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2019 Red Bull: Max Verstappen and friends vs the world. Oh, and there was Gasly too before Albon took over


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#4151 gillesfan76

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 16:36

Same as Hamilton did in Silverstone 2018?


No idea what Hamilton did or didn’t do in Silverstone, and even less idea what Hamilton, Silverstone and 2018 have to do with Max appreciating some hard racing and Charles obliging?

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#4152 Requiem84

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 16:50

No idea what Hamilton did or didn’t do in Silverstone, and even less idea what Hamilton, Silverstone and 2018 have to do with Max appreciating some hard racing and Charles obliging?


Perhaps you should rewatch the start of that race...

It merely shows that sometimes you just get ounted of whether you are in a championship fight and ‘taking it safely’ or not.

#4153 gillesfan76

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:07

He basically left him about 3 car widths of space.

 

I don’t think so https://www.formula1..._collision.html
@ 0:27
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=3Orp6T8uU2k
@ 0:26

About two car’s width left on the inside. Fully agree that Max did nothing wrong. Actually reminded me a lot of Austria this year where funnily enough it was Max who ran Charles off in a similar situation. Lucky though that time they banged wheels so no huge damage. When drivers are racing hard at high speeds, this kind of thing happens. Charles obviously did not intend to hit Max, just understeered off. Being on the outside is a precarious place to be which is why it’s also lauded as ballsy when drivers do pull off an overtake around the outside. But if Austria was hard racing and not penalty worthy, I don’t see Suzuka any differently. But we all know that the FIA treat actions differently based on outcome.

 

Perhaps you should rewatch the start of that race...
It merely shows that sometimes you just get ounted of whether you are in a championship fight and ‘taking it safely’ or not.


Fully agree with you.

#4154 JBJ

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 17:47

Finally an incident involving Max where the majority doesn't feel he's to blame
I call this progress



#4155 Ivanhoe

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 19:25

I don’t think so https://www.formula1..._collision.html
@ 0:27https://m.youtube.co...h?v=3Orp6T8uU2k
@ 0:26
About two car’s width left on the inside. Fully agree that Max did nothing wrong. Actually reminded me a lot of Austria this year where funnily enough it was Max who ran Charles off in a similar situation. Lucky though that time they banged wheels so no huge damage. When drivers are racing hard at high speeds, this kind of thing happens. Charles obviously did not intend to hit Max, just understeered off. Being on the outside is a precarious place to be which is why it’s also lauded as ballsy when drivers do pull off an overtake around the outside. But if Austria was hard racing and not penalty worthy, I don’t see Suzuka any differently. But we all know that the FIA treat actions differently based on outcome.


Fully agree with you.

Losing control of your car is now called hard racing? Max was in total control of his car in Austria and they just banged wheels without any damage. Leclerc lost control of his car, rammed Verstappen off track who had to retire because of the damage of his car. See the difference? Said it before, Leclerc tried to race hard but f#cked up.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 13 October 2019 - 19:45.


#4156 beachdrifter

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 20:16

Since Belgium, Albon has scored 48 PTS. Max 31 PTS.

 

Who would have bet on that? 

 

As I thought, he'd easily look better than Gasly. But Red Bull's lack of form has been a surprise.


Edited by beachdrifter, 13 October 2019 - 20:33.


#4157 beachdrifter

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 20:26

Did Albon get a penalty btw. for his move on the (I think it was a) McLaren? 


Edited by beachdrifter, 13 October 2019 - 20:27.


#4158 Risil

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 22:43

I've removed some posts. Let's do something more constructive with our time than revelling in drivers' misfortunes.

#4159 ANF

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 22:55

Did Albon get a penalty btw. for his move on the (I think it was a) McLaren?

No, "no further action", I believe. Norris said he didn't see Albon until he was alongside. Which explains why he turned into the side of the Red Bull as he was overtaken. https://streamable.com/ioho1

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#4160 beachdrifter

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 00:37

No, "no further action", I believe. 

 

I noticed there is a thread on that: 

 

https://forums.autos...nt-suzuka-2019/



#4161 TF110

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 01:49

Mexico up next. RB usually strong there, but with Ferrari's engine and low-drag, I think they'll be really strong there again. Then again, who knows because the thin air might help Merc out more with their higher downforce. Lets see but I'm hopeful a top-3 in qualifying is on and with a good race maybe a win.



#4162 Kao18

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 08:00

As I thought, he'd easily look better than Gasly. But Red Bull's lack of form has been a surprise.


We have to wait and see for that. Albon has profited from Max retirements and penalties. Something Gasly never could. Also while Gasly was perhaps to passive with overtaking attempts Albon is still rough around the edges with some of his.

Qualifying was good but it remains to be seen if it was a one off or something permanent.

For me the jury is still out on this one. I would like to see a bit more race pace comparisons.

#4163 Marklar

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 08:27

I do think that Albon is definitely a upgrade over Gasly (ironically Gasly seems to be one at Toro Rosso too lmao)

He has a weaker car than Gasly had and is scoring better results. His race pace at times is good (needs to be more consistent from the get go). He is very race-y, which could of course backfire (like it almost did yesterday). Something that Gasly lacked entirely. Qualifying has been his weak point, so Suzuka is a great indicator, but he has to show this consistently. Whether this all will be enough to be a solid number 2? We'll see.

I do wonder if a summer break + Max having two so-so races right after this would have helped Gasly to gain some confidence though. Assuming his issues was really only general confidence rather than specifically the car.

Edited by Marklar, 14 October 2019 - 08:28.


#4164 Kao18

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 09:08

He has a weaker car than Gasly had and is scoring better results.

Personally as far as Albons performance goes I believe that is both a blessing and a curse. The car is not weaker compared to the teams directly behind them, only compared to Ferrari and perhaps some extend Mercedes (questionable). It mostly just makes it harder for Max to make a difference compared to his team mate imo in finishing ahead of Ferrari's or Mercs. And then there is Max DNF's and grid penalties further clouding Albons performances compared to Gasly.

Like I said Albon seems to be doing ok for now but I would like to see a couple more race pace comparisons and results before jumping the Albon is clearly an improvement over Gasly bandwagon.

Edited by Kao18, 14 October 2019 - 09:11.


#4165 shure

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 09:14

Personally as far as Albons performance goes I believe that is both a blessing and a curse. The car is not weaker compared to the teams directly behind them, only compared to Ferrari and perhaps some extend Mercedes (questionable). It mostly just makes it harder for Max to make a difference compared to his team mate imo in finishing ahead of Ferrari's or Mercs. And then there is Max DNF's and grid penalties further clouding Albons performances compared to Gasly.

Like I said Albon seems to be doing ok for now but I would like to see a couple more race pace comparisons and results before jumping the Albon is clearly an improvement over Gasly bandwagon.

Not sure it's a bandwagon when the results speak for themselves.  And no, I'm not just talking about points, but about the fact that Albon does show an ability to overtake and actually make a difference that was largely missing from Gasly in the Red Bull.  His very first race with the team was better than anything Gasly had done all year.



#4166 Requiem84

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 09:20

Albon's first time in Suzuka right?

 

He was within 0,4 of Max most of the weekend and actually almost beat him in qualifying. 

 

That is so much stronger than Gasly ever has been... 



#4167 shure

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 09:27

Albon's first time in Suzuka right?

 

He was within 0,4 of Max most of the weekend and actually almost beat him in qualifying. 

 

That is so much stronger than Gasly ever has been... 

Identical qualifying time, which is pretty good whichever way you look at it



#4168 goldenboy

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 09:29

I’m sure that if Max was in a championship battle, he would have left Charles a lot more room.

I don't think so. From Max's onboard it looked like a completely standard move to me.

#4169 goldenboy

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 09:32

Personally as far as Albons performance goes I believe that is both a blessing and a curse. The car is not weaker compared to the teams directly behind them, only compared to Ferrari and perhaps some extend Mercedes (questionable). It mostly just makes it harder for Max to make a difference compared to his team mate imo in finishing ahead of Ferrari's or Mercs. And then there is Max DNF's and grid penalties further clouding Albons performances compared to Gasly.

Like I said Albon seems to be doing ok for now but I would like to see a couple more race pace comparisons and results before jumping the Albon is clearly an improvement over Gasly bandwagon.

Ain't no bandwagon, he is head and shoulders above Gaslys performance.

#4170 goldenboy

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 09:34

I do think that Albon is definitely a upgrade over Gasly (ironically Gasly seems to be one at Toro Rosso too lmao)

Yes but it's also not uncommon for a rookie to have a drastic increase in performance half way through a season as the nerves are settled and the learning curve isn't as steep.

#4171 A3

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 11:41

I don't think so. From Max's onboard it looked like a completely standard move to me.


This. Another one claiming Max took a big risk. He started on the left side of the track and ended up on the outside of turn 1 and 2. Big surprise there.

I mean, where do people expect him to go?
BRgLi5d.png?1

#4172 Whatisvalis

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 12:12

This. Another one claiming Max took a big risk. He started on the left side of the track and ended up on the outside of turn 1 and 2. Big surprise there.

I mean, where do people expect him to go?
BRgLi5d.png?1


It was a great start and a brave move - but there was definitely high risk with the nature of that corner. Max even said as much during his interview on Sky after retiring - and I'm paraphrasing "everyone knows you lose front downforce behind another car, he should know better' in reference to Charles - that to me is Max saying I'm doing this and you have to be prepared to deal with it, which is fine with most of the top guys, but Charles has taken up Max's style of aggressiveness of late.

#4173 KevD

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 12:12

This. Another one claiming Max took a big risk. He started on the left side of the track and ended up on the outside of turn 1 and 2. Big surprise there.

I mean, where do people expect him to go?
BRgLi5d.png?1

 

This shot makes me wonder what could have been...He was so perfectly lined up for a slipstream behind Vettel and still carrying the momentum of a better start  :|



#4174 goldenboy

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 12:22

It was a great start and a brave move - but there was definitely high risk with the nature of that corner. Max even said as much during his interview on Sky after retiring - and I'm paraphrasing "everyone knows you lose front downforce behind another car, he should know better' in reference to Charles - that to me is Max saying I'm doing this and you have to be prepared to deal with it, which is fine with most of the top guys, but Charles has taken up Max's style of aggressiveness of late.

I don't see how it was all that brave or risky. As far as turn 1 risks that is barely anything.

#4175 A3

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 12:25

It was a great start and a brave move - but there was definitely high risk with the nature of that corner. Max even said as much during his interview on Sky after retiring - and I'm paraphrasing "everyone knows you lose front downforce behind another car, he should know better' in reference to Charles - that to me is Max saying I'm doing this and you have to be prepared to deal with it, which is fine with most of the top guys, but Charles has taken up Max's style of aggressiveness of late.


I think he means to say that Charles needed to back off, he was the one losing positions and there was no way he was going to win them back in turn 2 with the cars being where they were.

#4176 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 12:48

Albon's first time in Suzuka right?

He was within 0,4 of Max most of the weekend and actually almost beat him in qualifying.

That is so much stronger than Gasly ever has been...

Absolutely. Been pretty impressed by Albon so far, he's literally jumped into that car mid season and has been building pace and confidence at a good rate, whilst bringing in solid results.

That qualifying run was superb imo. First visit to Suzuka, to literally match Verstappens qualy time is a sensational effort.

Surely that seat is his now. And I think he's got the talent and mental strength to surprise moving forward.

#4177 Requiem84

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 12:51

Absolutely. Been pretty impressed by Albon so far, he's literally jumped into that car mid season and has been building pace and confidence at a good rate, whilst bringing in solid results.

That qualifying run was superb imo. First visit to Suzuka, to literally match Verstappens qualy time is a sensational effort.

Surely that seat is his now. And I think he's got the talent and mental strength to surprise moving forward.

 

On the other hand Gasly is suddenly doing really well in the TR.... 



#4178 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 12:54

On the other hand Gasly is suddenly doing really well in the TR....

Just goes to show you what happens, to some drivers, when they have to handle the expectations and pressures that come with a top team and car. Not everyone can handle it, particularly when a superstar like Verstappen is their teammate.

Albon >> Gasly.

#4179 Jbleroi

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 13:05

yeah Albon is doing well in the Redbull..  especially since he is still in his rookie season..   he is not afraid to overtake and is doing what he has to do.  no need to replace him for next year 



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#4180 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 13:25

On the other hand Gasly is suddenly doing really well in the TR.... 

A team that is more supportive of the drivers they get for a short while than RBR with their long term recruits.
And the STR seems to be easier to drive at the limit, not suiting everyone's style. Albon does seem to be adjusting to the RBR car better than Gasly. If next season the car is not sub-par (for a RBR), they can get double podiums. Maybe even Albon picking all the scraps after a problem with VER's car.



#4181 robefc

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 13:40

I think he means to say that Charles needed to back off, he was the one losing positions and there was no way he was going to win them back in turn 2 with the cars being where they were.

 

Agreed.

 

He's not taking Charles' line on a 'you slow down or we crash' basis, Charles has to take account of the impact Max's car will have on the performance of his - as Charles has subsequently admitted.



#4182 Arundo

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 14:48

It was a great start and a brave move - but there was definitely high risk with the nature of that corner. Max even said as much during his interview on Sky after retiring - and I'm paraphrasing "everyone knows you lose front downforce behind another car, he should know better' in reference to Charles - that to me is Max saying I'm doing this and you have to be prepared to deal with it, which is fine with most of the top guys, but Charles has taken up Max's style of aggressiveness of late.

 

Leclerc tried to be Max sadly he ran out of talent and into Max.

 

PS damage on Max his car:

 

soerwz2.jpg



#4183 goldenboy

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 14:56

Leclerc tried to be Max sadly he ran out of talent and into Max.

PS damage on Max his car:

soerwz2.jpg

You do realise how stupid that sounds after the incidents max has had over the years as well, right?

#4184 zanquis

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 15:14

It was a great start and a brave move - but there was definitely high risk with the nature of that corner. Max even said as much during his interview on Sky after retiring - and I'm paraphrasing "everyone knows you lose front downforce behind another car, he should know better' in reference to Charles - that to me is Max saying I'm doing this and you have to be prepared to deal with it, which is fine with most of the top guys, but Charles has taken up Max's style of aggressiveness of late.

 


That is more that Charles should have accounted for the loss of downforce because he is chosing to run the inside line behind Vettel. He should have known he could not hold the inside line AND keep his speed like that. Max got burned by the press and received super low 3's in ratings when he made such a move. It in no way implies Max taking additional risks or bold moves. He was well in front and Charles did a desperate attempt to keep his position neglecting to take into account HIS not Max loss of downforce.

#4185 zanquis

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 15:17

This shot makes me wonder what could have been...He was so perfectly lined up for a slipstream behind Vettel and still carrying the momentum of a better start  :|

 


Only way past that Ferrari is an overcut or an undercut. Trying to stay there for the next corners would have been hard. On the straights that Ferrari is amazingly fast.

#4186 zanquis

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 15:19

K on to Mexico. in previous years we had the benefit that the Renault struggled less than Ferrari and Mercedes on the thin air of Mexico. But what will the Honda do? will it shine or struggle? And will the Ferrari gains also translate well here or will the Bulls have the best package as previous years?

#4187 Laptom

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 16:00

I think he means to say that Charles needed to back off, he was the one losing positions and there was no way he was going to win them back in turn 2 with the cars being where they were.

 

For sure he was saying this. Lec should have know he was carying too much speed and flooring the pedal too soon and therefor loosing his front end. Max did absolutely nothing wrong and you can put this situation under 10 microscopes. Lec apologized and took the red lamp, but apparently people still want to put some blame in the shoes of Max. Let's move on and see how we can bash Max a bit more...



#4188 gillesfan76

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 16:05

Losing control of your car is now called hard racing? Max was in total control of his car in Austria and they just banged wheels without any damage. Leclerc lost control of his car, rammed Verstappen off track who had to retire because of the damage of his car. See the difference? Said it before, Leclerc tried to race hard but f#cked up.

 

After watching the Austria footage, I agree the two incidents were quite different. Max was in control in Austria, but banging wheels intentionally and pushing Charles off the road is an interesting take on "hard racing".

 

But all this hard racing has had an interesting effect. Agree that Charles tried it and screwed up. I think we're going to see a lot more incidents from so-called hard racing because obviously it will greatly increase the probability of collisions. I also found it interesting that Max said Charles' screw up was irresponsible given that Max has done exactly the same as Charles several times previously. Then again, he may be best placed to identify irresponsible actions.



#4189 Whatisvalis

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 16:06

I think he means to say that Charles needed to back off, he was the one losing positions and there was no way he was going to win them back in turn 2 with the cars being where they were.

 

Yea, but Charles doesn't back off - that's the risky bit.



#4190 Heyli

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 16:09

After watching the Austria footage, I agree the two incidents were quite different. Max was in control in Austria, but banging wheels intentionally and pushing Charles off the road is an interesting take on "hard racing".

 

But all this hard racing has had an interesting effect. Agree that Charles tried it and screwed up. I think we're going to see a lot more incidents from so-called hard racing because obviously it will greatly increase the probability of collisions. I also found it interesting that Max said Charles' screw up was irresponsible given that Max has done exactly the same as Charles several times previously. Then again, he may be best placed to identify irresponsible actions.

And he has owned up an appologized for that...



#4191 Ivanhoe

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 16:48

After watching the Austria footage, I agree the two incidents were quite different. Max was in control in Austria, but banging wheels intentionally and pushing Charles off the road is an interesting take on "hard racing".

Another difference between Austria and Suzuka is that Max’ move was on, he placed the car there even with a grass run off, where Leclerc’s defensive move was only on because there was tarmac all over, he would never have defensed that way had there been grass or gravel.

I also found it interesting that Max said Charles' screw up was irresponsible given that Max has done exactly the same as Charles several times previously. Then again, he may be best placed to identify irresponsible actions.

Several comparable actions? Help me out here, how many times did Max end another drivers race besides Hungary 2017 and Baku 2018 (even if the latter was considered a racing incident, but I blame Max for that one).

By the way, Jolyon Palmer agrees with you.

https://www.planetf1...-little-ironic/

Edited by Ivanhoe, 14 October 2019 - 16:55.


#4192 CharlesWinstone

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 17:13

After watching the Austria footage, I agree the two incidents were quite different. Max was in control in Austria, but banging wheels intentionally and pushing Charles off the road is an interesting take on "hard racing".

But all this hard racing has had an interesting effect. Agree that Charles tried it and screwed up. I think we're going to see a lot more incidents from so-called hard racing because obviously it will greatly increase the probability of collisions. I also found it interesting that Max said Charles' screw up was irresponsible given that Max has done exactly the same as Charles several times previously. Then again, he may be best placed to identify irresponsible actions.


Keep in mind that Charles lost control of his car sunday. That has nothing to do with hard racing.

I agree that we are going to see more incidents due to hard racing and i'm afraid that Charles will be involved more times than is good for him.
It's just a feeling but sometimes there is to much red fog in the kids helmet. Especially when Max is around. And that is a significant difference with Max. His is emotions do not result in wrecking stuff (irresponsible driving).

#4193 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 17:24

Keep in mind that Charles lost control of his car sunday. That has nothing to do with hard racing.

I agree that we are going to see more incidents due to hard racing and i'm afraid that Charles will be involved more times than is good for him.
It's just a feeling but sometimes there is to much red fog in the kids helmet. Especially when Max is around. And that is a significant difference with Max. His is emotions do not result in wrecking stuff (irresponsible driving).


To be fair, Max has had those red mist moments too. Belgium 2016 with Kimi springs to mind.

#4194 Ivanhoe

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 17:35

Hungary 2017 was like a carbon copy of Suzuka 2019. So yeah, Max has been there too. Wouldn’t really call it red mist, just too eager to make up for bad starts in the first corners.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 14 October 2019 - 17:37.


#4195 CharlesWinstone

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 17:39

To be fair, Max has had those red mist moments too. Belgium 2016 with Kimi springs to mind.


Not really. Max was so much on the inside curbstone that only a part of his tyre was on the track. He was in total control of his car

Similar to this year when Kimi starting on the outside turned to the apex without knowing if somebody (Max) was on the inside.
Kimi is a driver who is frequently involved in first corner incidents.

Max his emotional moments in almost 5 years F1 are limited. Hungary 2017 (Ricciardo) and China 2018 (Vettel).

#4196 Ivanhoe

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 17:46

I think FullOppositeLock was referring to Max’ defensive antics after that T1 incident (and saying in the post race interview he’d rather drive them off track than letting them overtake him).

Edited by Ivanhoe, 14 October 2019 - 17:48.


#4197 Heyli

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 18:10

Another difference between Austria and Suzuka is that Max’ move was on, he placed the car there even with a grass run off, where Leclerc’s defensive move was only on because there was tarmac all over, he would never have defensed that way had there been grass or gravel.

Several comparable actions? Help me out here, how many times did Max end another drivers race besides Hungary 2017 and Baku 2018 (even if the latter was considered a racing incident, but I blame Max for that one).

By the way, Jolyon Palmer agrees with you.

https://www.planetf1...-little-ironic/

Surprising. I usually agree with what Palmer says, but not this time. I just don´t think this classifies as an "elbows out" move. It´s more a "silly stumble and then fall on somebody else" kinda move... He made a clear error of judgement and Max had to pay for that. Don´t see how you can classify that as "elbows out" or "hard racing".



#4198 CharlesWinstone

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 18:11

I think FullOppositeLock was referring to Max’ defensive antics after that T1 incident (and saying in the post race interview he’d rather drive them off track than letting them overtake him).


In that case i agree. That was borderline and maybe crossed it bit. See similarities there with Charles defending in Siverstone this year.

#4199 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 18:16

Mexico up next. RB usually strong there, but with Ferrari's engine and low-drag, I think they'll be really strong there again. Then again, who knows because the thin air might help Merc out more with their higher downforce. Lets see but I'm hopeful a top-3 in qualifying is on and with a good race maybe a win.


This RB chassis does not have the positive traits of its predecessors, so I am not expecting too much in Mexico. Hopefully the aero team is extra hard at work, because the current aero philosophy does not work anymore.

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#4200 Arundo

Arundo
  • Member

  • 1,360 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 14 October 2019 - 19:16

 

I guess there is no difference between wheelbanging and driving the side of someone else his car.