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Williams: Drivers, management and other folks at Grove 2019


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#1101 tghik

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 14:46

I don't think anyone believes it's a one man's fault and solution.

 

So I got to ask this: who is responsible for letting head of aerodynamic department Dirk de Beer go, an let go of chief designer Ed Wood, replace Smadley? isn't it Lowe ? it is. Now who did he hire as replacement, and did the result improve ? no.

 

It's not 1 person's fault but there is mainly one person responsible. Unless Lowe received a hiring freeze instruction from Claire or cost reduction in hiring ...



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#1102 New Britain

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 16:04

Just as a minor sidenote - Force India had race winner Fisichella as their driver. :)

 

But overall I agree. BMW seems to have been 3rd best car. Kubica mounting a title challenge in it would be a bit reminiscent of Frentzen doing the same in 1999, also in the 3rd best car. Whether they were so stunningly fast to achieve that feat is up for debate, but they certainly made fewer errors than title contenders ahead of them. And as Button has showed, making few mistakes and capitalizing on opportunities is often what counts.

 

However, I also think Kubica was genuinely quick in 2008. IIRC he thoroughly outqualified Heidfeld that year.

 

All this has no relevance on Kubica's 2019 performance though, just like Badoer wasn't the same driver in 2009 as he had been a decade before...

You do recall correctly.

In 2008, out of 18 races, Kubica out-qualified Heidfeld in 13 of them.

It was not just a matter of minor shadings, either. All together and including the races when Heidfeld started ahead, Kubica's starting positions were a net 51 places ahead of Heidfeld's. Kubica also had one pole.



#1103 Rinehart

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 08:57

The loser of this team battle will likely be out of F1 next year. So they both know what’s at stake.

 

 

Tbh, if Kubica doesn't improve and close his trap a bit, I can see him talking himself out of his seat before the end of the year.

The last thing they need is a slower driver with physical limitations requiring additional engineering solutions taking focus away from the real engineering priorities whilst publically adding pressure to the team. 

Autosport are currently reporting rather favorably about the turmoil at Williams and people here make it sound like they need a new floor and a few quid... 



#1104 tghik

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 15:28

Tbh, if Kubica doesn't improve and close his trap a bit, I can see him talking himself out of his seat before the end of the year.

The last thing they need is a slower driver with physical limitations requiring additional engineering solutions taking focus away from the real engineering priorities whilst publically adding pressure to the team. 

Autosport are currently reporting rather favorably about the turmoil at Williams and people here make it sound like they need a new floor and a few quid... 

 

Stupid comment although I've read even worse ones. What gap ? In qualifying it's hard to even call it a gap, not to mention Russell has 8% more downforce on his car. Was it Stroll or Sirotkin he would outqualify them twice already in a sick car. While in race he would be right behind GR if not for bad pitstop. He gets closer and closer more to do with unequal cars than anything, but even that how ppl already demand to replace him after 3 races when he was 8 years away is crazy. Schumacher got his arse well kicked for 3 years, not 3 races and nobody called for his removal. Absolutely stupid.



#1105 Paco

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 15:32

You do recall correctly.

In 2008, out of 18 races, Kubica out-qualified Heidfeld in 13 of them.

It was not just a matter of minor shadings, either. All together and including the races when Heidfeld started ahead, Kubica's starting positions were a net 51 places ahead of Heidfeld's. Kubica also had one pole.

 

You do get that was over 10 years ago, prior to a massive injury and a VERY VERY different era of car and especially tire characteristics.  He''s clearly said (very much like Gasly) that he has trouble getting the power down out of corners (the cars just pull away from him).. so just accept what the man says from the horses mouth.    He also is confused about how keep the tires workable over a race distance.. accept him for his word.  They are things very foreign to him from his previous experience.. add age to that .. and it's a tall ask of him.. was always going to be and its fine .. especially in the car he is in becasue he isn't the reason they are not 10 places up the grid fighting for 1 point.. this isn't a Mclaren Alonso Vandoorne issue  where 1 driver is costing them points.. he's lucky to have not been in a better ride and being exposed.



#1106 Paco

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 15:43

Stupid comment although I've read even worse ones. What gap ? In qualifying it's hard to even call it a gap, not to mention Russell has 8% more downforce on his car. Was it Stroll or Sirotkin he would outqualify them twice already in a sick car. While in race he would be right behind GR if not for bad pitstop. He gets closer and closer more to do with unequal cars than anything, but even that how ppl already demand to replace him after 3 races when he was 8 years away is crazy. Schumacher got his arse well kicked for 3 years, not 3 races and nobody called for his removal. Absolutely stupid.\

 

There is no indication that the reporting of 8% was still an ongoing issue (that was a long time ago already by F1 standards) (if it every was a real problem), that his floor is still an issue, they showed up with an engine cover change in China so obviously production is happening unless that was already done prior to the start of the season..  People seem to be really stuck on that 8% quote but Robert seems to have moved on as that being a significant reason for his race performance gap and Russell hardly ever even suggests that Robert's car has a "known" defect that hasn't been corrected.



#1107 Paco

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 15:45

You do get that was over 10 years ago, prior to a massive injury and a VERY VERY different era of car and especially tire characteristics.  He''s clearly said (very much like Gasly) that he has trouble getting the power down out of corners (the cars just pull away from him).. so just accept what the man says from the horses mouth.    He also is confused about how keep the tires workable over a race distance.. accept him for his word.  They are things very foreign to him from his previous experience.. add age to that .. and it's a tall ask of him.. was always going to be and its fine .. especially in the car he is in becasue he isn't the reason they are not 10 places up the grid fighting for 1 point.. this isn't a Mclaren Alonso Vandoorne issue  where 1 driver is costing them points.. he's lucky to have not been in a better ride and being exposed to taking time to get up to speed.



#1108 Muppetmad

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 16:09

It does say a lot about the intentions of some here that...:

 

a) after three races;

b) after three races where - with one exception where an entirely unextraordinary mistake occurred - the two drivers have qualified within a tenth of each other;

c) after three races where - with one exception where an entirely unextraordinary turn one incident occurred - the two drivers have been exchanging places during the race or otherwise on a different strategy and with differing fortune in their pit stops;

d) after three races where the two drivers have been driving terrible cars which could not reasonably be claimed to possibly be able to have finished in significantly better positions;

e) after three races where the two drivers have been openly acknowledged to have not been driving equal cars;

 

...they wish to still draw conclusions on the performances of the duo, the future of their performances and their futures in the sport.



#1109 tghik

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 16:30

There is no indication that the reporting of 8% was still an ongoing issue (that was a long time ago already by F1 standards) (if it every was a real problem), that his floor is still an issue, they showed up with an engine cover change in China so obviously production is happening unless that was already done prior to the start of the season..  People seem to be really stuck on that 8% quote but Robert seems to have moved on as that being a significant reason for his race performance gap and Russell hardly ever even suggests that Robert's car has a "known" defect that hasn't been corrected.

 

How did they correct it if they swapped the floor and FW for FP1/2 in China and gave them back to Russell on Saturday ? Kubica said he was much happier on Friday but on Sat the behavior was shitty again. Now you have to ask why they didn't leave the parts on Kubica's car for the remaining of the weekend ? At least they did try something, which confirmed there is a problem on RK's car.


Edited by tghik, 23 April 2019 - 16:39.


#1110 New Britain

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 17:01

You do get that was over 10 years ago, prior to a massive injury and a VERY VERY different era of car and especially tire characteristics.  He''s clearly said (very much like Gasly) that he has trouble getting the power down out of corners (the cars just pull away from him).. so just accept what the man says from the horses mouth.    He also is confused about how keep the tires workable over a race distance.. accept him for his word.  They are things very foreign to him from his previous experience.. add age to that .. and it's a tall ask of him.. was always going to be and its fine .. especially in the car he is in becasue he isn't the reason they are not 10 places up the grid fighting for 1 point.. this isn't a Mclaren Alonso Vandoorne issue  where 1 driver is costing them points.. he's lucky to have not been in a better ride and being exposed.

I wasn't taking sides, old boy. I was merely trying to flesh out a point someone made. I spent the time to examine the historical record and then posted the facts. It's got nothing to do with whether I "get" something. I have no opinion on the question in dispute and do not much care about it either; was only trying to help.



#1111 Rinehart

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 18:30

Stupid comment although I've read even worse ones. What gap ? In qualifying it's hard to even call it a gap, not to mention Russell has 8% more downforce on his car. Was it Stroll or Sirotkin he would outqualify them twice already in a sick car. While in race he would be right behind GR if not for bad pitstop. He gets closer and closer more to do with unequal cars than anything, but even that how ppl already demand to replace him after 3 races when he was 8 years away is crazy. Schumacher got his arse well kicked for 3 years, not 3 races and nobody called for his removal. Absolutely stupid.

Have to say your defensiveness is getting pretty tiresome and bogging down this thread. I'm sure if Kubica was 10 seconds off the pace you'd find a way to present it that he was actually ahead. 

Btw I'm NOT calling for him to be replaced I'm saying it's might transpire, tis all. 



#1112 Rinehart

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 18:41

It does say a lot about the intentions of some here that...:

 

a) after three races;

b) after three races where - with one exception where an entirely unextraordinary mistake occurred - the two drivers have qualified within a tenth of each other;

c) after three races where - with one exception where an entirely unextraordinary turn one incident occurred - the two drivers have been exchanging places during the race or otherwise on a different strategy and with differing fortune in their pit stops;

d) after three races where the two drivers have been driving terrible cars which could not reasonably be claimed to possibly be able to have finished in significantly better positions;

e) after three races where the two drivers have been openly acknowledged to have not been driving equal cars;

 

...they wish to still draw conclusions on the performances of the duo, the future of their performances and their futures in the sport.

 

I'm sure a lot of us for whom you are tarnishing with the "agenda brush" were actually desperately hoping for a fairytale script where a once fantastic driver returned after a horrific injury and 8 years out to show the world that he could reach that former level again . I know I was one. But after 3 races, with an objective grasp of the context, I don't feel remotely guilty in suggesting its not looking likely, so far. Sorry, No agenda, it's the opposite of what I wanted, but sadly exactly what I feared. I actually beleive the 8 years out is the bigger obstacle than the injury. Still I think it remains a marvelous achievement to have got this far. I don't expect the over excited defence committee to accept this as the reasonable post it clearly is...



#1113 Muppetmad

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 19:19

I'm sure a lot of us for whom you are tarnishing with the "agenda brush" were actually desperately hoping for a fairytale script where a once fantastic driver returned after a horrific injury and 8 years out to show the world that he could reach that former level again . I know I was one. But after 3 races, with an objective grasp of the context, I don't feel remotely guilty in suggesting its not looking likely, so far. Sorry, No agenda, it's the opposite of what I wanted, but sadly exactly what I feared. I actually beleive the 8 years out is the bigger obstacle than the injury. Still I think it remains a marvelous achievement to have got this far. I don't expect the over excited defence committee to accept this as the reasonable post it clearly is...

I respect the fact you were hoping for a more auspicious start to the year - I don't share your optimism about the hopes of others, but I don't wish to derail the topic on that point - but your claim to have an "object grasp of the context" rings hollow. If the rest of the season plays out like this, sure, I'll say some of your judgements are broadly fair. As it stands, saying after three races that you're seeing "exactly what I feared" screams of confirmation bias. The fact you've referenced Kubica's "physical limitations" above where there is no tangible evidence these have posed any problem rather backs this up.

 

Broadly, are things looking good so far? No. But with such a small sample to work with, what does that actually tell us? There are 21 races in the season. Either the coming races will confirm your fears or challenge them. Once we've actually seen enough to work with, I'll be happy to draw some conclusions and agree/disagree with what you've said where appropriate. But as it stands, sorry, the premature rush to judgement absolutely suggests something on the part of those engaging in it. Me? As I've said here before, I support both drivers; the only result at the end of the season I would find disappointing would be if either driver didn't get the chance to show their full potential. As it stands, neither has been able to do that because of the car - hopefully the coming races will correct this.

 

Edit: In case anybody presumes I'm simply being rhetorical in taking this position, I welcome you to look up my position in various previous threads on Lance Stroll. Coming into F1, I was of the opinion he'd be a liability. But I refused to come to decisive judgements early on, feeling he deserved some time to settle in, and by the end of his first season I concluded he'd done better than I had expected.


Edited by Muppetmad, 23 April 2019 - 19:34.


#1114 andrewlee

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 19:29

It all boils down to how unequal the cars are.

The 'pro-Kubica' (in quotes because not everybody who is of this opinion necessarily supports Kubica) camp believes that the cars differ significantly and there are actually facts that corroborate it - Kubica admitting it, Russell admitting it, team switching parts/cars between sessions, Mark Hughes report of 8% difference in aero balance.

The 'anti-Kubica' (again) guys do not believe the cars are different or that the difference is small, effectively trying to make a case that the above facts do not matter or are blown out of proportion.

 

I'd say that any of these alternatives are somewhat believable..

 

Some people only see 3-0 in Q and 3-0 in the race and that's it for them, however looking only at the simplest statistic and ignoring all the context can be deceptive.

 

Looking at the last 2 races the difference between the drivers in Q and in the race has actually been quite small.



#1115 pdac

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 20:11

It all boils down to how unequal the cars are.

The 'pro-Kubica' (in quotes because not everybody who is of this opinion necessarily supports Kubica) camp believes that the cars differ significantly and there are actually facts that corroborate it - Kubica admitting it, Russell admitting it, team switching parts/cars between sessions, Mark Hughes report of 8% difference in aero balance.

The 'anti-Kubica' (again) guys do not believe the cars are different or that the difference is small, effectively trying to make a case that the above facts do not matter or are blown out of proportion.

 

I'd say that any of these alternatives are somewhat believable..

 

Some people only see 3-0 in Q and 3-0 in the race and that's it for them, however looking only at the simplest statistic and ignoring all the context can be deceptive.

 

Looking at the last 2 races the difference between the drivers in Q and in the race has actually been quite small.

 

I would say nothing boils down the difference in the cars. It all boils down to the fact that NEITHER car is at all reasonable, so NOTHING can be judged by the results of either driver. Some people thing there is. I say they are either stupid (unlikely) or extremely biased in their judgement.



#1116 tghik

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 20:52

I would say nothing boils down the difference in the cars. It all boils down to the fact that NEITHER car is at all reasonable, so NOTHING can be judged by the results of either driver. Some people thing there is. I say they are either stupid (unlikely) or extremely biased in their judgement.

Sorry, I don't see your point. Why, if both cars are equal, same strategies applied, no bias treatment in the background, why would it be impossible to conclude something about their relative strengths and weaknesses ?



#1117 pdac

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 21:01

Sorry, I don't see your point. Why, if both cars are equal, same strategies applied, no bias treatment in the background, why would it be impossible to conclude something about their relative strengths and weaknesses ?

 

Because all you would be comparing is how well a driver gets on with a lousy car. But that means precious little. If they were a team that had a lousy car, but not too lousy - so that it were possible to actually beat other teams, then it might be relevant.But with this car it's not.



#1118 tghik

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 10:45

Because all you would be comparing is how well a driver gets on with a lousy car. But that means precious little. If they were a team that had a lousy car, but not too lousy - so that it were possible to actually beat other teams, then it might be relevant.But with this car it's not.

It borders exaggeration a little bit. Even 1 sec slower doesn't make it a different series, it's like going back few years only, it's still an F1 car.

Obviously from a "lousy car" to the present crop of cars someone can't draw any conclusions about overtaking, but you certainly can judge everything else like tire management, qualifying etc... All you need is fairness in treatment which may be questionable with the problems Williams is having.



#1119 taran

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 12:46

I would say nothing boils down the difference in the cars. It all boils down to the fact that NEITHER car is at all reasonable, so NOTHING can be judged by the results of either driver. Some people thing there is. I say they are either stupid (unlikely) or extremely biased in their judgement.

 

I think you are giving casual fans and even teams, with their alleged ability to see beyond simple results, too much credit because everything is judged by driver results. Not by excuses or different car specs or bad luck etc. If Leclerc doesn't win a race this year, nobody is going to give him credit for his near miss at Bahrein. If near misses counted, my man Jacques Laffite would have been a WDC or Andrea de Cesaris would have won Grands Prix.

 

The simple fact is that Kubica is 0-3 down in qualifying and 0-3 down in the races.

Alonso probably had better specs for some races but all everyone remembers is that he murdered Vandoorne in qualifying and the races.

 

You're trying desperately to convince people that Williams is too bad a car to allow comparisons and that Kubica isn't actually that far behind Russell but IMO that's just a deluded Kubica fan grasping at straws. It doesn't matter that the Williams can't compete with other cars, it just means their drivers have to beat each other. And being close to Russell isn't good enough if you're Robert Kubica, former ace driver and supposed experienced team leader.



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#1120 Muppetmad

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 13:20

You're trying desperately to convince people that Williams is too bad a car to allow comparisons and that Kubica isn't actually that far behind Russell but IMO that's just a deluded Kubica fan grasping at straws.

Uh... have you read pdac's posts in this thread? You've miscued pretty acutely here.



#1121 tghik

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 17:59

And being close to Russell isn't good enough if you're Robert Kubica, former ace driver and supposed experienced team leader.

 

I wonder then how you explain Schumacher losing to Rosberg ?



#1122 RacingGreen

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 19:51

Because all you would be comparing is how well a driver gets on with a lousy car. But that means precious little. If they were a team that had a lousy car, but not too lousy - so that it were possible to actually beat other teams, then it might be relevant.But with this car it's not.

 

It doesn't matter if it's a lousy car or a rocket ship you can judge them on the basis of "do they get the best out of the machinery they have available?" If one driver gets more out of the car he is doing a better job. 
Now with this year's car we appear to have the complication that the two chassis may not be equal as discussed at length already. If however all things are equal enough to make little difference I think we are already seeing a trend with one driver doing a better job even in this turd of a vehicle. 


#1123 ClubmanGT

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 22:53

I wonder then how you explain Schumacher losing to Rosberg ?

 

That would involve saying Rosberg wasn't that good, but he got one over Hamilton. So that's not something most English-speaking fans will do.



#1124 noikeee

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 23:59

I wonder then how you explain Schumacher losing to Rosberg ?


Because Michael Schumacher, as incredible as he was at his peak, one of the greatest ever unquestionably, was a bit past it in his 40s and not good enough to be a top top driver anymore? Honestly it was that simple to me, I'm not sure why do we need any more mental gymnastics.

Seems to be something similar is happening to Kubica, although in different circumstances, not due to age, but due to an injury, a much longer break from F1 and a considerably different formula that might suit him less. He used to be a wonderful driver but sadly doesn't seem to be as competitive anymore. Early days in the season yet though, I might be wrong and he can still turn it around.

#1125 tghik

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 01:32

Because Michael Schumacher, as incredible as he was at his peak, one of the greatest ever unquestionably, was a bit past it in his 40s and not good enough to be a top top driver anymore? Honestly it was that simple to me, I'm not sure why do we need any more mental gymnastics.

Seems to be something similar is happening to Kubica, although in different circumstances, not due to age, but due to an injury, a much longer break from F1 and a considerably different formula that might suit him less. He used to be a wonderful driver but sadly doesn't seem to be as competitive anymore. Early days in the season yet though, I might be wrong and he can still turn it around.

 

First of all my question was a direct response to taran's "being close to Russell isn't good enough if you're Robert Kubica, former ace driver and supposed experienced team leader". If according to this Kubica is supposed beat Russell, then Schumacher should beat his teammate even more so because he is a 7-times WDC. And well let's be honest, Schumi was in a more comfortable position than RK, many ppl are convinced he should not be in F1 so the stress weight is enormous, only couple of years off, no hand injury, 3 years to show he can be on top. Can't use double standards. If it's acceptable for Schumacher to lose for 3 consecutive years with much less stress on his shoulders, but it's not ok for Kubica only after 3 races then there is something wrong.

 

"considerably different formula that might suit him less" I don't think so, he has more experience with different kind of cars. The real problem is that not only he drives the lousy Williams, but on top of that his car is sick compared to his teammate's. Double whammy. Once they make equal machinery for both, you'll see different results. That's my opinion and you can hold it against me if I'm wrong.

 

As to Schumi vs Nico, Schumi got slightly closer as their stay together continued, if it was his age the problem then the gap should increase not decrease. The usual age factor doesn't stand for me. Schumacher was in a protective bubble at Ferrari, as is Vettel now. Rosberg was/is underrated, being so close to Hamilton paints the picture that people somehow don't see. Hamilton/Alonso/Kubica in his prime would blow Schum to pieces imo, but this is outside of this topic.



#1126 SenorSjon

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 08:00

I wonder then how you explain Schumacher losing to Rosberg ?

 

He was a bit overweight in his first return season, but in his third year he was faster than Rosberg. Only problem was he hit trouble 7 times in a row at the start of the season when the Merc was still fast. In the latter part of 2012, Ferrari, Lotus, McLaren and Red Bull all got the best of the Mercedes. In the last 7 races, they only had one point scoring position each. After Canada (DRS failure), he always finished in front of Rosberg the rest of the season bar 1 race (USA). It is hard to remember the Mercedes having horrible reliability seeing the bulletproof cars from 2014 onwards.



#1127 taran

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 08:58

Uh... have you read pdac's posts in this thread? You've miscued pretty acutely here.

 

Did I???

I was responding to his statement that "It all boils down to the fact that NEITHER car is at all reasonable, so NOTHING can be judged by the results of either driver."

 

As I said in my post, I think both drivers will indeed be judged on their results, irrespective of the quality of their car or their alleged/apparent differing specs.

 

I have been rereading my old 1980s annual reviews recently and those journos give very little leeway to the drivers of the crapcars of the day, the back of the grid teams like Osella, Rial, AGS, etc. These teams were on the verge of bankruptcy most of the time and their cars were barely functional but the drivers still had to perform.

 


 



#1128 taran

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 09:07

I wonder then how you explain Schumacher losing to Rosberg ?

 

There are some excellent answers to this question already so I'll focus on Schumacher's loss of reputation instead.

When he returned in 2010, Mercedes and Schumacher expected to put up a title bid. It was clearly stated in all the annual previews of the season.

 

The reigning championship team, with the super Brawn car, now with Mercedes money and Schumacher driving....how could it be otherwise?

 

The disappointment was great but Schumacher & Mercedes were forgiven a bit because Brawn's lack of funding in 2009 was made the scapegoat. But as the years rolled by and Schumacher didn't do great feats and indeed Rosberg was as good or better, his reputation received a severe hit. From him being 'over the hill' to 'was he ever that good?'.

And this was the most successful driver in history.

 

So if Schumacher's abilities could be questioned after failing to beat Rosberg, as Hill's was after failing to beat Diniz, why do people think Kubica will get a pass? You simply have to beat or at least consistently match your teammate.

 

 

And if the point is that Kubica is rusty and just needs time to get up to speed, just like Schumacher did.....

How did that work out for Schumacher? His contract wasn't renewed and his reputation and legacy was damaged.

Kubica could have sharpened his skills by driving in other series before attempting a F1 comeback. He didn't.

So I am not sure it's a valid excuse as I don't think Williams is willing or able to give him a couple of seasons to get back up to speed.


Edited by taran, 25 April 2019 - 09:32.


#1129 statman

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 09:17

Sorry, I don't see your point. Why, if both cars are equal, same strategies applied, no bias treatment in the background, why would it be impossible to conclude something about their relative strengths and weaknesses ?

 

because, as you have demonstrated before, there's a whole load of excuses you're going to use and in your eyes it's never going to be 'non-bias treatment':

 

* 'he was in traffic'

* 'made a slight error in sector 3, could've gone much quicker'

* 'was running with more fuel'

* 'the other guy got a tow'

* the other guy was on fresher tyres'

* 'something must be wrong with the car'

 

this happened during the Renault tests (where Kub was not picked), during his so-called shootout with Sirotkin (where Kub was not picked), and during pre-season testing...

 

and we're seeing the same saga this season.



#1130 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 12:21

If this is going to be an excuses thread can we at least stick to Kubica and other aspects of the Williams team and not for Schumacher back in the day.



#1131 pdac

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 12:39

 

It doesn't matter if it's a lousy car or a rocket ship you can judge them on the basis of "do they get the best out of the machinery they have available?" If one driver gets more out of the car he is doing a better job. 
Now with this year's car we appear to have the complication that the two chassis may not be equal as discussed at length already. If however all things are equal enough to make little difference I think we are already seeing a trend with one driver doing a better job even in this turd of a vehicle. 

 

 

This is just plain wrong. It does indeed matter how lousy the car is.

 

If the car is lousy, but your competitors also have lousy cars then the team will expect their drivers to make the most of what they have - because maximising points means beating your opponents.

 

If (as is the case here) the car is so bad that, no matter what the driver does, it will not be possible to beat any of your opponents, then there is absolutely no benefit in trying to maximise what you have. What is much more important is getting to understand the car and gather data that will help the designers build something better.

 

Only fans care about seeing what the car can do. The team wants to know not what it can do, but how to make it competitive - which are different things.

 

CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING


Edited by pdac, 25 April 2019 - 12:39.


#1132 hansmann

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 13:03

If this is going to be an excuses thread can we at least stick to Kubica and other aspects of the Williams team and not for Schumacher back in the day.

 

Amen, brother ! ;)

 

It's a pity that Kubica apologist take up so much space in the thread, when the fate of one of F1's greatest teams is at stake .

I can't figure out the personell decissions at Williams, or how they might lead to a better future, but they don't seem to be going in the right direction - or any direction .

Hard to say given their position in the field for the past few seasons .

 

How can they be so bad for so long, when most other midfield teams manage to work their way up at some point, or at least have the occasional moment of success ? 

 

Granted, their driver choices don't help , with a rookie intern and a has-been pay driver at the helm ; Massa is greatly missed I suspect .



#1133 TomNokoe

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 13:17

Kubica: No "clear solution" to car differences

https://www.autospor...erences--kubica

#1134 Dunc

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 13:21

Amen, brother !  ;)

 

It's a pity that Kubica apologist take up so much space in the thread, when the fate of one of F1's greatest teams is at stake .

I can't figure out the personell decissions at Williams, or how they might lead to a better future, but they don't seem to be going in the right direction - or any direction .

Hard to say given their position in the field for the past few seasons .

 

How can they be so bad for so long, when most other midfield teams manage to work their way up at some point, or at least have the occasional moment of success ? 

 

Granted, their driver choices don't help , with a rookie intern and a has-been pay driver at the helm ; Massa is greatly missed I suspect .

 

A great comment. 

 

I have been a Williams fan since 1992 when I first got into F1 but I'm now starting to wonder, is it time for the team to pack it all in? I would rather it wasn't there than kept embarrassing itself season after season 2014 & 2015 seemed to indicate a return to form but alas, it was not to be.



#1135 Paco

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 13:56

I personally want to see how well a privateer is able to go, a comeback story would be great and proof to other teams a few off years is ok and too stick around.  I just haven't seen anything in them though to get us a glimmer of hope other then Patrick coming into the for the time being.

 

I think Williams should drop the AMG, pickup a Honda or Renault and restart fresh.  Yeah, that would set them back a bit but could reenergize the technical departments.  Plus, both of those PU have way more headspace then apparently AMG have so in-time, that could prove benefical.



#1136 Paco

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 14:02

Kubica: No "clear solution" to car differences

https://www.autospor...erences--kubica

 

So are we to believe Williams still have no spare tub... if they are bringing updates as suggested this week then the production shop is running..  I can not believe they are unable to give him a new car as they surely have to have a full spare by now..  so are they suggesting it's not the tub, floor or aero bits that is causing his current chassis 1 to behave differently.. so give the dude the new spare and put the current one to spare in the event of a big off..

 

OR can that not even address it..        CONFUSED.. CONFUSED..

 

Man I wish the team would be more truthful and forthcoming with what is happening with a backup spare and if that has been tried..

 

Perhaps the issue isn't in Kubica Chassis 1 and the Spare but the fact that someone, it was Russell's chassis one that is the odd ball... making things even harder to understand.. 

 

Crazy that even by Baku these guys can't get to root of the problem.  That's even worse then their solemness of missing most of week 1 testing.. if they can't even understand what's off with Kubica..



#1137 Gemini

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 14:38

Season 2 on Netflix will include entire episode focused on Kubica complaining about his car being different  :p   ;)   ;)



#1138 SenorSjon

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 14:42

I personally want to see how well a privateer is able to go, a comeback story would be great and proof to other teams a few off years is ok and too stick around.  I just haven't seen anything in them though to get us a glimmer of hope other then Patrick coming into the for the time being.

 

I think Williams should drop the AMG, pickup a Honda or Renault and restart fresh.  Yeah, that would set them back a bit but could reenergize the technical departments.  Plus, both of those PU have way more headspace then apparently AMG have so in-time, that could prove benefical.

 

That will be team suicide if they give up on the Merc. I rather have them pick the rear assembly with gearbox from Mercedes instead of trying to figure it out themselves and get it wrong. They could focus a lot more on their aero problems then.



#1139 f1rules

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 14:54

I have to say, i found it really nice that kubica got a seat at williams after his long hard fight... but, he is starting to annoy with his constant negativity and interviews, just drive kubica

Edited by f1rules, 25 April 2019 - 14:55.


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#1140 pdac

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 14:56

I'd prefer they keep the Merc, forget this season, work on a brand new car for next season and come back fighting again. Personally, I would like, if it were possible, for them not to turn up at a race again until they get back to Europe and have a new car ready to try out - but I guess that's not possible with their FOM deal.



#1141 Nathan

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 14:57

How do you energize your design department downgrading PU's?



#1142 pdac

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 14:59

I have to say, i found it really nice that kubica got a seat at williams after his long hard fight... but, he is starting to annoy with his constant negativity and interviews, just drive kubica

 

I don't care if he's negative or positive, but just stop the interviews - we know he can't do anything more without a decent car, so what is there left to say?



#1143 pdac

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 15:02

How do you energize your design department downgrading PU's?

 

I get the feeling that many here do not have the faintest idea of how to motivate a team of people and get the best out of them. I get the impression that a lot think it's about pointing out the poor quality work they've done, shouting at them and threatening to fire them if they don't improve.



#1144 backwards7

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 15:04

I remember Kubica being good in his day. Not world champion material, but certainly in the upper tier of drivers. Before his accident, he likely had more podiums and race victories ahead of him.

 

In Formula One years, all that was a long time ago. I understand that he has brought money into Williams. I can't really see what else he brings.

 

He is a man in his mid-30s, bearing the legacy of a serious injury. There is often something to be said for an older driver taking a seat at an under-performing team and using their experience to guide development. However, Kubica has been away from the front-line of the sport for years. His direct experience of current-era F1 is spotty and minimal. He has never struck me as one of those drivers who have the force of personality to take the reins in a team. In any case, Williams seem to be in such disarray, it is questionable whether the drivers can do anything other than make sure that the bolts holding their cars together aren't painted-on.   

 

I admire Kubica's spirit. He has doggedly fought his way back from a tragedy that would have ended many careers. I would not, for one moment, have begrudged him an Indian Summer, where he would out-qualify his team-mate and get more out of the car than was expected. Maybe all of that will still happen, but on current performance, it doesn't seem likely. I think the best that can be hoped for is a single race where the stars align and we see a fleeting glimpse of Kubica as he was at his peak. Unless there is some large financial incentive in play, I can't see him on the grid in 2020.



#1145 TomNokoe

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 15:35

I have to say, i found it really nice that kubica got a seat at williams after his long hard fight... but, he is starting to annoy with his constant negativity and interviews, just drive kubica

 


I think this is just a consequence of Kubica's eloquence and willingness to talk to journalists. Many other drivers would simply give a standard answer "yes we are pushing very hard, the car doesn't feel great but the guys at the factory are doing everything they can", whereas Kubica takes the time to provide a detailed answer.

#1146 Tsarwash

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 15:41

I'd prefer they keep the Merc, forget this season, work on a brand new car for next season and come back fighting again. Personally, I would like, if it were possible, for them not to turn up at a race again until they get back to Europe and have a new car ready to try out - but I guess that's not possible with their FOM deal.

Obviously this season is a write off in terms of results, but I am sure that they need to keep on pushing as hard as their resources will allow in order to attempt to keep whatever sponsors, drivers and key personnel with the team. I wish more information was forthcoming and we knew what the situation really was / is with Paddy. 



#1147 pdac

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 15:46

... In Formula One years, all that was a long time ago. I understand that he has brought money into Williams. I can't really see what else he brings. ...

 

The other things that he brings are:

 

- Experience

- The wisdom that comes with age

- (at least) Equal level of ability than the alternatives available

 

As long as he can drive to the same level as the other drivers that the team is interested in, he will be considered for the seat. The problem going forward, though, is that others may bring useful stuff such as youth or, worse still, more money.



#1148 pdac

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 16:02

Obviously this season is a write off in terms of results, but I am sure that they need to keep on pushing as hard as their resources will allow in order to attempt to keep whatever sponsors, drivers and key personnel with the team. I wish more information was forthcoming and we knew what the situation really was / is with Paddy. 

 

I understand the sentiment here, but would say this:

 

Sponsors:

What attracts the sponsors? If, as you say, the season is a write-off, is that attractive to sponsors? Obviously, they need to keep any contracts they've made to existing sponsors and it's most definitely worthwhile keeping existing sponsors and any potential new sponsors positive about future success. But right now ...?

 

Drivers:

To be very blunt about this, drivers are always available. Most drivers who are eligible to drive in F1 want a seat in an F1 car - any F1 car. Drivers can always be found. If you have a good car right now, then the better drivers will be attracted to you on the assumption that you will have a good car next year too. If this years car is no good, then the better drivers will only be more attracted to you if you can convince them that you have more to offer next year.

 

Key personnel:

This is the important group. Yes, you need to keep these people - you want to keep the best ones because they are the best. You may want to keep the others for stability and continuity. But you need to ensure that everyone is motivated and that means not getting them to polish a turd but, rather, getting them to work on a brighter future - both yours and theirs. I think it's important to acknowledge to all that, without apportioning any blame, this year they got it wrong, but you're going to regroup, take heed, learn from the mistakes and get it right next time.

 

With regard to knowing more - I think the curious side of all of us wants to know what's happening. But, I'm sure, Williams don't want to say anything until they have solid and positive news to present. I would take the silence as "we're still working on it". The last big news we heard was that Patrick Head is helping out. That is solid and positive news.



#1149 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 16:22

Season 2 on Netflix will include entire episode focused on Kubica complaining about his car being different :p  ;)  ;)


Not sure, but I am sure there will be whole episode about his comeback from his horific accident ;p Things like that sell.

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 25 April 2019 - 16:23.


#1150 Paco

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 16:52

I'd prefer they keep the Merc, forget this season, work on a brand new car for next season and come back fighting again. Personally, I would like, if it were possible, for them not to turn up at a race again until they get back to Europe and have a new car ready to try out - but I guess that's not possible with their FOM deal

 

They tried that this year and didn't much for them now did it...  at least McLaren worked hard last year to make a mends and fix some of their issues not giving up on their car..