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Ferrari 2019: Vettel vs Leclerc, Binotto vs shareholders, expectation vs reality


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#7751 Marklar

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 19:48

I don't understand why we talk about the sportsmen in F1 in total isolation to athletes in many other disclipines.

Top athletes in other disclipines decline and make more mistakes as they age ( *cough Roger Federer cough*). It's human nature to an extent. Yes, mistakes suck, but we shouldn't be thinking that athletes become more and more perfect as they age...and therefore Vettel is the anomaly. Because that's not the case in any other sport. Actually Lewis is the anomaly because he's getting older, but not making mistakes.

20-30 seems to be where the peak is physically. Beyond 30's men should be declining physically due to lower testosterone levels. Every person is unique, but generally decline starts in 30's.

That's not really true. Generally in every sport athletes make many mistakes when they are very young. It would be shocking if not considering their experience. It's their peak (somewhere between mid/late 20s to mid 30s) where
they should hit the optimum balance between experience/consistency/performance.

30-32 is still prime for most, in most disciplines in fact.

The Roger Federer example is valid, but he is 38. There are old athletes who continue to stay relatively solid but are lacking performance (e.g. Kimi), but also older athletes that get more and more error prone, that's indeed depending on the person. But Vettel isnt this old yet.

So yes, Leclerc doing so many mistakes is naturally expected, while Vettel not so much. Of course reality then always looks different from person to person (and Vettel is maybe a extreme example of that) but considering the athletes experience and age is important in context if you try to compare driver and their tendency to screw ups. A 22-24 year old who is a couple of years in F1 is much more likely to screw up than a driver in his early 30s and more than a decade under his belt, hence why I disagree with his verdict on how Vettel's Ferrari time compares to Hamilton's McLaren time.

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#7752 FLB

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 19:55

Tom Kristensen won his last Le Mans at 45.



#7753 Marklar

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 20:05

Tom Kristensen won his last Le Mans at 45.

endurance racing is again a different ballpark, but indeed :p

#7754 Requiem84

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 21:54

I don't understand why we talk about the sportsmen in F1 in total isolation to athletes in many other disclipines.

Top athletes in other disclipines decline and make more mistakes as they age ( *cough Roger Federer cough*). It's human nature to an extent. Yes, mistakes suck, but we shouldn't be thinking that athletes become more and more perfect as they age...and therefore Vettel is the anomaly. Because that's not the case in any other sport. Actually Lewis is the anomaly because he's getting older, but not making mistakes.

20-30 seems to be where the peak is physically. Beyond 30's men should be declining physically due to lower testosterone levels. Every person is unique, but generally decline starts in 30's.


F1 races are not thát physical anymore.

#7755 Unicast

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 22:35

endurance racing is again a different ballpark, but indeed :p

 

Let's just wait for Lewis to have an uncompetitive car and then we'll talk about mistakes and lack of speed.

It's easy to win with the best equipment and he had it easy for the last 6 years, no real competition.... and let's not forget Rosberg manage to beat him, and Rosberg was never rated as one of the greats.


Edited by Unicast, 07 December 2019 - 22:37.


#7756 Marklar

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Posted 07 December 2019 - 23:10

Let's just wait for Lewis to have an uncompetitive car and then we'll talk about mistakes and lack of speed.
It's easy to win with the best equipment and he had it easy for the last 6 years, no real competition.... and let's not forget Rosberg manage to beat him, and Rosberg was never rated as one of the greats.

Yeah, no real competition...2017-18...the revisionism is ridiculous on that one.

Rosberg needed 4 engine failures to beat him, that's all you have? Kvyat beat Ricciardo under the same circumstances, Ricciardo Verstappen, Button Alonso. There is a huge difference between the points standings and actual performance. Leclerc vs Vettel is a example for this too, even if not as extreme as the above mentioned.

Hamilton in 2007-2013 didnt had a dominant car either (or maybe he had with your standards). Except of 2013 when he struggled to adapt to the Mercedes when has he lacked speed? After 2011 he barely did mistakes anymore either and this included two years at very least with not the quickest car.

Of course it could be that he will lose speed at some point, but not because he will not drive against "no real competition anymore", but rather because in 1-2 years he is certainly starting to reach a age where it could go downhill maybe (perhaps conveniently)

The entire argument that Vettel does mistakes because of a weak car and everyone else would too are just a big fat BS and a extremely weak attempt to sugercoat him. And Vettel himself is proof for this: This years car is weaker than last years, how come he did less mistakes with it? Hamilton too. This years Merc was much better than last years, yet he did more mistakes this year. Alonso did little errors between 2011 and 2014 with a car that was at stages terrible, yet the only year the car was at least not outright the third quickest, but perhaps more, he did loads of mistakes (2010).

There are so many examples of drivers doing very well in slower cars, and drivers doing not so good in quick cars that I can't believe that it is still a argument.

#7757 shure

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 00:52

Yeah, no real competition...2017-18...the revisionism is ridiculous on that one.

Rosberg needed 4 engine failures to beat him, that's all you have? Kvyat beat Ricciardo under the same circumstances, Ricciardo Verstappen, Button Alonso. There is a huge difference between the points standings and actual performance. Leclerc vs Vettel is a example for this too, even if not as extreme as the above mentioned.

Hamilton in 2007-2013 didnt had a dominant car either (or maybe he had with your standards). Except of 2013 when he struggled to adapt to the Mercedes when has he lacked speed? After 2011 he barely did mistakes anymore either and this included two years at very least with not the quickest car.

Of course it could be that he will lose speed at some point, but not because he will not drive against "no real competition anymore", but rather because in 1-2 years he is certainly starting to reach a age where it could go downhill maybe (perhaps conveniently)

The entire argument that Vettel does mistakes because of a weak car and everyone else would too are just a big fat BS and a extremely weak attempt to sugercoat him. And Vettel himself is proof for this: This years car is weaker than last years, how come he did less mistakes with it? Hamilton too. This years Merc was much better than last years, yet he did more mistakes this year. Alonso did little errors between 2011 and 2014 with a car that was at stages terrible, yet the only year the car was at least not outright the third quickest, but perhaps more, he did loads of mistakes (2010).

There are so many examples of drivers doing very well in slower cars, and drivers doing not so good in quick cars that I can't believe that it is still a argument.

Agree with some of what you're saying here but of course it's an argument.  If a driver has a car that can win if he drives it at 90-95%, then he's bound to make fewer mistakes than one who has to push at 100% just to keep up (figures made up to illustrate a point, before any mathematicians take issue).   



#7758 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 01:49

Anyone disputing Hamilton's level of talent in a 'non dominating' or just plain inferior package quite frankly needs a history lesson. He had a period in 2011 that was somewhat 'off colour' in terms of results and, even then, he was still outright faster than Jenson Button most of the time. One might point to 2016 as a chink in the armour - still more poles and wins that season than Rosberg.

He's rarely had an average period. And his high points have been very regular and quite frankly phenomenal.

#7759 Requiem84

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 09:23

Yeah, no real competition...2017-18...the revisionism is ridiculous on that one.

Rosberg needed 4 engine failures to beat him, that's all you have? Kvyat beat Ricciardo under the same circumstances, Ricciardo Verstappen, Button Alonso. There is a huge difference between the points standings and actual performance. Leclerc vs Vettel is a example for this too, even if not as extreme as the above mentioned.

Hamilton in 2007-2013 didnt had a dominant car either (or maybe he had with your standards). Except of 2013 when he struggled to adapt to the Mercedes when has he lacked speed? After 2011 he barely did mistakes anymore either and this included two years at very least with not the quickest car.

Of course it could be that he will lose speed at some point, but not because he will not drive against "no real competition anymore", but rather because in 1-2 years he is certainly starting to reach a age where it could go downhill maybe (perhaps conveniently)

The entire argument that Vettel does mistakes because of a weak car and everyone else would too are just a big fat BS and a extremely weak attempt to sugercoat him. And Vettel himself is proof for this: This years car is weaker than last years, how come he did less mistakes with it? Hamilton too. This years Merc was much better than last years, yet he did more mistakes this year. Alonso did little errors between 2011 and 2014 with a car that was at stages terrible, yet the only year the car was at least not outright the third quickest, but perhaps more, he did loads of mistakes (2010).

There are so many examples of drivers doing very well in slower cars, and drivers doing not so good in quick cars that I can't believe that it is still a argument.


Mercedes won 75% of all races since 2014.

75% of all races in 6 years: nobody in the history of F1 has had such a dominant car for such a long period.

In 2014-2016 they had a big PU advantage which made recovering from bad positions much easier too. This is the first year where they had a larger PU/speed deficit and immediately things started to become more difficult for Lewis when he was behind (Monza, Brazil..).

Had Lewis had the Renault PU for those years, I’m sure he would have made more mistakes simply because more risk is required to overtake then.

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#7760 Marklar

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 10:06

well, that *could* be, but coming back to Vettel he has done more ever since he has the best engine, Lewis also did more in 2014-16 than in 17-19, so it's not really a given.

Sometimes having weaker material gives you also the mindset to just settle for it (Max kinda did this earlier this year), while when you know that you have the best car you sometimes feel like you should overtake and then you force it. It really depends on the mindset of a driver.

Plus we are acting here like Vettel has to race in the midfield. The top 3 are always their own class, really.

Edited by Marklar, 08 December 2019 - 10:07.


#7761 Requiem84

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 10:13

Without a question Vettel will always make these kind of mistakes when racing close to others. It’s a pattern since his first year already.

#7762 w1Y

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 11:18

I genuinely like vettel and still rate him. Cant help but feel him in a merc would be a different driver than what we are seeing atm.

And for a bit of fun

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#7763 Requiem84

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 11:33

well, that *could* be, but coming back to Vettel he has done more ever since he has the best engine, Lewis also did more in 2014-16 than in 17-19, so it's not really a given.

Sometimes having weaker material gives you also the mindset to just settle for it (Max kinda did this earlier this year), while when you know that you have the best car you sometimes feel like you should overtake and then you force it. It really depends on the mindset of a driver.

Plus we are acting here like Vettel has to race in the midfield. The top 3 are always their own class, really.

 

Forgot to respond to this:

 

Lewis made more mistakes in '14 - '16 because the risk of actually losing the title in '14 and '16 was much bigger than it has ever been in '17-'19. 

 

That's why Lewis had to take more risks (especially vs Rosberg) in those years. I think deep down Lewis knows he has got Vettel covered in terms of raw talent. He's not 'too' worried about Vettel, because he feels that Vettel has recurring weaknesses in his game. 

The way Lewis races Verstappen (and to an extent also Leclerc) indicates to me that he 'takes them more seriously'. I think if it will be a flat out title fight against Verstappen and Merc has a slightly lesser car, we'll see Lewis making more mistakes too. 

 

But I'm veering pretty much off topic. 



#7764 Marklar

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 12:14

I genuinely like vettel and still rate him. Cant help but feel him in a merc would be a different driver than what we are seeing atm.

 

Vettel needs a high rake car, Mercedes has by far the lowest rake in the field for the sixth year running. He would be indeed a different driver at Mercedes, but not in a good way.



#7765 Unicast

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 14:52

Yeah, no real competition...2017-18...the revisionism is ridiculous on that one.

Rosberg needed 4 engine failures to beat him, that's all you have? Kvyat beat Ricciardo under the same circumstances, Ricciardo Verstappen, Button Alonso. There is a huge difference between the points standings and actual performance. Leclerc vs Vettel is a example for this too, even if not as extreme as the above mentioned.

Hamilton in 2007-2013 didnt had a dominant car either (or maybe he had with your standards). Except of 2013 when he struggled to adapt to the Mercedes when has he lacked speed? After 2011 he barely did mistakes anymore either and this included two years at very least with not the quickest car.

Of course it could be that he will lose speed at some point, but not because he will not drive against "no real competition anymore", but rather because in 1-2 years he is certainly starting to reach a age where it could go downhill maybe (perhaps conveniently)

The entire argument that Vettel does mistakes because of a weak car and everyone else would too are just a big fat BS and a extremely weak attempt to sugercoat him. And Vettel himself is proof for this: This years car is weaker than last years, how come he did less mistakes with it? Hamilton too. This years Merc was much better than last years, yet he did more mistakes this year. Alonso did little errors between 2011 and 2014 with a car that was at stages terrible, yet the only year the car was at least not outright the third quickest, but perhaps more, he did loads of mistakes (2010).

There are so many examples of drivers doing very well in slower cars, and drivers doing not so good in quick cars that I can't believe that it is still a argument.

 

If you analyze 2017 and 2018 seasons you will see that while it was close between Ferrari & Merc we had a championship on our hands, but Ferrari chocked on both occasions on the last leg of the championship and hence the huge difference in the point tally.

I was not sugarcoating anything and not trying to defend Vettel's mistakes, I was just trying to spin the narrative around and show that no driver is ever perfect and that the driver/team/car package really matters.

 

Lewis would not have achieved his great successes without a perfect team and a perfect execution, he is a great driver and will remain so and so will Seb, you cannot just wipe out his over 50 wins and 4 WDC titles and I get sick when seeing people putting that performance (in Seb's case) solely on the car while ignoring the same was true for Lewis.

 

Mercedes enjoyed a much greater level of dominance than even RedBull had so let's just be reasonable and apply the same standards of judgement otherwise we are just throwing rocks in the pound just to make a splash... 

I don't get the fixation of some posters here to declare and crown which driver is best based on circumstantial evidence and contrived arguments.

 

You won't see me state that X is better than Y because there is no value in comparing drivers from different teams, driving different cars and in vastly different backgrounds.

I just want to draw to your attention that such kind of comparisons are by definition flawed and artificial.

 

We have seen both Seb & Hamilton win in dominant cars, and we have seen none of them win a title when they didn't have the best package and this is actually in line with one would expect, in a discipline which is not an individual sport.


Edited by Unicast, 08 December 2019 - 22:45.


#7766 Unicast

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 15:00

Vettel needs a high rake car, Mercedes has by far the lowest rake in the field for the sixth year running. He would be indeed a different driver at Mercedes, but not in a good way.

 

So you are Vettel's race engineer and know exactly what he needs to win, this is an outlandishly superficial statement to make man.

You do realize Seb didn't just teleport in F1 and managed to win races and titles without a specific type of car... he had quite a long and difficult career, streching from his karting days, and then climbing the ladder in all sorts of junior formulas etc...

Do you really think RedBull invested in him just because he was only good driving a certain type of car?

I mean speaking about making silly statements... he was obviously a big talent and this is why he gained the thrust and support of RedBull, and then went on to achieve great things wherever he raced.

I won't go so far and say you are slandering his legacy and reputation by your over simplistic thinking but I think you should keep it in the back of your mind that you are talking about a 4th time WDC and a proven 50+ race winner.

Surely you cannot attribute all this success only to "high rake" cars right?


Edited by Unicast, 08 December 2019 - 22:48.


#7767 Requiem84

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 15:04

Vettel needs a high rake car, Mercedes has by far the lowest rake in the field for the sixth year running. He would be indeed a different driver at Mercedes, but not in a good way.


Vettel is strong if the rear is good, specifically on entry.

Merc has the besst rear this year (albeit more so on the exit of medium/slow corners). Hence their strong Abu Dhabi pace.

I dont think rake is the only way to get a strong rear..

#7768 MikeV1987

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 15:23

For me, the low torque of the V8s suited his driving style better than the V6s have. No driver wants a car with a finicky rear end.

#7769 Requiem84

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 15:27

For me, the low torque of the V8s suited his driving style better than the V6s have. No driver wants a car with a finicky rear end.


The power curves are very smooth now based on the comments from new drivers who try F1 cars.

#7770 Marklar

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 15:30

Vettel is strong if the rear is good, specifically on entry.

Merc has the besst rear this year (albeit more so on the exit of medium/slow corners). Hence their strong Abu Dhabi pace.

I dont think rake is the only way to get a strong rear..

It's not the only way, but it's the easiest way, and since Mercedes is commmitted for whatever reason to run always low rake you need many other things to work in your way to guarantee rear stability, which may work sometimes, but most of the time it wont.

Case in point: Until they introduced their upgraded car during the 2nd test week rear instability was a frequent complain at Mercedes - over the full six years. And even this season it's as you say more the exit where the rear behaves well.

 

Sort of the opposite happened at Red Bull, their cars always have amazing rear stability, largely due to to the high rake, just this year somehow it went the other way, probably because they couldnt find the right balance for the front wing rule changes, which is probably why everyone but Verstappen looks like a dog in there.


Edited by Marklar, 08 December 2019 - 15:31.


#7771 MikeV1987

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 15:35

The power curves are very smooth now based on the comments from new drivers who try F1 cars.

They have over double the torque than they had in the V8 era.



#7772 1Devil1

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 15:35

Vettel needs a high rake car, Mercedes has by far the lowest rake in the field for the sixth year running. He would be indeed a different driver at Mercedes, but not in a good way.

 

Come on you suggest Vettel would be further off than Rosberg? I guess Lewis job would have been much harder with Vettel along side. Rosberg had the qualifying pace, but his race pace was quit awful a lot of times. 



#7773 Requiem84

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 15:40

It's not the only way, but it's the easiest way, and since Mercedes is commmitted for whatever reason to run always low rake you need many other things to work in your way to guarantee rear stability, which may work sometimes, but most of the time it wont.

Case in point: Until they introduced their upgraded car during the 2nd test week rear instability was a frequent complain at Mercedes - over the full six years. And even this season it's as you say more the exit where the rear behaves well.

Sort of the opposite happened at Red Bull, their cars always have amazing rear stability, largely due to to the high rake, just this year somehow it went the other way, probably because they couldnt find the right balance for the front wing rule changes, which is probably why everyone but Verstappen looks like a dog in there.


Difficulty with the high rake is that if you get it (slightly) wrong, you get mega unpredictability at the rear -> RB beginning of the year.

Imo Merc’s approach is a bit better under the new fw rules. It’s also why Bottas can Hamilton so close, the car is ‘easy’ to drive. I think it would suit Vettel.

I guess Merc runs a bit more rw (easy, but dirty df) and Merc did something smart mechanically this year of which we heard way too little as all attention has been on Ferrari’s PU! (Anotger masterstroke of Toto? 😉)

#7774 ARTGP

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 15:45

It's not the only way, but it's the easiest way, and since Mercedes is commmitted for whatever reason to run always low rake you need many other things to work in your way to guarantee rear stability, which may work sometimes, but most of the time it wont.

Case in point: Until they introduced their upgraded car during the 2nd test week rear instability was a frequent complain at Mercedes - over the full six years. And even this season it's as you say more the exit where the rear behaves well.

 

Sort of the opposite happened at Red Bull, their cars always have amazing rear stability, largely due to to the high rake, just this year somehow it went the other way, probably because they couldnt find the right balance for the front wing rule changes, which is probably why everyone but Verstappen looks like a dog in there.

 

 

High rake doesn't guarantee rear stability...and it's not "easy", ask Renault who have the highest rake of anyone this season. Heck even ask Red Bull who couldn't get the rear aero working with the new front wings in the beginning of the season.

 

High rake means you need even more flow management from the front wing to prevent dirty air from the tire getting sucked in from mid floor and into the diffuser (destroying it's performance). This was actually the problem that Ferrari addressed with the infamous Singapore GP update, which brought Vettel back into play.

 

Merc is more stable at the rear because they have the longest wheel base. The long wheel base contributes from a vehicle dynamics perspective and an aerodynamics perspective. Long wheel base more stability, at low speed (although leads to more low speed understeer (which Hamilton has complained about), and long wheel base means you can use a larger floor. Every square inch of floor area is rear downforce.

 

Vettel probably would be better in the Merc than the Ferrari.

 

To give a qualitative idea. Gasly thought the RB was massively unstable.  And he thought the Toro Ross was very stable (albeit much slower). Well turns out the Red Bull has the shortest wheelbase on the grid. And the Toro Ross practically tied with Mercedes for the longest wheelbase.


Edited by ARTGP, 08 December 2019 - 15:59.


#7775 Marklar

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 15:59

Difficulty with the high rake is that if you get it (slightly) wrong, you get mega unpredictability at the rear -> RB beginning of the year.

Imo Merc’s approach is a bit better under the new fw rules. It’s also why Bottas can Hamilton so close, the car is ‘easy’ to drive. I think it would suit Vettel.

I guess Merc runs a bit more rw (easy, but dirty df) and Merc did something smart mechanically this year of which we heard way too little as all attention has been on Ferrari’s PU! (Anotger masterstroke of Toto? 😉)

Ironically Bottas handled it better than Hamilton when the car was a pure nightmare to drive in early 2017 though :p

I'm not sure about the current rules, I do think Mercedes approach is better, but I'm not sure about this specific bit, after all it's been only a year and under braking Red Bull is probably still the best (with Max at least) and McLaren looks very stable while running high rake too, for example. Though there will be new rules in 2021 and those could actually suit Vettel. Until then I dont really see where Vettel could have a easier time, as we've seen with Ferrari car upgrades alone can change the way the car behaves for the driver.

Interestingly enough Mark Hughes thinks that Red Bull would be the car that would have suited Vettel this year, which sounds strange with their issues this year.

#7776 Marklar

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 16:47

High rake doesn't guarantee rear stability...and it's not "easy", ask Renault who have the highest rake of anyone this season. Heck even ask Red Bull who couldn't get the rear aero working with the new front wings in the beginning of the season.

High rake means you need even more flow management from the front wing to prevent dirty air from the tire getting sucked in from mid floor and into the diffuser (destroying it's performance). This was actually the problem that Ferrari addressed with the infamous Singapore GP update, which brought Vettel back into play.

Merc is more stable at the rear because they have the longest wheel base. The long wheel base contributes from a vehicle dynamics perspective and an aerodynamics perspective. Long wheel base more stability, at low speed (although leads to more low speed understeer (which Hamilton has complained about), and long wheel base means you can use a larger floor. Every square inch of floor area is rear downforce.

Vettel probably would be better in the Merc than the Ferrari.

To give a qualitative idea. Gasly thought the RB was massively unstable. And he thought the Toro Ross was very stable (albeit much slower). Well turns out the Red Bull has the shortest wheelbase on the grid. And the Toro Ross practically tied with Mercedes for the longest wheelbase.

That's simplefying it as much though. Renault has a long wheelbase too, but a unstable car. Ferrari went onto a longer wheelbase in 2018 and it appeared to suit Vettel less. McLaren's wheelbase is even shorter than Ferrari's but very stable. And so on.

My point is just that Vettel's best performances came on high rake cars (and short wheelbases) too, which is what his Ferrari is and Mercedes isn't. Obviously things are much more complicated than this, but considering that Mercedes struggled with rear instability until this year and even this year isnt even that strong on entries I have my doubts that it would change anything for him, let alone "turn him into a different driver". With the current rules that's impossible anyways.

#7777 HPT

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 21:48

You won't see me state that X is better than Y because there is no value in comparing drivers from different teams, driving different cars and in vastly different backgrounds.
I just want to draw to your attention that such kind of comparisons are by definition flawed and artificial.


So by your logic you can’t say Lewis is a better driver than Maldonado?

Save for the most diehard of Vettel fans, everyone would put Hamilton as the better driver of the two.

#7778 shure

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 22:18

Anyone disputing Hamilton's level of talent in a 'non dominating' or just plain inferior package quite frankly needs a history lesson. He had a period in 2011 that was somewhat 'off colour' in terms of results and, even then, he was still outright faster than Jenson Button most of the time. One might point to 2016 as a chink in the armour - still more poles and wins that season than Rosberg.

He's rarely had an average period. And his high points have been very regular and quite frankly phenomenal.

Depends what you mean by disputing Hamilton's level of talent.  For some ranking him among the best is enough, while for others nothing other than top spot is acceptable.

 

And between 2008 and 2014 he was never voted Driver of the Year at the Autosport Awards, for example.  Not that I'm saying they are the gospel, mind, but it shows that there was certainly no unanimous vote on his superiority before he had the out and out best car.  People often find it hard to separate car and driver.  So did he suddenly get better once he got the best car?  Or are his performances, and therefore perception, helped by it?  



#7779 ARTGP

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 22:48

That's simplefying it as much though. Renault has a long wheelbase too, but a unstable car. Ferrari went onto a longer wheelbase in 2018 and it appeared to suit Vettel less. McLaren's wheelbase is even shorter than Ferrari's but very stable. And so on.

My point is just that Vettel's best performances came on high rake cars (and short wheelbases) too, which is what his Ferrari is and Mercedes isn't. Obviously things are much more complicated than this, but considering that Mercedes struggled with rear instability until this year and even this year isnt even that strong on entries I have my doubts that it would change anything for him, let alone "turn him into a different driver". With the current rules that's impossible anyways.

 

 

Your mixing up the concepts.

 

Renault and Ferrari have relatively longer wheelbases than RB or last year, but they are high rake cars.The floor sealing is their issue in both teams. Hence, instability.

 

Long wheelbase and high rake is the toughest kind of floor to seal aerodynamically. It just has to do with the height of the floor at the rear of the car. The higher it is, the more powerful your "sealing" solutions need to be.


Edited by ARTGP, 08 December 2019 - 23:05.


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#7780 Unicast

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 22:52

So by your logic you can’t say Lewis is a better driver than Maldonado?

Save for the most diehard of Vettel fans, everyone would put Hamilton as the better driver of the two.

 

You're very funny... but I am amazed how you could not deduce, on your own, that I was obviously speaking about top rated drivers... 

It should have been obvious even for you friend  :p



#7781 ForzaFormula

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 23:02

Hamilton likes a loose rear and is very adaptable in his driving ability and also changes his style to suit the more stable side but generally he prefers more of an oversteer setup that allot of drivers such as vettel cannot drive well, he’s got much more adaptable ability to adjust to a cars style than vettel but also keep his speed even with a more stability adapted car, also since 2017 the ferrari has often had a more stable rear than merc but generally one that has more general turn in and more nimble. I think vettel would struggle to beat bottas in the merc as i doubt it would fit his driving style any better than the ferrari, if anything he would struggle more, and Hamilton if anything would love the way the ferrari drives in general and would of been getting much more out of it the past years.

#7782 HPT

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 01:33

You're very funny... but I am amazed how you could not deduce, on your own, that I was obviously speaking about top rated drivers...
It should have been obvious even for you friend :p


Aww...are we resorting to condescension now? Haha...it’s ok. Happens when one has no good argument. So your point is invalid then. Got it 😉

PS. ‘Even for you’ would work if you knew me personally or have observed a pattern in me which shows I’m a little slow on comprehension. Since I’m pretty sure you don’t and you haven’t, then it’s as silly as me saying stuff like ‘hey Unicast, you’ve been here for about a year and over 1,300 posts already? Man you sure need to get a life. Or a girl. Possibly both.’ 😎

#7783 CoolBreeze

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 10:44

I don't understand why we talk about the sportsmen in F1 in total isolation to athletes in many other disclipines.

 

Top athletes in other disclipines decline and make more mistakes as they age ( *cough Roger Federer cough*). It's human nature to an extent. Yes, mistakes suck, but we shouldn't be thinking that athletes become more and more perfect as they age...and therefore Vettel is the anomaly. Because that's not the case in any other sport.  Actually Lewis is the anomaly because he's getting older, but not making mistakes.

 

20-30 seems to be where the peak is physically. Beyond 30's men should be declining physically due to lower testosterone levels. Every person is unique, but generally decline starts in 30's.

 

Sorry mate, you post doesn't make any sense. Ronaldo and Messi are both heading towards the twilight of their careers, yet they seem so fresh and mistakes don't seem to be in their dictionary. 

 

You make Lewis sound like a God. Put him in a normal car and you will see the mistakes. The Merc is a work of art, Lewis probably hardly pushed the last 2-3 years for him to  make a mistake. 



#7784 Unicast

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 15:22

Aww...are we resorting to condescension now? Haha...it’s ok. Happens when one has no good argument. So your point is invalid then. Got it

PS. ‘Even for you’ would work if you knew me personally or have observed a pattern in me which shows I’m a little slow on comprehension. Since I’m pretty sure you don’t and you haven’t, then it’s as silly as me saying stuff like ‘hey Unicast, you’ve been here for about a year and over 1,300 posts already? Man you sure need to get a life. Or a girl. Possibly both.’

 

Look, I don't think your post brought up anything relevant to my exchange with Marklar, you either voluntarily misrepresented the context of the discussion or failed to understand it to begin with.

We were speaking about Vettel and Hamilton and then you though it would be relevant to bring up Maldonado into the discussion!!! I still wonder why?... 

Yes, I get that you consider Hamilton to be the better driver, and maybe he is, but it's still a difficult statement to make because there is no consistent baseline for that comparison (they never drove for the same team so it's impossible to know and they are both multiple WC's and with a proven winning record so why even go in that direction?)

I won't even go into the personal comments about my personal life, it's just ironic that you are resorting to those statements, after accusing me of bringing no good arguments to the debate!

A bit disingenuous on your part, don't you think so?

But please don't take it personally, and if I sounded patronizing in my statement please accept my apology.

I really want to keep it nice, clean & civilized beyond all else... I was just a bit pissed off because the Maldonado analogy made no sense in the spirit of the original discussion.


Edited by Unicast, 09 December 2019 - 15:44.


#7785 Flyhigh

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 19:23

Sorry mate, you post doesn't make any sense. Ronaldo and Messi are both heading towards the twilight of their careers, yet they seem so fresh and mistakes don't seem to be in their dictionary. 

 

You make Lewis sound like a God. Put him in a normal car and you will see the mistakes. The Merc is a work of art, Lewis probably hardly pushed the last 2-3 years for him to  make a mistake. 

Oh my god, can we just drop Lewis from this conversation, he doesn´t have anything to do with Vettel or Leclerc, he is on another complete different league, as I said before this comparison at this point is just straight up blasphemy lol "Normal car" as if his brilliant career started at Mercedes, Lewis drove quite some normal cars, until 2014 he never had an outstanding cars, at best cars that were close to being at the top, and you look at those years highlights they are full of brilliant races, recoveries, passing, race crafts. speed, poles.... Lewis impressed me much more before he even joined Mercedes. 2008 alone, he had more brilliant races as far as passings, defensive skills, race craft, rain skills than Vettel whole career and that is just one year.  


Edited by Flyhigh, 09 December 2019 - 19:30.


#7786 thefinalapex

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 22:46

Oh my god, can we just drop Lewis from this conversation, he doesn´t have anything to do with Vettel or Leclerc, he is on another complete different league, as I said before this comparison at this point is just straight up blasphemy lol "Normal car" as if his brilliant career started at Mercedes, Lewis drove quite some normal cars, until 2014 he never had an outstanding cars, at best cars that were close to being at the top, and you look at those years highlights they are full of brilliant races, recoveries, passing, race crafts. speed, poles.... Lewis impressed me much more before he even joined Mercedes. 2008 alone, he had more brilliant races as far as passings, defensive skills, race craft, rain skills than Vettel whole career and that is just one year.


The 07,08 and ‘12 where quite outstanding cars imo. Its not like he was driving a force india then wasn’t it? If you said lewis his 2007 i could understand your point some what but 2008? He was hardly impressive that year.

#7787 baddog

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 23:26

Oh my god, can we just drop Lewis from this conversation, he doesn´t have anything to do with Vettel or Leclerc

 

 

The topic is tightly limited to the two Ferrari drivers NOW is it? Where were you when that Flyhigh guy needed telling to get back on topic through the entire thread. Oh wait.



#7788 lightstoflag

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 03:55

The 07,08 and ‘12 where quite outstanding cars imo. Its not like he was driving a force india then wasn’t it? If you said lewis his 2007 i could understand your point some what but 2008? He was hardly impressive that year.

The 2007 and 2008 cars were very good, and the 2012 one was something less than that, simply because its reliability was bad. The 2005 McLaren was better than it because, while it was even more unreliable, it had class leading pace at a dozen tracks it seemed, and the margins of superiority were large, whereas the MP4-27 had class leading pace at 8 or so tracks and the margins of superiority were much smaller.

 

Also, while Hamilton's 2008 season was messy, there was plenty in it to impress. Germany and Britain were better drives than Max's Austria or Brazil from this year.



#7789 CoolBreeze

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 16:40

Oh my god, can we just drop Lewis from this conversation, he doesn´t have anything to do with Vettel or Leclerc, he is on another complete different league, as I said before this comparison at this point is just straight up blasphemy lol "Normal car" as if his brilliant career started at Mercedes, Lewis drove quite some normal cars, until 2014 he never had an outstanding cars, at best cars that were close to being at the top, and you look at those years highlights they are full of brilliant races, recoveries, passing, race crafts. speed, poles.... Lewis impressed me much more before he even joined Mercedes. 2008 alone, he had more brilliant races as far as passings, defensive skills, race craft, rain skills than Vettel whole career and that is just one year.  

 

What the hell are you talking about? I'm replying to a comment directly about Lewis and you are getting so touchy? I wasn't even commenting on your post. 



#7790 Flyhigh

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 05:27

The 07,08 and ‘12 where quite outstanding cars imo. Its not like he was driving a force india then wasn’t it? If you said lewis his 2007 i could understand your point some what but 2008? He was hardly impressive that year.

07, 08 cars were "outstading" only in the hands of Alonso an Hamilton, you mean to tell me they were equal or better to the Ferraris those years handled by Kimi/Massa? Both who got squashed soon after it.  knowing what we know today, would just be just like believing in earth flat theories. 


Edited by Flyhigh, 11 December 2019 - 05:29.


#7791 1Devil1

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 05:31

07, 08 cars were "outstading" only in the hands of Alonso an Hamilton, you mean to tell me they were equal or better to the Ferraris those years handled by Kimi/Massa? Both who got squashed soon after it.  knowing what we know today, would just be just like believing in earth flat theories. 

 

You mean the carbon copies (copy shop approved) of the Ferrari car were slower?  :D



#7792 baddog

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 05:58

07, 08 cars were "outstading" only in the hands of Alonso an Hamilton, you mean to tell me they were equal or better to the Ferraris those years handled by Kimi/Massa? Both who got squashed soon after it.  knowing what we know today, would just be just like believing in earth flat theories. 

 

Oh my god, can we just drop Lewis and Fernando from this conversation...

 

Egads.



#7793 thefinalapex

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 11:22

07, 08 cars were "outstading" only in the hands of Alonso an Hamilton, you mean to tell me they were equal or better to the Ferraris those years handled by Kimi/Massa? Both who got squashed soon after it. knowing what we know today, would just be just like believing in earth flat theories.


Kimi went backwards after the suspension change after magny cours. Massa was never the same after budapest 2009. He will never admit it. Kimi was outstandingly quick from 2001- till halfway 2008. Although the last part of 2009 he was very good as well, at Ferrari they didn’t understand that he even managed to win a race in that car. There is a great story about that part by andrea stella. The kimi that came back in 2012 wasn’t as good anymore.

#7794 RPM40

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 21:29

Kimi went backwards after the suspension change after magny cours. Massa was never the same after budapest 2009. He will never admit it. Kimi was outstandingly quick from 2001- till halfway 2008. Although the last part of 2009 he was very good as well, at Ferrari they didn’t understand that he even managed to win a race in that car. There is a great story about that part by andrea stella. The kimi that came back in 2012 wasn’t as good anymore.

This strikes me as a lot of revisionism. Massa was slower than Heidfeld, yet faster than Raikkonen over one lap.



#7795 Flyhigh

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 22:54

The topic is tightly limited to the two Ferrari drivers NOW is it? Where were you when that Flyhigh guy needed telling to get back on topic through the entire thread. Oh wait.

I don´t mind talking about other things besides the two Ferrari drivers only evidently, But specifically comparing Hamilton and Vettel is just completely silly at this and doesn´t make a lick of sense anymore. only those with Vettel´s posters still hanging in the walls, think is even comparable at this point  and keep bringing "uh, If Vettel was in Mercedes, uh"  But besides this moot point, there are several other interesting topics to discuss, and I sure love do discuss it.   


Edited by Flyhigh, 11 December 2019 - 22:56.


#7796 baddog

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 00:10

I don´t mind talking about other things besides the two Ferrari drivers only evidently, But specifically comparing Hamilton and Vettel is just completely silly at this and doesn´t make a lick of sense anymore. only those with Vettel´s posters still hanging in the walls, think is even comparable at this point  and keep bringing "uh, If Vettel was in Mercedes, uh"  But besides this moot point, there are several other interesting topics to discuss, and I sure love do discuss it.   

 

Did you read that before posting it? You just insisted that disagreeing with you is off topic.. a new degree of self-importance I think.

 

And this from me who is clear that Hamilton is a better overall package than Vettel, but come on man...



#7797 ch103

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 01:06

A young team mate has beaten Vettel, history repeating itself if you will.  Last time it happened, in 2014, he could run to Ferrari.  Now, he has no options.  LeClerc beating him next season will be the nail in the coffin for Seb.  



#7798 shure

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 08:09

A young team mate has beaten Vettel, history repeating itself if you will.  Last time it happened, in 2014, he could run to Ferrari.  Now, he has no options.  LeClerc beating him next season will be the nail in the coffin for Seb.  

I think this talk of nails in coffins is nonsense.  A rookie beat Alonso and it wasn't the nail in the coffin for him.

 

If Leclerc turns out to be better than Vettel, it will just mean that they have two very fast drivers (well, that's already the case, in fact).  Doesn't take away from what Vettel has already achieved and what he is proven to be capable of.



#7799 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 08:44

To be fair Alonso didn't have a catalogue of meltdowns and mistakes when Lewis pushed him to the brink in 2007, unlike Vettel 2017-19. Plus it was neck and neck... not something you can really claim with Vettel v Ricciardo/Leclerc. Additionally Lewis is a special case - he was phenomenal the moment he stepped into F1. Exception to the rookie rule.

You're comparing apples with oranges to make Seb come off looking better than what reality shows.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 12 December 2019 - 08:47.


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#7800 baddog

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 08:46

To be fair Alonso didn't have a catalogue of meltdowns and mistakes when Lewis pushed him to the brink in 2007. 

 

 

That should be the title of the Mclaren 2007 docudrama. And Fernando was not even close to immune.