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2019 Red Bull: Max Verstappen and friends vs the world. Oh, and there was Gasly too before Albon took over


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#3551 RPM40

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 22:02

As far as I'm aware, the best placed Red Bull finished more than 20 seconds behind the Renaults.

Very Gasly esq performance by Albon.

 

I hope Vettel rejoins RBR next year. That would be fun



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#3552 Prelude

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 22:15

As far as I'm aware, the best placed Red Bull finished more than 20 seconds behind the Renaults.

You need to increase your awareness :)



#3553 Reddington

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 02:12

As far as I'm aware, the best placed Red Bull finished more than 20 seconds behind the Renaults.


How did you do the rest of the season. And how will you do for the future races? I won’t have to hedge my bets!

#3554 HeadFirst

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 02:41

Lets give him a few races where he can genuinely be compared side by side with Max before condemning him.  From my perspective he was often in traffic and when he broke free was closing with Hulkenberg at nearly a second a lap.  More importantly unlike Gasly he has the ability to overtake and make up places.

 

Albon is not going to challenge Max, but why should we expect him to? From my perspective, I see a driver who comes to race. Seldom saw that with Gasly.



#3555 Requiem84

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 05:38

As far as I'm aware, the best placed Red Bull finished more than 20 seconds behind the Renaults.


You need to check the results again. And again. And again.

And then you need to think whether the following formula is true:

Race result = power unit performance.

And then you need to check the speed traps.

And then cone back here and tell us what you think :).

#3556 Bleu

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 05:58

Albon failed to set a time in qualifying as he was last car in the queue on the first run, so red flag became before his lap was completed. And obviously didn't have a similar chance as Bottas. Then second run was screwed for everyone.



#3557 JBJ

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 06:34

Don't feed the troll guys (Pedrowhatever)
Albon took a hit from Sainz which cost him a few places and got a 5 second time penalty

Got the impression that his overtake on Sainz (lap 3?) was more missing the braking point than a real overtake


Edited by JBJ, 09 September 2019 - 06:36.


#3558 Stephane

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 06:52

Yep, without the clash with Sainz, he'd probably have finished well in front of the Renaults.



#3559 flingsofdeon

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 06:55

Albon, all things considered was racing roughly in line with the cars performance - without off-track and 5 second penalty he probably would have been with Daniel at the end. Not bad given the slippery Renault.

Max just got caught out by the mad-slow driving at the first corner. Good avoidance and a solid race after that given the track layout.

Singapore it’ll most likely be back to the front for this car...

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#3560 SenorSjon

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 08:39

I do wonder though, where do these engine hiccups come from and why do they keep happening to Max?

 

is his driving style difficult for the Honda engine to work with?

Are the team mates also seeing it, but simply not so vocal?

Is Max more sensitive to engine hiccups?

Is it really a case of bad luck?

 

It seems the engine system responds to overreving when one tire goes into the air due to a kerb or bump. 

 

I've read a report that Verstappen was bouncing of the limiter on the straights, so had no chance to get Perez. Did they underestimate how fast the Honda could go? They have to fix the gear ratio's at the start of the season (as if that saves money...). With a longer 8th gear, he could have went faster.



#3561 v@sh

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 08:42

Albon, all things considered was racing roughly in line with the cars performance - without off-track and 5 second penalty he probably would have been with Daniel at the end. Not bad given the slippery Renault.

Max just got caught out by the mad-slow driving at the first corner. Good avoidance and a solid race after that given the track layout.

Singapore it’ll most likely be back to the front for this car...

 

Why would it be considered not bad to be racing with the Renaults?

 

The reason why Gasly was dropped in the first place was precisely that RBR did not want to be racing with the midfield runners given that the car is capable of wins at the right circuit and helping taking points off Ferrari so they can get closer in the constructors.

 

Yes Monza isn't the greatest circuit for RBR but they should still have the performance to beat the Renaults.

 

As for two races in, it may be too early to judge but regardless of which team you go to, all the fastest drivers are on it straight from the off. Hamilton when he was at Mclaren, Alonso at Minardi, Leclerc at Alfa/Ferrari, Verstappen/Ricciardo when they went to RBR just to name the main guys.

 

What the current qualifying/race gap tells me that Albon isn't going to be WDC material when compared to all those other guys. At best is if he does get better is that he'll be solid number 2 or if he keeps this up he'll be similar to Gasly in that the F1 world will see he is not top team material and therefore will be forever stuck in midfield teams or out of F1 eventually. He has at least till the end of the season to show that he is at least a solid number 2 otherwise the seat is gone.


Edited by v@sh, 09 September 2019 - 08:44.


#3562 SenorSjon

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 08:56

If Vettel should return, Albon has no chance to retain the seat and he will be fighting for the TR seat. No other RB junior is knocking at the door right now.


Edited by SenorSjon, 09 September 2019 - 08:57.


#3563 DrivenF1

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 08:58

Leclerc took 3-4 races to get on top of Ericsson so let’s not be too harsh on Albon vs. Verstappen mid-season

#3564 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 09:17

Vettel choking on Leclerc, fancies a go at Max in stead. Makes sense. Oh no, it doesnt :-)
Max made him look silly in a Toro Rosso. 



#3565 v@sh

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 09:21

Leclerc took 3-4 races to get on top of Ericsson so let’s not be too harsh on Albon vs. Verstappen mid-season

 

I have no problem with that but the difference is that Leclerc's inherent speed was already there early on and also out-qualifying Ericsson in China. It isn't just about race pace alone. I don't expect Albon to be straight straight on it after 2 races but I do not expect him to be this far back either because of Verstappen in the other car (similar expectations to Gasly at the start of the season).

 

When Ricciardo went to RBR, I expected him to take half a season to perhaps get up to speed with Vettel but he was pretty much there quite quickly. We can see the gaps once Albon has a few more races, however, if it stays the same as it currently is then I don't see how the current stint will do Albon's career any good.


Edited by v@sh, 09 September 2019 - 09:22.


#3566 Talisman

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 09:23

Why would it be considered not bad to be racing with the Renaults?

The reason why Gasly was dropped in the first place was precisely that RBR did not want to be racing with the midfield runners given that the car is capable of wins at the right circuit and helping taking points off Ferrari so they can get closer in the constructors.

Yes Monza isn't the greatest circuit for RBR but they should still have the performance to beat the Renaults.

As for two races in, it may be too early to judge but regardless of which team you go to, all the fastest drivers are on it straight from the off. Hamilton when he was at Mclaren, Alonso at Minardi, Leclerc at Alfa/Ferrari, Verstappen/Ricciardo when they went to RBR just to name the main guys.

What the current qualifying/race gap tells me that Albon isn't going to be WDC material when compared to all those other guys. At best is if he does get better is that he'll be solid number 2 or if he keeps this up he'll be similar to Gasly in that the F1 world will see he is not top team material and therefore will be forever stuck in midfield teams or out of F1 eventually. He has at least till the end of the season to show that he is at least a solid number 2 otherwise the seat is gone.


Hamilton had the most testing miles of any driver in history IIRC before he made his McLaren debut. Alonso had a good history of testing too.

Leclerc took a while before he started beating the megastar we know Ericsson to be at Alfa whilst Verstappen and especially Ricciardo had full seasons in STR and HRT before joining RBR.

Albon hasn’t had anything like the experience of any of the drivers you mention.

#3567 JeePee

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 09:23

Albon does look racy. Gasly never did (just a little bit in Silverstone).

 

It was a strange race for both drivers, but I expect Max to put Albon on a minute, if nothing strange happens, in Singapore.



#3568 flingsofdeon

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 11:06

Ricciardo, also joined the F1 grid mid-2011 and got into the RB in 2014. Alex joined the F1 grid at the last minute this winter, and has earned a promotion in the first half of the campaign.

He does look racy - having a go and making the occasional misjudgement is better than sitting back and not making any progress at all. There's clearly a lot of potential for anyone willing to look, from not just the last two races, but most of the season.

Plus, he sums up his races perfectly - no hyperbole, just measured analysis of what was good / what can be improved. That'll take him far, as he'll chip away on the elements that need to be worked upon.

He's an upgrade already on Pierre, that's clear.



#3569 Gambelli

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 12:37

Albon looks okay on one lap pace, certainly they should be strong in Singapore, if he can qualify within 0.3 of Max at Singapore he'll be doing well, it may mean losing several places on the grid asI have a feeling the front 3 teams will be very tight in Singapore, so Max to start front row in my opinion, but even 0.3 off I see putting Albon on row 3.

 

Anyway, thats all guesswork.  He needs to a) qualify within 0.3, b) be of some assistance to Max if Max is in a tight fight.  If he can do that, even if it just means being in a difficult pit window for one of Max's rivals, then he'll be considered success at this stage by the team I'd say....



#3570 zanquis

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 12:38

I do wonder though, where do these engine hiccups come from and why do they keep happening to Max?

is his driving style difficult for the Honda engine to work with?
Are the team mates also seeing it, but simply not so vocal?
Is Max more sensitive to engine hiccups?
Is it really a case of bad luck?


From what I guess, his feet are too fast, they probably are averaging out certain sensor inputs and ignoring spikes in the signal.

They once recorded the amount of throttle changes of top drivers like Senna and Schumacher during a corner and imho they are amazingly fast. (Massa had one of the fastest regarding steering input).

Some drivers can put their foot at the right spot and keep it but the top can dose their brakes and throttle close to ABS and traction control effects.

#3571 Heyli

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 12:41

From what I guess, his feet are too fast, they probably are averaging out certain sensor inputs and ignoring spikes in the signal.

They once recorded the amount of throttle changes of top drivers like Senna and Schumacher during a corner and imho they are amazingly fast. (Massa had one of the fastest regarding steering input).

Some drivers can put their foot at the right spot and keep it but the top can dose their brakes and throttle close to ABS and traction control effects.

So difficult to imagine, but I guess it makes sense if you are so close to the limit.

 

I´m always just happy if I can keep it on track in my race sims... :D 



#3572 Requiem84

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 12:42

I think Albon already looks stronger and more confident than Gasly after two races.

He’s been impressive given his experience.

#3573 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 13:20

I think Albon already looks stronger and more confident than Gasly after two races.

He’s been impressive given his experience.

I have to agree, he seems more natural, at least with this specific cars.

At the same time, Gasly back in the new to him STR is immediately on similar levels are Albon was after racing it for 12 weekend + testing. He looks more racey than in the RBR. Kvyat when demoted looked extremely capable (and ballsy) keeping Max at bay for longer than pretty much anyone else would have. 

Albon is dealing with it impressively, but the culprit seems to be more the RBR car/team than the level of the second driver. Perhaps they ruined a multi-race winner in Kvyat. In his 2015 form, he'd be shadowing Verstappen and ensuring a 2nd in the cosntructors' for RBR. Unless the car really is more of a handful that it should be. Shades of 1994 Benetton?  A weird twist of fate.



#3574 goldenboy

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 13:36

Ricciardo, also joined the F1 grid mid-2011 and got into the RB in 2014. Alex joined the F1 grid at the last minute this winter, and has earned a promotion in the first half of the campaign.

He does look racy - having a go and making the occasional misjudgement is better than sitting back and not making any progress at all. There's clearly a lot of potential for anyone willing to look, from not just the last two races, but most of the season.

Plus, he sums up his races perfectly - no hyperbole, just measured analysis of what was good / what can be improved. That'll take him far, as he'll chip away on the elements that need to be worked upon.

He's an upgrade already on Pierre, that's clear.

That's just crazy isn't it. Handling it exceptionally well for how fast this has all happened for him.

#3575 goldenboy

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 13:39

You need to check the results again. And again. And again.

And then you need to think whether the following formula is true:

Race result = power unit performance.

And then you need to check the speed traps.

And then cone back here and tell us what you think :).

Yeah, it's a bit embarrasing for this to have to be explained over and over again (on both sides of the engine feuding).

#3576 goldenboy

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 13:41

Why would it be considered not bad to be racing with the Renaults?

The reason why Gasly was dropped in the first place was precisely that RBR did not want to be racing with the midfield runners given that the car is capable of wins at the right circuit and helping taking points off Ferrari so they can get closer in the constructors.

Yes Monza isn't the greatest circuit for RBR but they should still have the performance to beat the Renaults.

As for two races in, it may be too early to judge but regardless of which team you go to, all the fastest drivers are on it straight from the off. Hamilton when he was at Mclaren, Alonso at Minardi, Leclerc at Alfa/Ferrari, Verstappen/Ricciardo when they went to RBR just to name the main guys.

What the current qualifying/race gap tells me that Albon isn't going to be WDC material when compared to all those other guys. At best is if he does get better is that he'll be solid number 2 or if he keeps this up he'll be similar to Gasly in that the F1 world will see he is not top team material and therefore will be forever stuck in midfield teams or out of F1 eventually. He has at least till the end of the season to show that he is at least a solid number 2 otherwise the seat is gone.

Sheesh that's a bit harsh on a rookie with a late call up.

#3577 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 14:44

Don't feed the troll guys (Pedrowhatever)
Albon took a hit from Sainz which cost him a few places and got a 5 second time penalty

Got the impression that his overtake on Sainz (lap 3?) was more missing the braking point than a real overtake


How Sainz wasn’t DSQ for that moronic move I’ll never know.

#3578 Talisman

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 15:01

How Sainz wasn’t DSQ for that moronic move I’ll never know.


For doing what Max did to leclerc in Austria? It would have been a travesty if Sainz had faced punishment for taking and sticking to the racing line while ahead of Albon.

#3579 Roadhouse

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 15:16

For doing what Max did to leclerc in Austria? It would have been a travesty if Sainz had faced punishment for taking and sticking to the racing line while ahead of Albon.

 

At first I thought Sainz was being overly harsh, but from a different view it was obvious Albon put himself in an incredibly vulnerable position. I mean, I'd go for that overtake when casually racing friends, not when racing a competitor.

On Albon's onboard it also looked like Sainz aggressively rammed him. but I assume Sainz's rear touched first, which made it look worse than it was.



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#3580 PedroDiCasttro

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 15:51

Since I've been accused of trolling, I must ask you this question:

 

Are you content with the last 2 results from the team at Spa and Monza, respectively?

 

I still hope RBR and Honda can find a way to win it next year, but I just can't see the current partnership gaining the advantage over Mercedes in such a short span of time.



#3581 Roadhouse

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 16:06

Since I've been accused of trolling, I must ask you this question:

 

Are you content with the last 2 results from the team at Spa and Monza, respectively?

 

I still hope RBR and Honda can find a way to win it next year, but I just can't see the current partnership gaining the advantage over Mercedes in such a short span of time.

 

Not content, but I think their pace was better than expected at both tracks.



#3582 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 16:11

RB said they wanted Honda to take more risks, err more on the side of power rather than reliability. The outcome is kind of predictable when they oblige.
A few problems with Max's unit recently, too bad it hit their top driver most. Unless he's just more heard publically and the others had it as well. I bet Honda will figure it out.



#3583 TomNokoe

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 16:11

Really strange for Max to have two anonymous races

#3584 Heyli

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 16:26

Since I've been accused of trolling, I must ask you this question:

 

Are you content with the last 2 results from the team at Spa and Monza, respectively?

 

I still hope RBR and Honda can find a way to win it next year, but I just can't see the current partnership gaining the advantage over Mercedes in such a short span of time.

Enginewise? Yeah, it looked pretty solid. 



#3585 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 17:00

 

Are you content with the last 2 results from the team at Spa and Monza, respectively?

 

No.

 

However, bear in mind, Verstappen had accidents in each race, which reduced his results significantly.

 

Albon went off the road at Lesmo in the race losing three places, after being unable to qualify -- itself a silly RBR tactical error.  He then lost 5 seconds for a penalty for an erroneous off track excurison against Sainz.  Albon may have been at least 5th otherwise -- not brilliant, but the Monza track does not have enough corners for the RBR chassis to gain time.

 

It's best to await a clean qualifying (and hopefully clean race) in Singapore to evaluate the gap between Verstappen and Albon, and to re-evaluate the relative performance of Red Bull Racing - Honda.


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 09 September 2019 - 17:01.


#3586 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 18:15

For doing what Max did to leclerc in Austria? It would have been a travesty if Sainz had faced punishment for taking and sticking to the racing line while ahead of Albon.


They were nowhere near similar. One was a 75 khp corner, the other a 160 kph corner with gravel on the outside. Back in the day, Sainz would’ve gotten a black eye for attempting that sort of BS.

#3587 Talisman

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 19:32

They were nowhere near similar. One was a 75 khp corner, the other a 160 kph corner with gravel on the outside. Back in the day, Sainz would’ve gotten a black eye for attempting that sort of BS.

 

Lol.

 

As with the Max vs Leclerc incident if the guy on the inside had been punished then all drivers have to do is hang it out on the outside, get pushed off and appeal the place.  It would kill racing dead.  That is why Max wasn't punished in Austria and why an investigation wasn't even opened in Monza against Sainz.  Not even Albon complained either at the time or after the race.

 

Show me the regulations that indicate that a driver has to concede to a car that is behind him while the driver is on the racing line.

 

Perhaps you should start a thread with a poll?


Edited by Talisman, 09 September 2019 - 19:35.


#3588 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 20:01

Lol.

 

As with the Max vs Leclerc incident if the guy on the inside had been punished then all drivers have to do is hang it out on the outside, get pushed off and appeal the place.  It would kill racing dead.  That is why Max wasn't punished in Austria and why an investigation wasn't even opened in Monza against Sainz.  Not even Albon complained either at the time or after the race.

 

Show me the regulations that indicate that a driver has to concede to a car that is behind him while the driver is on the racing line.

 

Perhaps you should start a thread with a poll?

hanging on around the outside is very, very difficult...



#3589 Beamer

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 11:07

7 days without any bickering in this thread... that must be a record!

Sure miss the max vs ric era...

#3590 Ali623

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 12:07

Really strange for Max to have two anonymous races

 

 

I'd say less anonymous and more messy, considering how consistent he's been in the past year, to making two fairly rookie errors ruining his past two races. Probably just coincidence, be interesting to see how he performs this weekend though, should be a track that suits the car. 



#3591 Requiem84

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 12:32

I would be disappointed if RB does not get a front row start in Singapore. 

 

The PU is now really getting there. The car has been more or less a match to Mercedes on tighter tracks. And Verstappen went pretty well most years in Singapore. 

 

They should fight for victory (imo) in Singapore, Japan, Mexico, Brasil.

 

Sochi never really suited them somehow, nor did Abu Dhabi. 



#3592 SenorSjon

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 12:54

They should have no engine mapping gremlins anymore.



#3593 Requiem84

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 12:58

And good starts.  :clap:



#3594 Prelude

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 14:06

I would be disappointed if RB does not get a front row start in Singapore. 

 

The PU is now really getting there. The car has been more or less a match to Mercedes on tighter tracks. And Verstappen went pretty well most years in Singapore. 

 

They should fight for victory (imo) in Singapore, Japan, Mexico, Brasil.

 

Sochi never really suited them somehow, nor did Abu Dhabi. 

RBH will be fast everywhere now. They were fast even in Monza. Of course Sochi race will be sacrificed to have a new spec (5) PU.



#3595 A3

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 18:20

Remember this gem from 2 years ago? :lol:

KhGtuyD.png

#3596 Cliff

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 19:09

Remember this gem from 2 years ago? :lol:

KhGtuyD.png


That was Iraqi defence minister lvl funny...

#3597 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 20:21

RBH will be fast everywhere now.

 

 

:clap:

 

Wonderful stuff, Red Bull sure are an ace team doing a great job.  :up:

 

Any big upgrades in the pipeline for RB15?  :confused:



#3598 Thatfastguy

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 20:43

Remember this gem from 2 years ago? :lol:

KhGtuyD.png

Haha gold! Thanks ferrari.

#3599 Prelude

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 21:09

:clap:

 

Wonderful stuff, Red Bull sure are an ace team doing a great job.  :up:

 

Any big upgrades in the pipeline for RB15?  :confused:

I didn't read anything regarding chassis upgrades, but I hope they bring some more this season.

 

And fix those damn starts please......



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#3600 goldenboy

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 13:16

Remember this gem from 2 years ago? :lol:

KhGtuyD.png

Jesus how moronic of them.