Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 6 votes

Ferrari 2019: Vettel vs Leclerc, Binotto vs shareholders, expectation vs reality


  • Please log in to reply
5656 replies to this topic

#2851 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 14,830 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 16 May 2019 - 22:00

Not sure how Charles being fast is a problem, it is what they hired him for.

 

His speed in itself is not a problem, the consequences are.

 

Vettel and Leclerc are constantly racing each other and literally interfering with the other's race. That's why people are defending the need for more and/or less team orders, because, as it is, they can even help themselves have a clean race and they can't help themselves see who can do more on track without orders.

 

That does not help Ferrari maximize their potential and the lack of a clear pecking order doesn't help them win battles in the press.



Advertisement

#2852 RPM40

RPM40
  • Member

  • 11,017 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 16 May 2019 - 22:22

His speed in itself is not a problem, the consequences are.

 

Vettel and Leclerc are constantly racing each other and literally interfering with the other's race. That's why people are defending the need for more and/or less team orders, because, as it is, they can even help themselves have a clean race and they can't help themselves see who can do more on track without orders.

 

That does not help Ferrari maximize their potential and the lack of a clear pecking order doesn't help them win battles in the press.

 

Its still not a problem. Charles has secured a pole and could have secured a win if their reliability didn't let him down. Vettel hasn't looked close to doing either of these things. 

 

They aren't competing for a championship.



#2853 bernardv

bernardv
  • Member

  • 296 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 16 May 2019 - 22:26

His speed in itself is not a problem, the consequences are.

 

Vettel and Leclerc are constantly racing each other and literally interfering with the other's race. That's why people are defending the need for more and/or less team orders, because, as it is, they can even help themselves have a clean race and they can't help themselves see who can do more on track without orders.

 

That does not help Ferrari maximize their potential and the lack of a clear pecking order doesn't help them win battles in the press.

 

What consequences? Seb finishing 4th instead of MAYBE 3rd? Who cares, let them race.

 

Maybe they should put both drivers on the same strategy (the one that makes sense) for a change and then watch Charles pull away with ease. The only reason why these 2 are getting caught up during the race is because Charles ends up with some dumb plan B strategy most of the time.



#2854 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 10,406 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 May 2019 - 06:36

Yeah- read all about it here. :)

https://www.business...n-Winnow-Shared

 

I'm a genius :drunk:  Thanks



#2855 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 2,821 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 17 May 2019 - 06:43

Its still not a problem. Charles has secured a pole and could have secured a win if their reliability didn't let him down. Vettel hasn't looked close to doing either of these things. 

 

 

Wow, Vettel had better pace in 4 out of 5 races and you make it sound as Vettel is hopeless to achieve anything. 



#2856 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 2,821 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 17 May 2019 - 06:46

The only reason why these 2 are getting caught up during the race is because Charles ends up with some dumb plan B strategy most of the time.

What a stupid nonsense 



#2857 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 22,012 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 17 May 2019 - 06:48

Yeah- read all about it here. :)

https://www.business...n-Winnow-Shared

 

Oh well, now how do I go about winnowing all that useless info out of my head again? :stoned:



#2858 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,067 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:25

 

 

The word “winnow” (pronounced: “win”–“oh”)

 

Why don't they write it as "winoh" then, instead of "winnow"?

 

Nah, this makes as much sense as Ferrari strategy. Or to put it this way - these complement each other well.



#2859 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 17 May 2019 - 09:12

What consequences? Seb finishing 4th instead of MAYBE 3rd? Who cares, let them race.

 

That's not the reason there have been problems. It's when the Ferrari in 3rd tries to take 2nd, and compromises his strategy compared to the Ferrari in 4th, that Ferrari has judged it necessary to interfere.

 

Seems reasonable, although at this stage - with the championship being rather an unreasonable expectation - perhaps Ferrari can loosen up a bit, and just see how it plays out.

 


Advertisement

#2860 RPM40

RPM40
  • Member

  • 11,017 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 17 May 2019 - 09:25

Wow, Vettel had better pace in 4 out of 5 races and you make it sound as Vettel is hopeless to achieve anything.


He hasn’t had a pole or competed for a win, no. I wouldn’t say he’s had the better pace in 4/5 either

#2861 Astandahl

Astandahl
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 17 May 2019 - 09:33

Wow, Vettel had better pace in 4 out of 5 races and you make it sound as Vettel is hopeless to achieve anything. 

Not true.



#2862 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 2,821 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 17 May 2019 - 09:52

Not true.

What is not true?

 

China, Baku and Spain are clear cut, Aus less, but Vettel dominated when on same strategy, later they pitted him too early, failed with undercut and he spent many laps behind other car unable to go his pace, later in the stint it was only about tire conservation.



#2863 Astandahl

Astandahl
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 17 May 2019 - 09:53

What is not true?

 

China, Baku and Spain are clear cut, Aus less, but Vettel dominated when on same strategy, later they pitted him too early, failed with undercut and he spent many laps behind other car unable to go his pace, later in the stint it was only about tire conservation.

Ok



#2864 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 32,591 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 17 May 2019 - 10:14

I actually think Australia is the most clear cut one because until they were not on the same strategy he was running away quite clearly (even if a bit of it was down to Leclerc making a mistake), something that wasnt the case in any other race.

The pace difference was not very huge in China until Ferrari decided to screw Leclerc over. In Spain we only can compare the final stint to where Vettel was a bit quicker, but it's also a stage of the race where drivers often dont push anymore unless they have a chance. In Baku Leclerc was running an entirely different strategy, so the only possible comparison is over cross comparing them with the Red Bull guys (Vettel was more or less as quick as Max, while Leclerc struggled to keep up with Gasly), which might not tell the whole story either given that it could be that the Ferrari might just react to a heavy car on mediums differently.

I would also say that Vettel was in the race quicker 4 out of 5 times, however it wasnt very clear cut IMO. Nowhere near as much as Bahrain anyways.



#2865 Astandahl

Astandahl
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 17 May 2019 - 10:20

I actually think Australia is the most clear cut one because until they were not on the same strategy he was running away quite clearly (even if a bit of it was down to Leclerc making a mistake), something that wasnt the case in any other race.

The pace difference was not very huge in China until Ferrari decided to screw Leclerc over. In Spain we only can compare the final stint to where Vettel was a bit quicker, but it's also a stage of the race where drivers often dont push anymore unless they have a chance. In Baku Leclerc was running an entirely different strategy, so the only possible comparison is over cross comparing them with the Red Bull guys (Vettel was more or less as quick as Max, while Leclerc struggled to keep up with Gasly), which might not tell the whole story either given that it could be that the Ferrari might just react to a heavy car on mediums differently.

I would also say that Vettel was in the race quicker 4 out of 5 times, however it wasnt very clear cut IMO. Nowhere near as much as Bahrain anyways.

In Baku Leclerc was way faster. He didn't push after the first pit because the gap was just too big.  He ruined his race in quali.

 

The average pace between the two is very very similar.



#2866 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 27,123 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 17 May 2019 - 10:28

In Baku Leclerc was way faster. He didn't push after the first pit because the gap was just too big.  He ruined his race in quali.

 

The average pace between the two is very very similar.

 

Baku cant agree, you cant just assume he WOULD be faster if he wanted to be, he wasnt and thats the evidence we have.

 

As for average, It is close but Vettel has the edge in race pace, and is more consistent in qualy. This gives him an edge overall, but Charles has started extremely well.



#2867 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 2,821 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 17 May 2019 - 11:03

I actually think Australia is the most clear cut one because until they were not on the same strategy he was running away quite clearly (even if a bit of it was down to Leclerc making a mistake), something that wasnt the case in any other race.

The pace difference was not very huge in China until Ferrari decided to screw Leclerc over. In Spain we only can compare the final stint to where Vettel was a bit quicker, but it's also a stage of the race where drivers often dont push anymore unless they have a chance. In Baku Leclerc was running an entirely different strategy, so the only possible comparison is over cross comparing them with the Red Bull guys (Vettel was more or less as quick as Max, while Leclerc struggled to keep up with Gasly), which might not tell the whole story either given that it could be that the Ferrari might just react to a heavy car on mediums differently.

I would also say that Vettel was in the race quicker 4 out of 5 times, however it wasnt very clear cut IMO. Nowhere near as much as Bahrain anyways.

Actually agree about Spain, Australia, Bahrain

 

In China Leclerc was cork in the bottle, in second stint they had same tires, lenght 15 laps (laps 16-18 Leclerc was used to slow Mercedes, which didnt work) in free air and Vettel had same overall time with a car which was 0,4sec. heavier/slower.

 

In Baku Vettels medium tires were 11 laps younger but he was miles faster to explain that difference.



#2868 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,067 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 21 May 2019 - 09:15

Considering this is the personnel thread, what do folks think - do we now this season see the effect of Marchionne's death? Under his leadership Ferrari was improving from 2014 to 2018. Since his death power struggle took Ferrari over and they have dropped backwards again. Since last July it has been an unknown, how his loss would affect Ferrari long-term. Is this the effect we are seeing now? Was Marchionne a genius, who held the team together? 



#2869 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 14,830 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 21 May 2019 - 20:10

I don't know. Good question. I also think this is the first I've ever seen him be called a genious.

 

Was it he who chose Leclerc?



#2870 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,067 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 22 May 2019 - 11:58

 

Was it he who chose Leclerc?

 

It appears to have been him, yes.



#2871 TheJammin

TheJammin
  • Member

  • 330 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 22 May 2019 - 12:36

I think it was his wish or intent to sign Leclerc and after his death there was some debate about whether to maintain stability by keeping Kimi or to go with Sergio's wish and sign Leclerc.



#2872 Marklar

Marklar
  • Member

  • 32,591 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 22 May 2019 - 14:33

I honestly think that Marchionne is being remembered as way better than he was, as many are after they died.

Sure, Ferrari improved under his direction, but it's not really difficult to top 2014, you know? There was even a dip in 2016, so you cant even act like the current season now is related to his death.

He certainly had a part in Ferrari's recovery in 2017/18, but at the same time he was the one who brought fear, media boycots, etc. in, something Arrivabene is in retrospective blamed for.

#2873 jannyg

jannyg
  • Member

  • 1,403 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 22 May 2019 - 14:50

I honestly think that Marchionne is being remembered as way better than he was, as many are after they died.

Sure, Ferrari improved under his direction, but it's not really difficult to top 2014, you know? There was even a dip in 2016, so you cant even act like the current season now is related to his death.

He certainly had a part in Ferrari's recovery in 2017/18, but at the same time he was the one who brought fear, media boycots, etc. in, something Arrivabene is in retrospective blamed for.

 

But it looked like he was bringing back their political power behind the scenes. That figurehead who could work with the FIA and get Ferrari their 'advantages'

 

I think if he was around then there would have been more clarity around their engines mystical power drop toward the end of last season. 



#2874 Shade

Shade
  • Member

  • 738 posts
  • Joined: February 17

Posted 25 May 2019 - 10:19

From Twitter @vettleleclerc

According to Corriere della Sera, Ferrari has snatched someone from Red Bull, who could prove to be fundamental in giving new life to their simulator. It's Marco Adurno, an expert in correlation of car dynamics, who will also take care of the development of the simulator.

Source: https://www.formulap...impression=true

And Turrini is writing also

Turrini also reports changes at Ferrari:

• Alessandro Cinelli is no longer responsible for aerodynamic performance.

• Giacomo Tortora is no longer responsible for the vehicle area (including the relationship with the tyres)
https://www.quotidia...impression=true

I think you should post these in the Technical Thread my friend



#2875 Cacarella

Cacarella
  • Member

  • 1,010 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:21

This team is a shambles. It goes far deeper than down force, traction, or tyres. The personnel are failing

#2876 Ramses1348

Ramses1348
  • Member

  • 865 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:22

CLOWNS

#2877 rog

rog
  • Member

  • 1,199 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:23

Ferrari is a joke, especially Vettel. Another driver mistake from him but he was lucky he could start a second run, not so Leclerc.



#2878 Jordan44

Jordan44
  • Member

  • 8,007 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:24

Binotto is on borrowed time

#2879 TomNokoe

TomNokoe
  • Member

  • 20,145 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:25

Leclerc not fast enough with one run. Should've made it.

Vettel equally slow but saved.

Advertisement

#2880 Cacarella

Cacarella
  • Member

  • 1,010 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:26

Binotto is on borrowed time


Wouldn't this have been yet another Jock Clear decision?

#2881 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 16,401 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:31

Speeding under VSC in FP3, missing the weighbridge in Q1 to then stay in pits the last minutes to drop out of qualifying.

 

What the fck is going on at Leclerc's side of the garage today?



#2882 Raest

Raest
  • Member

  • 335 posts
  • Joined: August 14

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:32

This is one of the rare times where one could say “words fail me” and it actually being true. You substitute the whole race operations team with random people from the stands and you ‘ll probably improve said operations

#2883 Okyo

Okyo
  • Member

  • 1,345 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:35

Laughing stock of the grid, eh?

#2884 Scudetto

Scudetto
  • Member

  • 8,108 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:35

Speeding under VSC in FP3, missing the weighbridge in Q1 to then stay in pits the last minutes to drop out of qualifying.

 

What the fck is going on at Leclerc's side of the garage today?

 

Leclerc is being managed by Leclowns.



#2885 Astandahl

Astandahl
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:38

Unreal.



#2886 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 15,925 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:48

It should at least allow Vettel to build up a bit of a cushion in the standings and make those TOs more straight forward.

Typical Ferrari...

#2887 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 1,281 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:50

Wouldn't this have been yet another Jock Clear decision?

 

Yes. But it's the team principals responsibility to ensure the pitwall isn't a bunch of clowns.



#2888 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 7,311 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:52

Leclerc is furious

Even inside the car he asked to go out many times. Everybody was out and he had only one tenth gap so they should have go out.

I think some heads will finally roll in the strategy team

Edited by Massa, 25 May 2019 - 13:54.


#2889 GiorgioF1

GiorgioF1
  • Member

  • 735 posts
  • Joined: December 17

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:54

- I asked if they are sure. They said they are. I have no explanation yet. It is difficult to swallow - says Charles Leclerc, who was 16th. - Weighing was not a problem. We still had time to leave. Now I have to go extremely overtaking.

 

https://twitter.com/...281607036035072



#2890 JHSingo

JHSingo
  • Member

  • 6,627 posts
  • Joined: June 13

Posted 25 May 2019 - 13:56

Binotto needs showing his marching orders pronto.


Edited by JHSingo, 25 May 2019 - 13:56.


#2891 Okyo

Okyo
  • Member

  • 1,345 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:00

The events of today really have to roll in changes. I mean, just how low do they have to go for changes to happen?



#2892 alfone

alfone
  • Member

  • 126 posts
  • Joined: May 19

Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:00

This team is a shambles. It goes far deeper than down force, traction, or tyres. The personnel are failing


What in unbelievable is that they ALWAYS mess it up. A major mistake HAS to be accounted for when trying to predict their result at a certain race.

#2893 NickeF1

NickeF1
  • Member

  • 685 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:03

Fire Binotto and bring Arrivabene back.

#2894 alfone

alfone
  • Member

  • 126 posts
  • Joined: May 19

Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:08

Fire Binotto and bring Arrivabene back.

No. Binotto back to a leading but strictly engineering role, Arrivabene back to team management, and the strategy man one way to Alpha Centauri.

#2895 GiorgioF1

GiorgioF1
  • Member

  • 735 posts
  • Joined: December 17

Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:08

QNL496.gif



#2896 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 7,311 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:09

Fire Binotto and bring Arrivabene back.


It's stupid. These mistakes were there last year. Thanks God you are not managing the team

Edited by Massa, 25 May 2019 - 14:09.


#2897 ali_M

ali_M
  • Member

  • 1,194 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:09

Oh... oh.. no Ferrari.  Looks like Clear et al struck again!!  He had a hand in the messy strategising in the last race and now this??  

 

Vettel is clearly under a lot of pressure and I think he would do a lot better if he stopped trying so hard to act as if nothing is happening or that it doesn't really matter to him.



#2898 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 7,311 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:10

No. Binotto back to a leading but strictly engineering role, Arrivabene back to team management, and the strategy man one way to Alpha Centauri.



Lol
Binnoto was a manager in his old role. He never build a car.

#2899 alfone

alfone
  • Member

  • 126 posts
  • Joined: May 19

Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:10

It's stupid. These mistaked were there last year. Thanks God you are not managing the team


No. Last year mistakes stemmed out from gambles for trying to outsmart the competition, here you have plain basic incompetence.

Advertisement

#2900 JRodrigues

JRodrigues
  • Member

  • 929 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 25 May 2019 - 14:11

 

 

JRodrigues, on 28 Apr 2019 - 20:00, said:

snapback.png 

 

Fire Arrivabene, he's useless!

 

 

This.

 

This. Again.