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Williams: Drivers, management and other folks at Grove 2019


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#6401 hansmann

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 10:51

what happened this race,  first stint they looked evenly matched with a sligtht edge for Kubica. Second stint Russell seemed to come alive, while Kubica lost out completely. I saw he had some damage but it looked to me more tire affected than damage.

 

Russell lost the start battle, once again, and was stuck behind Kubica .

With the DRS having been disabled for a while, Russell or the team might have chosen to keep a bigger gap to RK than usual for that first stint , to save tyres and put less stress on the engine and brakes .

 

To be fair, Kubica did have quite a bit of damage after a little shunt, but it was still just business as usual after Russell passed him eventually , and RK fell back by a good rate of knots as always .



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#6402 Pete_f1

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 13:12

Well at least the car can be put out of its misery now. Just hope next years car is better.

#6403 Jambo

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 14:49

It's over. It's done.



#6404 BRG

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 16:26

This is so sad. As a proud Canadian, I think back to the days of JV in a Williams and look at things today.... Signing Latifi? A 24 year old rookie? 

 

Villeneuve was a 25 yo rookie so I don't know what you are complaining about.  And Damon Hill was a 33 yo sophomore.  They both did OK, as I recall.  Maybe give Latifi a chance instead of condemning him out of hand?


Edited by BRG, 02 December 2019 - 16:26.


#6405 Berner

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Posted 02 December 2019 - 16:48

Villeneuve was a 25 yo rookie so I don't know what you are complaining about.  And Damon Hill was a 33 yo sophomore.  They both did OK, as I recall.  Maybe give Latifi a chance instead of condemning him out of hand?

Umm, JV had numerous championships and pole positions before heading to F1. Latifi? None unless we count karting from 10 years ago. And I am not condemning him...just feel that there are better drivers out there who simply don't have a bag load of cash. 



#6406 absinthedude

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 12:50

To claim that things went wrong when Claire took over is to forget that she became Deputy Team Principal in 2013 and steered the team through the successful seasons of 2014,15 and 16. 

 

And yes, while there was sponsorship involved....it was Williams and not Renault or any other team who gave Kubica his chance...first a "third driver" role and then a full race season. The way he's bitten the hand that fed him is quite unseemly. I am as disappointed in Robert's conduct as I am his performance behind the wheel. I had really hoped he'd inject some enthusiasm and speed into the team. sadly I was wrong. 



#6407 szym3k

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Posted 03 December 2019 - 22:35

To claim that things went wrong when Claire took over is to forget that she became Deputy Team Principal in 2013 and steered the team through the successful seasons of 2014,15 and 16. 

 

And yes, while there was sponsorship involved....it was Williams and not Renault or any other team who gave Kubica his chance...first a "third driver" role and then a full race season. The way he's bitten the hand that fed him is quite unseemly. I am as disappointed in Robert's conduct as I am his performance behind the wheel. I had really hoped he'd inject some enthusiasm and speed into the team. sadly I was wrong. 

 

Easy to come in and ride on someone else's work for a couple years. Now we're seeing the results of Claire's leadership and decisions.

 

I wish the team well, but don't see them fighting for Q2 next year. 



#6408 William Hunt

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 05:19

To claim that things went wrong when Claire took over is to forget that she became Deputy Team Principal in 2013 and steered the team through the successful seasons of 2014,15 and 16. 

 

 

Claire is just bashed because she is female in a male dominated world, we've seen the same kind of bashing when Monisha Kaltenborn became team principal at Sauber, I find it sad, it seems women will be judged harder

Claire has been pationate about her dad's team since she was a child: she lives, eats, drinks & sleeps Williams F1 and as the poster above mentioned she was already team principal in a time when Williams was more competitive, as a person I actually like Claire more as her dad to be honest: a warmer and more empathic personality

People who criticise her also seem to forget how unsuccesful her dad was in the 1970s, only when Jones joined and Patrick Head formed a great duo with Frank the team became succesful


Edited by William Hunt, 04 December 2019 - 05:20.


#6409 baddog

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 05:28

While in the end the buck does stop at the top, I agree it is ridiculous the way people ALWAYS focus negatively on female leaders in F1. 

 

I mean if there is no kind of a rebound then her time as effective TP will have to be seen as a failure, but there is some time left and they are still in business properly.



#6410 DarthWillie

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 05:57

Have to disagree there. Any team boss with a season like William's this year will receive a lot of flak. Not being able to participate in pre season testing, dogg of a car, losing td pre season. I don't care about your gender, you messed up big time.

Last years mclaren management were just as poor.

I really hope William's do a mclaren next year, andcshould they do that I will praise Clair for it

#6411 Requiem84

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 06:25

Claire made the mistake to rely on Paddy Lowe didn’t she?

He was over seeing the car development and should have been aware of the bad car and being late.

#6412 Pete_f1

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 06:53

Don't forget Monisha Kaltenborn got herself and Sauber into what could have been serious legal trouble.

Edited by Pete_f1, 04 December 2019 - 13:10.


#6413 taran

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 09:55

Claire is just bashed because she is female in a male dominated world, we've seen the same kind of bashing when Monisha Kaltenborn became team principal at Sauber, I find it sad, it seems women will be judged harder

Claire has been pationate about her dad's team since she was a child: she lives, eats, drinks & sleeps Williams F1 and as the poster above mentioned she was already team principal in a time when Williams was more competitive, as a person I actually like Claire more as her dad to be honest: a warmer and more empathic personality

People who criticise her also seem to forget how unsuccesful her dad was in the 1970s, only when Jones joined and Patrick Head formed a great duo with Frank the team became succesful

 

Agree with all the above posters. Gender has nothing to do with it.

It's results that speak. Boullier was sacked for less. Nepotism got her this job and nepotism is keeping her there.

 

And bringing up Kaltenborn is rich. A team manager who was an out and out fraudster. If anything, she wasn't judged harshly enough. She should have gotten a Briatore-ban.

 


Edited by taran, 04 December 2019 - 09:56.


#6414 absinthedude

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 10:20

Claire is undoubtedly treated differently due to her gender. The kind of bile reserved for her by "fans" hasn't been directed at the likes of Ron Dennis, Eric Boullier, Ciryl or other controversial team bosses. And I firmly believe that is because Claire is a woman. 

 

That said, yes she deserves criticism for the state the team is in. She oversaw some great years, and is currently overseeing some awful times. We judge her ultimately on whether she's able to turn the team around. Would you judge Ron Dennis solely on 1994-6 when the years were very lean? 



#6415 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 10:29

We also need to differentiate between Claire who is a team owner and many team principals who are effectively employees of the parent companies who actually own the teams.

I intensely dislike the “results now or be sacked” culture.

#6416 RA2

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 10:32

 

That said, yes she deserves criticism for the state the team is in. She oversaw some great years, and is currently overseeing some awful times. We judge her ultimately on whether she's able to turn the team around. Would you judge Ron Dennis solely on 1994-6 when the years were very lean? 

 

Ron Dennis scored 2 works contracts (and had choice of a third) during that period, so would you call that awful?


Edited by RA2, 04 December 2019 - 10:33.


#6417 taran

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 11:05

Claire is undoubtedly treated differently due to her gender. The kind of bile reserved for her by "fans" hasn't been directed at the likes of Ron Dennis, Eric Boullier, Ciryl or other controversial team bosses. And I firmly believe that is because Claire is a woman. 

 

That said, yes she deserves criticism for the state the team is in. She oversaw some great years, and is currently overseeing some awful times. We judge her ultimately on whether she's able to turn the team around. Would you judge Ron Dennis solely on 1994-6 when the years were very lean? 

 

Dennis was coming off a works contract and building on a new partnership, first with Peugeot and then Mercedes.

And while I would certainly cut him some slack as the cars were still podium worthy in those years, Marlboro judged him and went with Ferrari instead. After the longest, most successful partnership in F1.

 

So yes, even Ron Dennis isn't above judgment as shown in 1996 and later by him actually even having to leave McLaren.

 

I don't get why when a woman is judged just like men are (because equality), some people pop up to defend them from "unfair" accusations because any criticism must be because she's a woman. And if you think Claire Williams gets more bile than Boullier or Abiteboul I suggest you actually read those threads. In fact, I would say you are treating her different due to her gender, protecting the poor woman from the harsh fans, while male managers are fair game in these threads.

 

Is anyone claiming Claire Williams is unfit because she is a woman? I thought we were debating if 2 years of failure without signs of improvement was sufficient reason to sack her? Boullier got the axe despite overseeing major restructuring at McLaren. It was felt that he wasn't part of the solution or credible as a manager any longer. I would say Claire Williams is now at that point. If Williams don't improve markedly in 2020, can she still lead the team?
 



#6418 pdac

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 11:20

We also need to differentiate between Claire who is a team owner and many team principals who are effectively employees of the parent companies who actually own the teams.

I intensely dislike the “results now or be sacked” culture.

 

This and the "the one at the top is the one to blame". In many cases it is, but it's by no means the case in every situation. You cannot micro-manage everyone from the top.

 

(I can't believe I am saying this, as I've always been vocal about ineffective managers who do not deserve the position and salaries that they are given - I guess I've come to realise the difference between middle management and senior management. I'm sticking with my blue collar)


Edited by pdac, 04 December 2019 - 11:21.


#6419 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 11:21

It's more that Claire gets all the criticism for what's gone wrong at the team but never seems to get credit for what she's done right such as landing two title sponsors (something McLaren are still struggling to do since Vodafone left them), maintaining a partnership with the most competitive engine supplier, hiring talented drivers (Bottas, Russell) and hiring the technical director of the most successful team of the decade.

 

That the last turned out to be bad in hindsight and the team are only just beginning to recover from that seems to be what her critics get hung up on, which is unfair.



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#6420 shure

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 11:50

Claire is just bashed because she is female in a male dominated world, we've seen the same kind of bashing when Monisha Kaltenborn became team principal at Sauber, I find it sad, it seems women will be judged harder

Claire has been pationate about her dad's team since she was a child: she lives, eats, drinks & sleeps Williams F1 and as the poster above mentioned she was already team principal in a time when Williams was more competitive, as a person I actually like Claire more as her dad to be honest: a warmer and more empathic personality
People who criticise her also seem to forget how unsuccesful her dad was in the 1970s, only when Jones joined and Patrick Head formed a great duo with Frank the team became succesful

claire is bashed because Williams are awful and a shadow of their former selves. Any TP would be bashed in that situation and rather than try to fabricate misogyny you might ask the question why being a woman should make her exempt from criticism?

#6421 pdac

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 13:04

claire is bashed because Williams are awful and a shadow of their former selves. Any TP would be bashed in that situation and rather than try to fabricate misogyny you might ask the question why being a woman should make her exempt from criticism?

 

I get that, as the figure-head for the team, Claire is rightly being criticised for the current poor performance of the team. But calling for her to be removed is just silly.

 

Also, people keep calling her the TP. She is not, she it the deputy TP. Frank is still the TP. I know this is a mute point but, in the same way people keep wanting to hold her accountable for what Paddy has done (or failed to do), then maybe they should be holding Frank accountable for her performance - because, technically, he's the one in charge.



#6422 Rinehart

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 13:14

Claire is just bashed because she is female in a male dominated world, we've seen the same kind of bashing when Monisha Kaltenborn became team principal at Sauber, I find it sad, it seems women will be judged harder

Claire has been pationate about her dad's team since she was a child: she lives, eats, drinks & sleeps Williams F1 and as the poster above mentioned she was already team principal in a time when Williams was more competitive, as a person I actually like Claire more as her dad to be honest: a warmer and more empathic personality

People who criticise her also seem to forget how unsuccesful her dad was in the 1970s, only when Jones joined and Patrick Head formed a great duo with Frank the team became succesful

I agree. Except I think it is her weakness is that she is so passionate about Williams "DNA" because I think that is not compatible with where she needs to take the team in the future. That legacy responsibility seems to be a lead weight tied to her ankles as far as I can tell. Frank made some big philosophical changes to the team over the years to remain competitive, such as switching from a customer to a constructor, but I wonder if Claire is even able to countenance a change of toilet roll supplier these days...



#6423 Bloggsworth

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 14:29

They should have put Kubica in the Mercedes as well, that would have ended the discussion...



#6424 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 15:39

They should have put Kubica in the Mercedes as well, that would have ended the discussion...

It will have ended the Mercedes too, when he binned it into the barrier.

#6425 milestone 11

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 15:46

Latifi will be pleased with his test. Quicker than George on a lesser tyre, impressive.



#6426 Beri

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 17:35

Latifi will be pleased with his test. Quicker than George on a lesser tyre, impressive.


When a test is not having any scrutiny by the FIA, I dare to question any surprising results.

#6427 SonGoku

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 18:06

I want to believe it, but I heard the same last year: "totally focused on next year, the new car will be much better". I don't see why and this is the team that didn't have enough parts to do a winter test session.

Maybe the biggest red flag is the development during the season, they are still only battling themselves at the back.

#6428 pdac

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 18:12

I want to believe it, but I heard the same last year: "totally focused on next year, the new car will be much better". I don't see why and this is the team that didn't have enough parts to do a winter test session.

Maybe the biggest red flag is the development during the season, they are still only battling themselves at the back.

 

I'm assuming you mean lack of development. I thought they has good as said that the car development had gone down a totally wrong path. If that is the case, then it makes sense that they would not develop that car further (because developments would not be relevant to the new car).



#6429 Pete_f1

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 18:31

So has Williams given Lafingy Russels good car and Russel Kubica's bag-o-cr#p?

#6430 Francesc

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 19:11

I guess Nissany will be soon confirmed as a test driver for 2020. And then in a couple of months an sponsor related to him. Imagine what lineup could Williams have in 2021 if Russell leaves; Latifi - Nissany :rotfl:



#6431 NotAPineapple

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 22:19

Claire is being shat on in exactly the same way as Boullier, Dennis, Fernandes, Lowe, Arrivabene, Domenicali and Kalteborn did before they were all disposed of. If you are going to pull the sexism card, at least bring a bit of solid reasoning behind it.

#6432 f1seb

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 03:58

Claire is being shat on in exactly the same way as Boullier, Dennis, Fernandes, Lowe, Arrivabene, Domenicali and Kalteborn did before they were all disposed of. If you are going to pull the sexism card, at least bring a bit of solid reasoning behind it.

 

Good luck with that.  You'll sooner be able to squeeze water out of a rock before that happens.  They must not realize that Formula 1 is the most expensive motorsport in the entire world, or perhaps they don't know what that means.  Every single decision costs money, a lot of money at that.  The stakes are high and it's a cutthroat business.  This isn't a place for hand holding, hugs and pep talks.  But no, it can't be that, it's cause she's a woman, and if you can't see it you're blind!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:



#6433 Beri

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 14:13

People here tend to think 2019 was a rotten season. I think 2020 will become worse. Simply because of the fact that the 2020 car will be a direct evolution from the 2019 car and realisticly considering other teams will (likely) find half a second, Williams needs to find (at least) 2 seconds to be even close to point contention. I think 2020 will see Williams at the back of the field from the go.

What will become likely, if the above mentioned is becoming the truth, is Williams giving up on 2020 quite soon in the season to focus on 2021. What is the use of spending loads and loads of money on a car that will (most likely) never become a steady point contender? Better to shift money, focus and resources to the 2021 project soon, as this will be a completely new challenge and car.
By doing so, the 2020 car will end up being dead last and not upgraded perhaps even as soon as the European season kicks off. It wil inevitably mean that Williams is going to have a worse season than 2019.

The only way to get through such an abysmal year, yet again, is to keep close ties with sponsors, staff and drivers to explain as to why 2020 is going to be written off and be frank and fair about everything. Fans will shout and grab pitchforks and knives to skin Claire once more. But I realistically think williams can stick it together and see 2020 through to focus on 2021. The only question at hand would be (money related questions aside since there is a main sponsor tied till 2023): Can Williams handle a season full of negativity once more?

#6434 hansmann

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 18:47

Easy to come in and ride on someone else's work for a couple years. Now we're seeing the results of Claire's leadership and decisions.

 

I wish the team well, but don't see them fighting for Q2 next year. 

 

Claire didn't just come into the team as a hire, she's been involved at the top many years before becoming de facto principal .

 

That said, for this reason she bears a lot of responsibility for both the ups and downs in recent years .

The team is still running and funded, though ; that's no mean feat in F1 .

 

I think 2021/22 is what matters most for Williams' future .



#6435 maximilian

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 14:37

Motorsport Total reports that Roy Nissany may well be announced as Williams' third driver...   :o

 

https://www.motorspo...r-2020-19120909



#6436 Marklar

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 14:43

I guess Nissany will be soon confirmed as a test driver for 2020. And then in a couple of months an sponsor related to him. Imagine what lineup could Williams have in 2021 if Russell leaves; Latifi - Nissany :rotfl:

Nissany will never be a regular driver due to the super licence points system

#6437 Tsarwash

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 14:54

Claire is being shat on in exactly the same way as Boullier, Dennis, Fernandes, Lowe, Arrivabene, Domenicali and Kalteborn did before they were all disposed of. If you are going to pull the sexism card, at least bring a bit of solid reasoning behind it.

Can you show me any evidence that people are criticising Claire because she is female, rather than because results over the last few years have been unacceptable for the Williams team ?



#6438 Francesc

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 14:57

Nissany will never be a regular driver due to the super licence points system


Wasn't there a rule that running in Friday free practices give SL points?

#6439 Marklar

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 15:30

Wasn't there a rule that running in Friday free practices give SL points?

maximum of 10 overall, you still need to score 30 genuinely, and I cant see him pulling this off



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#6440 BRG

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 17:26

Can you show me any evidence that people are criticising Claire because she is female, rather than because results over the last few years have been unacceptable for the Williams team ?

The fact that she has been the target for vitriolic criticism despite being only the DEPUTY Team Principals, whilst the actual (male) Team Principal - Sir Frank Williams - has not been criticised one little bit leads me to suspect a massive degree of misogyny.  Anyone who believes that SFW isn't still involved in decision making, at least at the strategic level, probably doesn't understand about his character.



#6441 NotAPineapple

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 18:05

BS

 

As I've mentioned before, she is being crapped on in exactly the same way as any other team principle or football coach or politician after numerous years of bad performances. You're simply deluded if you think her treatment is in anyway different due to her gender. Looking at the facts there is precisely nothing that suggests that this is primarily due to "misogyny". 

 

Look at the Mclaren thread before they changed to Renault and tell me that Claire is copping it worse. If that doesn't convince you have a look at the Caterham thread in Tony Fernandes' last years or the Marussia one while Lowe was struggling to even get the cars to races. If you want something up to date then have a look at the comments towards Cyril Abiteboul in the current Renault thread. 

 

Do you have any sort of logic that even suggests that what Clair is receiving is above and beyond what the male TP's are copping?

 

I'll wait.



#6442 BRG

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 19:23

I'll wait.

Which bit of "DEPUTY Team Principal" is giving you trouble?  Which other Deputies are regularly abused on this forum?  I'll wait.



#6443 shure

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 19:36

The fact that she has been the target for vitriolic criticism despite being only the DEPUTY Team Principals, whilst the actual (male) Team Principal - Sir Frank Williams - has not been criticised one little bit leads me to suspect a massive degree of misogyny.  Anyone who believes that SFW isn't still involved in decision making, at least at the strategic level, probably doesn't understand about his character.

I think that's utter nonsense.  CW is very much the public face of Williams and FW has stayed very much in the background lately.  In interviews she herself says she's the right person to take the team forward and certainly gives the impression she ,makes a lot of the decisions.  It has nothing to do with "a massive degree of misogyny" and I think it's completely wrong to give such a false portrayal and invalidate proper criticism



#6444 pdac

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 22:45

I think that's utter nonsense.  CW is very much the public face of Williams and FW has stayed very much in the background lately.  In interviews she herself says she's the right person to take the team forward and certainly gives the impression she ,makes a lot of the decisions.  It has nothing to do with "a massive degree of misogyny" and I think it's completely wrong to give such a false portrayal and invalidate proper criticism

 

She may be the public face of Williams, but I don't think she has the level of responsibility (or even the level of experience) to be a fully-fledged TP and that's why she has the title of deputy. I'm sure she does not have too much technical experience and so must have to just trust the senior technical people in the team in what they are doing. Given that the problems with the car are clearly a technical matter, that would explain a lot.



#6445 shure

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 22:55

She may be the public face of Williams, but I don't think she has the level of responsibility (or even the level of experience) to be a fully-fledged TP and that's why she has the title of deputy. I'm sure she does not have too much technical experience and so must have to just trust the senior technical people in the team in what they are doing. Given that the problems with the car are clearly a technical matter, that would explain a lot.

I think that's hard for most people to know for sure just exactly how much responsibility she has, especially when she has given the impression in interviews that she is in charge.  In which case it's only natural that she takes the flack for it.  As others have pointed out, male TPs don't get off lightly, either, and I think it's clutching at straws to blame it on a "massive degree of misogyny."  Doubtless there are one or two people who do have an ulterior motive, but trying to give the impression it's a major reason is simply unfounded.  She shouldn't be attacked for her sex, but neither should she enjoy protected status because of it.

 

Case in point, how many people truly believe Boullier was calling the shots at McLaren?  I for one think CW has far more authority at Williams than he did there, but that didn't stop him getting a lot of criticism.  Why should Claire be different?


Edited by shure, 10 December 2019 - 22:56.


#6446 JavierDeVivre

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 08:06

Claire is different because she had the misfortune of be the deputy team principal at the team that hired Kubica, and therefore had to deal with his hateful fans.

They are the real reason for this, the senior public face of the team would have been on the receiving end of the vitriol no matter which team Kubica was in.

Edited to correct mistyping in my post.

Edited by JavierDeVivre, 11 December 2019 - 08:51.


#6447 Pete_f1

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 08:43

Claire not running things? What's she doing then?

LOL

#6448 Rinehart

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 09:55

 

Motorsport Total reports that Roy Nissany may well be announced as Williams' third driver...   :o

 

https://www.motorspo...r-2020-19120909

 

I think we all need to face the reality that Williams has been and is running in financial survival mode and the 21 regs don't go nearly far enough to give them a leg up.

I think Mike O'Driscoll is doing an amazing job to balance the books across the group, running 3rd drivers such as Nissany appears to be a necessary evil. 



#6449 Nemo1965

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 12:24

Regarding how bad or well Claire is doing, I feel compelled to quote myself:

 

I have to say... that the longer I am following the Williams-team, the lesser I value Frank William's capabilities as a team-owner, manager and entrepreneur.  Frank Williams a good people-manager? Really? Look at the history of the team and I mean from the early seventies.  How good was Frank in managing his company and his relationships with people who could help him to success? How many times did he go semi-bankrupt?

 

He got an incredible windfall in the late seventies with the money from Saudi princes who did not know what to do with their money after the skyrocketing of oil-prices early seventies (the same reason Walter Wolf became a millionaire and F1-team-owner and David Thieme, of Essex by the way). The one and only excellent decision I can grant him was hiring Patrick Head... 

 

I am not convinced that Claire is doing a worse job than her father, only because her father had a championship winning team once and she does not. I am convinced that if you had parachuted Donald Trump into the Williams-team in 1991, the team would not have faired worse. And I am convinced that if you parachuted the young Frank Williams and Patrick Head into 2018, the team would not have fared better.

 



#6450 CSF

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 12:28

Nissany and Raghunathan to share test driving duties? May aswell...