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Ferrari 2019: Vettel vs Leclerc, Binotto vs shareholders, expectation vs reality


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#101 Massa_f1

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:05

On similar conditions, Vettel was clearly faster. Ferrari brought in Vettel too early. Leclerc had younger tires and the hardest ones

Leclerc is fast but wasn't faster than Vettel

 

How many people watching the race are going to overlook this fact though.

 

Either way the car was poor today. This car is already reminding of the 2016 car, which as we all know won nothing.



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#102 barzini

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:05

Why the hell would Charles ask the team should he stay back? :D

Just go for it and if they want you to stay back, they will tell you..

#103 HermannH

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:05

On similar conditions, Vettel was clearly faster. Ferrari brought in Vettel too early. Leclerc had younger tires and the hardest ones

Leclerc is fast but wasn't faster than Vettel

Charles did something like 15 more laps in his first stint, so he was managing them from the moment he had an off.



#104 HermannH

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:06

Don't start this already...Kimi fanboys moaning vibes.

Leclerc was nowhere in the first half of the race, Vettel had engine + wrong tyre problems in the second half.

It's ok to freeze positions, when you have nothing to gain in team's perspective.

The error was not to pit Leclerc for a new tyre to score a FL

Let's focus on developing this car rather than moaning about team orders..please

 

What engine problem are you talking about? vettel confirmed everything was ok with the engine.



#105 vlado

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:07

That team order was sad.. But I guess they didn't want to risk a collision? 

 

Thats the least of their worries, the car is simply not in contention. Leclerc had decent pace for the second half of the race, but still miles away from Bottas.. 



#106 TomNokoe

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:08

The pressure of driving for Ferrari... Leclerc feeling it immediately.


and now he has to ask for permission to overtake.

The poor kid is going to be eaten alive.

#107 vlado

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:08

Why the hell would Charles ask the team should he stay back? :D

Just go for it and if they want you to stay back, they will tell you..

 

Might be in his contract.. Lol 



#108 Massa

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:08

Charles did something like 15 more laps in his first stint, so he was managing them from the moment he had an off.



No he was not. Vettel was brought way too soon in the pit that's all.

#109 RPM40

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:09

Leclerc looked after his tyres in the first stint to have a big overcut, he ran the smarter race. No issues he deserved the opportunity to take the position.



#110 Lights

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:09

Ferrari brought in Vettel too early. Leclerc had younger tires and the hardest ones

 

Tough luck.



#111 apoka

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:10

What engine problem are you talking about? vettel confirmed everything was ok with the engine.


There was speculation about MGU-K issues as Vettel was 6 or 7 km/h slower in the last part. Could also be tyres not in their range.

#112 HermannH

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:10

and now he has to ask for permission to overtake.

The poor kid is going to be eaten alive.

Yeah. That is the definition of a cuckold really. I had high hopes for him, but asking for a permission is just complete cuckold stuff. 



#113 HermannH

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:11

There was speculation about MGU-K issues as Vettel was 6 or 7 km/h slower in the last part. Could also be tyres not in their range.

 

vettel said everything was ok to German tv.



#114 vlado

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:11

No he was not. Vettel was brought way too soon in the pit that's all.

Maybe he was struggling with the tires ? 



#115 nookie

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:11

Then surely it was a no brainer to pit him and try for fastest lap.

 

No signs of Ferrari's pit wall being more logical and organised this season.

if it was a "no-brainer", they could've just pitted both, re-issue the team-order and let vettel have a go instead of leclerc. win-win. yet they didn't.

 

evidently, it isn't a no-brainer, because no-one tried to make an extra pit-stop for new tyres in exchange for a go at one measly point. not even mercedes who were in a much better situation to do so.



#116 EndlessMotion

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:11

and now he has to ask for permission to overtake.

The poor kid is going to be eaten alive.

 

He's certainly no Max with his mindset. Ferrari present a unique pressure but you can't go in being that submissive right off the bat and asking to overtake if you want to succeed. I find Max quite an annoying character but I admire his no nonsense attitude and getting stuck in to whoever is in front of him if he's got close enough to tango.

 

Hopefully Charles settles down as he's clearly a quick young guy but he'll need to be more assertive in future situations.


Edited by EndlessMotion, 17 March 2019 - 07:12.


#117 CL16

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:11

Does it matter when it looks like a podium is going to be this cars maximum?

#118 xtremeclock

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:12

Leclerc looked after his tyres in the first stint to have a big overcut, he ran the smarter race. No issues he deserved the opportunity to take the position.

 

 

No he didn't, Leclerc went off track, he was 15s behind Vettel and Ferrari thought they could undercut Hamilton by calling Seb in that early...it's not like Vettel destroyed his tyres...


Edited by xtremeclock, 17 March 2019 - 07:13.


#119 BRK

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:13

So team orders from day 1. Leclerc is not allowed to have a go, neither do they pit him to try and get the fastest lap?

 

Welcome to team Vettel, Charles.

 

Charles wasn't performing any less than Vettel today.

 

 

#1 status before the season has even started, lame. Leclerc deserved to have a go today.

 

Vettel was on the oldest tyres of anybody. Leclcerc was average in qualifying, Vettel was ahead from the start, faster than Leclerc in the first stint, and Leclerc made mutiple mistakes this weekend. Vettel deserved to stay ahead on merit. 

 

I mean I know some of you have a clear agenda in dissing Vettel every chance you get - especially considering Hamilton just got absolutely drubbed by his teammate (25 seconds?!) - but that's no reason to troll like this. 



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#120 HermannH

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:13

He's certainly no Max with his mindset. Ferrari present a unique pressure but you can't go in being that submissive right off the bat and asking to overtake if you want to succeed. I find Max quite an annoying character but I admire his no nonsense attitude and getting stuck in to whoever is in front of him if he's got close enough to tango.

 

Hopefully Charles settles down as he's clearly a quick young guy but he'll need to be more assertive in future situations.

Absolutely. Can you imagine someone like Senna, Schumacher or Max asking it like that? They have the alpha mentality, whereas this was really poor from leclerc. 



#121 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:14

Ferrari has a serious car issue and should focus on that. Any team issues should follow later.

#122 thegamer23

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:15

vettel said everything was ok to German tv.


He's a team player.
He even smiled at that question

He dropped like a stone, while in the first stint he kept up with Hamilton with ease..

Doesn't look normal

Edited by thegamer23, 17 March 2019 - 07:16.


#123 HermannH

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:15

Vettel was on the oldest tyres of anybody. Leclcerc was average in qualifying, Vettel was ahead from the start, faster than Leclerc in the first stint, and Leclerc made mutiple mistakes this weekend. Vettel deserved to stay ahead on merit. 

 

 

 

 

You will notice no one is attacking vettel, everyone is saying it was sad from Ferrari to put a team order in the first race of the season.

No he didn't, Leclerc went off track, he was 15s behind Vettel and Ferrari thought they could undercut Hamilton by calling Seb in that early...it's not like Vettel destroyed his tyres…

 

He started saved them after his off.



#124 thefinalapex

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:16

In retrospect it makes the schumacher years such an achievement. This team is never gonna win anything in a long time.

#125 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:16

P4 and P5 in the first race of the season and Ferrari imposes teamorders, what a disgrace!



#126 HermannH

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:16

He's a team player.

 

:D okay. So you have no proof that he had an engine issue? Good to know.



#127 RPM40

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:16

Ferrari has a serious car issue and should focus on that. Any team issues should follow later.


Agree completely. Just let the faster driver pass and no issue

#128 Lights

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:17

Absolutely. Can you imagine someone like Senna, Schumacher or Max asking it like that? They have the alpha mentality, whereas this was really poor from leclerc. 

 

I'm trying to warm up to Leclerc and I figured I'd admire his modesty, but I agree that the way he approached the team about this instead of just trying to overtake as a racer (until he'd inevitability be told to hold station) is indeed disappointing.



#129 barzini

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:17

Vettel was on the oldest tyres of anybody. Leclcerc was average in qualifying, Vettel was ahead from the start, faster than Leclerc in the first stint, and Leclerc made mutiple mistakes this weekend. Vettel deserved to stay ahead on merit.

I mean I know some of you have a clear agenda in dissing Vettel every chance you get - especially considering Hamilton just got absolutely drubbed by his teammate (25 seconds?!) - but that's no reason to troll like this.


How someone "deserves" to be in front? Why not just let drivers fight each other and find out who comes on top? It really isn't Charles' problem that Vettel had different strategy.

#130 nookie

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:17

That team order was sad.. But I guess they didn't want to risk a collision? 

well, if ferrari didn't want to cause a collision and since ferrari are no shy of team-orders, why not just then simply order vettel to not put up a fight. i mean, surley, team-orders goes both ways, yes? oh, hang on...



#131 Massa

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:18

Maybe he was struggling with the tires ?


No he was not, he made his fastest lap the lap before he pit. As fast as the Mercedes at the time. They try an undercut to shake things, in a way it has worked because Hamilton was brought one lap after but it was the worst strategy. The hard tyres were better on the car and the old soft were fastest than new medium

#132 Marklar

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:19

Nothing wrong with the team advising to hold position tbh, they know that overtaking is tough here anyways, so no point in asking to throw away those 22 points.

(in fact I'm surprised that Leclerc wasnt pitted for the fastest lap point, but guess they feared to screw up the stop)

More worrying that Leclerc even asks about it, I dont think that this is a good attitude to achieve anything, but maybe I will be proven wrong.



#133 thegamer23

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:19

:D okay. So you have no proof that he had an engine issue? Good to know.


Actually there are reports about Ferrari tuning down their PU due to unreliability since quali.

Team won't confirm that.

Edited by thegamer23, 17 March 2019 - 07:19.


#134 HermannH

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:19

I'm trying to warm up to Leclerc and I figured I'd admire his modesty, but I agree that the way he approached the team about this instead of just trying to overtake as a racer (until he'd inevitability be told to hold station) is indeed disappointing.

 

Exactly. If team says, no way you are allowed, okay, that is different. But what Charles did smells of loser.

 

well, if ferrari didn't want to cause a collision and since ferrari are no shy of team-orders, why not just then simply order vettel to not put up a fight. i mean, surley, team-orders goes both ways, yes? oh, hang on...

Maybe Ferrari realized that with vettel's history around another car, this would be too dangerous :D



#135 HermannH

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:20

Actually there are reports about Ferrari tuning down their PU due to unreliability since quali.

Team won't confirm that.

 

So it affected both Ferraris, not only vettel?



#136 Cenotaph

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:20

if it was a "no-brainer", they could've just pitted both, re-issue the team-order and let vettel have a go instead of leclerc. win-win. yet they didn't.

evidently, it isn't a no-brainer, because no-one tried to make an extra pit-stop for new tyres in exchange for a go at one measly point. not even mercedes who were in a much better situation to do so.


Mercedes were not in a better situation. They had much more to lose...

I understand not allowing Leclerc to pass Vettel as Seb was not responsible for the strategy blunder, but not going for a FL attempt with over 30s advantage over P6 just showed how fragile Ferrari's crew felt today.

#137 Diablobb81

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:20

Nothing wrong with the team advising to hold position tbh, they know that overtaking is tough here anyways, so no point in asking to throw away those 22 points.

(in fact I'm surprised that Leclerc wasnt pitted for the fastest lap point, but guess they feared to screw up the stop)

More worrying that Leclerc even asks about it, I dont think that this is a good attitude to achieve anything, but maybe I will be proven wrong.


They probably decided about holding position before the race. Seeing that Seb was slow Charles tried his luck by asking.

#138 BRK

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:21

How someone "deserves" to be in front? Why not just let drivers fight each other and find out who comes on top? It really isn't Charles' problem that Vettel had different strategy.

 

Last year Ferrari & Arrivabene were heavily criticized for not implementing team orders when it was warranted. Why would you think Binotto would make the same mistake again?



#139 Jordan44

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:21

if it was a "no-brainer", they could've just pitted both, re-issue the team-order and let vettel have a go instead of leclerc. win-win. yet they didn't.

 

evidently, it isn't a no-brainer, because no-one tried to make an extra pit-stop for new tyres in exchange for a go at one measly point. not even mercedes who were in a much better situation to do so.

 

Mercedes didn't need to, because Bottas still clearly had the pace on everyone else. And even then you are leading the race so you have something to lose.

 

And yes, they could have done that as well if Vettel wanted to do so, it really was a no brainer.

 

One easy point chucked down the drain.


Edited by Jordan44, 17 March 2019 - 07:22.


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#140 TomNokoe

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:22

Last year Ferrari & Arrivabene were heavily criticized for not implementing team orders when it was warranted. Why would you think Binotto would make the same mistake again?


Let's not pretend this was in any way similar. It was the first race and the driver behind was actually faster. Complete opposite to last year.

#141 Lights

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:22

Last year Ferrari & Arrivabene were heavily criticized for not implementing team orders when it was warranted. Why would you think Binotto would make the same mistake again?

 

It's race 1, so of course it's not warranted. You can't compare that to cases last year halfway through the season.



#142 HermannH

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:23

Last year Ferrari & Arrivabene were heavily criticized for not implementing team orders when it was warranted. Why would you think Binotto would make the same mistake again?

Today was the FIRST race of the season. Neither team mate is ahead of the other and fighting for the title. 



#143 thegamer23

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:23

So it affected both Ferraris, not only vettel?


I have no answers, but Vettel's sudden drop of pace leaves me wondering, expecially considering the excellent first stint of the race.

#144 superdelphinus

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:24

vettel said everything was ok to German tv.


And British

#145 nookie

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:25

and now he has to ask for permission to overtake.

The poor kid is going to be eaten alive.

do you have a source for the complete radio traffic? or are you and everyone else just assuming that leclerc initiated the conversation by; "can i please pass?".



#146 BRK

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:26

Every point counts. You have these guys taking risks to get 1 point for a fastest lap. If Ferrari come good and Hamilton is back to form, that 4th place could make the difference between Vettel & Ferrari winning and losing again.

 

It's a different philosophy from Ferrari and I have no problem with that. 



#147 Marklar

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:26

I have no answers, but Vettel's sudden drop of pace leaves me wondering, expecially considering the excellent first stint of the race.

Probably tyres, just look how Hamilton looked today compared to Bottas for instance.

I do think that this is fixable, the much bigger issue is the overall pace of the car.

do you have a source for the complete radio traffic? or are you and everyone else just assuming that leclerc initiated the conversation by; "can i please pass?".


https://twitter.com/...178454175436800

#148 Shade

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:27

just like mercedes told bottas, another stop would introduce uncertain elements into the equation that would jeopardize the position they already had. pitting again, for new tyres, risking failure just by pitting is a calculated risk. no-one gambled.

 

but... team-orders on the forking first race. now that's being idiotic!

Charles asked the team what to do. We could've disguised it by pitting Lec when he caught Seb 


Edited by Shade, 17 March 2019 - 07:29.


#149 HermannH

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:29

I have no answers,.

I think that clears it up.



#150 nookie

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:31

Nothing wrong with the team advising to hold position tbh, they know that overtaking is tough here anyways, so no point in asking to throw away those 22 points.

if there's nothing wrong to tell one driver to hold position, then there's nothing wrong to tell the other to move over, either. unless of course, if one driver are not allowed to race the other. and THAT, i would argue, is indeed wrong.