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2019 Red Bull: Max Verstappen and friends vs the world. Oh, and there was Gasly too before Albon took over


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#3701 Jbleroi

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 15:17

And Gasly is doing a better job in TR than Albon did  :wave:


That is Of little importance, who drives better in the RB is what counts.. Gas has 1 year more experience.. albon had a good race today... lets see after mexico

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#3702 anyeis

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 15:21

Maybe he is slightly faster than Gasly but still closer to Gasly than Verstappen. It takes a massive step for him to go beyond P6 in a normal race



#3703 Jbleroi

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 15:27

Singapore is not a normal race... always action but overtaking seems to be difficult when on the same strategy.. albon did today what he had to do

#3704 Sunnny

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 15:29

That is Of little importance, who drives better in the RB is what counts.. Gas has 1 year more experience.. albon had a good race today... lets see after mexico

 

The point is Albon is not better job than Gasly. Atleast we saw Gasly ovetake Vettel - Albon has not come remotely close to being anywhere near any of the top teams. Oh I see you count being close to Bottas due to the SC as him being better  :lol:



#3705 A3

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 15:42

Well they kinda gave p3 away lol


I think you’ll agree that they would have acted differently had they been leading the race.

#3706 Danyy

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 16:09

I think you’ll agree that they would have acted differently had they been leading the race.


Yeah I’m glad they were not, I think they had the pace to cover an undercut in free air

#3707 Ivanhoe

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 16:15

I think you’ll agree that they would have acted differently had they been leading the race.


Bottas would have won then probably ;-)

#3708 SenorSjon

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 16:27

This race was decided by tire saving and 3 SC's on a row. A bit like Monaco. I dohbt Albon would have kept up in a Hungary situation.

#3709 JBJ

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 16:27

The point is Albon is not better job than Gasly. Atleast we saw Gasly ovetake Vettel - Albon has not come remotely close to being anywhere near any of the top teams. Oh I see you count being close to Bottas due to the SC as him being better  :lol:

If only Gasly raced like today the first half of the year

Anyway, still not convinced with Albon, they we're cruising first half of the race and he could keep up with Bottas
lost a lot of ground towards the end when the laptimes went down



#3710 Nemo1965

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 16:30

Max and Dan going at it again, seems even the Sky crew misses the banter between the 2.
https://streamable.com/vj9zq

Funny that I watched Max's onboard today and when his engineers talks about other cars around him he's always like, "Bottas is on a fast one, then it's LecLerc and behind him is Daniel." Habits die hard. Max mentions this to Daniel too.


This...was the most enjoyable video about F1 I have seen this year... watch how Ricciardo keeps reaching out to touch Max’ shoulder... amazing that these superego’s (as they must be) feel so relaxed with each other...

#3711 johnwilliamdavies

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 17:02

If only Gasly raced like today the first half of the year

Anyway, still not convinced with Albon, they we're cruising first half of the race and he could keep up with Bottas
lost a lot of ground towards the end when the laptimes went down

Albon said on Sky that towards the end of the race he was managing an issue, which slowed him down. Probably something with the engine. 



#3712 Danyy

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 17:08

Albon said on Sky that towards the end of the race he was managing an issue, which slowed him down. Probably something with the engine.


Why do you assume it’s the engine? Could have easily been brakes

#3713 HeadFirst

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 03:40

Why do you assume it’s the engine? Could have easily been brakes

 

Or tires, or perhaps an incursion by a plastic bag like Mags had.



#3714 jacdaniel

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 07:59

I imagine it’s quite frustrating for Max. For awhile before the summer break, it looked like he’d be capable of challenging for wins at all tracks.
Fair enough, what happened at Spa can happen in F1.
The grid penalty in Monza really hurt.
More than the above, Red Bull expected to challenge in Singapore but were fairly fortunate in the end to get a podium.

With the improved Ferrari, Max might end up 5th in the WDC, which is of course no shame considering the cars.

Unfortunately Red Bull are still not in a position to consistently challenge for wins.

#3715 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 08:04

I think Jos' comments regarding beyond 2020 recently were telling. I mean that's normal seeing what your options are of course but perhaps they're getting a little concerned now that Max is in the wrong place.

The pressure will really be on Red Bull next season to deliver the car needed.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 23 September 2019 - 08:07.


#3716 Ivanhoe

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 08:06

I think Jos' comments regarding beyond 2020 recently were telling. I mean that's normal seeing what your options are of course but perhaps they're getting a little concerned now that Red Bull may not be the place.
The pressure will really be on Red Bull next season to deliver the car needed.

Question is if there will be any viable options for Max besides Red Bull.

#3717 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 08:10

Question is if there will be any viable options for Max besides Red Bull.

There has to be. Though my thinking is the later you leave it, the more critical it gets. Personally I want him in a Mercedes or Ferrari. He deserves a proper race winning car, it's just been a while since Red Bull have delivered that.

#3718 shure

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 08:13

I think Jos' comments regarding beyond 2020 recently were telling. I mean that's normal seeing what your options are of course but perhaps they're getting a little concerned now that Max is in the wrong place.

The pressure will really be on Red Bull next season to deliver the car needed.

If that's true then they seem to be a bit fickle.  It wasn't too long ago that they were confident that RBH were a future winner, now all of a sudden they don't have what it takes?



#3719 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 08:16

If that's true then they seem to be a bit fickle. It wasn't too long ago that they were confident that RBH were a future winner, now all of a sudden they don't have what it takes?

So at what point do they know that? How long do you leave it? Let's face it, 2021 isn't far off. Would they be already sounding out Ferrari and Mercedes now, in case Red Bull plateau next season and can't compete for the WDC? It's a tough one.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 23 September 2019 - 08:17.


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#3720 Marklar

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 08:21

If that's true then they seem to be a bit fickle. It wasn't too long ago that they were confident that RBH were a future winner, now all of a sudden they don't have what it takes?

Jos changes his stance to whatever it suits him rn. When Red Bull was on the backfoot he was flirting with options for 2020, when they were winning two races he was dreaming of Max achieving Senna Status in Japan, and now he states options beyond 2020.

Im not sure if there even will be options. Binotto made it clear that Ferrari is locked for him and Mercedes has Hamilton (and may build up Russell). And if Mercedes is really starting to fade he has no reason to go there either.

Edited by Marklar, 23 September 2019 - 08:23.


#3721 shure

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 08:22

So at what point do they know that? How long do you leave it? Let's face it, 2021 isn't far off. Would they be already sounding out Ferrari and Mercedes now, in case Red Bull plateau next season and can't compete for the WDC? It's a tough one.

Red Bull are arguably the most improved team and that with a new PU to work with.  They had relatively low hopes for this year initially but until yesterday Max was 3rd in the WDC.  And Honda are still learning and improving so I'm not sure I see the great cause for concern just yet



#3722 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 08:40

Red Bull are arguably the most improved team and that with a new PU to work with. They had relatively low hopes for this year initially but until yesterday Max was 3rd in the WDC. And Honda are still learning and improving so I'm not sure I see the great cause for concern just yet

Fair enough. Clock is ticking.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 23 September 2019 - 08:42.


#3723 Requiem84

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 08:44

Red Bull are arguably the most improved team and that with a new PU to work with.  They had relatively low hopes for this year initially but until yesterday Max was 3rd in the WDC.  And Honda are still learning and improving so I'm not sure I see the great cause for concern just yet

 

The shocker of yesterday was that RB went backwards on a track where they should normally be much stronger than on previous tracks like Monza and Spa.

 

Actually, Verstappen said that the RB package was slower this GP compared to Monza and Spa. So, the chassis isn't actually as strong as they thought it would be on a high df track. You'd expect RB to keep the upward momentum they had since Austria. 

 

The main question is now whether it was a one off fluke, or whether they took a wrong turn in the aero development. 



#3724 Claudius

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 08:51

The jury seems to still be out on Albon. 

I like his wheel to wheel aggression but he is still behind in qualy comparing to Max. And in the races it's not been possible to compare his racecraft to Max yet.

I'm hoping for him to do well.



#3725 Requiem84

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 09:05

Albon at least looks on par with Gasly, which is impressive given his lack of time in the car. Gasly really was at sea in Hungary.

 

Can he make inroads and improve? Hard to say yet. Let's give him some more races to see if he get's within 0,3 in qualifying.

 

Main question is: why is Gasly suddenly doing decent again in the TR? 

 

Is that car actually better than we think and would Max get that car to the front of the midfield?

Is the car easier to drive than the RB?

Is Gasly improving?

Does Gasly perform better without the RB pressure?



#3726 Goron3

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 09:07

The shocker of yesterday was that RB went backwards on a track where they should normally be much stronger than on previous tracks like Monza and Spa.

 

Actually, Verstappen said that the RB package was slower this GP compared to Monza and Spa. So, the chassis isn't actually as strong as they thought it would be on a high df track. You'd expect RB to keep the upward momentum they had since Austria. 

 

The main question is now whether it was a one off fluke, or whether they took a wrong turn in the aero development. 

According to Mark Hughes, their sim work led to them underestimating the bumps and they ended up going down the wrong suspension path. That won't be a problem going forward as most circuits left on the calendar are quite smooth.

 

https://www.motorspo...tanding-leclerc



#3727 Talisman

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 09:15

The problem with Ferrari for Max is the games they play. Leclerc was clearly given a raw deal by his team yesterday and back in Canada he raced to the end not being informed of his teammate’s penalty which would have affected his own approach to the race. No matter who his teammate would be Max would not be treated like he is at RBR. I think he knows that.

#3728 Requiem84

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 09:38

According to Mark Hughes, their sim work led to them underestimating the bumps and they ended up going down the wrong suspension path. That won't be a problem going forward as most circuits left on the calendar are quite smooth.

 

https://www.motorspo...tanding-leclerc

 

I read that story, which was already reported in Amus. 

 

I just don't buy it. 



#3729 robefc

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 09:49

The shocker of yesterday was that RB went backwards on a track where they should normally be much stronger than on previous tracks like Monza and Spa.

 

Actually, Verstappen said that the RB package was slower this GP compared to Monza and Spa. So, the chassis isn't actually as strong as they thought it would be on a high df track. You'd expect RB to keep the upward momentum they had since Austria. 

 

The main question is now whether it was a one off fluke, or whether they took a wrong turn in the aero development. 

 

 

I wouldn't be too quick to extrapolate that to high down force tracks in general, Singapore seems to throw up weird results and so do these tyres.

 

Also depends on what one means by a high downforce track because I always think of tracks like barcelona - where downforce counts in the fast corners - but obviously the tracks where cars run really high downforce are ones likes Singapore, Monaco and Hungary, are there any others like that left?



#3730 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 09:55

Albon at least looks on par with Gasly, which is impressive given his lack of time in the car. Gasly really was at sea in Hungary.

 

Can he make inroads and improve? Hard to say yet. Let's give him some more races to see if he get's within 0,3 in qualifying.

 

Main question is: why is Gasly suddenly doing decent again in the TR?  - He is no longer teamed against Verstappen.

 

Is that car actually better than we think and would Max get that car to the front of the midfield? - Verstappen can take any car on the grid and make it look better than it's current drievr except for Hamilton in Mercedes.

Is the car easier to drive than the RB? - Most likely not.

Is Gasly improving? - No what we see is who he is, anyone at Red Bull with Verstappen except Hamilton will be dominated by Verstappen.

Does Gasly perform better without the RB pressure? - No what we see is who he is, anyone at Red Bull with Verstappen except Hamilton will be dominated by Verstappen.

 

Liking him or not liking him, Verstappen is one of those talents where even highly talented drivers will look not quite as good teamed up with him.

 

Gasly, Albon, Kvyat or whoemever else in the Red Bull pipeline they place in the Red Bull seat will perform more or less as Gasly and Albon did and are doing, I do think Gasly struggled in confidence when he found how he suddenly was not even close to a team mate, not sure how much that has ever been part of his season long experience before.

 

Albon is doing exactly what we should expect him to do,

 

:cool:



#3731 Danyy

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 10:13

I think some people are over reacting after one average race. Let’s see what happens in Sochi. Btw Albon is not performing like Gasly after the same amount of races, he’s performing much better and he’s still getting better.

#3732 Viryfan

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 10:42

I think some people are over reacting after one average race. Let’s see what happens in Sochi. Btw Albon is not performing like Gasly after the same amount of races, he’s performing much better and he’s still getting better.


So ending up behind Norris at Spa and only 8 seconds ahead of Kvyat is better than what Gasly did?

Also ending up behind both Renault at Monza and most likely behind Sainz/Kvyat is much better than Gasly?

Sorry but this is rather rich.

 

Albon has better racecraft than Gasly and he is willing to send it in the inside.

 

But saying that he has much better pace than Gasly is a farce.


Edited by Viryfan, 23 September 2019 - 10:49.


#3733 JBJ

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 10:47

So ending up behind Norris at Spa and only 8 seconds ahead of Kvyat is better than what Gasly did?

Also ending up behind both Renault at Monza and most likely behind Sainz is much better than Gasly?

Sorry but this is rather rich.

Spa was his first race
Gasly's second race (Bahrain) he ended up 2 places behind Norris 


Edited by JBJ, 23 September 2019 - 10:57.


#3734 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 10:56

This season feels so much like Benetton's 1994, just the VER sign is on the other side of the garage.

 

It's very possible Gasly and Albon drivers are just average and coping slightly differenly with this fact. We know for a fact that Ricciardo isn't, he's measured up so well against others. His Kvyat year+ somewhat of an outlier due to mechanicals.
Max's speed and capabilities are no longer questioned or downplayed by anyone. Just a few are saying that RB built a team around his, which would be impressive so shortly after RIC was his full equal for in-team status and able to convincingly win some races.


 



#3735 Danyy

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 10:58

Spa was his first race
Gasly's second race (Bahrain) he ended up 2 places behind Norris


He also had an engine penalty at Spa

#3736 Viryfan

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:02

Spa was his first race
Gasly's second race (Bahrain) he ended up 2 places behind Norris 

 

Still, you can't say that Albon is an instant improvement on Gasly regarding sheer pace.



#3737 Heyli

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:07

Still, you can't say that Albon is an instant improvement on Gasly regarding sheer pace.

I agree with this. Gasly was also very unlucky in his first race with RB screwing up his qualifying by keeping him in.

 

I do think Albon seemed to be a bit more decisive with the overtakes so far, but I dont think we can state that Albon is faster and a big improvement with that much certainty. Let´s see how it goes in the next races.



#3738 Requiem84

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:07

I wouldn't be too quick to extrapolate that to high down force tracks in general, Singapore seems to throw up weird results and so do these tyres.

 

Also depends on what one means by a high downforce track because I always think of tracks like barcelona - where downforce counts in the fast corners - but obviously the tracks where cars run really high downforce are ones likes Singapore, Monaco and Hungary, are there any others like that left?

 

RB have been in top 3 qualifying in Singapore for the last 10 years (according to Dutch commentator, didn't check). So they have a history of their chassis doing very well here, even in years they were struggling. 

 

So in that sense it is telling that this year they were pretty far of pole position imo.



#3739 Danyy

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:09

Still, you can't say that Albon is an instant improvement on Gasly regarding sheer pace.


Well considering Gasly was 1 second down on Max in his third race and Albon is 6 tenths, that is exactly what you can say about Albon.

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#3740 Viryfan

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:10

Well considering Gasly was 1 second down on Max in his third race and Albon is 6 tenths, that is exactly what you can say about Albon.

 

And Gasly was one tenth behind Verstappen in Melbourne in Q1.

 

And Gasly was four tenths behind in Bahrain.

 

So no this is not true.

 

Getting closer to a teammate is not a warranty as time goes by.


Edited by Viryfan, 23 September 2019 - 11:16.


#3741 Requiem84

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:17

And Gasly was one tenth behind Verstappen in Melbourne in Q1.

 

And Gasly was four tenths behind in Bahrain.

 

So no this is not true.

 

But he was a lap behind in Hungary and 0,8 or 0,9. 

 

This really hurt him, as the car finally was getting better and better. You'd expect  Gasly to built up his speed and confidence during the season and slowly chip away at the deficit. Instead, he remained very inconsistent and potentially cost RB the race win in Hungary. 

 

Hungary was what axed him. 



#3742 Danyy

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:18

And Gasly was one tenth behind Verstappen in Melbourne in Q1.
 
And Gasly was four tenths behind in Bahrain.
 
So no this is not true.


And then from Bahrain (a track he’s normally good at) he went to being a second down in Shanghai so he went backwards.

#3743 Viryfan

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:19

And then from Bahrain (a track he’s normally good at) he went to being a second down in Shanghai so he went backwards.

 

But you do not have any proof it will get better for Albon....



#3744 JBJ

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:20

And Gasly was one tenth behind Verstappen in Melbourne in Q1.

 

And Gasly was four tenths behind in Bahrain.

 

So no this is not true.

 

Getting closer to a teammate is not a warranty as time goes by.

I think we can agree that Gasly had his chance this year and he didn't do enough to keep his seat at RB ?



#3745 Danyy

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:21

But you do not have any proof it will get better for Albon....


I don’t have a time machine, no.

#3746 Viryfan

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:21

I think we can agree that Gasly had his chance this year and he didn't do enough to keep his seat at RB ?

 

Yes, but Albon is not an instant improvement.

 

Red Bull should either shake up the box of the car next to Verstappen if they are to keep Albon or swallow their pride and hire Hulkenberg.

 

Crude reality is that Gasly was fired in order to help chances of Red Bull in order to save chances to be P2 in WCC, so Albon is not meeting that target.

 

Things are pretty straightforward at that stage.

 

Either swallow your pride or really work on the engineering team of your second car.


Edited by Viryfan, 23 September 2019 - 11:24.


#3747 JBJ

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:28

Yes, but Albon is not an instant improvement.

 

Red Bull should either shake up the box of the car next to Verstappen if they are to keep Albon or swallow their pride and hire Hulkenberg.

 

Crude reality is that Gasly was fired in order to help chances of Red Bull in order to save chances to be P2 in WCC, so Albon is not meeting that target.

He did a bit better finishing top 6 so far.
Don't think they expected more from Albon the first 3 races, but they will continue to monitor if he's improving

what do you mean with "shake up the box?"



#3748 Viryfan

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:31

He did a bit better finishing top 6 so far.
Don't think they expected more from Albon the first 3 races, but they will continue to monitor if he's improving

what do you mean with "shake up the box?"

 

Fire the race engineer of the car 23 or send him back to STR in order to learn his craft.

 

Bring a race engineer from STR who has F1 experience.

 

The current race engineer of the car 23 is an F1 complete rookie who had only junior formula and Formula E experience.

 

https://www.linkedin...nalSubdomain=uk

 

It is a known fact that the engineering team of that side of the box is less experienced.

 

 

There were a lot of reasons, but losing Simon - I knew he wasn't going to engineer this year, if I stayed at Red Bull, and I thought I had a good relationship with him, and there were some unknowns,” Ricciardo said.

"I was certainly comfortable with him. If I knew he stayed, I don't know if that would've been the deciding factor

 

https://www.express....Renault-F1-news


Edited by Viryfan, 23 September 2019 - 11:35.


#3749 Danyy

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:34

But you do not have any proof it will get better for Albon....


Do you have any proof it won’t?

#3750 Lights

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 11:36

Jos changes his stance to whatever it suits him rn. When Red Bull was on the backfoot he was flirting with options for 2020, when they were winning two races he was dreaming of Max achieving Senna Status in Japan, and now he states options beyond 2020.

Aren't you describing pretty much everyone in F1? It's a fast sport in that sense and you have to always reassses your options. I can't really blame Jos for being sceptical when Red Bull keeps going a step back after they put a step forward. And the flirting is very normal too, especially for a guy like Max who has been undisputed hot property for the last year.