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Ferrari 2019: Vettel vs Leclerc, Binotto vs shareholders, expectation vs reality


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#151 Shade

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:31

Actually i think they saved themselves from getting more embarrassed. They knew they had no chance to set FL even with fresh tyres!

Soft tyres and 2 laps worth of fuel? FL was 1.25 and yesterday's times were 1.22-1.23



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#152 Jordan44

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:31

Actually there are reports about Ferrari tuning down their PU due to unreliability since quali.

Team won't confirm that.

 

That rumour suggested it was only in qualifying, they basically weren't using their Q3 mode.

 

If they have to do it in race trim as well, then they must have some serious issues



#153 Pitlane

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:32

No point to moan about Leclerc asking the team, as we dont have a clue of whats been agreed or said before the race. There might very well be a standing order to check before any overtaking between them.

And considering the dispute between Binotti and Arrivabene last year regarding them not using teamstrategy more, its hardly not unexpected they would have this sorted beforehand.

Edited by Pitlane, 17 March 2019 - 07:33.


#154 thegamer23

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:32

I think that clears it up.


So tell me more, since you must be super well informed! :D

Edited by thegamer23, 17 March 2019 - 07:33.


#155 Marklar

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:33

if there's nothing wrong to tell one driver to hold position, then there's nothing wrong to tell the other to move over, either. unless of course, if one driver are not allowed to race the other. and THAT, i would argue, is indeed wrong.

The chances are very low to overtake in Melbourne, so Leclerc would have had to risk their cars to get ahead of Vettel. Ferrari had nothing to gain either by asking to move over, if they were close to Verstappen or if Magnussen was close behind them it would be a different story of course, but both things werent the case, so it's the only sensible solution to me.



#156 SCUDmissile

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:34

https://twitter.com/...2101507072?s=19

Me too. I fear Seb is still a bloody moron in turn 1.

#157 Vesuvius

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:38

Today was the FIRST race of the season. Neither team mate is ahead of the other and fighting for the title.


Vettel is their number 1 driver as stated by Binotto last time on friday at Melbourne. There was also nothing to gain anymore by switching places.

#158 HermannH

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:39

So tell me more, since you must be super well informed! :D

You claimed vettel had an engine issue, the onus was on you to prove that.

 

https://twitter.com/...2101507072?s=19

Me too. I fear Seb is still a bloody moron in turn 1.

vettel has shown on many occasions that he doesnt care at all about what he does to his teammates. Today was no exception.



#159 Vesuvius

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:42

Charles did something like 15 more laps in his first stint, so he was managing them from the moment he had an off.


That's not true. His strategy was implended during the race, he even made error in turn 1 on some lap and after that long first stint/ 1 stop was the only way to go. Leclerc was slower than Vettel all weekend and first stint, than had advantage of fresh/harder tyres.

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#160 Cenotaph

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:43

Oh cmon, Vettel's concern in T1 was Max. It's not like he swerved the car to block Charles... Ppl will literally overanalyze anything when it comes to Ferrari

#161 Vesuvius

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:44

Leclerc was nowhere near Vettel for most of the race. He only got close because Ferrari made yet another strategy blunder. Don't see what the outrage is in telling him to stay back.


This.

#162 TomNokoe

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:44

Vettel is their number 1 driver as stated by Binotto last time on friday at Melbourne. There was also nothing to gain anymore by switching places.


"In any team there needs to be a number one and a number two in a 50-50 situation," said Leclerc.

#163 geralt

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:44

If Binotto doesn't give Vettel and Leclerc a talk about starts, he's a fool. Charles would have been ahead of Max if not for Seb squeezing him and I remember how that costed him at least a win last season (in China)



#164 nookie

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:46

yes... i meant, of course, what may or may have transpired before that exchange.

 

prosecutor; did you hear the defendant say; "I want to kill you, you bastard!!"

attorney; did you hear the defendant say; "I want to kill you, you bastard" during the paintball match?

 

leclerc's words; "Should I stay behind Sebastian? Yes or no?" could've easily been a response to; "we think it's best to stay where you are", for which could have sparked leclerc's inquiry following unclear instructions. in fact, the question "yes or no" implies that there's more to it, else a simple "can i pass" would be more clear and succinct.

 

any other source?



#165 Massa

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:46

If Binotto doesn't give Vettel and Leclerc a talk about starts, he's a fool. Charles would have been ahead of Max if not for Seb squeezing him and I remember how that costed him at least a win last season (in China)



Vettel didn't knew Leclerc was there he was focused on Verstappen. For once, Seb did nothing wrong

#166 Chmielinski

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:47

You lot are just amazing. Leclerc was trying an unlikely move around the outside of Vettel and he barely had any of his car alongside. Should Vettel just stop and let his teammate go every time he's in the vicinity?



#167 CL16

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:49

https://twitter.com/...2101507072?s=19

Me too. I fear Seb is still a bloody moron in turn 1.


I spoke about this with my dad, if Leclerc hadn’t reacted they’d both be out.

#168 Vesuvius

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:49

You lot are just amazing. Leclerc was trying an unlikely move around the outside of Vettel and he barely had any of his car alongside. Should Vettel just stop and let his teammate go every time he's in the vicinity?


Had to agree with this, It was more of Leclercs fault this time, if anyones.

#169 thegamer23

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:51

You lot are just amazing. Leclerc was trying an unlikely move around the outside of Vettel and he barely had any of his car alongside. Should Vettel just stop and let his teammate go every time he's in the vicinity?


Don't you know? It's always Vettel's fault.

Yep, annoying. And it's only race 1.

#170 nookie

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:58

The chances are very low to overtake in Melbourne, so Leclerc would have had to risk their cars to get ahead of Vettel. Ferrari had nothing to gain either by asking to move over, if they were close to Verstappen or if Magnussen was close behind them it would be a different story of course, but both things werent the case, so it's the only sensible solution to me.

come on, man! leclerc was clearly told not to pass vettel, and as team-orders go, being told not to pass is on equal terms as being told not to defend, especially since it's the first race of the season. what remains is which driver the team prefer to finish ahead of the other. and if ferrari had nothing to gain by asking one driver to move over, ferrari had nothing to gain by asking one driver to not.

 

they're either equal, or they're not. this clearly proves that they're not. and i'm floored. absolutely flabbergasted that you, of all people, find it even debatable when it's so ridiculously obvious. disappointing.



#171 nookie

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 07:59

You lot are just amazing. Leclerc was trying an unlikely move around the outside of Vettel and he barely had any of his car alongside. Should Vettel just stop and let his teammate go every time he's in the vicinity?

so leclerc wasn't told to not pass?



#172 Vesuvius

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:00

come on, man! leclerc was clearly told not to pass vettel, and as team-orders go, being told not to pass is on equal terms as being told not to defend, especially since it's the first race of the season. what remains is which driver the team prefer to finish ahead of the other. and if ferrari had nothing to gain by asking one driver to move over, ferrari had nothing to gain by asking one driver to not.

they're either equal, or they're not. this clearly proves that they're not. and i'm floored. absolutely flabbergasted that you, of all people, find it even debatable when it's so ridiculously obvious. disappointing.


It was already stated before race, that Vettel was nro 1 driver. There was also no reason to switch places or risk colliding.

#173 Vesuvius

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:01

Watched the start again, wasn't Vettel's fault.

#174 baddog

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:14

Just re-watched the start, figured I must have missed something. Nope. Charles just got too wide, never had a serious shot at the place. sheesh.

 

Rest of the race was just sheer disappointment so meh.



#175 Sunnny

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:16

https://twitter.com/...2101507072?s=19

Me too. I fear Seb is still a bloody moron in turn 1.

 

Leclerc should be keeping his mouth shut. Way to go talking about your team mate to the public. Nice way to create disharmony  in the team  :rolleyes:



#176 nookie

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:16

The chances are very low to overtake in Melbourne, so Leclerc would have had to risk their cars to get ahead of Vettel.

since we're talking about team-orders, the chances of completing a pass, or indeed a defence, is utterly and completely irrelevant. if vettel was ordered to let leclerc by, there would be no more risk than ordering leclerc to stay put. everything is relative. the problem is that one outcome favoured one more than the other, and it just so happened to be the one that was favoured, was vettel. incidentally the same driver ferrari basically said would be favoured.

 

Come on, man. what... what the fork! everyone can see ferrari employed team-orders today, and it's even allowed, not to mention allowed to approve of. So why don't you?!



#177 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:17

Leclerc should be keeping his mouth shut. Way to go talking about your team mate to the public. Nice way to create disharmony  in the team  :rolleyes:

 

Worked very well for Mr. Alonso against Mr. Hamilton in a similar battle.  So why shouldn't Mr. Leclerc use similar tactics?  :)



#178 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:21

The car is the no1 priority now and everyone should focus on that.

#179 Marklar

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:21

since we're talking about team-orders, the chances of completing a pass, or indeed a defence, is utterly and completely irrelevant. if vettel was ordered to let leclerc by, there would be no more risk than ordering leclerc to stay put. everything is relative. the problem is that one outcome favoured one more than the other, and it just so happened to be the one that was favoured, was vettel. incidentally the same driver ferrari basically said would be favoured.

 

Come on, man. what... what the fork! everyone can see ferrari employed team-orders today, and it's even allowed, not to mention allowed to approve of. So why don't you?!

Swapping positions is seen as more interference though, especially since we dont know if Leclerc could have passed Vettel in the first place. There is definitely a difference to me. Now whether Ferrari sees it in a similar way or did that because Vettel is their number one is something everyone can decide for themselves. But teams asking drivers to hold station is fairly common across the field no matter which driver, much more so than asking to swap, so to me it's no issue one way or another.


Edited by Marklar, 17 March 2019 - 08:22.


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#180 nookie

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:21

Leclerc should be keeping his mouth shut. Way to go talking about your team mate to the public. Nice way to create disharmony  in the team  :rolleyes:

what was leclerc upset about regarding the start?



#181 Okyo

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:22

Leclerc should be keeping his mouth shut. Way to go talking about your team mate to the public. Nice way to create disharmony  in the team  :rolleyes:

He said nothing wrong. If he went "he pushed me out of track", that would imply some sort of purposeful action from Seb. 

 

I do think that not letting Leclerc overtake Seb was the right call. Think the team read the mood. Seb was on a bad strategy, the car seemed nowhere. Being way longer in the team than the rookie Leclerc, it woulda been just an extra knife in the back for Seb. THEN, we'd have disharmony issues.

 

The team did the right call, Charles will have his moments, but not on a horrid weekend like this.



#182 Vesuvius

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:24

Swapping positions is seen as more interference though, especially since we dont know if Leclerc could have passed Vettel in the first place. There is definitely a difference to me. Now whether Ferrari sees it in a similar way or did that because Vettel is their number one is something everyone can decide for themselves. But teams asking drivers to hold station is fairly common across the field no matter which driver, much more so than asking to swap, so to me it's no issue one way or another.


This.

#183 Jerem

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:27

So it was Kimi's tear-off issue that eventually led to Vettel and Hamilton giving up on preferred strategy, causing Vettel to eventually lose to Max and get caught up by Leclerc and to Ferrari having to (sort of) use team orders, while being relatively harmless for Hamilton. I can see Ferrari's pitwall has improved as much as their car since last year.



#184 Vesuvius

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:30

what was leclerc upset about regarding the start?


Likely his own driving.

#185 Zava

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:33

Why didn’t they let Charles pass? If he’s the faster driver on their first race together let him be.

maybe because he wasn't the faster driver? until the strategy blunder (and course correction based on that for Leclerc) Vettel had him in his pocket.



#186 as65p

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:39

https://twitter.com/...2101507072?s=19

Me too. I fear Seb is still a bloody moron in turn 1.

 

Whoever is surprised about this hasn't payed attention. It's always been the way Vettel races his [supposed no.2} teammates. Only that in recent years Kimi hardly complained about it, we'll see if that changes now with Leclerc.



#187 Vesuvius

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:42

Whoever is surprised about this hasn't payed attention. It's always been the way Vettel races his [supposed no.2} teammates. Only that in recent years Kimi hardly complained about it, we'll see if that changes now with Leclerc.


Recent years indeed Vettel has had his hsnd in these, however today it was Leclerc's own fault more than Seb's.

Edited by Vesuvius, 17 March 2019 - 08:44.


#188 nookie

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:43

Swapping positions is seen as more interference though, especially since we dont know if Leclerc could have passed Vettel in the first place.

no, it isn't. that's something you just made up. all else being equal, telling one driver to do something is just as bad as telling another driver not. regarding you second point... yeah, that's low. i can't of course prove that leclerc would've passed vettel. that's true. because it didn't happen. proving negatives... you didn't win this one.



#189 Okyo

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:44

Whoever is surprised about this hasn't payed attention. It's always been the way Vettel races his [supposed no.2} teammates. Only that in recent years Kimi hardly complained about it, we'll see if that changes now with Leclerc.

Seb locked a wheel in to T1, went wide and didn't expect Charles to be there, pushing him out. A mistake more on his part, yeah, but not something intentional in my opinion.. 



#190 w1Y

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:44

Never want to hear a ferrari fan moan about another team using team orders ever again.

1st race of the season and you impose them.

#191 Okyo

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:46

Recent years indeed Vettel has had his hsnd in these, however today it was Leclerc's own fault more than Seb's.

What? Why? Seb locked his wheel, going wide without leaving room for Charles. Not blaming Seb for it, but how on earth was it Charles fault? Overtakes in to T1 in Melbourne on the outside aren't an anomaly. 



#192 jesee

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:47

I don't understand Ferrari...why didn't they pit leclerc and go for the fastest lap point?

#193 Marklar

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:47

no, it isn't. that's something you just made up. all else being equal, telling one driver to do something is just as bad as telling another driver not. regarding you second point... yeah, that's low. i can't of course prove that leclerc would've passed vettel. that's true. because it didn't happen. proving negatives... you didn't win this one.

No, it's a fact. Teams ask frequently their drivers to hold position, but rarely to swap.

Different question what you think of it from a moral standpoint, but that's how teams have been operating for years.

I don't understand Ferrari...why didn't they pit leclerc and go for the fastest lap point?

He has 28 seconds of Magnussen, if they screw it up he could have lost it I guess

Edited by Marklar, 17 March 2019 - 08:48.


#194 naukkis

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:53

He has 28 seconds of Magnussen, if they screw it up he could have lost it I guess

 

He had 35 seconds at time and Vettel had even more. Easy 2pts lost vs Mercedes.



#195 xtremeclock

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:55



Seb locked a wheel in to T1, went wide and didn't expect Charles to be there, pushing him out. A mistake more on his part, yeah, but not something intentional in my opinion.. 

 

https://streamable.com/jhor3

 

I don't think Vettel pushed him wide intentionally and Leclerc can't expect Vettel to brake and let him pass, he was a bit too optimistic with that maneuver. 



#196 Okyo

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 08:59

https://streamable.com/jhor3

 

I don't think Vettel pushed him wide intentionally and Leclerc can't expect Vettel to brake and let him pass, he was a bit too optimistic with that maneuver. 

I don't think so too. 

 

That's the thing. It was just a simple case of one driver going a tad bit wide and the other hoping that he wouldn't. Nothing wrong happened. Charles didn't point fingers saying that Seb did something intentional. Team controlled the end in likely the right way.

 

Everything went well, besides the lack of pace thing. Yet some some still wanna have a dig at one or the other driver. 

 

Move on and focus on the main issues.


Edited by Okyo, 17 March 2019 - 09:00.


#197 jesee

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 09:00

He had 35 seconds at time and Vettel had even more. Easy 2pts lost vs Mercedes.


The problem sometimes with Ferrari is that they are too timid. What if is the wrong attitude to have on this game? You can what if anything. There was a low hanging fruit and they refused to take it.

#198 Marklar

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 09:00

He had 35 seconds at time and Vettel had even more. Easy 2pts lost vs Mercedes.

Nope


Race end
U2Jm8D9.png

same after lap 56 which would have been his last chance to pit and set a time

8m53Bew.png

I mean its enough, but there is a certain risk to it if just one thing goes wrong, so I can see why they did that.

What they perhaps should have done now that I think of it is let Leclerc through Vettel, let him pull away to have an even bigger gap to Magnussen to be absolutely sure and then pit, but I guess they werent thinking of that option or thought it to be too messy.



#199 naukkis

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 09:10

Nope


Race end
U2Jm8D9.png

same after lap 56 which would have been his last chance to pit and set a time

8m53Bew.png

I mean its enough, but there is a certain risk to it if just one thing goes wrong, so I can see why they did that.

What they perhaps should have done now that I think of it is let Leclerc through Vettel, let him pull away to have an even bigger gap to Magnussen to be absolutely sure and then pit, but I guess they werent thinking of that option or thought it to be too messy.

 

Magnussen close up as Leclerc slows down after closed up with Vettel. Going for FL didn't need to wait for latest laps, Leclerc could have been pitted when time difference was 35s when he was catching up Vettel. It was plain obvious thing to do, every other team but Ferrari would have done it.



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#200 Marklar

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Posted 17 March 2019 - 09:10

1, if it's a fact,prove that fact

Rewatch the races in the past   :wave: 

 

2, again, we're not talking about "swapping", and you know it. 

If we are not talking about swapping then we are talking about racing which brings us back to risking 22 points for literally no reason.

 

You're being obtuse, because with your amount of participation and the quality of your posts and your reasoning...

:lol:

 

3, like i said, come on, man! you're drunk.

I'm not the aggresive one in this discussion, so I doubt that  :wave: