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Williams: Drivers, management and other folks at Grove 2019


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#5251 Marklar

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 20:13

A "front wing from pre-season testing" sounds like a (possibly deliberate) effect to dramatize things a tad. Plenty of things on every car on the grid are from pre-season testing (e.g. Vettel is now racing a MGU-K from Melbourne, Haas is actually quicker on Melbourne spec, etc.), the Front Wing tends not to be amongst them since it's one of the most developed parts over the season besides the bargeboards, but this hasnt been much the case for Williams. I doubt that the two versions are that different anyways. But as Clatter said standard procedure is to give it to the quickest guy, sometines they refrain from this because either it was the drivers' own fault (not the case here) or because it doesnt matter anyways (the case here)

Christian Horner mentioned recently that producing a new front wing after damaging the old one costs around 150k. Now I dont know if he was exagerating by including fixed costs into this, but considering that all Mercedes customers refrained from paying 1m for a 4th engine a couple of years back when they were actually fighting for something it doesnt shock me that Williams is not willing to pay more than necessary when they have nothing to fight for.

It would be interesting to see though what would happen if 1-2 more front wings break. Do they have some older ones still in spare? Would they just repair them? Would they just produce another one? Would they race with slight damage? Would they not race at all?

Btw, since somebody said in response to Haas lacking spare parts that Grosjean is crashing a lot: that's horse ****. Grosjean had few crashes this year. Most of his DNFs were mechanical failures. There is a destruction breakdown for all sessions somewhere on reddit that estimates the costs based on the damage caused by each driver, and both Williams drivers were ahead of Grosjean there.

Though then again Haas is probably an even bigger cluster**** this year, so probably not a flattering comparison to make in the first place.

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#5252 Krr

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 20:37

The Grojean is good example of how this works, I mean people get labeled by people. Once something sticks, it sticks. Grojean is the crasher even he does not crash, Hulk is average because he lack podium finish, Kubica is now death slow and would need to have a sponsor to ride a bicyckle and so on.

#5253 AndyPerry

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 20:44

The Grojean is good example of how this works, I mean people get labeled by people. Once something sticks, it sticks. Grojean is the crasher even he does not crash, Hulk is average because he lack podium finish, Kubica is now death slow and would need to have a sponsor to ride a bicyckle and so on.

But it's NOT made up.

Grosjean is woefully inconsistent and prone to brainfades, Hulkenberg should've gotten more out of his machinery than he's been able to, Kubica is patently slower than his rookie teammate and not someone Williams wish to continue working with.

People haven't made all of this up, it's just how it is.

Edited by AndyPerry, 10 October 2019 - 20:44.


#5254 Krr

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 20:52

But it's NOT made up.

Grosjean is woefully inconsistent and prone to brainfades, Hulkenberg should've gotten more out of his machinery than he's been able to, Kubica is patently slower than his rookie teammate and not someone Williams wish to continue working with.

People haven't made all of this up, it's just how it is.

I am not saying it generally is not. What I meant was, f.ex everybody knows Grojean does stupid things, but even if he have a better season or have technical DNF or crashes not on his own, people will still say "oh look, Grojean crashed again, hahah".

When Kubica have better weekend people will not admit it ckearly, it will be because George had a day off. When Kubica says it was his decision to leave and Claire confirmed all the way, people here still knows better, because why would Williams want to continue with such slow driver.

Etc. Etc.

Edited by Krr, 10 October 2019 - 20:53.


#5255 AndyPerry

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 21:00

I am not saying it generally is not. What I meant was, f.ex everybody knows Grojean does stupid things, but even if he have a better season or have technical DNF or crashes not on his own, people will still say "oh look, Grojean crashed again, hahah".

When Kubica have better weekend people will not admit it ckearly, it will be because George had a day off. When Kubica says it was his decision to leave and Claire confirmed all the way, people here still knows better, because why would Williams want to continue with such slow driver.

Etc. Etc.

Well, if you ask me, over the span of his career, Grosjean has made an incredible amount of huge mistakes, that a top line driver of F1 calibre should never have made. It is a mistery to me, why Haas still decided to keep him. That being said, the retirement in Russia wasn't his fault, so I don't count it. I don't think there's many people on here, who laugh and point fingers at him, when it's not his fault.

Robert, compared to Russell, has shown to be consistently slower by a large margin over the course of the season. Enough races have gone by to make that a fact. However, when he drove a good race (Monaco), I commended him for it. Sadly, it's just waay to little to count.

Edited by AndyPerry, 10 October 2019 - 21:04.


#5256 Paco

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 21:14

You are welcome. And you know what, here is some more.

Speaking more about Russia this weekend with Polish guys Robert told it was dissappointing decision (his secret personal goal was to finish all races), because they have already been in this kind of situations or races, where there was a risk, but there was a driver in this car that is perfectly aware how the situation looks. He said he thinks that he performed pretty well all year saving the car as much as he could.

Knowing that the newer kit would always go to the faster driver, which George seems to be named even before the season started btw, wouldn't you think that Robert's performance, or pace should start to be looked at different light now?

Nope. Why would his performance be looked at differently? Russell has been miles ahead.. it’s not as if Robert has been close and he fades in races significantly. It’s not just about bringing the car please from Claire and co. Fine, he doesn’t want to eeek our 1-2/10ths fine, but he’s off by way more then that and in races way worse... if heblefts off the gas purposefully that much then their data collection goes off as well as he won’t be generating the aero loads for then to improve the car.

Why must there always be a reason vs it just didn’t work out and he is slow... there’s always slow cars on the grid but a driver is always mainly judged against his teammate and he has not been fast for 1lap or fast in races... so the car is immaterial. So what’s has been good at in 2019?

Edited by Paco, 10 October 2019 - 21:16.


#5257 Paco

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 21:22

The Grojean is good example of how this works, I mean people get labeled by people. Once something sticks, it sticks. Grojean is the crasher even he does not crash, Hulk is average because he lack podium finish, Kubica is now death slow and would need to have a sponsor to ride a bicyckle and so on.


Grosjean when he’s on it and fast and has some good races. He does have mental issues on track and if you watched the Netflix special you’d see he has gotten a pyschologist to hell him stay focus and not make silly mistakes in races. So the title is not unwarranted.

Hulk is average as he has had a very hard time with his new teammate and quickly couldn’t stick a claim to being no1 there.. so title sticks.

Kubica title fit from what he has done in 2019.

So I don’t get your point... yes drivers a mystique based on how well or poorly they do.

#5258 pdac

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 21:44

Bingo, you are the first with exact argument I was expecting. Fits perfectly now.

 

Are you so biased towards Robert that you cannot see that they are making a team decision to maximise their possibility of success. Although it's possible that Robert may have suffered worse results than George through circumstances beyond his control, none the less he has suffered worse results. So, without any prejudice, it makes perfect, if you cannot given both drivers the same equipment, to give the better stuff to the one who is more likely to do the best with it.

 

If it were earlier in the season, they giving each driver equal opportunities would be the order of the day. But this far in, with the stats on each driver that are available, why would you think that anyone choose to give the better parts to Robert over George?


Edited by pdac, 10 October 2019 - 21:46.


#5259 Krr

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 05:41

Are you so biased towards Robert that you cannot see that they are making a team decision to maximise their possibility of success. Although it's possible that Robert may have suffered worse results than George through circumstances beyond his control, none the less he has suffered worse results. So, without any prejudice, it makes perfect, if you cannot given both drivers the same equipment, to give the better stuff to the one who is more likely to do the best with it.

 

If it were earlier in the season, they giving each driver equal opportunities would be the order of the day. But this far in, with the stats on each driver that are available, why would you think that anyone choose to give the better parts to Robert over George?

Yes, I am biased towards Robert, just as any fan of a given driver is at some degree. But that does not mean I cannot apply any logic given what is getting revealed more and more now. 

 

They maximise their possibility of what success exactly? Being 18th? Because that is the success they can count on normal circumstances. How much more points or profit that makes them compared to 20th? Or maybe they hope for a rain and changable condition? Oh wait, I thought that their second driver can cope with these pretty well, as shown in Germany.

 

In all seriousness, the bolded part explain wonderfull what my whole "conspiracy" theory was about all along. Not a front against Robert at Williams, not anyone wanting to destroy his career, not anyone doing anything on purpose, but simple so short of recources that often not being able to give both drivers the same equipment, the some age quality parts, not being able to catch up on updates on similar pace etc. etc.

 

If a team this late in the season is so short on spare parts, and has to bring basically first front wing they produced for this car several months ago, is that really this science fiction to think they had these kind of trouble all year long? No, it is not. This is just FW we know about, once design confirmed, it is plain simple, you order this, pay for it, get it done. They even cannot do it, But is FW the only changable element of the car? No, it is not. How much we do not know about yet, my bet is a lot of similar kind issues are closed deeply inside the team.

 

I say normally as the time passes, these problems should be less and less painfull, is that not logic? If they do suffer this now, even their season was very smooth regarding crashes etc, than what on earth tells you that ealier in the season giving each driver equal opportunities was the order of the day? They cannot do it in october, but they were in march, april and may? My ass they were. And if giving better equipment to a faster driver is a rule, then after Australia the verdict was on, and from then it just got worse and worse.

 

And to get ahead of some weird conclusion from my words, I am not saying if in Australia Robert was quicker then all year he would, no. Yes, George is the faster driver of the 2 now, but the picture we are seing is not fully representative, and I am sure Robert suffered a hell lot more from what state Williams is at now then George did. 


Edited by Krr, 11 October 2019 - 05:47.


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#5260 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 08:46

I do not know how you guys will stand this, but I will add some more news in this thread ;)

In case missed in technical thread, Robert addmitedly will use FW from pre-season test.

https://www.auto-mot...-gp-japan-2019/

I am ready to take some more conspiracy accusation, but if they have 2 FW here(except new concept), it is rather obvious 1 would be Robert's from Sochi and this second from pre-season testing. If 3 recently broken were on George's car, would it not be "fair" that Robert gets fresher?

Not sure what you are trying to say here.  It's no secret parts are tight.  If they only have one part then it's a no brainer to give it to both the undoubtedly quicker driver and the one who is actually going to be staying at the team next season.  I don't see any logic in giving it to Kubica now and it certainly doesn't imply any conspiracy or underhand dealings, just common sense



#5261 GarilNarbe

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 09:05

Makes perfect sense to give the faster driver the newer kit.

And this is all Kubica fans are saying all the time. That new parts are going to George, and worse to Robert. So Georges car is going faster and faster and Roberts only if there is enought parts for him. So there is no conspiracy. It is the fact now. Thank you for admiring it.



#5262 Murdoch

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 09:28

If Robert could go quicker, he would get the parts.

 

But he can't, so he doesn't.



#5263 Krr

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 09:39

If Robert could go quicker, he would get the parts.

But he can't, so he doesn't.


If Robert would get parts, he would go quicker.

But he does not, so he do not.

#5264 Krr

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 09:51

Not sure what you are trying to say here.  It's no secret parts are tight.  If they only have one part then it's a no brainer to give it to both the undoubtedly quicker driver and the one who is actually going to be staying at the team next season.  I don't see any logic in giving it to Kubica now and it certainly doesn't imply any conspiracy or underhand dealings, just common sense

All I am trying to say is that parts allocation politics when short between the drivers becomes clear.

 

Obviously at this point of the year the quicker driver/Robert not staying in the team explanation is the easiest and somehow correct. 

 

But also what becomes clear is that they have been short in that ascpect from the very begining, and the most probable answer for the question who always got new/fresher parts first is obviously George.

 

What I am not saying it is unusual. Yes, you cannot split the part of half, you need to make a choice, that is for sure. But I would bet my finger that George had the priority from the very begining, which made his life easier/Kubica life harder. FW here, suspension there, bits here, bits there, tenth here, tenth there and even though probably George would still come on top, the picture surely would not be so brutal as it is looking today. 



#5265 Marklar

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 09:51

And this is all Kubica fans are saying all the time. That new parts are going to George, and worse to Robert. So Georges car is going faster and faster and Roberts only if there is enought parts for him. So there is no conspiracy. It is the fact now. Thank you for admiring it.

When has Williams produced upgrades only for one car? They have this weekend one new front wing and neither driver will get it in the race. Otherwise all upgrades so far this season were applied to both cars. According to you guys logic they wouldnt bother to produce upgrades for Kubica and just produce more for George, but clearly that's not what is happening.

If it's not about upgrades then what else? Age of parts? Irrelevant for most of the part, besides that nothing indicates that Kubica gets all the old parts.

Actually fun fact: a few years ago they did often bring only one new part on many races when the drivers were Bottas and Massa. Nobody complained. This is not even happening right now, and yet...



#5266 Clatter

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:10

And this is all Kubica fans are saying all the time. That new parts are going to George, and worse to Robert. So Georges car is going faster and faster and Roberts only if there is enought parts for him. So there is no conspiracy. It is the fact now. Thank you for admiring it.

 


Doesn't mean it's happened at every race though.

#5267 Murdoch

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:14

If Robert would get parts, he would go quicker.

But he does not, so he do not.

 

The team will know the advantage the parts give.

 

So if he could go quicker, they would know, and he would get the parts as it would benefit the team.

 

Even my 6 year old son can grasp this.



#5268 Krr

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:17

When has Williams produced upgrades only for one car? They have this weekend one new front wing and neither driver will get it in the race. Otherwise all upgrades so far this season were applied to both cars. According to you guys logic they wouldnt bother to produce upgrades for Kubica and just produce more for George, but clearly that's not what is happening.

If it's not about upgrades then what else? Age of parts? Irrelevant for most of the part, besides that nothing indicates that Kubica gets all the old parts.

 

Nobody said Kubica did not get the same upgrades, sometimes it could about timing also. 1 race difference makes 1 race advantage if upgrade works.

 

Since age of parts does not matter then why giving the FW from Robert's car to George? Obvioulsy age of part matters big time.

 

Nothing indicates that Kubica gets all old part? Oh please.



#5269 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:21

All I am trying to say is that parts allocation politics when short between the drivers becomes clear.

 

Obviously at this point of the year the quicker driver/Robert not staying in the team explanation is the easiest and somehow correct. 

 

But also what becomes clear is that they have been short in that ascpect from the very begining, and the most probable answer for the question who always got new/fresher parts first is obviously George.

 

What I am not saying it is unusual. Yes, you cannot split the part of half, you need to make a choice, that is for sure. But I would bet my finger that George had the priority from the very begining, which made his life easier/Kubica life harder. FW here, suspension there, bits here, bits there, tenth here, tenth there and even though probably George would still come on top, the picture surely would not be so brutal as it is looking today. 

That's complete speculation, though.  There's still the inconvenient truth that when George got given Robert's car he went quicker still, which clearly can't be blamed on equipment.  Basically every indicator we have shows that Robert is the slower driver and all the stuff about what may or may not have happened with parts etc doesn't really change that.  It just comes across as looking for excuses but the hard truth is that Robert wasn't quick enough.

 

That's not the same as saying he was useless, BTW.  For all we know he could have been very good technically and his feedback was worth something to the team.  But in terms of racing he wasn't up to scratch and I don't see how all these red herrings changes that



#5270 Beri

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:21

If Robert would get parts, he would go quicker.

But he does not, so he do not.


Kubica will never go quicker. He has had 16 races to prove himself. He hasn't done anything close in resemblance to that.
He doesn't deserve a full time race seat in F1. Even Latifi would (most likely) do a better job. Period.

The hardest thing to do for people like you, is accept those facts and learn to live with them. That would prevent you from not blowing everything out of proportion and to find hilarious excuses to defend his woeful year.

#5271 Krr

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:24

The team will know the advantage the parts give.

 

So if he could go quicker, they would know, and he would get the parts as it would benefit the team.

 

Even my 6 year old son can grasp this.

 

This year, this car, whatever they give can only make a difference between the car nr. 63 and car nr. 88 thus benefit one of the drivers. And the politics is being clearly ilustrated when one car crashed 3 FW in 2 weekends (not of his fault) and it is the second car who gets probably the oldest FW they posses.



#5272 Krr

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:31

Kubica will never go quicker. He has had 16 races to prove himself. He hasn't done anything close in resemblance to that.
He doesn't deserve a full time race seat in F1. Even Latifi would (most likely) do a better job. Period.

The hardest thing to do for people like you, is accept those facts and learn to live with them. That would prevent you from not blowing everything out of proportion and to find hilarious excuses to defend his woeful year.

If you would read some of my previous posts carefully and to the end you would find that I accepted this long time ago and can live perfectly well with him being slower then his teammate.

 

What is blown out of propotion are the accusation of some mistery conspiracy theories, which have been explain many times, being nothing more then an F1 team has lost its way and is not able to provide enough parts for both cars and chooses 1 of the drivers to have priority, and not even hiding with it now, and the fact that such hard choices can make a picture we are seeing not fully clear.


Edited by Krr, 11 October 2019 - 10:33.


#5273 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:33

Nobody said Kubica did not get the same upgrades, sometimes it could about timing also. 1 race difference makes 1 race advantage if upgrade works.

 

Since age of parts does not matter then why giving the FW from Robert's car to George? Obvioulsy age of part matters big time.

 

Nothing indicates that Kubica gets all old part? Oh please.

The time differences were often quite substantial, though.  Are we saying that every upgrade that was put on George's car - even assuming that he always got them first - was a major one?  I mean in Australia, the first race, Robert finished a lap down on George (I'm ignoring qualifying because Robert got a puncture), as he did in Bahrain.  Was that down to an inferior car?



#5274 Paco

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:42

Krr... again zero proof anything you spew about unequalness. If anything, Robert got the advantage this weekend by having the FW for Fp2. Just stop with this unequalness, there is ZERO proof of it. With lots of proof that they are treated fairly and equal as much as possible as every other team does. You have gotten yourself so worked up you can not see the truth any longer. Below is direct from Williams Twitter. Tell me how there is any conspiracy against Robert in what they did on track today with the new FW or anything else for that matter?????

“We spent time today evaluating a new front wing concept, which we did on both cars. We collected some useful data in a range of conditions and are starting to get a good sense of how the car’s behaviour has changed.

Robert ran the new wing throughout FP2 and felt an improvement over the baseline. We will review all the data tonight before deciding how and when to continue the experiments.”

#5275 Murdoch

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:50

If I were a team boss and I had only one go faster part available (which happens in other teams, not just Williams), who should I give it to?

 

The better driver, or the slower driver?

 

I would opt for the better driver personally.



#5276 Paco

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:15

If I were a team boss and I had only one go faster part available (which happens in other teams, not just Williams), who should I give it to?

The better driver, or the slower driver?

I would opt for the better driver personally.

Of course but even then the Team didn’t choose that route and gave the wing to George in FP1 and to Robert in FP2.

There so much lies perpetuated here it’s beyond nonsense. All this FW crap started for no reason as it’s meaningless anyway as I stated as it doesn’t seem to be a full package update so it’s advantage is only in understanding how the aero load changes in the front of the car cause it probably to be an aero mess downstream as it isn’t integrated fully until next season. Hence why they still over 3 sec off and still way back. It’s a Test wing for a new proof of concept and yet some here losing their minds thinking of my guy disadvantaged not having it because of the poor season he’s had. I would say more but probably get a ban so going to leave it that. It is all baseless, without merit. On a weekend where Williams easily and justifiably could have bolted it on and kept it on to Russell’s car... they went the fair route as they always have this season.

Edited by Paco, 11 October 2019 - 11:39.


#5277 Krr

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:26

Of course but even then the Team didn’t choose that route and gave the wing to George in FP1 and to Robert in FP2.
 

Do you even read before geting involved?

 

The whole FW issue I am discussing is not about "new" wing they have both tested in FPs. This one is mainly to eveluate 2020 prospects as explained by the team, and it's unlikley any of the drivers will be driving with it comes sunday, should be rather used as spare.

 

The main issue is that AMuS reported Robert will be driving with the old FW, the one they used in pre-season testing. That means that fresher, that he drove with in Russia will most likely be on George car's, despite it was him who broke 3 FW last 2 weekends. What does it mean? For you probably nothing anyway.


Edited by Krr, 11 October 2019 - 11:27.


#5278 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:34

Albert Fraberga (I may have got his name wrong) posted a picture the other day of a new wing that Williams have brought to Suzuka, so clearly they are able to produce new parts, but they are having to be economical about it.

 

There will be a reason Kubica is using an older specification front wing that we are not aware of. It could be something as simple as the previous specification not being suited to the Suzuka track and the downforce required. It could be that Williams are doing similar to Haas and reverting to previous set ups to try and better understand the issues they are having with the car.

 

Only one wing being produced is sensible, because it would be incredibly wasteful to produce two of them if it was flawed and didn't work as intended. We see teams doing this all of the time, running new parts on only one car so they can compare them to how other parts, on the same track in the same conditions.

 

What is highly unlikely is that they are being taken from Kubica for the other car, this is just a conspiracy theory from deluded fans who can't accept that Kubica is now just an average driver who no longer has what it takes to be fast in F1. In creating these conspiracy theories, irrational Kubica fans are just highlighting how little knowledge they have about F1



#5279 DarthWillie

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:35

But according to Robert they were never in this situation, because they didn't break wings. So no not a shred of evidence someone got preferential treatment

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#5280 Paco

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:43

Do you even read before geting involved?

The whole FW issue I am discussing is not about "new" wing they have both tested in FPs. This one is mainly to eveluate 2020 prospects as explained by the team, and it's unlikley any of the drivers will be driving with it comes sunday, should be rather used as spare.

The main issue is that AMuS reported Robert will be driving with the old FW, the one they used in pre-season testing. That means that fresher, that he drove with in Russia will most likely be on George car's, despite it was him who broke 3 FW last 2 weekends. What does it mean? For you probably nothing anyway.


So what if it’s old spec? Lots and lots of drivers have taken old spec wings, it happens all the time. Again a Zero story and doesn’t mean a thing. Top teams have wings made for certain circuit characteristics, maybe that will be an advantage if Russell is using a more dF wing and Robert old spec is less downforce etc depending on the circuit. It’s making issue from a non issue.

#5281 Paco

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:45

But according to Robert they were never in this situation, because they didn't break wings. So no not a shred of evidence someone got preferential treatment


Exactly and even then it doesn’t matter, driver break wings all the time and then the teams use old ones. It’s just noise from a fan who can’t wrap his head around that this f1 and that’s how it goes.

Edited by Paco, 11 October 2019 - 13:44.


#5282 Krr

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:49

So what if it’s old spec? Lots and lots of drivers have taken old spec wings, it happens all the time. Again a Zero story and doesn’t mean a thing. Top teams have wings made for certain circuit characteristics, maybe that will be an advantage if Russell is using a more dF wing and Robert old spec is less downforce etc depending on the circuit. It’s making issue from a non issue.


That's of it that if 1 car breaks 3 wings, normally that car get's older spec/older part, not take newer spec/fresher part from the other car, which did nothing wrong. How can anyone not get, is beyond me.

#5283 rkrp

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:50

 

What is highly unlikely is that they are being taken from Kubica for the other car, this is just a conspiracy theory from deluded fans who can't accept that Kubica is now just an average driver who no longer has what it takes to be fast in F1. In creating these conspiracy theories, irrational Kubica fans are just highlighting how little knowledge they have about F1

Quite opposite sir. Saying such things highlights how little knowledge have people who cannot accept how F1 works. There's a lot of politics involved. There is spying, there's stealing, some race was rigged by teams. Only some of the inside information is revealed, almost never in real time. What we know for sure is that we know next to nothing about how things really are inside. 

After Alonso won Singapore Kubica said on the radio it doesn't seem right. He didn't say it out loud until 2019. But if there was no witness we wouldn't know about crashgate at all. For over a year it was just a conspiracy theory :)

 


Edited by rkrp, 11 October 2019 - 11:54.


#5284 Paco

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:55

That's of it that if 1 car breaks 3 wings, normally that car get's older spec/older part, not take newer spec/fresher part from the other car, which did nothing wrong. How can anyone not get, is beyond me.

That’s not how it goes.. only you seem to think that. If your alone or in the minority of that opinion then perhaps it’s opinion that is off.. being a lone voice doesn’t make it more correct.

And again, how do you know if the old spec isn’t more appropriate for this circuit and Robert is actually having a slight advantage just he did if fp3 is cancelled and maybe had a fast front end of the car in fp2.

That’s the point, you only seem to think old spec means a disadvantage... that isn’t always the case. Roman showed that with mid year driving Melbourne spec Haas. Vettel last year bolted on old spec for some races when the floor didn’t work as expected. Add in the fact front wings can be circuit specific or circuit type specific so the old spec may be the faster spec or nearly equivalent depending on how the balanced their aero loads in Japan. Do have any proof if Robert runs the old spec that’s its the slower spec and a huge disadvantage?

You keep going on about it with no proof it’s a detriment. If it is more draggy and more downforce and it rains on Sunday that will play to his advantage. Do you get it’s not all clear as you try and make it out to be and so unfair..

Edited by Paco, 11 October 2019 - 11:58.


#5285 pdac

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:56

Kubica is not in Williams next year. Russell is. Williams need to continue to try to move forward. Not only is Russell the better bet to get the best out of the car, he's also their driver going forward into next year. For me it's a no-brainer that where there are any choices to be made, Williams would now favour Russell. In fact, they would probably be best thinking more about car 88 than Kubica.



#5286 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:00

That's of it that if 1 car breaks 3 wings, normally that car get's older spec/older part, not take newer spec/fresher part from the other car, which did nothing wrong. How can anyone not get, is beyond me.

The report in the link you provided didn't mention anything about Robert's FW being given to George.  Do you have anything with a bit more depth that shows them doing this?  Just want to be sure there are no further assumptions being made



#5287 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:02

Quite opposite sir. Saying such things highlights how little knowledge have people who cannot accept how F1 works. There's a lot of politics involved. There is spying, there's stealing, some race was rigged by teams. Only some of the inside information is revealed, almost never in real time. What we know for sure is that we know next to nothing about how things really are inside. 

After Alonso won Singapore Kubica said on the radio it doesn't seem right. He didn't say it out loud until 2019. But if there was no witness we wouldn't know about crashgate at all. For over a year it was just a conspiracy theory :)

 

and it remained that way until proven otherwise, after which it became fact.  But that doesn't mean every wild unfounded rumour is fact



#5288 Paco

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:03

Kubica is not in Williams next year. Russell is. Williams need to continue to try to move forward. Not only is Russell the better bet to get the best out of the car, he's also their driver going forward into next year. For me it's a no-brainer that where there are any choices to be made, Williams would now favour Russell. In fact, they would probably be best thinking more about car 88 than Kubica.

Yup and I’d add, as some of Roberts fans put it even though I doubt it is as clear he made his presser, Robert chose to leave right Kubica fans, so what does Williams owe him anything now.

I doubt that was the case and the writing was on the wall and it was all orchestrated but even then everyone knew he was never going to be there next year. If Williams was surprised he announced it when and how he did, then yeah they could easily be peeves and say screw you buddy, you announced the decision in your own way so we owe you diddly squat and he’s even lucky to have gotten a go with the new wing.

Since he won’t announce what he is doing next year, all the more reason to not share anything with him as he could take it to another team..

so he should be blocked and banned from everything other then showing on Friday for runs with a static spec car and asked to lap.

That would be the Fair thing to do after he quit (couch cough) the team.

Is that not the fair thing to do from a quitter that gives up when things are tough???? Or from a guy that announces he is leaving whichbthe team would already had made up its mind in and then throw shades at you and tells the world I quit not you let me go and puts in a difficult spot of not talking bad about poor Kubica...

Yes and Williams are unfair and allow the quitter a chance at running a 1 off test wing..

Yes Williams are unfair and allowing him to see out his race contract vs swapping in another driver..

Do you Kubica fans not see there is nothing unfair going on with anything at Williams and such is life with a bad car and focusing next year add in a driver that quits cause it’s hard to be in a slow car...

Edited by Paco, 11 October 2019 - 12:10.


#5289 rkrp

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:10

and it remained that way until proven otherwise, after which it became fact.  But that doesn't mean every wild unfounded rumour is fact

agreed. We are just different on how we see this whole Kubica-Williams situation. For me it's not unfounded, for you it is. Yet i tend to think not a single Kubica supporter uses invectives towards other side. Cheers.



#5290 Paco

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:13

agreed. We are just different on how we see this whole Kubica-Williams situation. For me it's not unfounded, for you it is. Yet i tend to think not a single Kubica supporter uses invectives towards other side. Cheers.

So the guy insults them repeatedly, quits (if fans believe his press conference) when the going gets tough and does nothing but give them headaches and they owe him something????? Why???? He whines constantly and does little to prop up the team and is slow.. yet Williams remains professional towards him and you see that as an issue.

Few other teams would put up with that crap for a day let alone for months and months.

Edited by Paco, 11 October 2019 - 12:14.


#5291 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:14

agreed. We are just different on how we see this whole Kubica-Williams situation. For me it's not unfounded, for you it is. Yet i tend to think not a single Kubica supporter uses invectives towards other side. Cheers.

I don't see many invectives being used either way tbh.  But it's not unreasonable for people to ask for more than wild speculation when making claims, don't you think?



#5292 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:14

V1 is standard wheel, but modified for Kubica. Russell has same V1 wheel but modified for him. The wheel is always modify for each driver. 

V1 is not a standard wheel, the wheel V1 is based on is the standard wheel.

 

V1 has modifications specific for Kubica. Most noticeably how the paddles are set up on the rear of the wheel and the hand grip. Just because Russell also has had modifications carried out from the standard wheel does not stop this being a wheel modified specifically for Kubica.

 

Both drivers will have steering wheels based on the same base design, the same will apply to every team and driver. They are not designing and providing totally bespoke wheels for each of their drivers. Essentially you are arguing a point that doesn't exist, because it is something that you have created in your attempt to claim there is a conspiracy against Kubica.

 

Basically, this is just one of the long line of excuses Kubica fans have as to why he is slower than his rookie team mate, all of which absolve his performance from being the cause.



#5293 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:19

If Robert would get parts, he would go quicker.

But he does not, so he do not.

It's a shame the words of blind fanatics don't convert into speed on track, otherwise Kubica would be driving that car to pole 5 seconds faster than anyone else and he would be winning races multiple laps ahead of any of the other drivers on the track.



#5294 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:22

All I am trying to say is that parts allocation politics when short between the drivers becomes clear.

 

Obviously at this point of the year the quicker driver/Robert not staying in the team explanation is the easiest and somehow correct. 

 

But also what becomes clear is that they have been short in that ascpect from the very begining, and the most probable answer for the question who always got new/fresher parts first is obviously George.

 

What I am not saying it is unusual. Yes, you cannot split the part of half, you need to make a choice, that is for sure. But I would bet my finger that George had the priority from the very begining, which made his life easier/Kubica life harder. FW here, suspension there, bits here, bits there, tenth here, tenth there and even though probably George would still come on top, the picture surely would not be so brutal as it is looking today. 

Classic case of confirmation bias here.



#5295 rkrp

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:23

I don't see many invectives being used either way tbh.  But it's not unreasonable for people to ask for more than wild speculation when making claims, don't you think?

Yeah, but you cannot expect for people to deliver any hard evidence like contract details or team briefs transcripts. All there is is assumptions and race results. And we all know it's not the whole story. For example I wouldn't say Russell is worse than Kubica because Robert has one WDC point while George has none.



#5296 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:25

Nobody said Kubica did not get the same upgrades, sometimes it could about timing also. 1 race difference makes 1 race advantage if upgrade works.

 

Since age of parts does not matter then why giving the FW from Robert's car to George? Obvioulsy age of part matters big time.

 

Nothing indicates that Kubica gets all old part? Oh please.

Has this nonsense actually been confirmed? Or is it just the nonsensical ramblings of a delusional minority?



#5297 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:32

Yeah, but you cannot expect for people to deliver any hard evidence like contract details or team briefs transcripts. All there is is assumptions and race results. And we all know it's not the whole story. For example I wouldn't say Russell is worse than Kubica because Robert has one WDC point while George has none.

But even assumptions generally have a trigger.  Here it just seems to be that people don't believe Robert can be that much slower therefore something underhand must be going on.  But no-one has yet been able to explain why it is that George went quicker even when he drove Kubica's car.  It just seems to be conveniently ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative.

 

And the level of accusations basically exonerate Robert of any responsibility for performance and place the entire blame for the situation on Williams.  Again convenient for him but hardly fair I think.  In the absence of even the tiniest suggestion of evidence the simplest explanation is often the correct one.  And the simplest explanation here is that Robert just isn't getting the best out of the Williams.



#5298 Marklar

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 12:44

Nobody said Kubica did not get the same upgrades, sometimes it could about timing also. 1 race difference makes 1 race advantage if upgrade works.

Since age of parts does not matter then why giving the FW from Robert's car to George? Obvioulsy age of part matters big time.

Nothing indicates that Kubica gets all old part? Oh please.

Dude, Haas is quicker on Melbourne spec than on current spec. Age only matters if it's damaged or an real upgrade. You are confusing this big time with engine mileage where age matters.

Why is Williams giving Russell the fresher front wing? Are they even doing this? It's based on Kubica saying that the front wing he will race is from pre-season testing, but Williams hasnt upgraded the front wing all year considerably. How old was the front wing they used in Sochi? All this talk is worth nothing without context. And even if they give him the fresher parts why does that matter? It's not like the parts get shipped as a property of a certain car? And if it's only 0.00001 % less likely to break than the other one then hell give it to the quicker guy so that it doesnt hit you in a good position. This however doesnt mean that Kubica has to deal with inferior material, that's BS. I'm sure the variation engines have based on production (ca. 5 hp) have a bigger impact than this. It's a theory that even if it was true would barely change the reality.

If Williams is screwing Kubica so much in Russell's favour like you guys want to believe they would - as I said - move all their resources to Russell's car and seldom provide Kubica with upgrades. That isnt even *that* unusual as mentioned. Plenty of teams leave the 2nd driver behind on schedule in terms of upgrades. The fact that Williams, despite them having the financial excuse to do that, is not doing this but is by far the team most slatered for supposedly favouring a driver in terms of material is objectively bloody ridiculous.

Edited by Marklar, 11 October 2019 - 12:46.


#5299 milestone 11

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 13:24

After Alonso won Singapore Kubica said on the radio it doesn't seem right. He didn't say it out loud until 2019. But if there was no witness we wouldn't know about crashgate at all. For over a year it was just a conspiracy theory :)

Mark Hughes said this in his race report 24hours after the race.

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#5300 rkrp

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 13:34

Mark Hughes said this in his race report 24hours after the race.

But it's if we get to know what was going on with Robert's car there will be plenty publications that supported it. 
And let's face it. Alonso's unusual strategy that day would only work if sc would be released exactly on that very lap. It wasn't that hard to figure it out.
But still, it was just a "conspiracy theory" till Nelson revealed it a year after. And if Briatore would keep this guy in the team - it would be a theory to this day.
Did i mention I really hate this conspiracy theory term? well, i do.