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Williams: Drivers, management and other folks at Grove 2019


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#301 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 16:52

It's almost the definition of "racing incident". One of those things that just happens because the drivers are driving their cars from the cockpit and not from the helicopter that we see the replay view from.

 

Sure, Robert could have just waited for everyone to go through the corner first, but that's not really what a racing driver is there to do.



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#302 wingwalker

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 18:13

Looks to me like a definition of a racing incident, Gassly got bumped and as a result he bumped into Kubica. RK was quite unlucky to lose a front wing because of that but **** happens. 


edit: haha I actually wrote this without looking at the post above :D


Edited by wingwalker, 21 March 2019 - 18:15.


#303 TomNokoe

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 18:28

ROKiT have officially launched their product range

https://www.gsmarena...-news-36141.php

#304 TomNokoe

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 18:31

For somebody who keeps in touch with the tech world, let me tell you, their chances of success... slim.

#305 Gemini

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 18:45

 

 

Sure, Robert could have just waited for everyone to go through the corner first, but that's not really what a racing driver is there to do.

 

When your car is 2 sec off pace behind the closest competition you are not there as racing but test driver   ;)

 

I think we all have expressed our opinions.

 

So as the self claimed* Longest Time Kubica Supporter of this forum I recommend we move on.

 

 

*it is self claimed but for documented reasons  :p


Edited by Gemini, 21 March 2019 - 18:47.


#306 ANF

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 18:46

Listen, he didn't do anything stupid there, he wasn't squeezing anyone into the apex, he gave room for the drivers inside and did his line. Gasly moved to the right and the contact was made, that's it. Suggesting that it was clumsy is pretty ridiculous. If you want to know how 'clumsy' looks the search for some of Grosjean or Kvyat starts.

Let's agree to disagree.

#307 pdac

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 18:55

Listen, he didn't do anything stupid there, he wasn't squeezing anyone into the apex, he gave room for the drivers inside and did his line. Gasly moved to the right and the contact was made, that's it. Suggesting that it was clumsy is pretty ridiculous. If you want to know how 'clumsy' looks the search for some of Grosjean or Kvyat starts.

 

It's the old case of you can't win the race at the first corner but you can lose it.

 

Robert had no need to do what he did and be where he was. You say he didn't do anything stupid, but if you consider the entire context, I say he did. He left enough room if everyone did what they should but he did not leave enough room to protect his wing and preserve his race. 



#308 Paco

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 18:58

For somebody who keeps in touch with the tech world, let me tell you, their chances of success... slim.

IF that is true and you have it on a good word they can not succeed, what's the word on the street as to what is predominately wrong with the car as it doesn't necessarily seem aero>



#309 absinthedude

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 19:31

It's the old case of you can't win the race at the first corner but you can lose it.

 

Robert had no need to do what he did and be where he was. You say he didn't do anything stupid, but if you consider the entire context, I say he did. He left enough room if everyone did what they should but he did not leave enough room to protect his wing and preserve his race. 

 

What a load of tosh. Robert had every right to the track he was driving on, was driving a decent line through the corner and had given Gasley space. Robert had his front wheels ahead of Gasley's rear as they entered the apex. All perfectly within both the rules and accepted racing etiquette. Gasley slightly over-reacted to the McLaren to his right getting gnarly and drove into Kubica. 

 

Honestly....Kubica is a racing driver....that's what racing drivers do. Anyone on the grid would have done the same, and if not they probably have no place on the grid in the first place. Trying to pin the accident on Kubica is some of the worst confirmation bias I have ever seen. 



#310 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 19:34

IF that is true and you have it on a good word they can not succeed, what's the word on the street as to what is predominately wrong with the car as it doesn't necessarily seem aero>

 

Pretty sure that post was talking about Rokit.



#311 TomNokoe

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 20:08

Pretty sure that post was talking about Rokit.


:lol:

It was. The smartphone world is crazy. ROKiT are already irrelevant.

#312 pdac

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 20:17

What a load of tosh. Robert had every right to the track he was driving on, was driving a decent line through the corner and had given Gasley space. Robert had his front wheels ahead of Gasley's rear as they entered the apex. All perfectly within both the rules and accepted racing etiquette. Gasley slightly over-reacted to the McLaren to his right getting gnarly and drove into Kubica. 

 

Honestly....Kubica is a racing driver....that's what racing drivers do. Anyone on the grid would have done the same, and if not they probably have no place on the grid in the first place. Trying to pin the accident on Kubica is some of the worst confirmation bias I have ever seen. 

 

Not disputing any of this. But it's not about whether you are entitled to do something - it's about assessing how much you gain vs how much you risk. Yes, Robert is a racing driver, but the racing drivers that are the most successful are the ones who know what to do to get their best results.

 

I expected more from Robert. There was really very little to be gained there and everything to lose. The race is not about the first corner.

 

And I did not try to put the blame on Robert for the accident - I was simply pointing out that if he had done something different, his race would not have been compromised. You don't have to be to blame to lose out.



#313 GoldenEra

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 20:51



q1 onboard with robert. it's hard to be 100% sure, but it looks like his right hand is more fixed to the wheel than last year. just me? the bitrate is a bit low so the quality isn't the best.

#314 realracer200

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 20:59

I expected more from Robert. There was really very little to be gained there and everything to lose. The race is not about the first corner.

 

 

So what exactly did he lose? A victory? A podium? Points?



#315 tghik

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 21:27

Not disputing any of this. But it's not about whether you are entitled to do something - it's about assessing how much you gain vs how much you risk. Yes, Robert is a racing driver, but the racing drivers that are the most successful are the ones who know what to do to get their best results.

 

I expected more from Robert. There was really very little to be gained there and everything to lose. The race is not about the first corner.

 

And I did not try to put the blame on Robert for the accident - I was simply pointing out that if he had done something different, his race would not have been compromised. You don't have to be to blame to lose out.

Robert was on the outside before the apex having a regular racing line, giving enough space if Gasly was not pointing his car away which is not the direction to take the corner, not the racing line. In case there was no Mclaren, Gasly would be at fault, but because 3 cars were involved it's normally called a racing incident.



#316 pdac

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 23:46

Robert was on the outside before the apex having a regular racing line, giving enough space if Gasly was not pointing his car away which is not the direction to take the corner, not the racing line. In case there was no Mclaren, Gasly would be at fault, but because 3 cars were involved it's normally called a racing incident.

 

How many times do I have to say that I'm not attributing any blame or even saying Robert wasn't behaving like other, good, racing drivers would do - all I'm saying is that had he chosen not to challenge at that point then the outcome would have been better for him - perhaps what I'm saying is that he could have assessed that himself at the time (which is why I am disappointed).

 

What did he lose? Well, personally he lost nothing. For the team, he possibly finished where he was going to be anyway. But what the team lost was a front wing and the chance to gather data that might have been useful to help recover from the disaster that they are currently in. All for the minute possibility that he may have gained a place or two at the start.



#317 NikL

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 01:10

ROKiT have officially launched their product range

https://www.gsmarena...-news-36141.php

Williams have also launched their 2019 teamwear and not one piece of clothing has their title sponsor anywhere on it which is very strange. Either the ROKiT deal was done after the teamwear was made or they don't think the deal will last the season. :confused:



#318 tormave

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 02:25

For somebody who keeps in touch with the tech world, let me tell you, their chances of success... slim.


Indeed. Cell phone with life insurance for the US market? It will be interesting to which company ends up bankrupt first, Williams or their title sponsor. Based on their portfolio, Rokit looks like a scam trying gain an air of legitimacy through title sponsorship of the most desperate team in F1.

#319 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 03:14

Williams have also launched their 2019 teamwear and not one piece of clothing has their title sponsor anywhere on it which is very strange. Either the ROKiT deal was done after the teamwear was made or they don't think the deal will last the season. :confused:

How bizarre - they must have produced them before deal with Rokit meaning this is very last minute (desperate) deal... Which could explain problems with parts - they could have been related to money or rather lack of it.

Ahhh 16x World Champions what happened to you.

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 22 March 2019 - 03:21.


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#320 KevR

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 08:39

This RoKit company looks so dodgy, there is nothing appealing about their phones (except maybe the prices) and the smartphone market is already so abundant in similar companies of that kind anyway. The thing is, if you buy the official team gear, I think you'd rather have a plain one without temporary sponsors like that, so it's a good thing it's not there.

#321 Maxioos

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 08:52

Their start speed/acceleration seems to be okay. Does that mean their mechanical grib is on par? Or can you always stay with the pack at the start when starting at the back? Didn't check yet in comparison last year.

#322 AndyPerry

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 09:25

Robert was on the outside before the apex having a regular racing line, giving enough space if Gasly was not pointing his car away which is not the direction to take the corner, not the racing line. In case there was no Mclaren, Gasly would be at fault, but because 3 cars were involved it's normally called a racing incident.

 

Do you think Gasly would've jinked to the right if there was no McLaren there..? Jesus, how do you guys come up with this tripe..

 

Maybe, just maybe, if Kubica hadn't have pushed his line so long into a gap that was ALWAYS going to shrink (leading to the 1st corner) than he wouldn't have compromised his exit line and understeered by just enough to be vulnerable to any sort of miniscule movement of the car AHEAD.


Edited by AndyPerry, 22 March 2019 - 09:25.


#323 wingwalker

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 09:27

Their start speed/acceleration seems to be okay. Does that mean their mechanical grib is on par? Or can you always stay with the pack at the start when starting at the back? Didn't check yet in comparison last year.


It's interesting to compare GR and RK starts from the aerial show - initially RK makes up for a lot of ground but RS has a way better second phase. Different tires sure, but I don't think that explains it, I guess they were trying different options.



#324 Rinehart

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 10:14

I'm not sure if this should be in the Technical or Personal thread but... I'm increasingly certain that Williams are in a desperate position (as Peter Windsor said, the problems go much deeper than Lowe) and I think they're a lot closer to doomsday than many people realise;

 

- Lost the Stroll Money

- Lost the SMP racing/Russian money

- Loss of Martini, JCB, etc

- No repeat of the Bottas windfall

- 10th in the Constructors = huge loss of F1 income

- late Rokit deal

- car not ready

- car overweight

- no quick fix

- staff unrest

- a number of senior departures inc Lowe, Murray, Smedley, plus the "engineering cull" late last year

- some respectable stories in the media suggesting Williams future is bleak to dead

 

I'm sorry to put such a negative notion into this thread but I've seen these signs before and I honestly think this could be Williams last season unless something major happens on the investment front....



#325 RA2

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 10:43

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#326 Maxioos

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 11:02

I'm not sure if this should be in the Technical or Personal thread but... I'm increasingly certain that Williams are in a desperate position (as Peter Windsor said, the problems go much deeper than Lowe) and I think they're a lot closer to doomsday than many people realise;
 
- Lost the Stroll Money
- Lost the SMP racing/Russian money
- Loss of Martini, JCB, etc
- No repeat of the Bottas windfall
- 10th in the Constructors = huge loss of F1 income
- late Rokit deal
- car not ready
- car overweight
- no quick fix
- staff unrest
- a number of senior departures inc Lowe, Murray, Smedley, plus the "engineering cull" late last year
- some respectable stories in the media suggesting Williams future is bleak to dead
 
I'm sorry to put such a negative notion into this thread but I've seen these signs before and I honestly think this could be Williams last season unless something major happens on the investment front....


Imo, he lost his credibility to be a source about this matter with his sponsoring by Rich Energy and the history between Rich Energy and Williams.

I also didn't read yet a explanation how a partly public company could be in cashflow problems without making that public and informing their current and potential future holders of that stock. I think (quite sure) such info should by law be shared by a (partly) public company.

#327 AlexPrime

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 11:44

This RoKit company looks so dodgy, there is nothing appealing about their phones (except maybe the prices) and the smartphone market is already so abundant in similar companies of that kind anyway. The thing is, if you buy the official team gear, I think you'd rather have a plain one without temporary sponsors like that, so it's a good thing it's not there.

Their phones look nice and cheap actually and I wish them luck. But Chinese phones like Meizu have competitive prizes. I hope however, that Rokit does well and brings some much needed cash to Williams.



#328 SenorSjon

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 12:19

Imo, he lost his credibility to be a source about this matter with his sponsoring by Rich Energy and the history between Rich Energy and Williams.

I also didn't read yet a explanation how a partly public company could be in cashflow problems without making that public and informing their current and potential future holders of that stock. I think (quite sure) such info should by law be shared by a (partly) public company.

 

Really? Usually a company that deposits figures once/year can go bankrupt in the meantime. Happens all the time.

 

It isn't Saward posting this. 1+1 in Willliams case could well mean 2.



#329 TomNokoe

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 12:31

Their phones look nice and cheap actually and I wish them luck. But Chinese phones like Meizu have competitive prizes. I hope however, that Rokit does well and brings some much needed cash to Williams.

Impossible. Literally, impossible. I could list dozens of reputable and successful Chinese brands who are currently operating in the budget segment. Even larger players like Samsung are beginning to really target emerging markets.

 

RoKiT are nobody. It will not work. They will forever be known as "Williams 2019 title sponsor".



#330 Rinehart

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 12:41

Imo, he lost his credibility to be a source about this matter with his sponsoring by Rich Energy and the history between Rich Energy and Williams.

I also didn't read yet a explanation how a partly public company could be in cashflow problems without making that public and informing their current and potential future holders of that stock. I think (quite sure) such info should by law be shared by a (partly) public company.

The share price is constantly falling



#331 TheJammin

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 13:42

Since signing with Williams, ROKiT or however its stylised has seemed to appear in a few other places, they're pushing the advertising and sponsorship out. Saw them advertised on the boards during the Wales vs Ireland 6 Nations game and said to my wife "They sponsor Williams."

 

She didn't care, but I've seen them on a few other things as well now, so maybe there's a chance they're a decent long term sponsor to have, depending on how they survive. Must have some money to throw advertising all around.

 

Edit: they also have Rok Natural Energy drinks. Could we see Red Bull vs. Rich vs. Rok?! Haha


Edited by TheJammin, 22 March 2019 - 13:47.


#332 Izzyeviel

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 13:51

It's fitting. Williams last major sponsor being a burial & cremation company.



#333 sopa

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 13:54

I'm not sure if this should be in the Technical or Personal thread but... I'm increasingly certain that Williams are in a desperate position (as Peter Windsor said, the problems go much deeper than Lowe) and I think they're a lot closer to doomsday than many people realise;

 

- Lost the Stroll Money

- Lost the SMP racing/Russian money

- Loss of Martini, JCB, etc

- No repeat of the Bottas windfall

- 10th in the Constructors = huge loss of F1 income

- late Rokit deal

- car not ready

- car overweight

- no quick fix

- staff unrest

- a number of senior departures inc Lowe, Murray, Smedley, plus the "engineering cull" late last year

- some respectable stories in the media suggesting Williams future is bleak to dead

 

I'm sorry to put such a negative notion into this thread but I've seen these signs before and I honestly think this could be Williams last season unless something major happens on the investment front....

 

While Williams looks like has turned into "modern Minardi" - well off the pace and at least a second off the penultimate team - I think their chances to survive are better than this being their last season. I mean - F1 has always found a way to somehow keep at least 10 teams afloat. It's largely due to payout scheme, so 10th positioned team gets something too + they get something from the "collective" pot.

 

I think they survive. Minardi survived till they were bought. Manor survived till Haas arrived and pushed them outside top 10.



#334 Marklar

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 14:11

Since signing with Williams, ROKiT or however its stylised has seemed to appear in a few other places, they're pushing the advertising and sponsorship out. Saw them advertised on the boards during the Wales vs Ireland 6 Nations game and said to my wife "They sponsor Williams."

She didn't care, but I've seen them on a few other things as well now, so maybe there's a chance they're a decent long term sponsor to have, depending on how they survive. Must have some money to throw advertising all around.

Edit: they also have Rok Natural Energy drinks. Could we see Red Bull vs. Rich vs. Rok?! Haha

They've been even months before that jersey sponsor for the Houston Rockets.

Rokit is part of the Rok Brand, so I assume even if the mobile phone project fails Williams could in theory carry on to advertise a different product if this brand.

Edited by Marklar, 22 March 2019 - 14:11.


#335 HP

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 15:15

Can't see what either driver could have made different, if the intent was to have a race.

 

It's the old case of you can't win the race at the first corner but you can lose it.

 

Robert had no need to do what he did and be where he was. You say he didn't do anything stupid, but if you consider the entire context, I say he did. He left enough room if everyone did what they should but he did not leave enough room to protect his wing and preserve his race. 

Many a races have been won in the first corner.  Possibly even the Melbourne race.  Not all old sayings should be used to make a point.



#336 pdac

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 16:25

Can't see what either driver could have made different, if the intent was to have a race.

 

Many a races have been won in the first corner.  Possibly even the Melbourne race.  Not all old sayings should be used to make a point.

 

How many races have been won in the first corner by the guy who started last and was sitting in one of the worse cars on the grid? Like I say, you have to take the whole context into consideration before dismissing the issue as Robert doing what every driver would do.



#337 Anderis

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 16:30

While Williams looks like has turned into "modern Minardi" - well off the pace and at least a second off the penultimate team - I think their chances to survive are better than this being their last season. I mean - F1 has always found a way to somehow keep at least 10 teams afloat. It's largely due to payout scheme, so 10th positioned team gets something too + they get something from the "collective" pot.

 

I think they survive. Minardi survived till they were bought. Manor survived till Haas arrived and pushed them outside top 10.

Yeah, I don't believe Williams will disappear from the grid that soon, unless that is something the Williams family wants.

 

They still have some decent sponsorship deals and they are getting around $10m special payment from FOM atop significant money all top10 WCC teams get. They would be by far the best financed F1 team ever to go bust, that's why I think they won't. Someone will find a way to keep this team afloat in one form or another. They are clearly generating enough money to survive, the issue is just bad management.


Edited by Anderis, 22 March 2019 - 16:31.


#338 WilliamsF1Fan

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 16:44

They've been even months before that jersey sponsor for the Houston Rockets.

Rokit is part of the Rok Brand, so I assume even if the mobile phone project fails Williams could in theory carry on to advertise a different product if this brand.

 

They area also promoting the ABK Beer brand (part of their portfolio) on the FW42.  So definitely, they could use other elements of their business if the phones fail.



#339 Izzyeviel

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 18:08

Can't see what either driver could have made different, if the intent was to have a race.

 

Many a races have been won in the first corner.  Possibly even the Melbourne race.  Not all old sayings should be used to make a point.

 

You can't race with other cars if you're seconds slower than them. The best you can do is try and hang on and get lucky.



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#340 taran

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 21:52

Yeah, I don't believe Williams will disappear from the grid that soon, unless that is something the Williams family wants.

 

They still have some decent sponsorship deals and they are getting around $10m special payment from FOM atop significant money all top10 WCC teams get. They would be by far the best financed F1 team ever to go bust, that's why I think they won't. Someone will find a way to keep this team afloat in one form or another. They are clearly generating enough money to survive, the issue is just bad management.

 

There is money coming in but is that really enough? The team allegedly has a rather high overhead. They are often referred to as a team with top team overhead and mid-team income (and now a back of the grid income).

They aren't Force India which was a very lean operation. So maybe they have or will have difficulty paying staff as they divert more and more money to R&D to fix their car?



#341 RacingGreen

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 22:22

Yeah, I don't believe Williams will disappear from the grid that soon, unless that is something the Williams family wants.

 

They still have some decent sponsorship deals and they are getting around $10m special payment from FOM atop significant money all top10 WCC teams get. They would be by far the best financed F1 team ever to go bust, that's why I think they won't. Someone will find a way to keep this team afloat in one form or another. They are clearly generating enough money to survive, the issue is just bad management.

 

or is the issue is just no technical or engineering management at all. First no chief designer or performance head and now no chief technical officer. That sort of engineering and design team management is not what Claire does. The trouble is trying to replace the Wood, Smedley, Lowe positions when you are at the back of the grid. No established names are likely to be attracted  but I'm sure there is young talent out there (maybe even at Williams already) just waiting for the chance. 

 

As for disappearing from the grid I've seen teams come and teams go and while that is always sad it is also part of the sport. What I hate to see more than the team folding would be to see the team sold to a third party investor and the family (like the Brabham family did) lose control of their own name.



#342 Gary Davies

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 10:56

See this - https://autoweek.com...fear-and-terror

In my view, there’s a lot in this. Worth paying attention to.

I’ve never had a good impression of SFW’s management style and.... confirmed by a couple of current F1 jounalists. Claire is very much out of her depth.
This team needs a leader with strength, inspiration and the ability to say no to both Frank and the board.
Until then, it’s backofgridness and.... an increasing level of discomfort from Stuttgart about why their engines are in such an ineffective car.

#343 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 11:20

Claire doesn't really come across like that from what I've seen, but it's undoubtedly how the team was run under Sir Frank and, most notably, Patrick Head. I'd imagine the team culture would be very deeply ingrained from those days and won't change quickly.

 

But it does seem to be all the rage to ignore the successes the team has had under current management, while ignoring that their technical issues coincided with one particular technical director. That says more than the words of an ex-driver who was famous for having a moan.



#344 Gary Davies

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 11:34

It’s easy to pour scorn on Ralf; he is no doubt a controversial figure. What is harder, for some, is to attribute worth to his concerns about Williams and it structure and its modus operandi.

I’m sure my direct knowledge of the way it is in Grove is no more or less reliable than that of Payasyourace but I do respect the views of two FIA hardpass holders from whom I have recently heard.

#345 Marklar

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 12:27

Not going to discredit Ralf's opinion, especially as we've heard from others that Williams has issues to motivitate its staff and that sort of stuff and I rate his opinion, but he sounded in that interview generally a bit salty whenever Claire was mentioned and started to recall how she was already rather meh when she was working in the press department back in the day and this sort of stuff

(Which you could take both ways of course, maybe it even makes it clearer that Claire is not what she seems to be - or that Ralf's judgement may not be the most neutral one)

#346 tghik

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 15:38

Claire first of all needs to find key technical figures. At this moment this team functions basically without "black belt" designers. The fiasco of last year and the fear of Williams closing the doors because of financial troubles make it hard to find top guys, and this is first and foremost the challenge Claire has to face. It's still easy to find inexperienced young designers, which are enthusiastic, work extremely hard, but they always have tendency to go offf track and when it happens they go in circles without getting back on, unless they get lucky or have someone from the top shelf to show them the path back.


Edited by tghik, 23 March 2019 - 16:35.


#347 tormave

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 15:56

Why would any key techical figure join Williams today? At the moment every other team is on sound financial footing.

#348 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 16:17

They have build on brilliance of Head and then Newey. Now they are building on brilliance of Claire.

#349 BRG

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 19:08

Why would any key techical figure join Williams today? At the moment every other team is on sound financial footing.

Because they like the money?

Because there are no other F1 or equivalent openings available?

Because they want to make a name by turning round the fortunes of a hostoric team?

Because they relish the challenge?



#350 Clatter

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 20:28

They have build on brilliance of Head and then Newey. Now they are building on brilliance of Claire.

 


Did Frank design any of their cars?