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Williams: Drivers, management and other folks at Grove 2019


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#6251 GarilNarbe

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 11:24

No, because he is better.

Better then who? Bottas? Hamilton? Max?



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#6252 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 11:31

Becouse first of all he should let top driver lap him and after this he could overtake Kubica.
As Russell was in front of Vettel blue flag was at first for him. If you have blue flag, you should let faster driver overtake you, not open DRS.

There is nothing in the rules to disallow the use of DRS in connection to lapped cars, by the lapping car or the lapped car.
If they have DRS they can use it.

The lapped car just has to let the lapping car past.

#6253 GarilNarbe

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 11:44

There is nothing in the rules to disallow the use of DRS in connection to lapped cars, by the lapping car or the lapped car.
If they have DRS they can use it.

The lapped car just has to let the lapping car past.

True, its more in fair play.



#6254 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 12:17

Becouse first of all he should let top driver lap him and after this he could overtake Kubica. 

As Russell was in front of Vettel blue flag was at first for him. If you have blue flag, you should let faster driver overtake you, not open DRS.

 

As long as he didn't impede the driver who was lapping him he can do what he wants. Using a leader coming through to overtake your teammate is very good racecraft.



#6255 shure

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 12:59

He had a penalty and was extra lapped... But why he couldn't unlap during 2nd SC I have no idea.

I think (could be wrong) it's because he was two laps down by then already



#6256 ForzaFormula

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 13:03

Better then who? Bottas? Hamilton? Max?


Kubica by quite a margin.

#6257 AndyPerry

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 13:03

I think (could be wrong) it's because he was two laps down by then already

 


Yup, he was a lap (!) down on Russell by then.

#6258 shure

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 13:06

Becouse first of all he should let top driver lap him and after this he could overtake Kubica. 

As Russell was in front of Vettel blue flag was at first for him. If you have blue flag, you should let faster driver overtake you, not open DRS.

I don't think there's any rule that states this, and looking at how much quicker Russell was after he overtook Kubica it just shows how badly he was being held up.  1.5s per lap over the next three laps!  I don't get why Kubica was so slow?



#6259 GarilNarbe

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 13:28

I think (could be wrong) it's because he was two laps down by then already

at 2nd SC he was lapped once.



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#6260 GarilNarbe

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 13:29

Kubica by quite a margin.

And thats why he is considered to be in Mercedes?



#6261 GarilNarbe

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 13:31

I don't think there's any rule that states this, and looking at how much quicker Russell was after he overtook Kubica it just shows how badly he was being held up.  1.5s per lap over the next three laps!  I don't get why Kubica was so slow?

Because he had hard tyres and his car spec was from the beginning of the season (except front wing) ?


Edited by GarilNarbe, 18 November 2019 - 13:33.


#6262 SenorSjon

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 13:34

Because he had hard tyres and his car spec was from the beginning of the season (except front wing) ?

 

Can't be. He tries to get new parts every other weekend by smashing old bits lately.



#6263 ForzaFormula

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 13:35

And thats why he is considered to be in Mercedes?


Wouldn’t of done him any harm and he’s a Mercedes junior driver so if he progresses well he’s one of the next in line for a Mercedes seat obviously.

#6264 shure

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 13:44

Because he had hard tyres and his car spec was from the beginning of the season (except front wing) ?

I don't think his car spec was that different to Russell's?

 

edit: and they both had the C2 tyres so that can't be it, either


Edited by shure, 18 November 2019 - 13:54.


#6265 Tsarwash

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 14:04

Russell needs to sort that start issue out though, reminds me of Norris who had the same problems. At the front you can't simply get those places back.

Agreed, his starts tend to be much worse than Kubica's. But does it matter, as he knows that he is consistently faster than his teammate in the race, and will get past him eventually, and in fairness, that is all the car is able to manage this year anyhow. Has George actually lost much this year because of his shoddy starts, (compared to his teammate) ? 



#6266 shure

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 14:08

Agreed, his starts tend to be much worse than Kubica's. But does it matter, as he knows that he is consistently faster than his teammate in the race, and will get past him eventually, and in fairness, that is all the car is able to manage this year anyhow. Has George actually lost much this year because of his shoddy starts, (compared to his teammate) ? 

wasn't it the previous race where Russell had had a good shot at challenging the Haas cars if not for the fact that he couldn't get past Kubica?  And judging by the rest of this race he lost a good 20-30s stuck behind Kubica this time, too.  If the Williams had been at all better this season it could have been very costly indeed and Russell definitely needs to sort that out



#6267 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 14:41

Because he had hard tyres and his car spec was from the beginning of the season (except front wing) ?

The only part of the car that was older spec was the floor, according to Ted Kravitz's Notebook yesterday.



#6268 Beri

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 14:42

Because he had hard tyres and his car spec was from the beginning of the season (except front wing) ?


Lovely comment, totally floored by:

I don't think his car spec was that different to Russell's?

edit: and they both had the C2 tyres so that can't be it, either


I do admire your defense of Kubica. I really do. But there is a time to do it and a time just to call it quits and accept the fact that he is not having a race seat in F1. next season. Also accept the fact that he is less than Russell is. Good starts and a single point do not offer any resemblance to anything admirable or good. He has gotten his comeback and he didn't make anything of it. I admire Kubica for his tenacity and his willpower to achieve F1 again. It's a Hollywood story. But he isn't the same driver anymore as he once was. And there is no shame in that.
Butto defend him at all costs, is quite pathetic to witness. Mostly because there is just zero objectiveness in your posts. As said; I admire your will and depth to defend Kubica. But it's done. He's gone. He has had one hell of a bad year and it is time to accept the fact that Russell was, is and will always be better than Kubica 2.0. Period.

#6269 GarilNarbe

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 14:51

Wouldn’t of done him any harm and he’s a Mercedes junior driver so if he progresses well he’s one of the next in line for a Mercedes seat obviously.

Well, that's what I wrote:

 

 

Conversation History:
@Beri: "why is the "guy that is almost always overtaken on his first lap" considered as the next Mercedes driver?"

Me:

1) Becouse he is young and has time to be better.

2) Becouse he is from Mercedes rokkie program.

3) Becouse he is really good driver and has good pace.

4) Considered as the next Mercedes driver by who except british journalists and fans?

 

@Beri: "No, because he is better."

Me: "Better then who? Bottas? Hamilton? Max?" 

YOU: "Kubica by quite a margin."

 

Kubica by quite a margin.

 

 

So you wrote that Russell is  considered as the next Mercedes driver becouse he is better then Kubica.



#6270 Beri

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 14:53

Well, that's what I wrote:


Conversation History:
@Beri: "why is the "guy that is almost always overtaken on his first lap" considered as the next Mercedes driver?"

Me:

1) Becouse he is young and has time to be better.

2) Becouse he is from Mercedes rokkie program.

3) Becouse he is really good driver and has good pace.

4) Considered as the next Mercedes driver by who except british journalists and fans?


@Beri: "No, because he is better."

Me: "Better then who? Bottas? Hamilton? Max?"

YOU: "Kubica by quite a margin."




So you wrote that Russell is considered as the next Mercedes driver becouse he is better then Kubica.


Because he is..

#6271 pdac

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 15:26

Wow, is it so difficult to accept that Kubica is a better starter than Russell and that Russell is better, overall, than Kubica. It seems simple to me.



#6272 Beri

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 15:42

Wow, is it so difficult to accept that Kubica is a better starter than Russell and that Russell is better, overall, than Kubica. It seems simple to me.


That wasn't the issue at hand. So why is it such an important of a point for you to mention?

#6273 GarilNarbe

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 15:49

But there is a time (...) just to call it quits and accept the fact that he is not having a race seat in F1. next season.

 

(...) and it is time to accept the fact that Russell was, is and will always be better than Kubica 2.0. Period.

I have allready accepted, that he will not has a race seat in F1 next season.

I also admit that he had much worse pace then Russell, better starts and same number of accidents

I just do not agree with the reason why he had worse pace. And because of that with your idea that Russell is better then Kubica now. I am not saying that he is not, but with those cars I do not think we are able to compare them.

 

About tyres - You are right, my mistake. Kubica had hard tyres later.

About car spec - not only chasis but at least deflectors were also at old spec.



#6274 GarilNarbe

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 15:52

Because he is..

You didn't get the point. The question was why anybody would think about Russell in Merc and the answer was - becouse he is better then Kubica. Even if it would be true Merc wouldn't take Russell just because he is better then his teammate in trashcar. 

 

EDIT: Yes Russell also has trashcar.


Edited by GarilNarbe, 18 November 2019 - 15:54.


#6275 Myrvold

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 17:06

This is like reading WRC-threads in 2014 and 2015 all over again. Quite interesting, and about as fruitful.

 

I do wonder which drivers were under investigation for the DRS-thing though, and if that had a possibility of bringing Williams to the points again.



#6276 MNader

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 20:01

I'm pretty sure no driver in the world would have an average advantage of 0.57 secs in quali over 2010 Kubica.

 

To be honest, that is a very good argument



#6277 Marklar

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 21:15

This is like reading WRC-threads in 2014 and 2015 all over again. Quite interesting, and about as fruitful.

 

I do wonder which drivers were under investigation for the DRS-thing though, and if that had a possibility of bringing Williams to the points again.

Sainz was the only one to use DRS there based on the live timing.

Perez and Giovinazzi also used DRS during that time, but in the other zone.



#6278 hansmann

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 22:06

I'm pretty sure no driver in the world would have an average advantage of 0.57 secs in quali over 2010 Kubica.

 

Agreed .

The majority of current F1 one drivers would do better than that .

 

To take race pace as a measure compared to quali performance, I think the top drivers would beat him by 3-5 seconds in quali, the experienced mid fielders by 1.5-2.x seconds .



#6279 DeKnyff

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 22:16

Lovely comment, totally floored by:


I do admire your defense of Kubica. I really do. But there is a time to do it and a time just to call it quits and accept the fact that he is not having a race seat in F1. next season. Also accept the fact that he is less than Russell is. Good starts and a single point do not offer any resemblance to anything admirable or good. He has gotten his comeback and he didn't make anything of it. I admire Kubica for his tenacity and his willpower to achieve F1 again. It's a Hollywood story. But he isn't the same driver anymore as he once was. And there is no shame in that.
Butto defend him at all costs, is quite pathetic to witness. Mostly because there is just zero objectiveness in your posts. As said; I admire your will and depth to defend Kubica. But it's done. He's gone. He has had one hell of a bad year and it is time to accept the fact that Russell was, is and will always be better than Kubica 2.0. Period.

And what is the point in discussing about the drivers? The really relevant thing about the season is how pathetically bad the team has been. In fact, Kubica's performance as a driver has been waaaay better than Williams' as a team. I don't think Williams deserves to stay in F1 more than Kubica.



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#6280 Beri

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 22:22

That's, well.. somewhat true. Yet not something I'd fully agree upon. But just one more race. And then we can leave it all behind. And pray for a better 2020.

#6281 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 07:15

Agreed .
The majority of current F1 one drivers would do better than that .

To take race pace as a measure compared to quali performance, I think the top drivers would beat him by 3-5 seconds in quali, the experienced mid fielders by 1.5-2.x seconds .


Not having that massive difference at all like. 1s to 1.5s max. Or Russell must be really bad as well, and he isn’t based on his performance relative to the likes of Norris and Gasly last year.

#6282 pdac

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 14:02

And what is the point in discussing about the drivers? The really relevant thing about the season is how pathetically bad the team has been. In fact, Kubica's performance as a driver has been waaaay better than Williams' as a team. I don't think Williams deserves to stay in F1 more than Kubica.

 

I agree that the performance of Williams has been extremely poor over the past two seasons. But the fact is that once a team has an entry there isn't a high standard that they have to achieve (maybe being consistently outside 107% might be bad, but even Williams can manage to keep to that limit). Drivers, on the other hand, have to prove themselves against many many potential replacements.

 

So, I disagree with the highlighted statement. 



#6283 SenorSjon

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 14:34

Can't they use the car from last year? This car was a full second slower than 2018 Brazil Q. Other teams only lost a couple of tenths between the rule changes.



#6284 PayasYouRace

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 14:51

Can't they use the car from last year? This car was a full second slower than 2018 Brazil Q. Other teams only lost a couple of tenths between the rule changes.

 

The rules changed since last season. It wouldn't meet the regulations.



#6285 shure

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 15:12

And what is the point in discussing about the drivers? The really relevant thing about the season is how pathetically bad the team has been. In fact, Kubica's performance as a driver has been waaaay better than Williams' as a team. I don't think Williams deserves to stay in F1 more than Kubica.

Because it's important to know whether they are getting the maximum of what the car is capable of.  How else can you tell if a car is good or not?

 

If the blame was being heaped on Kubica just for being last then I'd agree it's a little unfair to judge when the car is such a big influence.  But when a team mate is so much slower than another it's legitimate to question that driver's abilities and whether he is worth the seat.  This year Kubica's blushes were arguably spared by the fact the car was clearly a dog and he didn't really cost the team any points.  But if the car had been borderline and had relied on the drivers getting the max to make the difference between points or no points then he would have been a disaster as it's clear that in this car at least he was simply not up to the task.  He was averaging more than a second a lap slower than Russell in the last race.  And I'm being generous.  That's just not acceptable whatever car you're in



#6286 DeKnyff

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 21:36

Because it's important to know whether they are getting the maximum of what the car is capable of.  How else can you tell if a car is good or not?

 

If the blame was being heaped on Kubica just for being last then I'd agree it's a little unfair to judge when the car is such a big influence.  But when a team mate is so much slower than another it's legitimate to question that driver's abilities and whether he is worth the seat.  This year Kubica's blushes were arguably spared by the fact the car was clearly a dog and he didn't really cost the team any points.  But if the car had been borderline and had relied on the drivers getting the max to make the difference between points or no points then he would have been a disaster as it's clear that in this car at least he was simply not up to the task.  He was averaging more than a second a lap slower than Russell in the last race.  And I'm being generous.  That's just not acceptable whatever car you're in

Kubica was averaging more than a second a lap slower than Russell and Williams was averaging more than a second a lap slower than Haas, Racing Point, Alfa Romeo and Toro Rosso. If not two seconds.

 

I fail to understand why one is slated, while the other passes scot-free. Teams were supposed to be above any driver. For the good and in that case, for the bad.



#6287 pdac

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 22:08

Kubica was averaging more than a second a lap slower than Russell and Williams was averaging more than a second a lap slower than Haas, Racing Point, Alfa Romeo and Toro Rosso. If not two seconds.

 

I fail to understand why one is slated, while the other passes scot-free. Teams were supposed to be above any driver. For the good and in that case, for the bad.

 

Is anyone letting Williams off scot-free? I certainly am not. But as I eluded to before, there is no long queue of teams waiting to come into F1 and take the place of Williams (but there is a queue of drivers there to replace Kubica).

 

Williams are plum last and that's terrible considering their heritage. Yes - they really must get their act together. Robert, though ... he had his chance and now it's gone.



#6288 DeKnyff

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 22:29

Is anyone letting Williams off scot-free? I certainly am not. But as I eluded to before, there is no long queue of teams waiting to come into F1 and take the place of Williams (but there is a queue of drivers there to replace Kubica).

 

Williams are plum last and that's terrible considering their heritage. Yes - they really must get their act together. Robert, though ... he had his chance and now it's gone.

That they must get their act together doesn't mean they haven't been at least as bad as RK in 2019 (which is what this thread is about).



#6289 pdac

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 22:38

That they must get their act together doesn't mean they haven't been at least as bad as RK in 2019 (which is what this thread is about).

 

Agreed.

 

Edit:

Oh and on that note, the guy held responsible has been out the door for a few months now.


Edited by pdac, 19 November 2019 - 22:39.


#6290 GarilNarbe

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 00:55

One more race and RK will finaly get away from Williams fans. 

You should start prepare for attaking Latifi, like you did with Sirotkin, Stroll, Kubica, Montoya...



#6291 pdac

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 01:12

One more race and RK will finaly get away from Williams fans.
You should start prepare for attaking Latifi, like you did with Sirotkin, Stroll, Kubica, Montoya...


Huh? When did that all happen?

#6292 hansmann

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 01:56

Kubica was averaging more than a second a lap slower than Russell and Williams was averaging more than a second a lap slower than Haas, Racing Point, Alfa Romeo and Toro Rosso. If not two seconds.

 

I fail to understand why one is slated, while the other passes scot-free. Teams were supposed to be above any driver. For the good and in that case, for the bad.

 

The Williams cars are terrible right now, have been for a while, and everyone agrees on that .

There is little in terms of progress or development to talk about either, or at least not much we know of .

That's why there is little discussion on that matter .

 

Kubica is a terrible driver, which almost everyone agrees on . 

But a few people claim he is not only not bad, but actually a great driver .

That's why there is a lot of discussion on that .

 

 

One more race and RK will finaly get away from Williams fans. 

You should start prepare for attaking Latifi, like you did with Sirotkin, Stroll, Kubica, Montoya...

 

 

As said above, there hasn't been any outcry about the other drivers you mentioned .

 

Well, maybe about Stroll, to a degree .

I still think Stroll shouldn't be in F1, but at least he's fighting hard and can be pretty quick on his day .

 

Kubica can only block his teammate for a few laps , ruining any chance Williams might or might not have had to gain a place or two, and hasn't been quick on any lap he drove in anger since his return .



#6293 Tsarwash

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 02:01

And what is the point in discussing about the drivers? The really relevant thing about the season is how pathetically bad the team has been. In fact, Kubica's performance as a driver has been waaaay better than Williams' as a team. I don't think Williams deserves to stay in F1 more than Kubica.

The differences is that unlike Kubica, Williams will be in F1 next year, and there is a chance that they will be a lot better next year, and frankly even if Kubica had a better seat next year, the chances are that he would be just as bad. Comparing drivers and teams just doesn't really work. Somebody like Stroll isn't ever going to have the ability or speed of Hamilton, but where did Mercedes come from fifteen years ago ? I forget which team they used to be, but they were backmarkers. 



#6294 shure

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 08:23

Kubica was averaging more than a second a lap slower than Russell and Williams was averaging more than a second a lap slower than Haas, Racing Point, Alfa Romeo and Toro Rosso. If not two seconds.

 

I fail to understand why one is slated, while the other passes scot-free. Teams were supposed to be above any driver. For the good and in that case, for the bad.

Who's getting off scot-free?  Claire Williams has been slated earlier in this thread for the current state of the team and I don't see anybody pretending that they are doing a good job.  The car's a complete dog.

 

But here's the thing: with a bit of money, some proper engineering direction and a bit of luck their fortunes could change overnight.  Mid-season is always harder given the idiotic ban on testing but with every new car and especially with new regulations a team has at least a limited chance to improve on their previous one - just look at McLaren.  It's very difficult to see how that can apply to Robert, given that he apparently has no idea why he's so much slower than his team mate.  He's just exceptionally slow.  And when you are over a second a lap slower than your team mate while on the same tyres you have to answer questions about what you're doing in F1



#6295 Marklar

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 08:49

One more race and RK will finaly get away from Williams fans.
You should start prepare for attaking Latifi, like you did with Sirotkin, Stroll, Kubica, Montoya...

With this comment you prove that you are talking out of your ass. Stroll was a bit attacked. Nobody cared about Sirotkin. But Montoya? Delusional, probably 99 % of all Williams fans love him

#6296 messy

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 09:05

One more race and RK will finaly get away from Williams fans. 

You should start prepare for attaking Latifi, like you did with Sirotkin, Stroll, Kubica, Montoya...

 

Sometimes a 'dislike' button would be useful. And I'm not even particularly a Williams fan.



#6297 Steve99

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 09:12

"You should start prepare for attaking Latifi"

 

Yes, indeed. I don't rate him very highly, but if he brings money, that's what Williams needs. I hope he proves me wrong and is perhaps quite decent, as Stroll has in fact proven to be, Sirotkin is and, as for Montoya, different class entirely. Kubica's been a disaster, but he - and the team - gave it a go, so good for them. Hopefully he gets a drive in a category where he can display the talent he has, which he clearly cannot do in F1.



#6298 Anderis

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 09:25

Stroll has always had some haters but I would argue they weren't more prevalent among Williams fans than among other F1 fans.

 

Sirotkin has received more hate from Kubica's fans than from Williams' fans if anything (for getting chosen over him).

 

Montoya might even be the most popular driver driving for Williams in XXI century among Williams' fans.

 

Latifi's pre-F1 record is highly unconvincing. Unless he surprisingly turns out to to be able to give Russell a good run for his money, he'll be received with a lot of reluctance. But that would happen at any team, not just Williams.


Edited by Anderis, 20 November 2019 - 09:26.


#6299 SenorSjon

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 09:59

The rules changed since last season. It wouldn't meet the regulations.

 

I know. I tend to believe if they used last years cars with the new wing rules, they probably would lose less time. ;)

 

One more race and RK will finaly get away from Williams fans. 

You should start prepare for attaking Latifi, like you did with Sirotkin, Stroll, Kubica, Montoya...

 

If Latifi fans claim he is a tier 1 driver in hiding, then yes, his fans are up for a rough ride.



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#6300 Beri

Beri
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Posted 20 November 2019 - 10:07

Stroll has always had some haters but I would argue they weren't more prevalent among Williams fans than among other F1 fans.
 
Sirotkin has received more hate from Kubica's fans than from Williams' fans if anything (for getting chosen over him).
 
Montoya might even be the most popular driver driving for Williams in XXI century among Williams' fans.
 
Latifi's pre-F1 record is highly unconvincing. Unless he surprisingly turns out to to be able to give Russell a good run for his money, he'll be received with a lot of reluctance. But that would happen at any team, not just Williams.


Well blue boy, I do not agree with you. I think Williams has picked a paydriver one too many times for Latifi to deserve a fair chance by fans in general. Its just another paydriver in the long line of paydrivers that Claire pulls out of her stockings. No matter if he had been F2 champion, there would still be a faint smell of sarcasm and negativity that would have surrounded his appointment as driver. Now its even going to be worse as he even didnt get to become champion. Something that Maldonado at least was.
I cant name any positive reasoning for Latifi to be signed any other than his money. I also cant say Im overly convinced during his free practice spells, but in all fairness one cant judge too much from a free practice and certainly not when driven in clearly the slowest car around. But to me, it is just another driver without any personality or gifted super talent.