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Williams: Drivers, management and other folks at Grove 2019


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#5801 SenorSjon

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Posted 21 October 2019 - 14:19

Can we get this thread off the subject of Kubica and instead focus on next year ? Assume drivers will be Russell and Latifi, but can we expect anything better from Williams ? and if so, what and how ?

 

It is sad to think that in recent years Williams has essentially wasted all the money they have had from PDVSA, Martini, Unilever, Mercedes (for Bottas transfer as well as for Russell), Stroll, Sirotkin and Kubica; pretty sobering if you are the Latifi family. 

 

The topic is 2019, so you have to endure this for another couple of races.



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#5802 GarilNarbe

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 06:41

MikeF1 has worked at high level of motorsport for years and I would never bet on him not understanding anything or being unaware of some kind of a point a random poster on the forum can allegedly see better than him.

I didn't wrote he doesn't understand F1. I wrote he doesn't understand Kubicas fans point. And why I wrote above. 



#5803 Beri

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 08:21

I didn't wrote he doesn't understand F1. I wrote he doesn't understand Kubicas fans point. And why I wrote above.


You are just bitter. That quote summed it up perfectly.

#5804 WilliamsF1Fan

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 10:04

Latifi getting the first of his three in a row FP1 sessions this weekend.  He has Kubica's car this weekend and Russell's next weekend.  

 

Oddly he is the most experienced of the 3 drivers around Mexico having driven in FP1 last year too.


Edited by WilliamsF1Fan, 22 October 2019 - 10:05.


#5805 TecnoRacing

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 10:59

I'll quote someone from another forum, who nailed it with this comment:

MikeF1: What has William's done wrong for him really? Hes been a dick from day one so they haven't had nice things to say in return, he's blamed every ounce of his lack of pace on nothing but the sheer implication that there is a larger conspiracy and uses the negative William's public opinion to great effect.

 

Yea, this MikeF1 sounds like a true professional :drunk: 



#5806 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 11:20

If he is as good of a driver as some claim he is, he should be getting everything out of the car and pushing it to it's performance limit, something he is failing to do.



#5807 Marklar

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 11:33

Yea, this MikeF1 sounds like a true professional :drunk: 

Yeah, but the Williams bashfest and unfounded conspiracy theories are fine  :up:

There is very little Kubica bashing going on, there are maybe two users who genuinely have something against the guy, everyone else is just reacting to the ridiculous claims made by his fans (and lately him) here. Without this I'm sure this thread would be very civil, but alas, it isnt.



#5808 ForzaFormula

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 11:41

.

If he is as good of a driver as some claim he is, he should be getting everything out of the car and pushing it to it's performance limit, something he is failing to do.

But those claiming that are forgetting that he was barely a better driver than heidfeld, infact nick beat him 2-1 on seasons and on points during their time as team mates, and nick was seen as a average but solid and midfield driver. Add to that kubica s disability’s and loosing massively to a rookie it’s clear he cannot compete at the top level of motorsports. Another experienced driver next to russell would of easily been on pace with him in this williams.

Edited by ForzaFormula, 22 October 2019 - 11:42.


#5809 Marklar

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 11:55

But those claiming that are forgetting that he was barely a better driver than heidfeld, infact nick beat him 2-1 on seasons and on points during their time as team mates, and nick was seen as a average but solid and midfield driver. Add to that kubica s disability’s and loosing massively to a rookie it’s clear he cannot compete at the top level of motorsports. Another experienced driver next to russell would of easily been on pace with him in this williams.

 

I'm not that sure about that.

It could be of course that Kubica is entirely hopeless post-accident and be nowhere to any driver on the current F1 grid, thus Russell's performances are nothing special and it is like you say. It could be also that he is on the same level as some other drivers (like Stroll) and Russell is just that good. It's very difficult to say because Kubica is a very hard to quantify variable. When Leclerc usually outpaced Ericsson by 4-5 tenths you knew how good he was because prior to being paired up to Leclerc Ericsson was running talented drivers like Nasr and Wehrlein very close, so he was a solid benchmark. Kubica might for all we know be a similarly good benchmark, but nobody can know.


Edited by Marklar, 22 October 2019 - 12:03.


#5810 TecnoRacing

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 12:03

Yeah, but the Williams bashfest and unfounded conspiracy theories are fine  :up:

There is very little Kubica bashing going on, there are maybe two users who genuinely have something against the guy, everyone else is just reacting to the ridiculous claims made by his fans (and lately him) here. Without this I'm sure this thread would be very civil, but alas, it isnt.

 

Yea, I'd say 'bashing' a corporate entity such as Williams is indeed less distasteful that focusing all on one individual...especially when their has been near zero information coming from management since the start of the season.


Edited by Risil, 22 October 2019 - 21:42.


#5811 MaGiK

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 12:47

I'm not that sure about that.

It could be of course that Kubica is entirely hopeless post-accident and be nowhere to any driver on the current F1 grid, thus Russell's performances are nothing special and it is like you say. It could be also that he is on the same level as some other drivers (like Stroll) and Russell is just that good. It's very difficult to say because Kubica is a very hard to quantify variable. When Leclerc usually outpaced Ericsson by 4-5 tenths you knew how good he was because prior to being paired up to Leclerc Ericsson was running talented drivers like Nasr and Wehrlein very close, so he was a solid benchmark. Kubica might for all we know be a similarly good benchmark, but nobody can know.


If rumors about Haas are true, it will be interesting to see Roberts laptimes in midfield car next to solid drivers like Mag amd Gro.
I hope he combines it with some racing or rallying though.

#5812 shure

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 12:50

Yea, I'd say 'bashing' a corporate entity such as Williams is indeed less distasteful that focusing all on one individual...especially when their has been near zero information coming from management since the start of the season.

 

Stop trying to sugarcoat it - this thread is full of dilettantes, revisionists, and outright haters. And when you have mods upvoting comments in which a driver is being called 'a dick from day one', it is also a problem.

Have you considered that Williams' lack of criticism for their driver compared to their driver's criticism of them is a major factor in why people feel that criticism of them is unwarranted?  If Robert is making the (unsubstantiated) claims then he should also expect some pushback on that from people who expect more than vague accusations before bashing anyone.  In short it's his actions (rather than his driving) that are inviting criticism, whereas Williams haven't done anything visible that would warrant the same.

 

I don't see how bashing Williams should be more acceptable than bashing Robert and that's a bit of a cop out really.  Bottom line is if Robert had kept a dignified silence, as Williams have done, then the majority of comments being directed against him on here wouldn't exist



#5813 pdac

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 13:23

Yea, I'd say 'bashing' a corporate entity such as Williams is indeed less distasteful that focusing all on one individual...especially when their has been near zero information coming from management since the start of the season.

 

Stop trying to sugarcoat it - this thread is full of dilettantes, revisionists, and outright haters. And when you have mods upvoting comments in which a driver is being called 'a dick from day one', it is also a problem.

 

Bashing an individual is no more severe than bashing a corporate entity. I agree, that we should not have a bash-fest. This is a discussion thread and as long as those discussing are civil to each other, I don't see why the moderators would need to step in if individuals or corporations are getting a little 'bashed' (unless there is a legal line that is crossed or that there is no contribution to the discussion other than that).


Edited by pdac, 22 October 2019 - 13:23.


#5814 TecnoRacing

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 13:46

Have you considered that Williams' lack of criticism for their driver compared to their driver's criticism of them is a major factor in why people feel that criticism of them is unwarranted?  If Robert is making the (unsubstantiated) claims then he should also expect some pushback on that from people who expect more than vague accusations before bashing anyone.  In short it's his actions (rather than his driving) that are inviting criticism, whereas Williams haven't done anything visible that would warrant the same.

 

I don't see how bashing Williams should be more acceptable than bashing Robert and that's a bit of a cop out really.  Bottom line is if Robert had kept a dignified silence, as Williams have done, then the majority of comments being directed against him on here wouldn't exist

 

Dignified silence? I'd say a deafening silence, indicative of non-existent leadership is more accurate.

There has been absolutely zero commitment (in actions, or even in words) about righting the ship or getting their drivers (or driver) up to speed from the very start of the season.



#5815 Krr

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 14:42

Have you considered that Williams' lack of criticism for their driver compared to their driver's criticism of them is a major factor in why people feel that criticism of them is unwarranted?  If Robert is making the (unsubstantiated) claims then he should also expect some pushback on that from people who expect more than vague accusations before bashing anyone.  In short it's his actions (rather than his driving) that are inviting criticism, whereas Williams haven't done anything visible that would warrant the same.

 

I don't see how bashing Williams should be more acceptable than bashing Robert and that's a bit of a cop out really.  Bottom line is if Robert had kept a dignified silence, as Williams have done, then the majority of comments being directed against him on here wouldn't exist

 

This is the whole point and the problem. Many here are so sure the claims he is making are unsubstanited because he shows no "hard" proofs about it, yet not having anything to prove there is nothing into it but pretty much the same what people ot the other side, like myself, have - words (from the team), trust (in Willimas in that case) and assumptions.

 

Me, I see 2 possibilites, either he is saying the truth (well, not directly, but trying to point out some issues), or as many here thinks, he is trying to put the blame for his slowness on the team, and want to make himself look good for the fans and audience. I choose the first option, because for anyone who follows him closer, it is obvious he could not give a bigger **** to what people think of him, so there is no point for him to do that. If he does, he is liar, which he is not in my opinion. Simple as that.

 

No matter if anyone worked on high level of motorsport or not, it is still the same, he is not inside Williams team at the moment, so has prettymuch the same knowledge about the situation as every other member of the board. Everyone knows how it should work, like MikeF1 pointed out, yes. They should replace suspensions or brake housing every 2-3 races, but what if they do it every 3-5 race?  They also should have the car ready for first day of preseason testing, they should have improve from last year, they should have enough spare parts. Well, they were not ready, did not improve, do not have enough spare parts. This is F1, every small thing matters, the smallest lost of the bodywork stiffness can result in drastic balance change.

 

What is sad, is total, zero, null, nada, benefit of the doubt or even little piece of trust in this guy. Most choose to believe in other posters opinion here instead of listen to the guy for a second who actually is in the team and drive damn thing.


Edited by Krr, 22 October 2019 - 14:45.


#5816 shure

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 15:25

This is the whole point and the problem. Many here are so sure the claims he is making are unsubstanited because he shows no "hard" proofs about it, yet not having anything to prove there is nothing into it but pretty much the same what people ot the other side, like myself, have - words (from the team), trust (in Willimas in that case) and assumptions.

 

Me, I see 2 possibilites, either he is saying the truth (well, not directly, but trying to point out some issues), or as many here thinks, he is trying to put the blame for his slowness on the team, and want to make himself look good for the fans and audience. I choose the first option, because for anyone who follows him closer, it is obvious he could not give a bigger **** to what people think of him, so there is no point for him to do that. If he does, he is liar, which he is not in my opinion. Simple as that.

 

No matter if anyone worked on high level of motorsport or not, it is still the same, he is not inside Williams team at the moment, so has prettymuch the same knowledge about the situation as every other member of the board. Everyone knows how it should work, like MikeF1 pointed out, yes. They should replace suspensions or brake housing every 2-3 races, but what if they do it every 3-5 race?  They also should have the car ready for first day of preseason testing, they should have improve from last year, they should have enough spare parts. Well, they were not ready, did not improve, do not have enough spare parts. This is F1, every small thing matters, the smallest lost of the bodywork stiffness can result in drastic balance change.

 

What is sad, is total, zero, null, nada, benefit of the doubt or even little piece of trust in this guy. Most choose to believe in other posters opinion here instead of listen to the guy for a second who actually is in the team and drive damn thing.

One of the problems is that you are mixing up legitimate criticism of Williams' poor financial situation and lack of resources with very definite allegations that somehow Robert is being treated differently to George and that's the part that many are finding hard to swallow as there is not a shred of evidence to support that.  And it's not just Robert's allegations, but a number of fans on here at least tend to put 2+2 together and come up with any number other than 4, which is what makes the debate a little, er, frustrating.

 

Take the FW story.  When it was initially announced that Robert was going to be using the FW from testing in Japan it was immediately assumed by you - without any evidence to back it up - that George was getting the new one and Robert was being given what was left.  But that just wasn't true and it turned out that neither George nor Robert would be using the new FW during the race.  But that didn't stop people on here bashing Williams for it.  And this all came about because Robert said "i will be using the old one" which people on here took to mean "I am the only one who will be using the old one."  And this is the kind of thing that you guys consistently come out with but when the truth is unearthed you just move onto the next unfounded accusation.  Don't you see that poses a credibility problem?  It was the same when Robert accused the team of going back on an agreement to use the new FW which somehow turned into a direct allegation that it was Claire Williams who changed her mind without Robert even mentioning her.  The list goes on.  It's not just what Robert says but the way his fans interpret it and present their assumptions as fact which leads to a lot of unnecessary discussions on here.  If you toned down the accusatory rhetoric then you might find it would lead to a lot fewer contrary posts rebutting your claims.  



#5817 Krr

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 17:33

One of the problems is that you are mixing up legitimate criticism of Williams' poor financial situation and lack of resources with very definite allegations that somehow Robert is being treated differently to George and that's the part that many are finding hard to swallow as there is not a shred of evidence to support that.  And it's not just Robert's allegations, but a number of fans on here at least tend to put 2+2 together and come up with any number other than 4, which is what makes the debate a little, er, frustrating.

 

Take the FW story.  When it was initially announced that Robert was going to be using the FW from testing in Japan it was immediately assumed by you - without any evidence to back it up - that George was getting the new one and Robert was being given what was left.  But that just wasn't true and it turned out that neither George nor Robert would be using the new FW during the race.  But that didn't stop people on here bashing Williams for it.  And this all came about because Robert said "i will be using the old one" which people on here took to mean "I am the only one who will be using the old one."  And this is the kind of thing that you guys consistently come out with but when the truth is unearthed you just move onto the next unfounded accusation.  Don't you see that poses a credibility problem?  It was the same when Robert accused the team of going back on an agreement to use the new FW which somehow turned into a direct allegation that it was Claire Williams who changed her mind without Robert even mentioning her.  The list goes on.  It's not just what Robert says but the way his fans interpret it and present their assumptions as fact which leads to a lot of unnecessary discussions on here.  If you toned down the accusatory rhetoric then you might find it would lead to a lot fewer contrary posts rebutting your claims.  

 

That is I admit, hard for me to understand, as on the one side you are saying that criticism on Williams lack of resources or financial struggles are legitimate, but on the other side you are refusing to connect it with what guys like me believe is happening. I do not see how lack/shortage of something cannot hurt someone more. If you have 1 spare ticket to the theatre and 2 friends who want to go, in the end you need to choose one who goes with you, and the other you will maybe take to the next one or later or whatever. 

 

You bring the FW case, ok then. First of all, you did not read what I have wrote. I have never said that George will be using new one (experimental for 2020), but that he will be using the one Robert had on his car when the team retired him in Russia, and Robert will get what is left as you said, meaning old, from preseason testing. My evidence for that is Robert saying so clearly to the press that he will be using this old one, and that is all evidence I need. I simply do not believe that he goes there for press days throwing lies every weekend, as many seems to do. If what he said was true, then that is clear example of weird treatement there, because the one who get the older, or even oldest possible FW, should be George in my view. What would be the reason of giving Kubica this one from preseason, other that the one he got in Russia being given to George? That whole point was made before the "new" front issue came up on sunday afternoon. And not permiting him to run the "new" one even though it gave him better feeling and advantage is also the result of them struggling with resources and finance, so yes, this problems affects him whether it was plan to run this wing or not. There was an element that would possibly make one of the cars faster, but they did not use it. That is not what heatlhy team does. 

 

Anyway I do not think going over this again will make me or you change your mind of what is/is not going on. I just hope that one day we will know more about it, one way or another.

 

On the different topic, Robert was in Poland last 2 days, and there is interesting quote, which brings a bit of light on the end of 2017. He was asked about his future as usual, and his answer was that he knows some things, but until it is 100% confirmed, there is no poin in discussing it, which was supported by an argument in the story of the situation he had been in, that on one day there were press annoumcement ready about his future to be released at 11am, but at 10:30 he got a call that things have changed. By this he was reffering to the Sirotkin geting the seat for 2018 instead of him. He said it already in the past that he was 99% sure he will be racing in 2018 but we all know what happened. As I recall, he was not supported by Orlen at this time, and Williams was ready to sign him anyway.


Edited by Krr, 22 October 2019 - 17:40.


#5818 Counterbalance

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 17:52

That is I admit, hard for me to understand, as on the one side you are saying that criticism on Williams lack of resources or financial struggles are legitimate, but on the other side you are refusing to connect it with what guys like me believe is happening. I do not see how lack/shortage of something cannot hurt someone more. If you have 1 spare ticket to the theatre and 2 friends who want to go, in the end you need to choose one who goes with you, and the other you will maybe take to the next one or later or whatever. 

 

You bring the FW case, ok then. First of all, you did not read what I have wrote. I have never said that George will be using new one (experimental for 2020), but that he will be using the one Robert had on his car when the team retired him in Russia, and Robert will get what is left as you said, meaning old, from preseason testing. My evidence for that is Robert saying so clearly to the press that he will be using this old one, and that is all evidence I need. I simply do not believe that he goes there for press days throwing lies every weekend, as many seems to do. If what he said was true, then that is clear example of weird treatement there, because the one who get the older, or even oldest possible FW, should be George in my view. What would be the reason of giving Kubica this one from preseason, other that the one he got in Russia being given to George? That whole point was made before the "new" front issue came up on sunday afternoon. And not permiting him to run the "new" one even though it gave him better feeling and advantage is also the result of them struggling with resources and finance, so yes, this problems affects him whether it was plan to run this wing or not. There was an element that would possibly make one of the cars faster, but they did not use it. That is not what heatlhy team does. 

 

Anyway I do not think going over this again will make me or you change your mind of what is/is not going on. I just hope that one day we will know more about it, one way or another.

 

On the different topic, Robert was in Poland last 2 days, and there is interesting quote, which brings a bit of light on the end of 2017. He was asked about his future as usual, and his answer was that he knows some things, but until it is 100% confirmed, there is no poin in discussing it, which was supported by an argument in the story of the situation he had been in, that on one day there were press annoumcement ready about his future to be released at 11am, but at 10:30 he got a call that things have changed. By this he was reffering to the Sirotkin geting the seat for 2018 instead of him. He said it already in the past that he was 99% sure he will be racing in 2018 but we all know what happened. As I recall, he was not supported by Orlen at this time, and Williams was ready to sign him anyway.

 

So you're basically saying Kubica's word is gospel, and Russel should be given older parts. That would work out great for your narrative. A narrative which I may add, is largely unsubstantiated, seeming to solely rely on the word of someone who is quite frankly lucky to be even occupying a seat in F1, least of all complaining about it. I await with eager anticipation what excuses will be used this weekend if, as is usually the case Kubica is well and truly bested by Russell.

 

This constant bemoaning and denigration of Williams, although somewhat deserved due to lack of pace, is most certainly not warranted due to their lack of professionalism.



#5819 Krr

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 18:12

So you're basically saying Kubica's word is gospel, and Russel should be given older parts. That would work out great for your narrative. A narrative which I may add, is largely unsubstantiated, seeming to solely rely on the word of someone who is quite frankly lucky to be even occupying a seat in F1, least of all complaining about it. I await with eager anticipation what excuses will be used this weekend if, as is usually the case Kubica is well and truly bested by Russell.

 

This constant bemoaning and denigration of Williams, although somewhat deserved due to lack of pace, is most certainly not warranted due to their lack of professionalism.

 

What I am saying is nothing more then I simply believe him in what he is saying, certainly more then in team PR statements.

 

In this particular case, yes,I think George should be given older parts, at it was his car that lost 3 FW in 2 races, not Robert's.

 

No one is landing in F1 seat just because he is "lucky". Money, yes, helpfull, but not luck.

 

I can help you out if that is the case - Kubica will have 1,5h less practice  :kiss:


Edited by Krr, 22 October 2019 - 18:13.


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#5820 Counterbalance

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 18:24

What I am saying is nothing more then I simply believe him in what he is saying, certainly more then in team PR statements.

 

In this particular case, yes,I think George should be given older parts, at it was his car that lost 3 FW in 2 races, not Robert's.

 

No one is landing in F1 seat just because he is "lucky". Money, yes, helpfull, but not luck.

 

I can help you out if that is the case - Kubica will have 1,5h less practice  :kiss:

 

 

And yet you conveniently forget to mention that Russell will have one and a half hour less of practice during the following race weekend. Cherry picking at it's finest.



#5821 Krr

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 18:37

And yet you conveniently forget to mention that Russell will have one and a half hour less of practice during the following race weekend. Cherry picking at it's finest.

Not at all. You asked for this weekend, so I gave you the answer you were eagerly waiting for.

 

Yes, the following weekend George will be disadvantaged the same way Robert will be this weekend, as is any driver when has to give up one of FPs to the other driver.



#5822 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 18:45

What I am saying is nothing more then I simply believe him in what he is saying, certainly more then in team PR statements.

 

 

The problem is that anything that comes from the team or supports the team is dismissed as PR by you, even when it is sound and has actual evidence behind it. Yet all the PR that Robert himself puts out to make himself look good you lap up.



#5823 Jellyfishcake

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 18:48

In someways it's nice of Williams to not sit Kubica (contract depending) out for the remaining FP1, giving Latifi more chance to experience an F1 car before his inevitable introduction next season.

 

With Russel staying on and Kubicia leaving that wouldn't be an unheard scenario 



#5824 Krr

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 19:02

The problem is that anything that comes from the team or supports the team is dismissed as PR by you, even when it is sound and has actual evidence behind it. Yet all the PR that Robert himself puts out to make himself look good you lap up.

In fact yes. I think most of what F1 teams says in their statement is nothing more then PR talk. Nevertheless some of it surely is true, but I am fully aware it will be again named "cherry picking" from me. But well, it works both ways here. All is good and true from the team, until it is not, for example when the team says it was Kubica decision to leave and they were supprised by this, then it suddenly becomes "nice PR touch". 



#5825 Krr

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 19:03

In someways it's nice of Williams to not sit Kubica (contract depending) out for the remaining FP1, giving Latifi more chance to experience an F1 car before his inevitable introduction next season.

 

With Russel staying on and Kubicia leaving that wouldn't be an unheard scenario 

From the very begining it was said Latifi will participate in 6 FPs and that is going to be fulfilled.



#5826 Marklar

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 19:03

In someways it's nice of Williams to not sit Kubica (contract depending) out for the remaining FP1, giving Latifi more chance to experience an F1 car before his inevitable introduction next season.

 

With Russel staying on and Kubicia leaving that wouldn't be an unheard scenario 

Plus it's also very common to not allow departing drivers to run development parts for the upcoming season at all, yet Williams isn't doing that either.

 



#5827 hansmann

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 19:12

Yea, I'd say 'bashing' a corporate entity such as Williams is indeed less distasteful that focusing all on one individual...

 

Stop trying to sugarcoat it - this thread is full of dilettantes, revisionists, and outright haters. 

 

Kubica in regards to F1 is not an individual, he is a person of public interest .

I have never met the man, only know of his public persona , and I understand the difference . I assume most people do too .

 

His public image is what's being dicussed here, and I don't think there is much positive to say about that - be it his absymal performance on track or his unpleasant demeanor towards Williams .

A few revisionists ;) may try and tell a different story, but this doen't seem to fly around here .



#5828 Counterbalance

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 19:12

In fact yes. I think most of what F1 teams says in their statement is nothing more then PR talk. Nevertheless some of it surely is true, but I am fully aware it will be again named "cherry picking" from me. But well, it works both ways here. All is good and true from the team, until it is not, for example when the team says it was Kubica decision to leave and they were supprised by this, then it suddenly becomes "nice PR touch". 

 

Can you please reveal how you seem to have so much inside information that the majority of us posting on this thread are not privy to?



#5829 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 20:01

In fact yes. I think most of what F1 teams says in their statement is nothing more then PR talk. Nevertheless some of it surely is true, but I am fully aware it will be again named "cherry picking" from me. But well, it works both ways here. All is good and true from the team, until it is not, for example when the team says it was Kubica decision to leave and they were supprised by this, then it suddenly becomes "nice PR touch". 

 

Nobody is saying that. The team's struggles are real. However, that doesn't give Kubica carte blanche to blame the team for his own failings, of which there are many.

 

What you're not grasping is that it isn't just the case of believing one side or the other. There are folks who understand how F1 works and are able to suss out what is actually going on based on the evidence.

 

Though I will say one thing, I do think the team is doing a fair bit of PR talk, to not talk down the driver of the No.88 car who is doing an atrocious job.



#5830 ATM

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 20:03

Look guys, the season is nearing its end. Given that it’s unlikely Robert will get a full F1 driver’s seat in the future, I propose all of us we just lay back and truly enjoy the few races we will see him in real action. It has been a remarkable recovery, his story arc is complete, let’s end it gentleman like.

Remember Massa’s, Button’s or Alonso’s bittersweet sentiment at their last races, that feeling that a good friend ia leaving you? Why not have the same nostalgic vibe with Kubica, rather than grinding teeth and chainsaws? Front wing, chassis, steering wheel, whatever, they all will pass but we got to see the guy at the top of his game again. Come on, let’s be gentlemen, I say it again.

#5831 Krr

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 20:09

Can you please reveal how you seem to have so much inside information that the majority of us posting on this thread are not privy to?


I do not have any at all. I just have my own brain, which happens to point me out to the conclusions that are not in line with the one presented by others here. It is not a crime I guess.

#5832 Francesc

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 20:10

Plus it's also very common to not allow departing drivers to run development parts for the upcoming season at all, yet Williams isn't doing that either.


But nobody would want info about what Williams has in pipelane anyway.

#5833 Krr

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 20:13

Nobody is saying that. The team's struggles are real. However, that doesn't give Kubica carte blanche to blame the team for his own failings, of which there are many.

What you're not grasping is that it isn't just the case of believing one side or the other. There are folks who understand how F1 works and are able to suss out what is actually going on based on the evidence.

Though I will say one thing, I do think the team is doing a fair bit of PR talk, to not talk down the driver of the No.88 car who is doing an atrocious job.


Thank you for gently explaining me that I do not understand how F1 works. I will dare not to agree though, if you do not mind.

In the last paragraph you just proved beautifly what I wrote in the post that you have quoted. Well done.

#5834 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 20:30

But nobody would want info about what Williams has in pipelane anyway.

You know that how exactly?

#5835 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 20:36

Thank you for gently explaining me that I do not understand how F1 works. I will dare not to agree though, if you do not mind.

In the last paragraph you just proved beautifly what I wrote in the post that you have quoted. Well done.

You don't have to agree. It is however, abundently clear to those of us that do, that you do not understand how F1 works.

You fail to comprehend common practices, and question their validity, and then expect others to believe that your version of events is first of all sensible, and secondly feasible.

#5836 Krr

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 20:51

You don't have to agree. It is however, abundently clear to those of us that do, that you do not understand how F1 works.

You fail to comprehend common practices, and question their validity, and then expect others to believe that your version of events is first of all sensible, and secondly feasible.

Because it is sensible and feasible. And no, you do not have to agree.

If life taugth me something is that when some group of people agrees to something, it does not automatically means that they are right or fully correct. Sticking to my own reasoning went very well for me so far, so I will stick to that approach.

Sooner or later it will be confirmed who was right here, me or you, along the others who understand how F1 works. I am looking forward to that day, even if I will have to eat my words.

Edited by Krr, 22 October 2019 - 20:53.


#5837 pdac

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 21:36

Because it is sensible and feasible. And no, you do not have to agree.

If life taugth me something is that when some group of people agrees to something, it does not automatically means that they are right or fully correct. Sticking to my own reasoning went very well for me so far, so I will stick to that approach.

Sooner or later it will be confirmed who was right here, me or you, along the others who understand how F1 works. I am looking forward to that day, even if I will have to eat my words.

 

What life has taught me is that when many are disagreeing with me, I need to step out of myself and try to understand why I am wrong. It turns out that some of the time the others have missed something critical and sometimes I have not fully comprehended or else have assumed something that cannot be assumed. It turns out that I'm not always correct.



#5838 shure

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 22:24

That is I admit, hard for me to understand, as on the one side you are saying that criticism on Williams lack of resources or financial struggles are legitimate, but on the other side you are refusing to connect it with what guys like me believe is happening. I do not see how lack/shortage of something cannot hurt someone more. If you have 1 spare ticket to the theatre and 2 friends who want to go, in the end you need to choose one who goes with you, and the other you will maybe take to the next one or later or whatever. 

 

You bring the FW case, ok then. First of all, you did not read what I have wrote. I have never said that George will be using new one (experimental for 2020), but that he will be using the one Robert had on his car when the team retired him in Russia, and Robert will get what is left as you said, meaning old, from preseason testing. My evidence for that is Robert saying so clearly to the press that he will be using this old one, and that is all evidence I need. I simply do not believe that he goes there for press days throwing lies every weekend, as many seems to do. If what he said was true, then that is clear example of weird treatement there, because the one who get the older, or even oldest possible FW, should be George in my view. What would be the reason of giving Kubica this one from preseason, other that the one he got in Russia being given to George? That whole point was made before the "new" front issue came up on sunday afternoon. And not permiting him to run the "new" one even though it gave him better feeling and advantage is also the result of them struggling with resources and finance, so yes, this problems affects him whether it was plan to run this wing or not. There was an element that would possibly make one of the cars faster, but they did not use it. That is not what heatlhy team does. 

 

Anyway I do not think going over this again will make me or you change your mind of what is/is not going on. I just hope that one day we will know more about it, one way or another.

 

On the different topic, Robert was in Poland last 2 days, and there is interesting quote, which brings a bit of light on the end of 2017. He was asked about his future as usual, and his answer was that he knows some things, but until it is 100% confirmed, there is no poin in discussing it, which was supported by an argument in the story of the situation he had been in, that on one day there were press annoumcement ready about his future to be released at 11am, but at 10:30 he got a call that things have changed. By this he was reffering to the Sirotkin geting the seat for 2018 instead of him. He said it already in the past that he was 99% sure he will be racing in 2018 but we all know what happened. As I recall, he was not supported by Orlen at this time, and Williams was ready to sign him anyway.

And this goes to the heart of the problem I have with your reasoning.  Robert has not said that George will be using his wing.  He's only said he will be using an old wing.  But for all we know they are both using an old wing because that particular configuration is better for that particular circuit.  The whole "George is taking Robert's wing" thing is entirely in your head.  This is a prime example of what I am talking about when I'm saying you are adding 2+2 and coming up with anything other than 4.  You did the same with the statement of Robert that the decision was not being taken based on what happened on track and you interpreted that to mean that Claire Williams took it because she was sitting at home in the UK.  You're looking for reasons to blame Williams that don't even exist



#5839 P123

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 22:35

It would be best if Kubica took a walk now- head to his third driver deal with another team. Williams could then stick Latifi in the car for the remaining races, make him an F1 driver as desired by his father, and then sign Hulk for next year to race alongside Russell. With a (hopefully) much better car that could be an excellent line-up.

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#5840 Beri

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 23:07

Yea, this MikeF1 sounds like a true professional :drunk:


His rebuttal is a better one than unfounded criticism towards a story that simply just adds up.
If you can't see that, most likely, his summary is just spot on, then you should ask yourself if you're just not that objective.. or just :drunk: yourself.

#5841 pdac

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 23:25

It would be best if Kubica took a walk now- head to his third driver deal with another team. Williams could then stick Latifi in the car for the remaining races, make him an F1 driver as desired by his father, and then sign Hulk for next year to race alongside Russell. With a (hopefully) much better car that could be an excellent line-up.

 

I'm yet to be convinced that there is a third driver deal ready and waiting for him. Promising statements from Haas, but nothing totally confirmed, I believe.



#5842 Clatter

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 00:20

It would be best if Kubica took a walk now- head to his third driver deal with another team. Williams could then stick Latifi in the car for the remaining races, make him an F1 driver as desired by his father, and then sign Hulk for next year to race alongside Russell. With a (hopefully) much better car that could be an excellent line-up.

He doesnt have the points for a superlicence yet.

#5843 Francesc

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 05:05

You know that how exactly?


Who would from a team 3 seconds off the pace?

#5844 Krr

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 09:27

What life has taught me is that when many are disagreeing with me, I need to step out of myself and try to understand why I am wrong. It turns out that some of the time the others have missed something critical and sometimes I have not fully comprehended or else have assumed something that cannot be assumed. It turns out that I'm not always correct.

And I understand the "other" side here, I really do. I just do not agree. If this kind of discussion would be about any other driver, that I do not know or follow closer I would probably be on "your" side of the argument, although I would not participate on the discussion. I am not always correct, but I believe that on this one I am, on some degree at least. I really hope we will know one day.



#5845 Krr

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 10:14

And this goes to the heart of the problem I have with your reasoning.  Robert has not said that George will be using his wing.  He's only said he will be using an old wing.  But for all we know they are both using an old wing because that particular configuration is better for that particular circuit.  The whole "George is taking Robert's wing" thing is entirely in your head.  This is a prime example of what I am talking about when I'm saying you are adding 2+2 and coming up with anything other than 4.  You did the same with the statement of Robert that the decision was not being taken based on what happened on track and you interpreted that to mean that Claire Williams took it because she was sitting at home in the UK.  You're looking for reasons to blame Williams that don't even exist

Yes, he did not said this, but if you consider we now know they had only 3 "old" FW (plus 1 new), and Kubica said he will be driving the oldest, then it is really simple conclusion that the one he had in Russia will be on George car. Or the second option is that his from Russia was kept as a spare in case of the crash (that happend obviously on Q), but that makes no sense, why keep the one with less milage as a spare?

 

Yes I assumed it was Claire, but again it is really simple conclusion, because who else is there to make this kind of calls? There is no CTO, it was not Frank either nor the track team, as Kubica was adressing them with praises. And I was not the only one to make such conclusion, also editors of motorsportweek for example understood it this way. 


Edited by Krr, 23 October 2019 - 10:15.


#5846 Krr

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 10:24

I'm yet to be convinced that there is a third driver deal ready and waiting for him. Promising statements from Haas, but nothing totally confirmed, I believe.

There will be nothing confirmed until everything is done and signed. If anything will be signed at all obviously. Steiner was at Orlen headquarters last week, as well as someone from RP ealier so there definitely are talks in progress.

 

What is interesting, last 2 days Robert was in Poland and said few times that he is concentrating on racing next year, that this is what he wants to do in the first place, and he does understand why everyone wants to put him as a 3rd/resevere driver. But I guess that has to be taken with an blink of an eye. Few days before first test with Renault he was saying he do not know anything about it, and last year he was saying he does not understand why everybody conect him with Williams, so yeah, during these talks on a closed doors they do not say too much of meaning.



#5847 shure

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 12:05

Yes, he did not said this, but if you consider we now know they had only 3 "old" FW (plus 1 new), and Kubica said he will be driving the oldest, then it is really simple conclusion that the one he had in Russia will be on George car. Or the second option is that his from Russia was kept as a spare in case of the crash (that happend obviously on Q), but that makes no sense, why keep the one with less milage as a spare?

 

Yes I assumed it was Claire, but again it is really simple conclusion, because who else is there to make this kind of calls? There is no CTO, it was not Frank either nor the track team, as Kubica was adressing them with praises. And I was not the only one to make such conclusion, also editors of motorsportweek for example understood it this way. 

It doesn't matter how logical you think it is: it's still an assumption.  That's the point and also the hallmark of many if not all of the accusations leveled against Williams.  Absolutely everything is based on an assumption and that's the issue that many people have with it.  Any time anything happens you look at it with the question "what have Williams done against Robert this time?"  You don't look at the facts and allow them to lead you to a conclusion: you've basically formed a conclusion and look at how you can make the available facts fit it.



#5848 owenmahamilton

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 14:11

So apparently Rokit also make drinks as well as mobile phones.

 

https://www.williams...yXcGPPqDXO12MM4



#5849 WilliamsF1Fan

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 14:22

So apparently Rokit also make drinks as well as mobile phones.

 

https://www.williams...yXcGPPqDXO12MM4

 

Yeah, ROKiT have their fingers in numerous pies it seems.  Great news for the team though.



#5850 Peat

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 14:23

Before any Rich Energy comparisons emerge, ABK Bavarian Lager (a ROKiT drink) is available to actually buy in pubs. I've seen it with my own eyes.