and timing and the result of the discussions with the teams. It’s very complicated.”

Singapore will almost certainly be prioritised given it represents a significant opportunity for Red Bull to take another win this season, but Honda’s home race in Japan is only the fifth race after the summer break.

That is firmly in Honda’s sights as the best opportunity for a strong result at Suzuka since it returned to F1 in 2015.

If Red Bull’s leading driver Max Verstappen takes a grid penalty at Spa or Monza and does not take another fresh engine before Suzuka, he will have to contest Honda’s home grand prix with a unit that is several races old.Honda believes its engines are now reliable enough to complete six full weekends without problem or significant degradation in performance.

However, it may not be willing to chance that at Suzuka, and a potential solution to that could be an engine change at the preceding race in Russia.

By sacrificing that grand prix, Honda could have a fresh engine ready for Suzuka, and likely have enough engines in the pool to complete the season without further changes or penalties.

Tanabe added: “We have two types of plan, long-term and short-term.

“After the race we review the situation, the condition of the PU, maybe two or three races is the short-term. And the long-term means until the end of the season.”

“It is very complicated.”


https://www.motorspo...rategy/4514851/

#3137 SenorSjon

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 10:45

I expect Monza and Russia for spec 4 and 5.

#3138 f1paul

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 11:09

That would be the smart choice too IMO.

 

But we don't have the data or know the condition of the current PU or how good the upgrade will be. 



#3139 Heyli

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 06:27

Some very nice words from Yamamoto on Max: https://www.autospor...-honda-f1-plans

 

Seems like the partnership has a very positive vibe from all sides. Even if Honda would be slightly worse in performance than Renault, I think that alone is already worth the switch. They can definitely move forwards together. 



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#3140 JBJ

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 07:30

So help me out here
Next engine change (spec 4?) means grid penalty?



#3141 Stephane

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 07:50

Yes, 



#3142 johnwilliamdavies

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Posted 26 August 2019 - 11:51

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#3143 Gary Davies

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 03:10

"Max Verstappen has praised Honda for how they have helped Red Bull within their first season of collaboration, claiming the Japanese power unit supplier runs with a "completely different mentality" to the team's former partner, Renault."

 

Link.

 

I wonder if and when the Renault bashing will ever end from Red Bull?  :rolleyes:



#3144 Reddington

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 03:43

I wonder if and when the Renault bashing will ever end from Red Bull? :rolleyes:

They have a few years left in my book. Renault over promised, under delivered and did nothing to solve things for 5 years in the hybrid era. Fact.

Next to that, Max is just comparing the two from personal experience. That’s not bashing, that’s informative. And yes sure: Max has a Honda preference, but it’s very easy to guess why...

But more importantly, Cyril was on a roll earlier this year in the winter, before testing and even during. There were quite a few arrows aimed at RB. So pot and kettles...
(Granted, he is very quiet now, but that might have its reasons, now doesn’t it?)

Who cares anyway.

Edited by Reddington, 27 August 2019 - 03:46.


#3145 Maxioos

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 04:56

"Max Verstappen has praised Honda for how they have helped Red Bull within their first season of collaboration, claiming the Japanese power unit supplier runs with a "completely different mentality" to the team's former partner, Renault."
 
Link.
 
I wonder if and when the Renault bashing will ever end from Red Bull?  :rolleyes:


How is that bashing?

#3146 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 05:42

I think it's just down to both sides having realistic expectations from the relationship which makes it easier to compromise on ego because you don't mistake it for compromising on performance. I think the Renault - Red Bull relationship turned toxic because no side was willing to admit that they had missed a step but were still doing really well in comparison to the other teams besides Merc in the last number of years. Part of that was probably down to Marko stirring the pot because he didn't want it to look like the driver program and B team were not worth the ROI in comparison to Merc considering all the drivers they had unceremoniously dumped.



#3147 Gary Davies

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 05:56

How is that bashing?

Well, it’s like this, see. It’s a matter of deciding to let go. Of moving on. Vertappen, Marko and Horner seemingly never pass up an opportunity to make derogatory comments about Renault. And this includes the years when they were winning championships with Renault.
Red Bull... I geddit, right. You don’t like Renault. Fine. Tedious, but fine. Would like to think about moving on and leaving your Renault era in the past.

#3148 Maxioos

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 06:18

Well, it’s like this, see. It’s a matter of deciding to let go. Of moving on. Vertappen, Marko and Horner seemingly never pass up an opportunity to make derogatory comments about Renault. And this includes the years when they were winning championships with Renault.
Red Bull... I geddit, right. You don’t like Renault. Fine. Tedious, but fine. Would like to think about moving on and leaving your Renault era in the past.



So, when asked questions, just not answering them? If asked if there are differences and what they are, you just don't tell because of Renault (fans) their feelings?

If he is staying proven lies it's different, bit he doesn't right? Just telling his view and experience isn't bashing.

#3149 Maxioos

Maxioos
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Posted 27 August 2019 - 06:19

I think it's just down to both sides having realistic expectations from the relationship which makes it easier to compromise on ego because you don't mistake it for compromising on performance. I think the Renault - Red Bull relationship turned toxic because no side was willing to admit that they had missed a step but were still doing really well in comparison to the other teams besides Merc in the last number of years. Part of that was probably down to Marko stirring the pot because he didn't want it to look like the driver program and B team were not worth the ROI in comparison to Merc considering all the drivers they had unceremoniously dumped.


You mean Wehrlein and Ocon?

#3150 Gary Davies

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 07:27

So, when asked questions, just not answering them? If asked if there are differences and what they are, you just don't tell because of Renault (fans) their feelings?

If he is staying proven lies it's different, bit he doesn't right? Just telling his view and experience isn't bashing.

When a forum participant has either a team's or driver's name as part of his or her username or features a driver or a team in his or her avatar, then I'm sorry to inform you that I place little value in their protestations. In your case, old chap, you're guilty on both counts.  :kiss:

 

Before you melt down, may I hasten to add that I consider Max to be an absolutely outstanding driver with the potential to become one of the all time greats. And Red Bull has shown itself to be one of the all time most proficient teams. What a silly chap Ron Dennis was all those years ago to allow Adrian Newey slip through his fingers.