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Ferrari 2019: Vettel vs Leclerc, Binotto vs shareholders, expectation vs reality


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#5601 goldenboy

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 14:41

I think saying vettel wil eat Rosberg alive is pretty wishful thinking. They would probably be close.

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#5602 1Devil1

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 14:44

I think saying vettel wil eat Rosberg alive is pretty wishful thinking. They would probably be close.

 

Rosberg had troubles with old Schumacher regarding race pace from mid 2011-2012. His race pace was never special. In the Mercedes that wasn't the problem he would still finish second. I see him edge Vettel in qualifying like he did with Lewis from time to time.   


Edited by 1Devil1, 09 September 2019 - 14:44.


#5603 Radion

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 15:27

Rosberg had troubles with old Schumacher regarding race pace from mid 2011-2012. His race pace was never special. In the Mercedes that wasn't the problem he would still finish second. I see him edge Vettel in qualifying like he did with Lewis from time to time.

Vettel has nothing to show off in terms of race pace either. He had better race pace than Webber and Kimi. That's certain, not a feat thoug. Against ricci not so much and leclerc is getting to him as well. To act as if vettel would beat rosberg in races is bold.

#5604 gillesfan76

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 16:17

 

You miss one point. Rosberg had only one opponent. And that was Lewis. He could settle for second place. He nearly lost against Vettel in a superior car in 2015. His race craft is poor, his skills in the wet questionable. He went missing  when the car wasn't good. I never seen him win in the second best car what. Vettel certainly did for example in 2015. He didn't took 4 titles home, he left the moment he got away with it. Kudos for that. If we talk about peak performance Vettel eats him alive.    

 

 

I don't disagree but the picture becomes muddier when you look at the team and team mate dynamics. Nico was a beaten man by the end of 2014. Beaten several times in a clean fight with Lewis. I suspect that mentally he fell back in 2015 while Lewis ran away with the momentum. However to Nico's credit he came back fighting at the end of 2015 and took it well into 2016. He was spent at the end of 2016 and having achieved what he managed to, with some luck, he knew he didn't have anything left to give for yet another season's battle.

 

Except for 2014, where I get the feeling Seb didn't care anyway as he knew he was leaving for Ferrari and Red Bull didn't stand a chance for the title that year either, he didn't have team mates who could challenge him. Nico was confident too until he got broken down from 2014 onwards.

 

You say Nico never won in the second best car. He won twice in 2013 against Lewis' one win in the same year.



#5605 wj_gibson

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 18:58

Just out of interest, what does Ferrari do if Vettel actually does get a one-race ban in the forthcoming races? It's not like they have a third driver ready to slot in. Would they recall Kimi and let Alfa Romeo use Ericsson as a substitute for a race? 


Edited by wj_gibson, 09 September 2019 - 18:58.


#5606 Trust

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 19:21

If it really happens, I hope ban comes to some track that suits Ferrari. Kimi can shine one more time.



#5607 Marklar

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 19:32

Just out of interest, what does Ferrari do if Vettel actually does get a one-race ban in the forthcoming races? It's not like they have a third driver ready to slot in. Would they recall Kimi and let Alfa Romeo use Ericsson as a substitute for a race? 

Either that or Wehrlein maybe?
 

 

Vettel has nothing to show off in terms of race pace either. He had better race pace than Webber and Kimi. That's certain, not a feat thoug. Against ricci not so much and leclerc is getting to him as well. To act as if vettel would beat rosberg in races is bold.

I dont think that it's bold. Rosberg was clearly slower than Hamilton in races. The few races Mercedes actually had to fight for it showcasted this. When you run 1-2 from start to finish it always flatters the 2nd driver. Just like it did to Bottas earlier this year.

Of course the question is how much off Hamilton you assume Vettel to be, and it's certainly bold to assume that Vettel would eat Rosberg alive given how much more narrow Vettel's operating window appears to be and how many errors he does, but the race pace is really the only thing I give Vettel at this point, so it's not far-fetched, though we will never know.



#5608 Shuffle

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 19:40

Just out of interest, what does Ferrari do if Vettel actually does get a one-race ban in the forthcoming races? It's not like they have a third driver ready to slot in. Would they recall Kimi and let Alfa Romeo use Ericsson as a substitute for a race? 

I’m not sure if they could get Kimi, does he still have links to Ferrari? I thought he was out completely now?

 

I’d guess it’d be Gio who jumped up for a race, with Ericsson replacing him like you said. Or one of the Ferrari sim drivers Wehrlein or Hartley replacing Gio if Ericsson doesn’t want to after what happened at Spa. I doubt that though, I think he’d jump at the chance of a race seat.



#5609 FrontWing

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 20:26

Either that or Wehrlein maybe?


I dont think that it's bold. Rosberg was clearly slower than Hamilton in races. The few races Mercedes actually had to fight for it showcasted this. When you run 1-2 from start to finish it always flatters the 2nd driver. Just like it did to Bottas earlier this year.

Of course the question is how much off Hamilton you assume Vettel to be, and it's certainly bold to assume that Vettel would eat Rosberg alive given how much more narrow Vettel's operating window appears to be and how many errors he does, but the race pace is really the only thing I give Vettel at this point, so it's not far-fetched, though we will never know.

Vettel has been 2 different drivers over his career. Current Vettel is shot to pieces, I'm not sure he's ever getting back to any kind of form he once had. So which Vettel do you use for comparison?

Edited by FrontWing, 09 September 2019 - 20:26.


#5610 f1paul

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 20:28

If it really happens, I hope ban comes to some track that suits Ferrari. Kimi can shine one more time.

One problem with that...

 

...tracks that suit Ferrari.   ;)



#5611 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 21:07

Vettel has been 2 different drivers over his career. Current Vettel is shot to pieces, I'm not sure he's ever getting back to any kind of form he once had. So which Vettel do you use for comparison?

that's the thing, maybe there's no two Vettels. He probably doesn't like the car's handling nor the development direction and that's getting to him. He's had a hard time against Webber at points and he was miles faster at other points vs Webber, he's had problems with Ricciardo, he blew away Kimi who seems to be doing pretty good now - so it could be about his operating window.



#5612 HPT

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 21:47

Just out of interest, what does Ferrari do if Vettel actually does get a one-race ban in the forthcoming races? It's not like they have a third driver ready to slot in. Would they recall Kimi and let Alfa Romeo use Ericsson as a substitute for a race?


They would put Gio in the car. Alfa would then call up Erickson who is their reserve driver.

#5613 RPM40

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 21:51

If it really happens, I hope ban comes to some track that suits Ferrari. Kimi can shine one more time.

Kimi didn't shine in his previous stint with Ferrari, why would he here?



#5614 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 22:31

Kimi didn't shine in his previous stint with Ferrari, why would he here?

he shines better than Gio now...



#5615 noikeee

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 22:36

I don't want to see Vettel kind of humiliated, which is what a race ban would be, but that would be a fun one off for someone, so make it happen. Hopefully they put in Wehrlein for extra randomness and also because he deserves a chance.

#5616 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 23:11

Leclerc reminds me of Giancarlo Fisichella. :up:

Don't see that at all. Fisichella between the ears was suspect, his racecraft was suspect and his defensive driving in battle was horrible at times. Charles is in a different class already.

#5617 MortenF1

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 23:15

Totally agree. Fisichella hardly knew left from right and wasn’t very fast. Atleast not in a pressured enviroment that comes with a competitive car.

#5618 HPT

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 02:01

Don't see that at all. Fisichella between the ears was suspect, his racecraft was suspect and his defensive driving in battle was horrible at times. Charles is in a different class already.


I think he meant his looks and demeanor

#5619 Myrvold

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 02:37

Just out of interest, what does Ferrari do if Vettel actually does get a one-race ban in the forthcoming races?  

 

Don't worry, just watch how the FIA will bend and twist to not give Vettel 3 more penalty points :) We've been close to race bans before, and suddenly the FIA have dished out less penalty points than usual for different offences, until the driver are in the clear.



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#5620 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 03:51

I think he meant his looks and demeanor

Oh right, yes can understand that. Apologies if I got that wrong.

#5621 Marklar

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 07:24

Don't worry, just watch how the FIA will bend and twist to not give Vettel 3 more penalty points :) We've been close to race bans before, and suddenly the FIA have dished out less penalty points than usual for different offences, until the driver are in the clear.

I reckon if he does something like on sunday or Grosjean in Spa back then that is perceived to be utterly dangerous they will not bend. But if it's just some normal incidents, then yeah, no way.

#5622 sopa

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 10:16

Leclerc is on a roll currently. Though he shown that he is vulnerable to locking up and running wide under pressure too, he has delivered, which is fair enough. His qualifying streak goes a long way too already.

 

So Vettel is the hunter now. Singapore has traditionally been one of his best circuits. So if he is to make the end-season of this battle interesting, this is the perfect place to bounce back and frankly this is where he has to do it. Still 13 points in it, which is close enough. All is not lost yet, but this might be the last opportunity for Vettel, because in 2020 it would be harder to beat a more experienced Leclerc.



#5623 Atreiu

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 11:15

People have short memories.

 

Rosberg was consistent, but never brilliant. His reputation is built over 3 historically dominant cars which should have been 1-2 in 90% plus of the races entered. He never won a wet race over Hamilton, how often did he win over Hamilton without leading the first lap?

 

Peak Vettel would give him the same treatment.

 

Rosberg remains terrific for his consistency and resilience, I give him that. But his peak was never as high as Vettel's.

 

----

 

Who said Leclerc was like Fisichella? Come one, Fisichella had two seasons in WDC/WCC cars and not once had a race like Leclerc has just had.



#5624 Astandahl

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 13:33

Leclerc is on a roll currently. Though he shown that he is vulnerable to locking up and running wide under pressure too, he has delivered, which is fair enough. His qualifying streak goes a long way too already.

 

So Vettel is the hunter now. Singapore has traditionally been one of his best circuits. So if he is to make the end-season of this battle interesting, this is the perfect place to bounce back and frankly this is where he has to do it. Still 13 points in it, which is close enough. All is not lost yet, but this might be the last opportunity for Vettel, because in 2020 it would be harder to beat a more experienced Leclerc.

Everyone locked up in the first corner.  It's one of the most difficult braking zone to get right , especially when you don't have a lot of grip.

 

Both Charles and Lewis did an incredible job locking up only 1 time each in 53 laps.



#5625 robefc

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 13:37

I don't want to see Vettel kind of humiliated, which is what a race ban would be, but that would be a fun one off for someone, so make it happen. Hopefully they put in Wehrlein for extra randomness and also because he deserves a chance.

 

As someone who really likes Vettel out of the car I don't either but if he does anything stupid again he would thoroughly deserve it, he's lucky not to have been DQ'd twice in the last 3 years (Baku 2017 being the other example). 



#5626 Ev0d3vil

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 14:39

Not a Leclerc fan yet, but I really want to see him win another time, the Monegasque anthem has really grown on me lol!

 



#5627 Jovanotti

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 14:49

Not a Leclerc fan yet, but I really want to see him win another time, the Monegasque anthem has really grown on me lol!

https://www.youtube....h?v=OxDpksrQ3WI

Tbh honest every time I hear it, it reminds me of this :lol:


Edited by Jovanotti, 10 September 2019 - 15:18.


#5628 AlphaRacer

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 15:04

Don't see that at all. Fisichella between the ears was suspect, his racecraft was suspect and his defensive driving in battle was horrible at times. Charles is in a different class already.

I agree, Leclerc would "murder" Fisichella and I really liked Fisichella! However Leclercc adapts so fast to new situations and cars, Fisichella didn´t have that talent and the dfesive skills of Leclerc are just insane!



#5629 MalcolmC

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 02:44

Clearly Vettel felt let down by Leclerc during the Monza qualifying and their relationship is possibly a little 'rocky' so I was wondering if this may effect Leclerc's upcoming performances. Would Leclerc be relying on Vettel's experience in setting up the car?  If Vettel wanted to, would it be possible for his side of the garage to withhold setup data from Leclerc's engineers?



#5630 HeadFirst

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 04:58

Kimi didn't shine in his previous stint with Ferrari, why would he here?

 

Kimi had a great race at Monza last year, and won the USGP. He's also had some pretty good races in the Alfa this year. What has Seb done recently? I wouldn't expect him to beat Charles, but do expect that he would do the car justice.



#5631 baddog

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:13

Kimi had a great race at Monza last year, and won the USGP. He's also had some pretty good races in the Alfa this year. What has Seb done recently? I wouldn't expect him to beat Charles, but do expect that he would do the car justice.

 

If you are considering 'recently' to include last year then what he did was made Kimi look very bad all year, just like the year before and the year before that.. I mean seriously plenty of criticism is called for but outright revisionism is not.



#5632 HeadFirst

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:20

If you are considering 'recently' to include last year then what he did was made Kimi look very bad all year, just like the year before and the year before that.. I mean seriously plenty of criticism is called for but outright revisionism is not.

 

I am considering that Kimi finished strongly last year, and has been doing well in the Alfa. Seb's issues started in Germany (I think) last year, and have continued this year. By any reasonable assessment, 'recently' does not include 2 and 3 years ago.



#5633 baddog

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:37

I am considering that Kimi finished strongly last year, and has been doing well in the Alfa. Seb's issues started in Germany (I think) last year, and have continued this year. By any reasonable assessment, 'recently' does not include 2 and 3 years ago.

 

I am thrilled to see Kimi doing well at Alfa as I think he has been much maligned. Kimi had a good race at Monza (with a bit of help!) and deserved a nice last win, but he was the second best Ferrari driver last year by a good margin.



#5634 Lights

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 05:40

Kimi had a great race at Monza last year, and won the USGP. He's also had some pretty good races in the Alfa this year. What has Seb done recently?

 

Ehm, he won at Spa last year, and had great races at Singapore, Russia, Mexico, Abu Dhabi. Then this year he's had some pretty good races too. What's your point?



#5635 teejay

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 06:00

People have short memories.

 

Rosberg was consistent, but never brilliant. His reputation is built over 3 historically dominant cars which should have been 1-2 in 90% plus of the races entered. He never won a wet race over Hamilton, how often did he win over Hamilton without leading the first lap?

 

Peak Vettel would give him the same treatment.

 

Rosberg remains terrific for his consistency and resilience, I give him that. But his peak was never as high as Vettel's.

 

----

 

Who said Leclerc was like Fisichella? Come one, Fisichella had two seasons in WDC/WCC cars and not once had a race like Leclerc has just had.

 

 

This. 

 

It took all the cards in the world falling absolutely right for him to get his title. 

 

If he was around atm with Ferrar/RBR in the mix at times he would be in trouble. 



#5636 Zilbert

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 06:54

If you are considering 'recently' to include last year then what he did was made Kimi look very bad all year, just like the year before and the year before that.. I mean seriously plenty of criticism is called for but outright revisionism is not.

If your count back includes '16, like it seems, when he was outqualified by Kimi and needed strategic help or crash tactics to finish in front of Kimi on many occasions i would say that's quite of revisionism right there  :wave:



#5637 baddog

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 07:37

If your count back includes '16, like it seems, when he was outqualified by Kimi and needed strategic help or crash tactics to finish in front of Kimi on many occasions i would say that's quite of revisionism right there  :wave:

 

Ah knew that was coming, there's always one who reads but not watches, or watches rather wishfully. The world did not think Kimi was the better of the two in 2016, because he wasn't. Sure his fans made a lot of **** up but you do that when you don't want to face reality (and maybe this year will prove to be the same story for Vettel)

 

But lets give Kimi 2016, what the hell. His fans need something.

 

2015, 2017, 2018 he was clearly beaten. He looks great in the Alfa though, because he is not and never was slow. 



#5638 Zilbert

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 07:44

Ah knew that was coming, there's always one who reads but not watches, or watches rather wishfully. The world did not think Kimi was the better of the two in 2016, because he wasn't. Sure his fans made a lot of **** up but you do that when you don't want to face reality (and maybe this year will prove to be the same story for Vettel)

 

But lets give Kimi 2016, what the hell. His fans need something.

 

2015, 2017, 2018 he was clearly beaten. He looks great in the Alfa though, because he is not and never was slow. 

Not saying Kimi was necessarily better of the two that year, but to claim he was made to look bad is delusional, and it's something you seem eager to repeat over and over like it's going to make it true. It's your reality that is wishful and warped.  :drunk:



#5639 Marklar

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 08:11

Well, Kimi did look very bad in 2014, 15, 17. Without Vettel spinning every race 2018 would have looked less favourable too. 2016 was good in qualifying, but not in the race.

Kimi is super reliable, probably the cleanest racer in the field, but unless he has a car that suits him perfectly it's not even close.

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#5640 Zilbert

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 08:47

Well, Kimi did look very bad in 2014, 15, 17. Without Vettel spinning every race 2018 would have looked less favourable too. 2016 was good in qualifying, but not in the race.

Kimi is super reliable, probably the cleanest racer in the field, but unless he has a car that suits him perfectly it's not even close.

Even that is being overstated, there were weekends he had as good if not slightly better race pace. Kimi struggled with tyre life in some weekends, especially in second half, which Vettel used to pass him on a different strategy. 



#5641 Zilbert

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 08:58

Also Vettel spins in '18 came mostly when he was behind Kimi : Monza, Austin (he did marginally outqualified Kimi but had a penalty to be fair), Suzuka. It's to easy to say yes, but Vettel better race pace, bla, bla, but that means not giving Kimi benefit of the doubt. 



#5642 keeppari

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 09:04

If you are considering 'recently' to include last year then what he did was made Kimi look very bad all year, just like the year before and the year before that.. I mean seriously plenty of criticism is called for but outright revisionism is not.

Imo Kimi's 2018 was one of the better season of his second stint at Ferrari. In the end, there was ~70 points between him and Vettel in the WDC but Kimi had 4 DNFs (zero driver errors) against 1 DNF for Vettel (driver error). Add into the equation the preferential treatment in race strategy for Vettel and there wasn't much between them although Vettel was clearly stronger during the first half of the season and in quali.

Race head-to-head was 9-8 for Vettel and both had the exact same avg. race finish (3rd) over the season. Despite losing the quali battle 17-4 the avg. grid positions of the drivers were 3rd and 4th.

Kimi looked lousy in the Ferrari on many occasions but 2018 wasn't generally that bad.

Edited by keeppari, 11 September 2019 - 09:05.


#5643 baddog

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 11:23

Im not saying Kimi was bad, he was just not as good as his teammate. Its other people here saying Seb was bad and Kimi was therefore horrible which is unfair to both of them.



#5644 v@sh

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:05

that's the thing, maybe there's no two Vettels. He probably doesn't like the car's handling nor the development direction and that's getting to him. He's had a hard time against Webber at points and he was miles faster at other points vs Webber, he's had problems with Ricciardo, he blew away Kimi who seems to be doing pretty good now - so it could be about his operating window.

 

It's always about operating window for drivers, whether it is the tires or the car handling. He had a hard time against Webber when the blown diffuser was banned because of his driving style - not intuiative to Webber who could not get around it when it came back into effect. The Pirelli tires also meant Webber couldn't make them last as long so it was a double whammy for Webber (blown diffuser effect + tires) hence Vettel was massively ahead especially in 2011 and 2013. Webber was quicker in the faster corners (hence why he always did better at tracks like Silverstone) and Vettel slower corners and every track there will be more slow speed corners compared to fast ones.

 

When RIcciardo came along, he was as quick as Vettel in the slow corners but also held the advantage Webber had in the faster corners while making his tires last. Kimi also had a particular operating window, case in point when he was up against Grosjean at Renault when Pirelli changed the tire construction midway through the season that team-mate battle basically flipped on his head.

 

All the best drivers and the fastest ones adapt to the car and regs quicker than others which is why Alonso/Hamilton will always be up there. Vettel apart from the his driving style where he needs a more planted rear end also has a tendency to see red mist and let his emotions take over + his racecraft can be suspect at times which leads to mistakes. Vettel on his day when he is on is brilliant (e.g. 2015 singapore both him and Ricciardo were in a class of their own) but once the pressure ramps up, it takes a toll on him IMO. Vettel will still be a great driver, but he will never be the 4xWDC fans are expecting because the car, regulations and team-mate at that time suited Vettel to a tee where he could just run away from the front from the off. That is never going to happen again.



#5645 shure

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 12:17

It's always about operating window for drivers, whether it is the tires or the car handling. He had a hard time against Webber when the blown diffuser was banned because of his driving style - not intuiative to Webber who could not get around it when it came back into effect. The Pirelli tires also meant Webber couldn't make them last as long so it was a double whammy for Webber (blown diffuser effect + tires) hence Vettel was massively ahead especially in 2011 and 2013. Webber was quicker in the faster corners (hence why he always did better at tracks like Silverstone) and Vettel slower corners and every track there will be more slow speed corners compared to fast ones.

 

When RIcciardo came along, he was as quick as Vettel in the slow corners but also held the advantage Webber had in the faster corners while making his tires last. Kimi also had a particular operating window, case in point when he was up against Grosjean at Renault when Pirelli changed the tire construction midway through the season that team-mate battle basically flipped on his head.

 

All the best drivers and the fastest ones adapt to the car and regs quicker than others which is why Alonso/Hamilton will always be up there. Vettel apart from the his driving style where he needs a more planted rear end also has a tendency to see red mist and let his emotions take over + his racecraft can be suspect at times which leads to mistakes. Vettel on his day when he is on is brilliant (e.g. 2015 singapore both him and Ricciardo were in a class of their own) but once the pressure ramps up, it takes a toll on him IMO. Vettel will still be a great driver, but he will never be the 4xWDC fans are expecting because the car, regulations and team-mate at that time suited Vettel to a tee where he could just run away from the front from the off. That is never going to happen again.

I agree with most of the points here but would add that when he is comfortable with the car he's always been a bit of a tyre whisperer, but that vanishes pretty quick when he's not happy.  2014 for example he was very poor on the tyres, too, which helped further the gap between him and Ricciardo.

 

Don't agree with your last sentence.  It may not happen again but see no reason to believe it definitely won't.  If he has a car which behaves to his liking he can be as quick as anyone



#5646 HPT

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 13:18

Why are you guys discussing Kimi and Vettel? By all accounts, Kimi was trashed by Alonso. The fact that there’s a debate about Vettel and Kimi doesn’t bode well for Vettel at all.

In summary, Vettel is bad. Kimi is slightly worse *runs*

😄

Edited by HPT, 11 September 2019 - 13:18.


#5647 HPT

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 13:20

In all seriousness, we keep saying Kimi is doing well at Alfa. But he doesn’t have a known benchmark. Gio could be the worst rookie in history for all we know. Maybe he’s not doing any better at Alfa than he was at Ferrari. Just a thought...

#5648 Trust

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 17:38

Alonso drove with Kimi only one season.

#5649 SCUDmissile

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 10:19

https://twitter.com/...2814467072?s=19

1 year ago today.

I remember Kimi fans raging and acting concerned whether Leclerc was too young and not ready... I'd say he has assuaged these concerns.

Also look at the first reply... 😢

Edited by SCUDmissile, 14 September 2019 - 10:20.


#5650 kosmos

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 11:31

Alonso drove with Kimi only one season.

 

Don't think it will look that much better if it was two seasons.