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Williams: Drivers, management and other folks at Grove 2019


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#1051 cromofo

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 14:15

I understand your sentiment but your opinion shows a complete lack of knowledge of F1.

Yes, the car is slow. Perhaps Kubica’s car is flawed. They are only racing each other, the other teams are well out of reach.

 

But that doesn’t change the fact that both drivers need to show their ability and they can only do that by beating each other. The loser of this team battle will likely be out of F1 next year. So they both know what’s at stake.

 

We're 3 races in. Even if the team is doing great and having no issues, I usually give the drivers at least until Europe before I judge them.


Edited by cromofo, 17 April 2019 - 14:16.


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#1052 Paco

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 15:07

More rumors of another rich dad buying a team for his son.. Yikes.  What a bad bad road F1 is going down.



#1053 tghik

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 15:33

The loser of this team battle will likely be out of F1 next year. So they both know what’s at stake.

 


It is and it always will be. Which is why Russell is so glad that he is beating Kubica. It’s all he can do. He at least knows that if he beats Kubica comprehensively, he will continue to be seen as a promising driver. And if Kubica beats him, his reputation will take a significant hit.

 

As for Kubica, IMO he was hired as an experienced team leader with funding while Russell was expected to learn F1 while showing potential, just as Norris is doing. Instead, Russell is showing Kubica the way…that needs to change fast or Kubica will fast become the team’s designated #2 driver and then slowly slip towards a “Boutsen@Williams1990” role, e.g. an unwanted driver seeing out his contract.   

 

Yes, that's how it works in F1. Russell is too good of a driver to beat him in a flawed car, would be possible if Sirotkin or Stroll was in the other seat, but to beat George you need equal machinery. I will question though your remark about designated number 2, we are not a top team and not fighting for WDC, and especially when the team struggles at the bottom.

 

There is also something that leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. If I knew my teammate is struggling with an inferior equipment I would not share "I am happy to beat him" with the media. But that's me.



#1054 Paco

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 17:26

Cause right from the horses mouth ,it's not just the car but him as well.  Just accept his chassis isn't the real main problem (if the chassis is even an issue)..

 

I really do not get how people can't hear the words spoken by him.. it's clear as day.  I'm sure blaming and wanting to believe his car is the problem between teammates but when the man himself says it, the fact that Russell is comfortable enough to say it and knows what the real issue is and the fact that Russell is pretty humble..

 

People just need to accept fact.

 

It's no big deal.. so what.. its not as if Kubica is costing them points.. hopefully his feedback will help cause man alive Stroll Siro etc.. never helped their cause this year in development..

 

I have my own thoughts on whether Kubica can actually help in the direction to take but doesn't matter, Williams believed he could so time will tell, if they resign him then a sign that he is providing meaningful back that Russell alone is not.. time will tell..  As will the be story for the squad this year.. very little other then results on Saturday can be read into anything until a proper update comes forth but who knows, it may not even happen this year until one of the drivers destroys their car.. which could be a god send actually. 

 

Maybe both guys show collide safety and damage their cars enough that both get a new updated spec car earlier then planned.



#1055 Mark1865

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 17:30

Have there been any actual quotes from anyone connected to the team to confirm that RK’s car is at a disadvantage compared to GR’s?

There was the ‘8%’ claim made here https://www.motorspo...kubica-just-yet but I can’t find any quotes to add any substance to the claim.

On the other hand there is a direct quote from GR here: http://www.grandprix...r-williams.html where he says “It's not that the characteristics of Robert's car are bad and mine are good....It's just that they're different.”

I understand that it’s not in GR’s interest to say that RK’s car is worse than his, and maybe there are more sources or quotes that I’ve not seen. However it seems very odd that RK isn’t making a big deal of such a large discrepancy if indeed one exists. It’s looking more like they both have difficulties to overcome and GR is simply doing a better job with the under-performing car over the very small sample size of the first three race weekends.

#1056 GiorgioF1

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 17:53

Have there been any actual quotes from anyone connected to the team to confirm that RK’s car is at a disadvantage compared to GR’s?

There was the ‘8%’ claim made here https://www.motorspo...kubica-just-yet but I can’t find any quotes to add any substance to the claim.

On the other hand there is a direct quote from GR here: http://www.grandprix...r-williams.html where he says “It's not that the characteristics of Robert's car are bad and mine are good....It's just that they're different.”

I understand that it’s not in GR’s interest to say that RK’s car is worse than his, and maybe there are more sources or quotes that I’ve not seen. However it seems very odd that RK isn’t making a big deal of such a large discrepancy if indeed one exists. It’s looking more like they both have difficulties to overcome and GR is simply doing a better job with the under-performing car over the very small sample size of the first three race weekends.

 

A quick glance at the onboards tells the story really.

 

It's not a rocket science that every time the team swapped floors and front wings RK ended up the faster of the two. Both in Bahrain and during fp1 when they did performance runs especially to compare the speed difference. Even Mark Hughes is talking about it.

“It's not that the characteristics of Robert's car are bad and mine are good....It's just that they're different.” :rotfl: Yeah right, one is clearly the intended one, the other which has these 8% balance shifts isnt and Kubica is getting the short end of the stick here. Russell doesnt need to worry about it and can drive to what that shitbox is capable of and Kubica has to compensate all the time.



#1057 tghik

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 18:46

I understand that it’s not in GR’s interest to say that RK’s car is worse than his, and maybe there are more sources or quotes that I’ve not seen. However it seems very odd that RK isn’t making a big deal of such a large discrepancy if indeed one exists. It’s looking more like they both have difficulties to overcome and GR is simply doing a better job with the under-performing car over the very small sample size of the first three race weekends.

 

Maybe he does we don't know what's going on behind closed doors. On the other hand maybe he doesn't knowing the team has other problems. If he does speak strongly it may be taken badly, so it's a balancing act.



#1058 messy

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 19:41

I understand your sentiment but your opinion shows a complete lack of knowledge of F1.
Yes, the car is slow. Perhaps Kubica’s car is flawed. They are only racing each other, the other teams are well out of reach.
 
But that doesn’t change the fact that both drivers need to show their ability and they can only do that by beating each other. The loser of this team battle will likely be out of F1 next year. So they both know what’s at stake.
 
This is not a new situation. It has happened countless times in countless teams. And the driver who least impressed in the hopeless car would inevitably see their career plummet or end. While the better performing driver could hope for better things.
 
I literally mentioned Tom Walkinshaw, owner of Arrows in 1997, lambasting the reigning world champion Damon Hill (!!!) for not being ahead of his teammate Pedro Diniz because he was fiddling too much with setups etc. and people still think that being beaten by your team mate is not an issue.
 
It is and it always will be. Which is why Russell is so glad that he is beating Kubica. It’s all he can do. He at least knows that if he beats Kubica comprehensively, he will continue to be seen as a promising driver. And if Kubica beats him, his reputation will take a significant hit.
 
As for Kubica, IMO he was hired as an experienced team leader with funding while Russell was expected to learn F1 while showing potential, just as Norris is doing. Instead, Russell is showing Kubica the way…that needs to change fast or Kubica will fast become the team’s designated #2 driver and then slowly slip towards a “Boutsen@Williams1990” role, e.g. an unwanted driver seeing out his contract.


Erm, it really doesn't. It shows a differing view to your own.

#1059 pdac

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 21:03

Maybe he does we don't know what's going on behind closed doors. On the other hand maybe he doesn't knowing the team has other problems. If he does speak strongly it may be taken badly, so it's a balancing act.

 

Or maybe he knows what the team are doing to address it and has been asked not to say any more about it in public.



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#1060 taran

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:15

Erm, it really doesn't. It shows a differing view to your own.

 

I disagree emphatically. Because I am not stating my opinion that I think qualifying and race stats are important and Kubica should start evening the score or else but rather am pointing out the obvious fact that any driver who gets beaten by his teammate loses a valuable part of their reputation/standing. That is not something up to interpretation or millennial-style 'my opinion is just as valuable as your facts' reasoning.

 

We have more than 50 years of F1 racing in which this is clearly shown. We have heard numerous drivers (practically everyone?) say that beating your team mate is the main or first challenge. Alonso made it a point to state that he beat Vandoorne 21-0. Great drivers have had their standing diminished because the other driver was faster....Practically every annual review mentions the comparison between drivers as a way to determine who was the better driver. Nuances aren't part of statistics and very few people care or remember that there may be extenuating circumstances. They only see the figures and the narrative which inevitably is created by those stats....

 

Alex Zanardi and Jacques Laffite can cry you a river about not getting equal treatment at Williams but that didn't help their careers. Zanardi was out of F1 and Laffite only managed to continue because of his ties to Ligier.

 

We are all big fans here and more knowledgeable about F1 than casual fans so we know that Kubica has issues with his car (I'll leave aside how serious these issues are and if they are self-inflicted). But the casual fans only see that Kubica is being outdriven by his team mate, just like most causal fans accept that Bottas isn't nearly as good as Hamilton and is perhaps even a waste of a good car.

 

Eventually, perception becomes reality and by then, it will be too late for Kubica to turn that around.

 



#1061 Mohican

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 15:20

So what about today’s rumour in Italy about the Mazepins taking over Williams ?

#1062 MustangSally

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 15:23

So what about today’s rumour in Italy about the Mazepins taking over Williams ?

 

Source? Link?



#1063 MustangSally

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 15:25

To be honest, I'm very surprised Kubica is as close to GR as he is. After four years out, the mighty Schu was totally demolished in Q by Nico R. It took him until the third year to make a fight of it. I don't think a simulator is any substitute for being in the car every ten days or so, or the vagaries of tracks and tyres, or the pressures of a race weekend. Robert has been away for more than twice as long as Schu. In that time, Nico R had a whole career . . . from newbie to WDC and retirement. It's an age. I'm not expecting RK to get up to speed much before half-season.



#1064 YoungGun

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 15:49

Williams to become Forza Russia F1 Team ?

#1065 MustangSally

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 16:04

 

From the article:

 

 

Paddy Lowe’s cowardly departure has left the place in a shambles.

 

 

He wasn't fired?  News to me.



#1066 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 16:30

They'll need to put some novichok on Sir Frank's doorknob first, because any sale will be over his dead body. I reckon it's just a bit of butthurt from Mazepin after losing out on the Racing Point buyout.

 

Not that I'd put much stock in an article that describes Lowe's departure as "cowardly" by an anonymous "Editor".



#1067 tghik

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 16:53

There are rumours they will go to court, so Paddy didn't leave on his own.



#1068 Paco

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 17:22

From the article:

 

 

He wasn't fired?  News to me.

 

Why?  There was never any evidence that his step aside for the time being was anything but of his own doing.. there was never a full out firing by WIlliams in the news.  I always felt he couldn't work in the conditions that was forced themselves into as of the middle of summer (probably exactly when Stroll decided enough and found the RP opportunity) and that is directly reflected in the car that came onto track and it's lateness...

 

People want to believe that it must have been his fault but seeing everything unfold since the 1st test day.. it's horrendously obvious its a gong show that impossible for the drivers, production staff let alone design team.  It's never been an easy shop since Newey's time but things keep getting harder and harder to run.

 

I personnally believe he'll come back into the fold.. after Patrick cleans up the mechanical side, if he can figure out why it's soo far off and let Paddy do what he is supppose to do with more authority.    There really are not many guys to fill his shows (and no signs anyone internally to step up) and they have what.. 2 months to lock down next years car as far as principle concept and 3-4 months get it going into further design finalization.



#1069 Paco

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 17:27

NO WAY of sale prior to the finalization of the 2021 reset.  They apparently can keep going probably like this for 1 more year if they infact have over 100m to race, just stop spending this year and they'll be fine for another year to keep their entry. 

 

For 2021, I see another manufacturer coming and perhaps Williams would then tie themselves up to them as a branding effort and rebrand AMG engines like we've seen in the past.. I wouldn't be surprised to see them using year old spec engines at a deep discount and rebranding them.

 

I just can't see Williams folding irregardless of how hard or uphill the task would be.. it's not in Patricks or Williams family DNA to just give up when it gets hard.  Perhaps buying a bit more off Mercedes (definitely not a gearbox since Patrick back in the fold heavily) but I can see them buying their damper and rollbar setup for the rear if permissable.

 

Then hoping the rule reset allows them an opportunity to close the gap and challenge again.


Edited by Paco, 18 April 2019 - 17:29.


#1070 pdac

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 17:27

Why?

 

Because the announcement didn't come from Paddy and he's not (as far as I am aware) made any comment about it. That usually spells "fired" to me.



#1071 pdac

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 17:31

They'll need to put some novichok on Sir Frank's doorknob first, because any sale will be over his dead body. I reckon it's just a bit of butthurt from Mazepin after losing out on the Racing Point buyout.

 

Not that I'd put much stock in an article that describes Lowe's departure as "cowardly" by an anonymous "Editor".

 

But, but, wait ...

 

I thought he was taking legal action against the Administrators and was going to have the whole Racing Point deal overturned and have his deal accepted so that he could take over the team. Are you telling me that this is all not happening?? Surely that can't be right. He has a son that needs a seat.



#1072 ForeverInLoveWithF1

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 19:09

Cause right from the horses mouth ,it's not just the car but him as well.  Just accept his chassis isn't the real main problem (if the chassis is even an issue)..

 

 

 

 

Where did he say it's him? 

It's not only the car. But it doesn't mean it's necessarily the driver (or the driver alone). There can be many other things.

It's clear that he still needs more practise but he has already shown that his raw speed is still there.

 

Let me give you an example. 2007 was his first whole rookie year, he struggled for some reasons. At the end of the season he said that he was surprised by such a big incompetence. Many people thought he was talking about himself while he meant his race engineer.

 

A rookie driver got a rookie race engineer for his rookie year. RK had to be not only driver but his own race engineer at the same time: a little bit too much for an rookie driver, wasn't it? After the season the engineer was fired and RK got an experienced one for 2008. But the whole season 2007 was already lost for RK. 

 

This year there were some strange strategies in the last two races for Robert (I still wonder why Williams let him stay out 4 laps longer than GR on worn out tires despite loosing a few sec per lap or why Williams let him drive the last and longest stint in Bahrain on used tires despite the fact that he had new ones left). The question is what is going on in the team. RK doesn't reveal what is going on there. But it wouldn't suprise me if his words "it's not just the car" would mean again someone's incompetence.



#1073 Alfisti

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 19:26

Anyone seen the reviews on Glassdoor? Admittedly the following could be said about a lot of companies but what I have highlighted in bold we have seen or heard first hand:

https://www.glassdoo...iews-E38742.htm

 

That's every glassdoor review ever. 



#1074 ForeverInLoveWithF1

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 20:07

 

But the point - just in case you missed it - is that one is highly regarded by the best team in the business while the other isn't highly regarded by anyone anymore, except maybe one or two people on this forum. Sure he won one race a decade ago but also remember that both Heikki Kovalainen and Pastor Maldonardo have also won one GP since then. I can't see anyone trying to sign either of those two. Let's be brutally honest here Robert is basically at Williams because Renault tested him and realized he wasn't up to standard so didn't take him. 

 

Did HK or PM ever lead the championship in the third best car on the grid? RK not only won a race. He was leading the championship in the third best car and was in the championship contention almost to the end of the season (despite his team's early switch to the next season's car with KERS). 4 cars were better than his car and still he managed to outperform his rivals. He was almost flawless.

 

Renault in fact never intended to hire RK. They gave him a one-off ride. The engines/ Sainz deal was already planned. But unexpectedly RK turned  out to be so fast that some of the engineers who knew RK from 2010 were pushing for further tests. However, eventually the engine deal was finalized.


Edited by ForeverInLoveWithF1, 18 April 2019 - 20:21.


#1075 SonGoku

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 20:09

Mazepin wanted to buy Force India but he was too late, so I think this story is a little more serious than the usual rumours about buying F1 teams.



#1076 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 20:52

Mazepin wanted to buy Force India but he was too late, so I think this story is a little more serious than the usual rumours about buying F1 teams.

 

Mazepin wasn't too late. His offer was rejected.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure it follows that because he wanted to buy Force India that it makes this story any more credible.



#1077 tghik

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 20:55

I disagree emphatically. Because I am not stating my opinion that I think qualifying and race stats are important and Kubica should start evening the score or else but rather am pointing out the obvious fact that any driver who gets beaten by his teammate loses a valuable part of their reputation/standing. That is not something up to interpretation or millennial-style 'my opinion is just as valuable as your facts' reasoning.

 

We have heard numerous drivers (practically everyone?) say that beating your team mate is the main or first challenge. Great drivers have had their standing diminished because the other driver was faster....

 

Eventually, perception becomes reality and by then, it will be too late for Kubica to turn that around.

 

Somehow Schumi didn't lose much after having a hard time against Nico 3 years in a row, reading this forum he's still considered a GOAT.



#1078 pdac

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 21:12

Mazepin wanted to buy Force India but he was too late, so I think this story is a little more serious than the usual rumours about buying F1 teams.

 

The story has no credibility whatsoever because anyone who knows anything about Frank Williams knows that he will never sell the team. So if the majority shareholder won't sell, you cannot buy it. I'm not sure what percentage of the team is not owned my Frank, Claire or people close to them but, even if Mazepin were to buy the lot, he still would not have any influence over the team, let alone be able to buy the majority.



#1079 MustangSally

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 22:12

There are rumours they will go to court, so Paddy didn't leave on his own

 

There could be talk, but I can't imagine either party would go that route. The legal costs are ruinous for starters. And it would be very damaging for both parties - Paddy getting another job in F1 or Williams hiring someone else. 



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#1080 MustangSally

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 22:18

 

Not that I'd put much stock in an article that describes Lowe's departure as "cowardly" by an anonymous "Editor".

 

No, but that's a fairly slanderous statement, if untrue. I didn't think you could get away with that even online.



#1081 milestone 11

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 22:41

They'll need to put some novichok on Sir Frank's doorknob first, because any sale will be over his dead body.


Agree 100%. I doubt Sir Frank has ever fully come to terms with the Walter Wolf debacle.

Edited by milestone 11, 18 April 2019 - 23:11.


#1082 Baddoer

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 04:58

The story has no credibility whatsoever because anyone who knows anything about Frank Williams knows that he will never sell the team. So if the majority shareholder won't sell, you cannot buy it. I'm not sure what percentage of the team is not owned my Frank, Claire or people close to them but, even if Mazepin were to buy the lot, he still would not have any influence over the team, let alone be able to buy the majority.

Chase Carey is a salesman. His face says "give me your money". One way or another, he will find a way to get new cash bag onboard.



#1083 pdac

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 09:35

Chase Carey is a salesman. His face says "give me your money". One way or another, he will find a way to get new cash bag onboard.

 

Huh?



#1084 RacingGreen

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 07:35

Did HK or PM ever lead the championship in the third best car on the grid? RK not only won a race. He was leading the championship in the third best car and was in the championship contention almost to the end of the season (despite his team's early switch to the next season's car with KERS). 4 cars were better than his car and still he managed to outperform his rivals. He was almost flawless.

 

 

How do you know it was the third best car? It could have been the fifth best and he is even better than you think or perhaps it was the best or second best and he was a pathetic under-performer. All we know is he was a little bit better than Nick Heidfeld. Anything else is unsubstantiated speculation. 



#1085 Anderis

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 08:43

How do you know it was the third best car? It could have been the fifth best and he is even better than you think or perhaps it was the best or second best and he was a pathetic under-performer. All we know is he was a little bit better than Nick Heidfeld. Anything else is unsubstantiated speculation. 

I have a hard time believing anyone would put BMW on any other place than 3rd best car in 2008 if not for the sake of "we never know for sure" argument. Heidfeld had been on the grid for 10 full seasons, with many different teams and team-mates- we know more or less how good he was. BMW's advantage over 4th team was significant and each of those midfield teams had a reasonable driver as a benchmark that year (everyone bar Force India and Super Aguri had a driver who would be either former or future race winner, Force India and Super Aguri had Sutil and Sato who managed to finish inside top10 in WDC in other seasons with a right car so there's no way they would have scored 0 points in a car better than BMW)- there's no way they were anything worse than 3rd car over the season. The argument could be made that it could have been better than 3rd but the only reason it came relatively close in the standings was that both Ferrari and McLaren lost way more points due to driver mistakes and operational ****-ups than a top team is expected to lose while BMW minimised their losses better. Their pace advantage over BMW, barring a couple of races, was clear enough so that it makes little sense to conlude BMW was the better car but the drivers underperformed so much, because, as I said earlier, Heidfeld had been on the grid for long enough and had shown enough performance so that we can safely assume he wouldn't be THAT MUCH off the pace in a car that was better than Ferrari or McLaren.

So yeah, we can't know for sure but the assumption that it was 3rd best car seems to be much more reasonable than any other.


Edited by Anderis, 21 April 2019 - 08:46.


#1086 HermannH

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 08:58

Did HK or PM ever lead the championship in the third best car on the grid? RK not only won a race. He was leading the championship in the third best car and was in the championship contention almost to the end of the season (despite his team's early switch to the next season's car with KERS). 4 cars were better than his car and still he managed to outperform his rivals. He was almost flawless.

 

That had mostly to do with his rivals that year making mistake after mistake, not so much about his superb driving, he just avoided the mistakes. But yeah he was pretty good that year. 

Still, at the same time Kubica was beaten on points by Heidfeld in both 2007 and in 2009 and Nick was not that exceptional of a driver. 



#1087 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:55

https://www.autospor...or-williams-woe

Is Bobby firing another shot at Williams? 🤔

#1088 Tsarwash

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 10:32

That had mostly to do with his rivals that year making mistake after mistake, not so much about his superb driving, he just avoided the mistakes. But yeah he was pretty good that year. 

Still, at the same time Kubica was beaten on points by Heidfeld in both 2007 and in 2009 and Nick was not that exceptional of a driver. 

I can't remember the season that much, but a check on wiki suggests that Kubica also has a share of unlucky incidents that were not necessarily to do with him. This was only a cursory check however. 



#1089 Tsarwash

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 10:38

Did HK or PM ever lead the championship in the third best car on the grid? RK not only won a race.

It's fully OT in this thread, but we really should give credit for Vettel in 2008 for winning a race in the 6th or 7th best car on the grid that year. If we are going to be fair about it.



#1090 MadYarpen

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:02

https://www.autospor...or-williams-woe

Is Bobby firing another shot at Williams?

 

IMO, it's quite reasonable what he is saying...



#1091 realracer200

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:27

That had mostly to do with his rivals that year making mistake after mistake, not so much about his superb driving, he just avoided the mistakes. But yeah he was pretty good that year. 

Still, at the same time Kubica was beaten on points by Heidfeld in both 2007 and in 2009 and Nick was not that exceptional of a driver. 

 

Well if his rivals in better cars made "mistake after mistake" as you claim and he didn't that means that he did a very good job. And he did have some great drives that season, for example i remember his wheel to wheel battle with Raikkonen at the Japanese Gp which superb defensive driving by Kubica. As for Heidfeld being not "that exceptional of a driver", I don't know about that, he did beat Raikkonen, Massa, Villeneuve etc.


Edited by realracer200, 21 April 2019 - 13:53.


#1092 tghik

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:28

IMO, it's quite reasonable what he is saying...

 

It is but still it's mainly Paddy's fault. It's his decision to fire chief aero guy and head designer, following no replacement for Smadley.As no R/D department can operate efficiently without top designers I didn't comment on Williams as a team for some time because the situation seems desperate. It's just beyond my comprehension how they just fire key designers (and in reflection it wasn't a good decision simply because the car is even worse so Lowe used them as the scapegoats) and just accept the fact the team functions in the current state.

 

RK is right but top guys make that group of many ppl he mentions.



#1093 sopa

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 15:46

---

(everyone bar Force India and Super Aguri had a driver who would be either former or future race winner, Force India and Super Aguri had Sutil and Sato who managed to finish inside top10 in WDC in other seasons with a right car so there's no way they would have scored 0 points in a car better than BMW)- there's no way they were anything worse than 3rd car over the season. 

---

 

Just as a minor sidenote - Force India had race winner Fisichella as their driver. :)

 

But overall I agree. BMW seems to have been 3rd best car. Kubica mounting a title challenge in it would be a bit reminiscent of Frentzen doing the same in 1999, also in the 3rd best car. Whether they were so stunningly fast to achieve that feat is up for debate, but they certainly made fewer errors than title contenders ahead of them. And as Button has showed, making few mistakes and capitalizing on opportunities is often what counts.

 

However, I also think Kubica was genuinely quick in 2008. IIRC he thoroughly outqualified Heidfeld that year.

 

All this has no relevance on Kubica's 2019 performance though, just like Badoer wasn't the same driver in 2009 as he had been a decade before...



#1094 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 15:54

 

All this has no relevance on Kubica's 2019 performance though, just like Badoer wasn't the same driver in 2009 as he had been a decade before...

 

Hopefully, with this, we can move on from what isn't really an on topic discussion.



#1095 Nathan

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 16:01

I've found as many videos with Johnathon Williams as I can on YouTube and others, and one thing that stands out is he is a bit of a know-it-all and doesn't seem to be the type to play well with others.  Watch enough of him (mind you I'd spend time with the guy because his knowledge is just impressive.) and you see why he got looked over.  He sure did an excellent job with the Williams museum though.



#1096 Counterbalance

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 16:07

I've found as many videos with Johnathon Williams as I can on YouTube and others, and one thing that stands out is he is a bit of a know-it-all and doesn't seem to be the type to play well with others. Watch enough of him (mind you I'd spend time with the guy because his knowledge is just impressive.) and you see why he got looked over. He sure did an excellent job with the Williams museum though.


I got that impression, too. Peter Windsor seems be his biggest fan, though.

Edited by Counterbalance, 21 April 2019 - 16:09.


#1097 RacingGreen

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 20:06

https://www.autospor...or-williams-woe

Is Bobby firing another shot at Williams?

 

Everyone on this forum by now must know I'm not a fan of RK's, and in particularly his media comments, BUT the key part of this story is at the very beginning "When asked if he had an answer over how Lowe's leadership at Williams had not been a success.....". So RK isn't being a loose canon here and shooting his mouth off like some in house JJC Villeneuve he is replying directly to a question put to him by a journalist. If he had just posted those comments on Twitter without responding to a question I'd be very critical and saying why doesn't he just keep his opinions to himself BUT as it is I think he was just stating the bleeding obvious and wasn't really put in a position where a "no comment" would have been any better. That's called good journalism and whoever did the interview should be commended. I suppose RK could have said "Everyone at the factory and design team is working hard etc etc .. Spin....Spin.... PR bollocks ...More PR bollocks....etc etc." but what he said isn't untrue or damaging to the team anyway.



#1098 Maxioos

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 20:41

https://www.autospor...or-williams-woe
Is Bobby firing another shot at Williams?


I don't think anyone believes it's a one man's fault and solution.

#1099 RacingGreen

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Posted 21 April 2019 - 20:41

Johnathon Williams .........  He sure did an excellent job with the Williams museum though.

 

Being the curator of 20m GDP worth of assets in a museum that are NOT in competition OR expected to produce a high rate of return is hardly the qualification for running a  F1 team operating on a budget of 138m GBP a year.

 

NOTE

Figures as of 2018 from https://www.williams...nancial-reports


Edited by RacingGreen, 21 April 2019 - 20:43.


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#1100 Nathan

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 13:06

Well no, obviously.