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Ferrari 2019: Vettel vs Leclerc, Binotto vs shareholders, expectation vs reality


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#8001 1Devil1

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 10:46

Arguably charles had a pretty equal car to bottas this year yet got beat by bottas. His race craft was nothing spectacular and funny no teams care about bottas yet he landed a Mercedes seat.

 

Yeah for sure pretty equal cars :lol:, and Bottas is going from one year contract to another while Leclerc got a 5 year contract with Ferrari with a realtivly young age. 



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#8002 motorhead

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 11:01

In my opinion Bottas did well this season. I believe driving as a team mate to Hamilton would have damaged anyones reputation in these past years. 



#8003 Sunnny

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 12:56

The car was new this year too though, the new front wing rules changed the behaviour of the cars for the drivers, even if not as much as in 2014.

 

The "he is already this good, how good will he be then in X years" argument is always poor, because no driver develops in a steep curve, just ask Vettel.

As for how long it took Verstapepn to get the upper hand over Ricciardo: a few races. Despite being thrown in midway through the season he had by the end of the season the edge in qualifying (and he was from the get go as quick/quicker in races) and was the clearly quicker driver though 2017 & 2018.

I'm not a Verstappen fan, but he is clearly more proven (mostly presumably because he is also longer in F1 to be fair), the only thing that he has to still prove is if he can sustain this over years with rules changes and all that as well and if he can keep his head clean. Leclerc still lacks in essential things like race pace, which he will either develop over the time or it will turn out to be a limitation in his skillset. Nobody can say for certain.

 

 

Actually the front wing changes made little change to the handling of the car, something Vettel and other drivers agreed on. As for Max, he only got on top of DR after 2 seasons (quicker driver is not the point you have to bring the car home) unlike Leclerc who got on top of Vettel from race 1. And don't forget this was a more mature and experienced Vettel then the one DR beat. The question is, would Max had performed as well as Leclerc in his 2nd year against Vettel and beat him? I doubt it. Lest we forget Max was very error prone and it took him a while to get his act together unlike Leclerc who is learning and improving at a faster rate. Improving so much get 4 poles in a row getting Max rattled making him publicly accusing Ferrari of cheating. Make no mistake Leclercs summer special got Max  singing "I'm all shook up", I'm not sure if he did the Elvis dance but he knows Leclerc is the real deal, I suggest his doubter pay attention too, 

 

Come 2020 I expect Leclerc to step on Vettels neck and put him out of his misery. I already said it this year and will say it again next year Leclerc WDC 2020. Remember you read it here for the 2nd time  :wave:



#8004 Sunnny

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 13:09

I think 2020 will be the first time in Leclerc's career where he will be in the same car/team as the previous season..

 

might have a positive effect, who knows  :stoned:

 

Good point and he will only get better. The thing about Leclerc is that he is a FAST learner and studies where and want he needs to improve on for instance his defending after Max overtook in Austra he said he has learnt from it and come silverstone he put Max in his pocket until Ferrari screwed him up again  :rolleyes:



#8005 taran

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 13:31

In my opinion Bottas did well this season. I believe driving as a team mate to Hamilton would have damaged anyones reputation in these past years. 

 

I disagree. Bottas has been pretty close to Hamilton speedwise but his lack of fighting spirit has been exposed.
Bottas can win a race if he leads from the start and Hamilton can't be arsed but we have only really seen Bottas fight at Silverstone and even there he came off second best in the end because we all knew Hamilton was not going to be the slowest Mercedes at Silverstone. 

Bottas' results (fairly or unfairly) are more assigned to his superior car than anything he has done behind the wheel. Even the Bottas 2.0 remarks are now seen as just silly because it's the same old Bottas rolling over for Hamilton.

 

I actually think that if Hamilton had crushed him in qualifying (e.g. pure speed) but had more trouble with him in the races, Bottas'  reputation would be better. A Ricciardo or Leclerc would not have allowed themselves to be sacrificed like Bottas does.

 

Now, this can be down to Bottas not getting the Mercedes drive on merit but because Rosberg retired unexpectedly and he's been desperate to hang on to the seat and thus swallows anything Wolff hands out but it also shows why he will never be a champion or even highly regarded as a driver.
 



#8006 HPT

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 15:06

Bottas’ manager was...Toto Wolff

This stopped when he started driving for Mercedes


Coincided with how Bottas got the Merc seat in the first place didn’t it? Coupled with Rosberg’s very sudden and last minute exit, there were no drivers available so yes, no teams were looking at Bottas it not for his manager’s influence and a very special set of circumstances.

#8007 Marklar

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 15:13

Coincided with how Bottas got the Merc seat in the first place didn’t it? Coupled with Rosberg’s very sudden and last minute exit, there were no drivers available so yes, no teams were looking at Bottas it not for his manager’s influence and a very special set of circumstances.

Just a few months earlier Ferrari wanted him and was only blocked by Claire Williams' veto. Bottas was quite highly rated before joining Mercedes.

I'm quite sure that Bottas was always Mercedes' first choice, otherwise they would have replaced him by now. Especially considering that they passed up two young drivers, that were very expensive, for him.

Of course he is not the best driver that was available in the past 4 years, but that Wolff was his manager is not the reason why he got the seat. At that time he was the highest regarded midfield driver in general, and that's the ones you take if you dont want two established lead drivers.

Edited by Marklar, 27 December 2019 - 15:21.


#8008 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 15:18

Just a few months earlier Ferrari wanted him and was only blocked by Claire Williams' veto. Bottas was quite highly rated before joining Mercedes.

I'm quite sure that Bottas was always Mercedes' first choice, otherwise they would have replaced him by now. Especially considering that they passed up two young drivers, that were very expensive, for him.

 

To be honest, if Rosberg had hung around and the antics between him and Hamilton had continued I think Toto would've have opted to steal Bottas anyway. In retrospect I think Merc might have been down a championship or two if Rosberg had hung around and Bottas had gone somewhere like Ferrari.



#8009 Astandahl

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 15:33

Arguably charles had a pretty equal car to bottas this year yet got beat by bottas. His race craft was nothing spectacular and funny no teams care about bottas yet he landed a Mercedes seat.

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Edited by Astandahl, 27 December 2019 - 15:35.


#8010 Mauseri

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 17:05

I disagree. Bottas has been pretty close to Hamilton speedwise but his lack of fighting spirit has been exposed.
Bottas can win a race if he leads from the start and Hamilton can't be arsed but we have only really seen Bottas fight at Silverstone and even there he came off second best in the end because we all knew Hamilton was not going to be the slowest Mercedes at Silverstone.
Bottas' results (fairly or unfairly) are more assigned to his superior car than anything he has done behind the wheel. Even the Bottas 2.0 remarks are now seen as just silly because it's the same old Bottas rolling over for Hamilton.

Hamilton lucked in Silverstone with SC mainly and Bottas 2.0 improvement finished second in the championship.

#8011 thefinalapex

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 20:15

Actually the front wing changes made little change to the handling of the car, something Vettel and other drivers agreed on. As for Max, he only got on top of DR after 2 seasons (quicker driver is not the point you have to bring the car home) unlike Leclerc who got on top of Vettel from race 1. And don't forget this was a more mature and experienced Vettel then the one DR beat. The question is, would Max had performed as well as Leclerc in his 2nd year against Vettel and beat him? I doubt it. Lest we forget Max was very error prone and it took him a while to get his act together unlike Leclerc who is learning and improving at a faster rate. Improving so much get 4 poles in a row getting Max rattled making him publicly accusing Ferrari of cheating. Make no mistake Leclercs summer special got Max  singing "I'm all shook up", I'm not sure if he did the Elvis dance but he knows Leclerc is the real deal, I suggest his doubter pay attention too, 

 

Come 2020 I expect Leclerc to step on Vettels neck and put him out of his misery. I already said it this year and will say it again next year Leclerc WDC 2020. Remember you read it here for the 2nd time  :wave:

 

I think i just found the president of the Charles Leclerc Fanclub.



#8012 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 20:25

To be honest, if Rosberg had hung around and the antics between him and Hamilton had continued I think Toto would've have opted to steal Bottas anyway. In retrospect I think Merc might have been down a championship or two if Rosberg had hung around and Bottas had gone somewhere like Ferrari.

Even more so had Rosberg made the move to Ferrari. None of us seem to question his pace nor dependability. Both he and Bottas would have taken wins off Vettel and closest the ranks better than Kimi. Whether Bottas by himself would have gotten Ferrari a WCC, I don't know. With a lesser teammate than Vettel, he just might have taken a good shot at the WDC. For Rosberg, I don't really doubt he'd have done much much better than Vettel and might well have taken another WDC. With Vettel a close #2, that would wrap up the WCC as well.



#8013 Anuity

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 22:22

It’s all just speculation. They are professional drivers, but in the end are humans. We cannot know how Rosberg / Bottas. / Kimi would perform in different teams.
I rate Rosberg highly, but I think he found an extra bit and became even stronger having to face an absolute monster in Lewis. Would he be the same in Ferrari? We don’t know. Same with each other driver. I personally think (or better word dream) that Raikkonen would do better than Bottas in Mercedes , just because I think he would suit better there than in Ferrari.
Likewise I don’t see Bottas posing any troubles for Vettel. And thinking he would be fighting for championship in the red car in those years... we’ll, I think it’s wishful thinking to say the least. But we will never know.
I’m really excited about 2020 Leclerc vs Vettel, it’s the most thrilling pairing of the grid no doubts.

Edited by Anuity, 27 December 2019 - 22:23.


#8014 Sid04

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 07:58

Arguably charles had a pretty equal car to bottas this year yet got beat by bottas. His race craft was nothing spectacular and funny no teams care about bottas yet he landed a Mercedes seat. 🥴🎅


Definitely must be so equal that one team has almost 50% more points than the other...if Ferrari manages to win a couple of races or get some poles it becomes defacto best car for most here..

#8015 ForzaFormula

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 08:02

Definitely must be so equal that one team has almost 50% more points than the other...if Ferrari manages to win a couple of races or get some poles it becomes defacto best car for most here..


Drivers can make a difference often a big one, Ferrari at least had the car to be allot closer, let’s not talk about the power unit advantage either eh.

#8016 Sid04

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 08:10

Even more so had Rosberg made the move to Ferrari. None of us seem to question his pace nor dependability. Both he and Bottas would have taken wins off Vettel and closest the ranks better than Kimi. Whether Bottas by himself would have gotten Ferrari a WCC, I don't know. With a lesser teammate than Vettel, he just might have taken a good shot at the WDC. For Rosberg, I don't really doubt he'd have done much much better than Vettel and might well have taken another WDC. With Vettel a close #2, that would wrap up the WCC as well.


Bottas had a very good car in 2014 maybe better or probably a car similar to one of red Bull in terms of pace but he could not stand out like Daniel did that season..that car definitely had 1-2 wins in special circumstances..
He lacks bit of race pace and definitely that aggressiveness against probably the top 5 drivers out there..

#8017 Sid04

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 08:16

Drivers can make a difference often a big one, Ferrari at least had the car to be allot closer, let’s not talk about the power unit advantage either eh.


Why does that power unit advantage disappear in places like Abu Dhabi and in race trim most of the time?..
Where did rest of the Ferrari powered cars finish in WDC standings with all that power unit advantage?
Just because a car has a lower downforce and high top speed design does not make the engine a rocketship..this power unit advantage is blown out of proportion.. Mercedes had so much downforce that it looked slower than bulls at times in a straight line..but it was a beast in races due to that downforce..Ferrari was only dependent on mechanical grip from tyres and that is why would eat it's tyres in races much quicker than both other cars..
All in all Merc were still more balanced cars overall and let's not compare the race operations of Merc and Ferrari..

#8018 1Devil1

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 09:36

Drivers can make a difference often a big one, Ferrari at least had the car to be allot closer, let’s not talk about the power unit advantage either eh.

 

Yeah not someone like Bottas. solid driver nothing more. 



#8019 baddog

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 10:29

Drivers can make a difference often a big one, Ferrari at least had the car to be allot closer, let’s not talk about the power unit advantage either eh.

 

Wholly circular argument. Drivers are **** because they didn't win other than occasionally even though the car is great because even **** drivers won occasionally, imagine what good drivers could have done. 



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#8020 ForzaFormula

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 13:53

Place is sounding more and more like planetf1 so many defensive bitter people responding aggressively cause they are over the top and in denial about their drivers and team under performing, when they clearly had a car that could have done more.

Edited by ForzaFormula, 28 December 2019 - 13:53.


#8021 Flyhigh

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 16:15

Hamilton would make anyone on the grid look bad right now aside from maybe Verstappen. He just has the whole package along side experience. In my view, you put Bottas along side Leclerc and there is a good chance Bottas beat him, 60% chance, due to experience.  



#8022 Victor

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 17:05

Arguably charles had a pretty equal car to bottas this year yet got beat by bottas. His race craft was nothing spectacular and funny no teams care about bottas yet he landed a Mercedes seat.

You are joking, right? :rolleyes:



#8023 MikeV1987

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 17:30

Place is sounding more and more like planetf1 so many defensive bitter people responding aggressively cause they are over the top and in denial about their drivers and team under performing, when they clearly had a car that could have done more.

 

Saying Leclerc arguably had a pretty equal car to Bottas is very pf1-ish.



#8024 1Devil1

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 18:07

Place is sounding more and more like planetf1 so many defensive bitter people responding aggressively cause they are over the top and in denial about their drivers and team under performing, when they clearly had a car that could have done more.

 

Has nothing to do with being in denial. Something I ask myself if people really watch the races. Even the strongest Lewis/Mercedes fan would admit they had the best car by quit a margin and claiming Ferrari was equal best ist just BS.



#8025 ForzaFormula

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 20:04

Hamilton would make anyone on the grid look bad right now aside from maybe Verstappen. He just has the whole package along side experience. In my view, you put Bottas along side Leclerc and there is a good chance Bottas beat him, 60% chance, due to experience.


Exactly,

#8026 shure

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 23:35

Hamilton would make anyone on the grid look bad right now aside from maybe Verstappen. He just has the whole package along side experience. In my view, you put Bottas along side Leclerc and there is a good chance Bottas beat him, 60% chance, due to experience.  

I'm not convinced of that.  Take away the Mercedes and while Hamilton would still be good I think his aura of invincibility would definitely suffer.



#8027 thefinalapex

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 00:27

I'm not convinced of that. Take away the Mercedes and while Hamilton would still be good I think his aura of invincibility would definitely suffer.


Yep. Hamilton is great no doubt but he is not undefeatable.

#8028 gillesfan76

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 00:36

I'm not convinced of that.  Take away the Mercedes and while Hamilton would still be good I think his aura of invincibility would definitely suffer.

 

I agree with you but in the same vein, take away Hamilton and while Mercedes will still be good, I think its aura of invincibility in 2017 - 2019 would definitely suffer.



#8029 GTA

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 02:39

I agree with you but in the same vein, take away Hamilton and while Mercedes will still be good, I think its aura of invincibility in 2017 - 2019 would definitely suffer.

 

When Nico Rosberg announced his retirement in 2016, it became clear that Lewis was going to enjoy a trouble free run to top the record books. 



#8030 GTA

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 02:48

I don't know why people are hating/skeptical of Charles. He has done nothing but consistently improve since 2018 Australia. 

 

When a driver's improvement is clearly visible, it shows he has a ton of potential. His qualifying and tyre management improved dramatically in the 2nd half of the season . Also his defensive ability grew after that Austria incident. Sure he isn't a finished product and has flaws but he is ironing them out. He has gambled on a 5 year Ferrari contract when he knows the deficiencies of the team , something that Fernando and Seb were not able to fix. He has time on his side and who knows he might turn Ferrari around like MSC. 

 

All I know is that if the performance levels with Merc are 2018ish , I would be more optimistic as a Ferrari fan with Charles battling Lewis. 



#8031 Boxerevo

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 03:20

What aura of invicibility you guys are smoking on?

 

Where this invicibility were preached those years that i didn't see?

 

How is it possible with Ham 2 x 1 Button and Ham 3 x 1 Rosberg? Invicibility is a absurdity, no one could defend it.

 

Hamilton as overall strongest formula 1 driver since some years is very plausible but the above, what you guys are smoking on.

 

Anyway, good happy new year for all of us.


Edited by Boxerevo, 29 December 2019 - 03:24.


#8032 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 03:30

When Nico Rosberg announced his retirement in 2016, it became clear that Lewis was going to enjoy a trouble free run to top the record books. 

And Rosberg basically said that it would have been similar records, just more trouble. He was not going to find the strength to beat him again.



#8033 1Devil1

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:17

What aura of invicibility you guys are smoking on?

 

Where this invicibility were preached those years that i didn't see?

 

How is it possible with Ham 2 x 1 Button and Ham 3 x 1 Rosberg? Invicibility is a absurdity, no one could defend it.

 

Hamilton as overall strongest formula 1 driver since some years is very plausible but the above, what you guys are smoking on.

 

Anyway, good happy new year for all of us.

 

Don't know why the disccusion went from Leclerc should have done better to the status of Lewis. Nobody will deny he is the best driver of the last years with very strong seasons in 2018 and 2017. But I don't see why people feel the need to transform Bottas to some kind of super driver when he is clearly a second tier driver like Barrichello. It worked for Ferrari with Schumacher and it worked for Mercedes. Good enough to pick up the pieces and good enough to drive as wingman when needed. To claim Ferrari was equal to Mercedes this year comes from a dream land, and has nothing to be with being a Ferrari, Vettel, Leclerc or Lewis fan, it's just a stupid claim, and so extreme I ask myself if people really follow the sport at all. 



#8034 baddog

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:34

Don't know why the disccusion went from Leclerc should have done better to the status of Lewis. Nobody will deny he is the best driver of the last years with very strong seasons in 2018 and 2017. But I don't see why people feel the need to transform Bottas to some kind of super driver when he is clearly a second tier driver like Barrichello. It worked for Ferrari with Schumacher and it worked for Mercedes. Good enough to pick up the pieces and good enough to drive as wingman when needed. To claim Ferrari was equal to Mercedes this year comes from a dream land, and has nothing to be with being a Ferrari, Vettel, Leclerc or Lewis fan, it's just a stupid claim, and so extreme I ask myself if people really follow the sport at all. 

 

Bottas is a lot faster in comparison to Lewis than Rubens was to Michael though. A LOT faster.



#8035 1Devil1

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:43

Bottas is a lot faster in comparison to Lewis than Rubens was to Michael though. A LOT faster.

Different topic, OT. but yeah, his team mates were a lot closer than it was with Schumacher. 2016 would have never happened in Schumacher's prime even when he would have three more DNF than Rosberg. But we know it was all down to preferential treatment. Just to cut down the discussion   ;)



#8036 baddog

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 11:32

Different topic, OT. but yeah, his team mates were a lot closer than it was with Schumacher. 2016 would have never happened in Schumacher's prime even when he would have three more DNF than Rosberg. But we know it was all down to preferential treatment. Just to cut down the discussion   ;)

 

lol better just to leave that alone I guess.



#8037 Hela

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 11:51

Leclerc is certainly good and earned his stripes. Not sure he is at Max level just yet but that maybe due to the amount of experience Max has had. Leclerc will certainly get better and I hope for Vettels sake he can bring it Leclerc and find a way to bring his A game if not am afraid he is toast.

On the other hand i keep seeing the Leclerc and Max adulation for the future but am not so sure they will both have it their way.

I think Russell is an unknown quantity and could well be a threat to them. Lando a bit less so (Not totally sold on Lando) but i will put Sainz in that category along with russell as those who could threaten Leclerc and Max for future wdc

Edited by Hela, 29 December 2019 - 11:53.


#8038 Marklar

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 12:10

Leclerc is certainly good and earned his stripes. Not sure he is at Max level just yet but that maybe due to the amount of experience Max has had. Leclerc will certainly get better and I hope for Vettels sake he can bring it Leclerc and find a way to bring his A game if not am afraid he is toast.

On the other hand i keep seeing the Leclerc and Max adulation for the future but am not so sure they will both have it their way.

I think Russell is an unknown quantity and could well be a threat to them. Lando a bit less so (Not totally sold on Lando) but i will put Sainz in that category along with russell as those who could threaten Leclerc and Max for future wdc

Verstappen looks like one of those once in a lifetime talents. That much is clear after 5 years, the future will tell whether the below mentioned drivers are on that level or not. Or whether he will prove his potential.

Leclerc and Russell look very special based on junior careers,even if not as much. And Russell is less proven in F1 (had less chances to). Norris looked like the real deal until he entered F2, whether he really will be? Time will tell.

Sainz smells like a Rosberg to me: good driver, but will lack that extra bit to win titles on merit. It can change of course, but after 5 years you can tell how much potential a driver has at least most of the time.

Edited by Marklar, 29 December 2019 - 12:13.


#8039 shure

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 13:23

Bottas is a lot faster in comparison to Lewis than Rubens was to Michael though. A LOT faster.

Bottas faster than Rubens?  Or Schumacher faster than Lewis?  ;)

 

Joking aside, I think such comparisons are all but impossible to make.  The racing is completely different now and a lot of the time drivers aren't going all out.  Component management is far more prominent now especially since they have to make them last for multiple races.



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#8040 BRG

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 16:41

Verstappen looks like one of those once in a lifetime talents. That much is clear after 5 years

 

Once in a lifetime talent?  You mean like Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Senna, Schumacher and HAmilton?  That's a lot of lifetimes.  WHat is clear is that they had all won the WDC in five years (except Prost who was a little slow out of the blocks) unlike Max.



#8041 shure

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 18:42

Once in a lifetime talent?  You mean like Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Senna, Schumacher and HAmilton?  That's a lot of lifetimes.  WHat is clear is that they had all won the WDC in five years (except Prost who was a little slow out of the blocks) unlike Max.

That's an irrelevant statistic, to be fair.  Things have changed a lot and Max hasn't had any opportunity to win a title no matter how good he is.  



#8042 Flyhigh

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 19:00

I don't know why people are hating/skeptical of Charles. He has done nothing but consistently improve since 2018 Australia. 

 

When a driver's improvement is clearly visible, it shows he has a ton of potential. His qualifying and tyre management improved dramatically in the 2nd half of the season . Also his defensive ability grew after that Austria incident. Sure he isn't a finished product and has flaws but he is ironing them out. He has gambled on a 5 year Ferrari contract when he knows the deficiencies of the team , something that Fernando and Seb were not able to fix. He has time on his side and who knows he might turn Ferrari around like MSC. 

 

All I know is that if the performance levels with Merc are 2018ish , I would be more optimistic as a Ferrari fan with Charles battling Lewis. 


I don´t see anyone hating or being skeptical of Charles, I just believe that Ferrari should not repeat the same mistake and putt all the eggs on his basket. Beating Vettel is not necessarily rare or sign of greatness, Ricciardo beat him even more convincingly than Charles did now. There is a good chance that Charles is indeed great, world champion material, but I would still put another top tier driver along side him, hungry for achievements such as Ricciardo...that´s all.  Getting Hamilton though would be ideal. 



#8043 BRG

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 19:46

That's an irrelevant statistic, to be fair.  Things have changed a lot and Max hasn't had any opportunity to win a title no matter how good he is.  

Nothing irrelevant about it at all.  Verstappen was described as a 'once in a lifetime talent'.  He isn't.  Nor were those others, galacticos though they were/are.  



#8044 Marklar

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 19:54

Once in a lifetime talent? You mean like Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Senna, Schumacher and HAmilton? That's a lot of lifetimes. WHat is clear is that they had all won the WDC in five years (except Prost who was a little slow out of the blocks) unlike Max.

Why are you omitting the part where I say that the future will tell whether he can prove that?

as for your argument: that *is* irrelevant. He didnt had the cars yet.

Btw, Prost won his first title in his 6th season - if you are already going down the random stats route.

Edited by Marklar, 29 December 2019 - 19:55.


#8045 BRG

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 20:09

Btw, Prost won his first title in his 6th season - if you are already going down the random stats route.

I know, that's why I said that he was slow out of the blocks.  But as Verstappen isn't going to be WDC in his 6th season, it remains irrelevant.

 

And you said that it was clear that Verstappen is a once in a lifetime talent.  You didn't say that the future might prove him to be one, you were stating that he already is one.  Despite not having the cars apparently.  



#8046 shure

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 21:42

Nothing irrelevant about it at all.  Verstappen was described as a 'once in a lifetime talent'.  He isn't.  Nor were those others, galacticos though they were/are.  

It's completely irrelevant.  Winning titles is impossible without the right equipment and Max hasn't had an opportunity to get that equipment yet.  So whatever anyone else has done in the past in that respect is irrelevant since circumstances won't be the same for any of them.

 

And you're getting needlessly picky on the "once in a lifetime" thing.  I suspect most people knew what was meant by it



#8047 baddog

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 23:32

Max is truly gifted and this year at last looked mature. There is still room for him to achieve no WDCs though, depends on the car but also on how he uses it. To call him a talent inherently superior to those around him is at this point excessive I think, there is no reference point to say he is fundamentally faster or better than the guys in the other top teams.



#8048 ForzaFormula

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 23:56

It's completely irrelevant. Winning titles is impossible without the right equipment and Max hasn't had an opportunity to get that equipment yet. So whatever anyone else has done in the past in that respect is irrelevant since circumstances won't be the same for any of them.

And you're getting needlessly picky on the "once in a lifetime" thing. I suspect most people knew what was meant by it

Max needs to be in a title fight win titles and go against a good team mate under pressure in the fight not some average drivers like albon, to ever be considered once in a life time or even one of the best, right now he has the potential but he’s far from the finished article and has it all to prove still

Edited by ForzaFormula, 29 December 2019 - 23:57.


#8049 HPT

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 23:57

It's completely irrelevant. Winning titles is impossible without the right equipment and Max hasn't had an opportunity to get that equipment yet. So whatever anyone else has done in the past in that respect is irrelevant since circumstances won't be the same for any of them.

And you're getting needlessly picky on the "once in a lifetime" thing. I suspect most people knew what was meant by it


Perhaps it would have been more accurate if you called Max once in a generation talent.

#8050 shure

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 00:04

Max needs to be in a title fight win titles and go against a good team mate under pressure in the fight not some average drivers like albon, to ever be considered once in a life time or even one of the best, right now he has the potential but he’s far from the finished article and has it all to prove still

no I don't think so.  I think his talent his obvious to see.  We're talking about his talent, not whether he's a GOAT or anything.  I think it's pretty hard not to recognise him as a special talent (whatever ultimate label isn't really relevant, since the intent is clearly to show he's an unusual and exceptional talent).  

 

Talent doesn't have to equal finished article.  It can be potential, too.